BWCA Hybrid BWCA/Q trip? Boundary Waters Quetico Forum
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flynn
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01/04/2019 02:00PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Hey all! Doing some pontificating regarding yet another route... the one I have in mind is a hybrid 8d/7n trip, with 5 nights in Q and 2 nights in BWCA. PP > Emerald > Other Man > Saganagons (x2) > Cherry (x2) > Carp > PP.

Is this something you're allowed to do? Cross the border as you please during the time period of your permit? I assume that's how it works, same with an RABC permit.

If I am indeed allowed to stay a few nights in BWCA (obv having an overnight paddle permit for the entire duration of the trip) and then cross back into Q for the rest of the trip - what do you all think of that route? I would like to see Emerald, do some fishing on Saganagons with a layover day, and get back to Cherry to visit Lake of the Clouds on my layover day as well. Everything else is gravy!

Has anyone else done a hybrid BWCA/Q trip? I'd love to hear about the routes you've done if so!

Thanks!
 
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billconner
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01/04/2019 08:36PM  
I entered at Moose on a day permit, picked up a Q permit at PP, stayed on Q side along border to LLC, and then a couple nights in BWCAW on a from Canada permit as we exited via LIS/ep14.
AtwaterGA
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02/04/2019 07:38AM  
We have done several trips that included both BWCAW and Quetico. You will need both permits and fishing licenses from MN and Ontario. Also check back in with US Customs when you get out. It has been years as we now use the Quetico only. Things may have changed.
billconner
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02/04/2019 06:32PM  
The tricky part is picking up a Q permit afternoon before or day of entry, but with an RABC and both a valid Q and BWCA permit, not too hard to wander back and forth. Just have to pay for Q per night from first to last night in the Q, even if some between are in BWCAW.
GraniteCliffs
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02/04/2019 07:25PM  
One word of caution. At least what I believe to be true. If you leave the BW and re-enter you need to have two permits. If you leave twice you need three permits. The same is true with Quetico. If you leave, especially for a night, you are required to have a second Q permit.
Two things:
1. I think this is accurate since that is what both park rangers have told me at least in the past.
2. Not saying I have done this but unless you are observed crossing the border somewhere it would be tough to bust you if you did, in fact, wander back and forth from park to park.
flynn
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02/04/2019 08:23PM  
Hmm.. when you say "leave the BW", do you mean for an entire day? Surely the people with RABCs who cross the border while fishing border lakes and go back and forth across the lake don't need dozens of permits? I highly doubt anyone is actually getting entry permits for every single day of their trip based on where they might be for that night (if the route changes). That just sounds ridiculous, there must be a different way. Wonder if the USFS would be able to answer this for me.
02/04/2019 08:47PM  
For travel purposes, border lakes are basically "neutral" as long as you don't stray too far from the border. The treaty that delineated the border provides for travel through the border waters including the use of portages in either country.

For camping, you need a permit that begins on your first night and ends on your last. If you camp in another country or park, you need a new permit to return.

The solution is simple; amend your trip. Either just camp in the Q (what are you losing?) or camp in Quetico for five and then camp in the BW for two. Simple and straightforward.
billconner
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02/05/2019 07:05AM  
GraniteCliffs: "One word of caution. At least what I believe to be true. If you leave the BW and re-enter you need to have two permits. If you leave twice you need three permits. The same is true with Quetico. If you leave, especially for a night, you are required to have a second Q permit.
Two things:
1. I think this is accurate since that is what both park rangers have told me at least in the past.
2. Not saying I have done this but unless you are observed crossing the border somewhere it would be tough to bust you if you did, in fact, wander back and forth from park to park."


Last year at Copia the USFS rangers contradicted what a ranger had previously told me in writing, and said you could re-enter the BWCA from a Q trip on same permit. Who knows. I gave up trying to get a consistent answer and now have it officially both ways.

I am pretty sure sure you can leave and re-enter Q on same permit, but you have to pay for the nights. I was asking Q rangers at Copia about this and they confirmed hypothetically you could buy a permit for 365 days and come and go as you please for a year. And they would be thankful for the money since the permits set their budget. You only have to enter on first day on permit. I'm sure someone has a different interpretation.

GraniteCliffs
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02/05/2019 10:08PM  
Seems like Banks has the best idea. Get a "From Canada" BW permit with an entry date several days after your Q permit begins. Hang out in the Q for a number of days and then enter the BW for as long as you want.
flynn
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02/06/2019 09:10PM  
GraniteCliffs: "Seems like Banks has the best idea. Get a "From Canada" BW permit with an entry date several days after your Q permit begins. Hang out in the Q for a number of days and then enter the BW for as long as you want.
"


I think this is probably the most sensible (and legal) way to do things. I wasn't really thinking of doing Q/BW/Q/BW, at least I hadn't found any route that would require that (besides wanting to stay on some Q lakes for fishing for 2-3 nights maybe early or middle of the trip) so I'm not really concerned about doing that anyway. As I was thinking of that, I just realized I could do 2 of my desired trips in one long trip that I'm sure none of my friends would want to take the time off for:

* Outfit with Tuscarora Outfitters on Round Lake. You'll see why this is important.
* Get driven up to Sag and towed to Hook Island.
* Stay on Sidney, then Kawnipi for 4-5 nights, then Saganagons
* End the Q trip, begin BWCA trip
* Stay on Cherry for 2 nights, Ogish for 2 nights, Lil Sag for 2 nights, and Tuscarora for final night
* Paddle out from Tuscarora and end on Round Lake with no scheduled pickup time!!

Man that would be something... I don't know if I would necessarily WANT to merge both trips, as my first Q experience (which it would be) would be something to remember, and I almost worry I would have too much to remember if I spent another week in the BW after!!

GraniteCliffs
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02/06/2019 10:05PM  
Sounds like a good plan.
On the other hand, if it was me, I would simply spend all of your time in the Q. You already would have paid for your RABC and fishing license. As a result, the cost of spending all of your time in the Q vs adding the fee for the BW permit and going there would be nearly the same as spending all of your time in the Q. And, at least from my perspective, once I was in the Q with days to play with I would never leave to go back to the BW.
But different strokes for different folks.
flynn
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02/06/2019 10:53PM  
GraniteCliffs: "Sounds like a good plan.
On the other hand, if it was me, I would simply spend all of your time in the Q. You already would have paid for your RABC and fishing license. As a result, the cost of spending all of your time in the Q vs adding the fee for the BW permit and going there would be nearly the same as spending all of your time in the Q. And, at least from my perspective, once I was in the Q with days to play with I would never leave to go back to the BW.
But different strokes for different folks."


Well.... doubling time in Q is doubling the cost of Q, aside from the RABC and fishing license. That second week of Q would cost the same as the fishing license, or even more. The cost isn't really something that concerns me, as a week in the BWCA (and even Q) is still cheaper than flying somewhere for a week and staying in hotels and eating out. Much cheaper.

When you say you'd never leave the Q if you had more time, just to go back to the BWCA... why? Number of people? Fishing? Surely Quetico looks just the same as the BWCA.

I can think of 1 reason to come back: #2. :)
02/07/2019 07:59AM  
flynn: "
GraniteCliffs: "Sounds like a good plan.
On the other hand, if it was me, I would simply spend all of your time in the Q. You already would have paid for your RABC and fishing license. As a result, the cost of spending all of your time in the Q vs adding the fee for the BW permit and going there would be nearly the same as spending all of your time in the Q. And, at least from my perspective, once I was in the Q with days to play with I would never leave to go back to the BW.
But different strokes for different folks."



Well.... doubling time in Q is doubling the cost of Q, aside from the RABC and fishing license. That second week of Q would cost the same as the fishing license, or even more. The cost isn't really something that concerns me, as a week in the BWCA (and even Q) is still cheaper than flying somewhere for a week and staying in hotels and eating out. Much cheaper.


When you say you'd never leave the Q if you had more time, just to go back to the BWCA... why? Number of people? Fishing? Surely Quetico looks just the same as the BWCA.


I can think of 1 reason to come back: #2. :)"


Much fewer people. Although the Falls chain and southern Kawnipi can be busy.
GraniteCliffs
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02/07/2019 12:07PM  
Your original post suggested 5 nights in the Q and 2 in the BW. So if you stay in the Q 2 more nights the cost increase is less than $20 bucks total per person. Just seems simpler to do a Q trip only but obviously what I would choose may well not be what you have in mind. On the other hand, I have done the hybrid trip with Q and then the BW any number of times, but primarily just one night in the BW to allow for an early out the next morning.
flynn
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02/07/2019 12:21PM  
GraniteCliffs: "Your original post suggested 5 nights in the Q and 2 in the BW. So if you stay in the Q 2 more nights the cost increase is less than $20 bucks total per person. Just seems simpler to do a Q trip only but obviously what I would choose may well not be what you have in mind. On the other hand, I have done the hybrid trip with Q and then the BW any number of times, but primarily just one night in the BW to allow for an early out the next morning."


When I said it would double the cost, I was referring to doing the 2 week route with the first half up to Kawnipi then the second half down to Round. Of course only 2 days from BW to Q wouldn't double the trip. BTW, isn't it $20 or $25 per person per night? So it would be another $40 per person for 2 more nights?
GraniteCliffs
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02/07/2019 01:30PM  
Your cost is about $21 Canadian so less in US dollars, less your BW fee which you would not need.
flynn
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02/07/2019 01:47PM  
Got it. Again I'm not really concerned about the cost considering how cheap it is compared to a vacation with airfare and hotels. I don't think I will merge those 2 week-long trips together - but it would be awesome to do the Falls Chain/Kawnipi trip for 15 days, so more time can be spent on Kawnipi and Saganagons. We'd have to do some more exploring for sure, probably up into McKenzie lake for a day, Murdoch or Keewatin for a day, yeah.... maybe the guys will want to do that. Next year!

Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.
Carla
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05/02/2019 09:39AM  
My outfitter told me that once you leave the BWCA and go into Quetico that you cannot re-enter the US without getting a new permit. This did not seem reasonable since the BWCA permit specifically asks if you will be visiting Canada on the trip. So I called the Forest Service ranger and he told me that you can re-enter the BWCA after visiting Quetico as long as you did not leave the wilderness. I called another outfitter to confirm and they said the same thing as the ranger. So it seems there may not be a definitive answer on this. But it does not seem to be feasible to get two separate boundary water permits as you would have to paddle back to an outfitter to pick one up.
billconner
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05/02/2019 07:08PM  
See my post above regarding inconsistent interpretations but no, not back to outfitters. The "from Canada" entry permit is the only one you can get days or weeks in advance, even by mail.
Carla
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05/02/2019 07:59PM  
@BillConner. Thank you for the information. I was planning a hybrid trip myself. The outfitter did not tell me that the "from Canada" permit can be obtained in advance. This makes a lot more sense.
flynn
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05/02/2019 08:06PM  
I thought "From Canada" was only for Canadian citizens. What if you enter Q through the BW and then return home through the BW? Do you have to get a "From Canada" permit just to get to your exit point? That seems pointless and backwards and it conflicts with a lot of what I have read or heard. It seems NO ONE can point to an authoritative document that specifically explains all of this.

The stupid thing about all of that is is requires you to stick to a specific schedule. You have to know exactly which day you are going to enter Q and re-enter the BW, and if you deviate from this at all, due to weather (say you're forced to stay in Q for an extra day) you are technically breaking the law. I've since given up on the idea of doing a hybrid trip. If I visit Q, it will be for the entire duration of my trip. I'm not going out of my way to visit a ranger station to get a Q day pass just to visit Rebecca Falls and then go back to my BW campsite on Iron. That makes no sense to me and I doubt it makes sense to anyone else either.
billconner
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05/03/2019 06:20AM  
Flynn - see my mea culpa post above. I have emails from two different USFS officers both purporting to be in a position to speak for the USFS saying you do and do not need a from Canada permit to renter BWCAW after time in the Q. My take is you don't. If your trip begins and ends at entry points in the US, you are allowed to trip in the Q but you must stay in the wilderness. (I don't know what happens in adjacent crown lands - too complicated.)

If your trip in the wilderness begins in Canada, regardless of citizenship, and you enter the BWCAW across the international border, the from Canada is for you.

(Overnight in all segments - if just day paddle, different.)

If you accept the reasoning of a poster in the thread on east side entry and corridor crossings, based on congressional action, then you can't sojourn in the Q.

I'd suggest if you are stopped by a Ranger in the BWCAW and your permit appears valid, even if they saw you come out of Canada, you won't be cited.

05/03/2019 10:52AM  
One more data point. Last year we did a trip where we entered the BWCA at Poplar, took three days getting to Cache Bay, spent four days in the Q, reentered the BWCA at Crooked Lake, and spent two days getting back to Mudro. I got two BWCA permits - EP 49 and "From Canada" - as well as the Q permit. of course we had a RABC too, and our passport cards.

At the Grand Marais ranger station they printed our EP 49 permit using normal methods. They hand-wrote our "From Canada" permit because it was a week in advance and the computer system can't generate them that far in advance, or at least they didn't know how to do so. It was dated for the day we planned to reenter the BWCA from Quetico.

I suspect that you could get by without the "From Canada" permit for the days when you reenter the BWCA, but I'll note that all the agents I've ever spoken to at both Kawishiwi and Grand Marais stations have said that if you plan to paddle straight to the Q through the BWCA without spending the night in the BWCA, you need a day permit for the day in, plus you need a day permit for the day out, and you need to be sure to remember to grab one to take with you.

Given how much you're spending on the Q permit, the cost of an additional BWCA permit is pretty cheap insurance against a fine. I figured that if for some reason we reentered the BWCA a day earlier or later than we'd anticipated, I'd just not worry about it; but officially *having* the "From Canada" permit demonstrated that we were trying to follow the stricter interpretation of the rules, which would have to help if we still ended up somehow violating it.

Of course, nobody ever checked any of our permits.
05/03/2019 12:03PM  
Day paddle permits (or the from Canada permit) can be filled in by hand, without charge at the entry point kiosk. When you fill in your day paddle permit fill in another "from Canada" permit to carry with you.
Carla
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05/03/2019 12:53PM  
@BillConner, Can you tell me how to get the "from Canada" permit in advance? My outfitter is unaware of this option and I want to be safe and get one. The rules on the confirmation from Recreation.gov say to get it a day ahead just like the other BW permits. If I can get it by mail or some other means, that would save me a lot of headache.
05/03/2019 05:43PM  
I reserved my "From Canada" beforehand just like a regular permit, I'm pretty sure it's EP 71 but in the new system that doesn't matter anyway - it's called "From Canada".

What Banksiana describes is appropriate for a day permit, but an overnight "From Canada" permit is just like any other overnight permit - in the quota season you have to pay for it ahead of time and it's dependent on availability; there's only three per day. I don't think it hits quota very much though - it's an unusual permit.

I'm not confident that an outfitter could issue one now since it pretty much always requires a hand-written permit. I always get my permits at the ranger stations anymore anyway since I don't rent any gear, and the rangers can do just about everything, including hand-writing a permit for a date several days in the future. I kind of enjoy going to the ranger stations.
billconner
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05/03/2019 05:57PM  
Call the forest service main office in Duluth and ask.
flynn
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05/03/2019 06:24PM  
I don't intend to visit ranger stations as I try to maximize trip time by driving up to Ely on the night before a trip, staying at a bunkhouse, and then entering the BW as early as possible. I'm not taking a full day off just to drive up to Ely and pick up a permit at a ranger station, nor am I going to waste an hour or two driving to a ranger station in the morning (waiting for them to open too) to pick up a permit.

It seems like you'll get a different answer every time you ask, so you might as well find as much official documentation as you can, summarize it with links to where you found it, print off a sheet to bring with you, get an extra permit if needed ("From Canada", lol, I have to PAY to come back when I already paid to go in?), and be prepared to explain it to a ranger if you are stopped in the wilderness.

Since you are legally allowed to travel on the Canadian side of the border (travel ONLY) and it is not stipulated that you must obtain return permits if you go an inch over the border, I would say you are safe NOT obtaining a "From Canada" permit if you have to cross the border for travel. I would also ask forgiveness if a ranger told me I needed a "From Canada" permit after staying in Q and returning home to where I entered the BW in the first place (and have a valid entry permit for). Again... it seems like you will get a different answer every time, so the best you can do is over-interpret (without over-hassling yourself with "From Canada" permits for every single day you MIGHT cross the border) and ask for forgiveness if a particular ranger has a different interpretation. Of course you would show humility in such a scenario, not act like you are correct, as long as you don't want a fine or legal action, that is.
GraniteCliffs
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05/03/2019 08:52PM  
Flynn, I really don't think it is that complicated. Many of us do it all the time.
In my case if I am going to do a hybrid trip I dumb it down.
I pull a from Canada permit for the date I plan to enter the BW from the Q. I get that in advance.
I stay on Moose and get a tow to PP by 7 am. No permit needed as the outfitter/tow operator does it.
I get my Q permit at PP, reserved online in advance and off we go to the Q with the two permits in hand. If I happen to run along the border at any point on the trip I tend to stay toward the middle much of the time, except portaging.
With one memorable exception of two days of wicked wind I have always crossed back into the BW on the date I anticipated.
I just get a day pass to fill out if I am going to be paddling through the BW but not camping on my return.
Really, if you want to do a hybrid trip, just do it.
billconner
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05/04/2019 06:06AM  
I think you spent more time rationalizing than it might take to get a form Canada permit way in advance. Certainly waste more time if you have to go through it with a ranger, or worse. I'm with GC - easy enough to follow the rules.
05/05/2019 09:37AM  
billconner: "I think you spent more time rationalizing than it might take to get a form Canada permit way in advance. Certainly waste more time if you have to go through it with a ranger, or worse. I'm with GC - easy enough to follow the rules."

Agreed. It really wasn't difficult, and not that expensive.
Carla
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05/05/2019 02:41PM  
I called the ranger station after obtaining my "From Canada" permit. The lady was bery helpful. I told her what I was doing and she agreed that getting the from Canada permit was the way to do it. She said that you can only get the "from Canada" permit in advance if you get it from a Ranger station. You can pick it up 14 days in advance. So I'll be able to pick it up days ahead of time and will drive right past two ranger stations on my way in from Minneapolis so it will be super easy. It would be nice if this information was provided on the Forest Service website, but thanks to you helpful folks, I was able to get the permit I needed and am totally legit.
flynn
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05/05/2019 03:06PM  
Carla: "I called the ranger station after obtaining my "From Canada" permit. The lady was bery helpful. I told her what I was doing and she agreed that getting the from Canada permit was the way to do it. She said that you can only get the "from Canada" permit in advance if you get it from a Ranger station. You can pick it up 14 days in advance. So I'll be able to pick it up days ahead of time and will drive right past two ranger stations on my way in from Minneapolis so it will be super easy. It would be nice if this information was provided on the Forest Service website, but thanks to you helpful folks, I was able to get the permit I needed and am totally legit. "

Yet another inconvenience - since I drive up after work on Fridays and would be at a ranger station at 11pm, this does not work for me unless I waste valuable time in the morning going back to the station and waiting for them to open.
flynn
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05/05/2019 03:07PM  
GraniteCliffs: "Flynn, I really don't think it is that complicated. Many of us do it all the time.
In my case if I am going to do a hybrid trip I dumb it down.
I pull a from Canada permit for the date I plan to enter the BW from the Q. I get that in advance.
I stay on Moose and get a tow to PP by 7 am. No permit needed as the outfitter/tow operator does it.
I get my Q permit at PP, reserved online in advance and off we go to the Q with the two permits in hand. If I happen to run along the border at any point on the trip I tend to stay toward the middle much of the time, except portaging.
With one memorable exception of two days of wicked wind I have always crossed back into the BW on the date I anticipated.
I just get a day pass to fill out if I am going to be paddling through the BW but not camping on my return.
Really, if you want to do a hybrid trip, just do it.
"


This works if you are only crossing the border once. If you wanted to go back and forth, like stay a night on Carp on the BW side, then Emerald on Q side, then Other Man, then Cherry, then Knife on Q side, and then exiting on Moose, you're crossing the border multiple times. You might ask "why would you even do that" but the whole point of this thread was to explore the option of crossing the border at will. I was also thinking of tripping around the LLC/Iron/Crooked area, where I might want to stay on LLC, Argo, Iron, Crooked, maybe McAree, whatever... I would just have to plan to be on the BW for one part, and Q for the other. It's just annoying that you can't cross at will and you have to know exactly which days you plan to do what, instead of playing it by ear. If you are having to figure out exact days, and visit a Q ranger station at the very beginning of your trip REGARDLESS of when you plan to cross, you might as well just do a Q trip. I can't tell you which days I might want to cross the border on Crooked or Iron to fish the other side of the lake, so I need to get day passes for every single day of my trip? Might as well just do a Q trip.

I'm sure it can be done, but the trip ideas I had thought of just won't work, it seems. That's OK. If I have to swap hooks on all of my lures to barbless ones, just in case I wanted to fish Q (and had the day permits and everything), I might as well stick to the Q because I'm at a disadvantage compared to having barbs in the BW. Oh well.

Thanks to everyone for helping! Though I would say this issue seems about as clear as mud.
cburton103
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05/05/2019 10:16PM  
Flynn, keep in mind the barbless hooks in the Q only applies to the hooks attached to your current lure on your line. So even if you legally cross into the Q to fish you only have to crimp the lures you actually use, not the rest of the lures in your tackle box.
billconner
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05/06/2019 05:39AM  
flynn: "
Carla: "I called the ranger station after obtaining my "From Canada" permit. The lady was bery helpful. I told her what I was doing and she agreed that getting the from Canada permit was the way to do it. She said that you can only get the "from Canada" permit in advance if you get it from a Ranger station. You can pick it up 14 days in advance. So I'll be able to pick it up days ahead of time and will drive right past two ranger stations on my way in from Minneapolis so it will be super easy. It would be nice if this information was provided on the Forest Service website, but thanks to you helpful folks, I was able to get the permit I needed and am totally legit. "

Yet another inconvenience - since I drive up after work on Fridays and would be at a ranger station at 11pm, this does not work for me unless I waste valuable time in the morning going back to the station and waiting for them to open."


More reason not to listen to rangers. Those at Canoecopia a few years back said call office and get by mail. Oh well.
 
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