An interesting video.

I swear that's Ben Cardelli (NCTRY) at 7:48 tying on a canoe.

Nice little Video

I’m pretty sure that’s Nibimocs paddling his cedar strip canoe and portaging with his dog near the end of the video. Ive read many books about the legislative process to protect the BW and I’m grateful that it was done as it seemed like the odds were insurmountable at times.

Tony

Nice video with good history background. And the fact that VNO canoes are filmed in several places made me smile! :-)

Thumbs-Up

Having lost the family farm due to the wild rivers act a lot like the Boundary waters
act I fully understand the lost to the people who had their land forcibly taken from
them.

So others can play on it.

Unless you have had it done to you have no clue.

Now they are trying to force others to give up their living by trying to enforce the wilderness standards out side the BWCA by using the catch phase the BWCA water shed.

Taking more then ever was granted by the 78 law.

Give them a inch and they want a mile.

No one ever said that doing the right thing was always fun or easy.

Like the video said, victories in environmental politics are temporary; losses are forever.

Regulatory changes, i.e. politics, make all of us, in every industry, change the way we do business all the time. No one's case is necessarily unique in that regard.

Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?

Othello: "...
Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?"

brilliant

Very nice, thanks for posting.

Othello: ".

Like the video said, victories in environmental politics are temporary; losses are forever.
"

Complete BS there have been a lot of environmental loses that the earth has completely recover from

A prime example is Isle Royal NP the whole island was striped by mining and logging for decades. Centuries if you count the natives mining it. Look at it now.

A lot of the BWCA was mined and logged and lived on. Look at it now.

The Exon Valdez oil spill not a trace any more, the gulf oil spill not a trace.

Millions and millions of gallons of oil spilled during WWII whole islands blown up and deforested look at them now grown back up

Northern Wisconsin mostly logged off now mostly grown back with defiantly more wooded area then the last 150 years.

An extremely interesting video. I especially liked seeing the old brochures from Snowbank Lodge and Deer Trail Lodge, 2 places I stayed as a kid in the '70s. And I remember well the bitterness of the debate at the time. The resort owners wanted no part of the wilderness designation, as many rightly predicted that it would put them out of business. On the other hand, the need for more wilderness was obvious to me even then; anyone who has seen how much better the fishing is in "paddle only" lakes would probably concur. I can honestly say that on this issue I sympathize with both sides. And I fear that as our population grows these kinds of disputes will only get worse.

Othello: "No one ever said that doing the right thing was always fun or easy.
Like the video said, victories in environmental politics are temporary; losses are forever.
Regulatory changes, i.e. politics, make all of us, in every industry, change the way we do business all the time. No one's case is necessarily unique in that regard.
Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?"

Interesting point, Othello.
Any chance the land your house or the building you live in was forcibly taken from Native Americans??
If so, would you feel the same way when the Feds came by and said you need to leave, because others feel the usage of your land will be better served by them???? :)

The victories are temporary and the loses are forever. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Some of the loses that are forever are Fourmile portage, snowmobiles, motorboats, resorts, cabins, planes,. Some of the victories the turned out to be temporary Fourmile portage, snowmobiles, motorboats, etc...… These are the things that have affected the people around me. Most of my friends and family that use the bwca do so mostly for fishing. Along with just relaxing. We still get by fishing without motors. It is sad to see promises broken or peoples words turned into lies.

Now people are trying to take the bwca rules to cover any land in the Superior National Forest. If this happens it will turn people like Hubert Humphreys words into lies. And even worst being a lair means nothing to some people. Then there are people like Dayton who deliberately lied to get what they want. I don't want to be on the side of people like that. I enjoyed the video.

Read the Jackpine jim thread if you think the bwca is a true wilderness area. A guy hunting on a logging road in a logged out area and runs into a guy with a pma permit. JIM P.

I really enjoyed that history lesson. Thanks for sharing the link.

I just happened to watch a video yesterday on YouTube. Notice any familiar scenes?

Great short video to help shed light on the history and policy of the BWCAW.

While some here are correct saying the environment is resilient and can restore itself, this is true, but in what duration? A tailings dam breech from a copper ore-sulfide mine takes approximately 500 years to filter out. That is 15+ generations from now, worth the risk?

I moved to the Carolinas a few years ago and here we are dealing with coal ash dam wall breeches at every "historic" rainfall event. It certainly has real effects in our waterways, I live within 1 mile of the most endangered riverway in the United States, not the most polluted, but because of the ongoing risk of what sits alongside it in coal ash ponds and poor development planning.

riverrunner: "

Othello: ".


Like the video said, victories in environmental politics are temporary; losses are forever.
"

Complete BS there have been a lot of environmental loses that the earth has completely recover from


A prime example is Isle Royal NP the whole island was striped by mining and logging for decades. Centuries if you count the natives mining it. Look at it now.


A lot of the BWCA was mined and logged and lived on. Look at it now.


The Exon Valdez oil spill not a trace any more, the gulf oil spill not a trace.


Millions and millions of gallons of oil spilled during WWII whole islands blown up and deforested look at them now grown back up


Northern Wisconsin mostly logged off now mostly grown back with defiantly more wooded area then the last 150 years."

Riverrunner, I must quibble with "completely recover" assertion. A tree is made of nutrients from the soil. When you cut and remove a tree, you're hauling away the nutrients from that soil, leaving the land less fertile, much as would happen if you farmed and never fertilized.

Additionally, an old growth forest is more diverse than a logged forest. It even has more fauna, for a new growth forest is a scrum, a brawl for light, that doesn't permit the passage of large mammals and birds.

They also look different, with the canopy dominating, thus leaving the forest floor pretty open. See here.

The Great Outdoors: "

Othello: "No one ever said that doing the right thing was always fun or easy.
Like the video said, victories in environmental politics are temporary; losses are forever.
Regulatory changes, i.e. politics, make all of us, in every industry, change the way we do business all the time. No one's case is necessarily unique in that regard.
Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?"

Interesting point, Othello.
Any chance the land your house or the building you live in was forcibly taken from Native Americans??
If so, would you feel the same way when the Feds came by and said you need to leave, because others feel the usage of your land will be better served by them???? :)"

Which continues to happen... even before our ancestors came here the native Americans fought and killed each other over land. I feel for the young people in this country, they are going to have so many regulations it’ll be impossible to just enjoy. Miss Molly states the argument that you take away nutrients by logging. Most of which never leave in the form of branches and debris... and by the time that log is decayed to where it did go back to the earth in the form described new growth is there... forest fires do way more to take away the nutrients than logging and that is a natural occurrence accepted by that same thought... old growth is nice we all agree. But sensible forest management usually maintains a certain amount of that. I like the idea of the Bwca, but I do struggle to think about what was done to create the idea and sort of a lie it is a true wilderness. Many of us live in rural areas... what if we were herded into the big cities and they made all of northern Minnesota or the area where Miss Molly lives a “wilderness”. People move from the cities to rural areas where people have maintained a pretty good forest. But these new residents seem to know better even than the actual land people. I stay out of stuff like this best I can. But some arguments are hard to agree with. I’ve watched forests around me regenerate themselves just fine. Trees have a lifespan... when logged the total tree is not taken. Many times new growth produces more in the way of a lot of things old growth does not provide. Blueberries... haha!

riverrunner: "So others can play on it."

I'm sorry that you think this is the only/primary reason for wilderness preservation. This isn't me being passive-aggressive. I'm genuinely sorry that your understanding and perception of these issues is what you say. While I suspect that you, like many, are too set in your ways to be swayed by me, I will have to pick on one thing you said.

riverrunner: "Now they are trying to force others to give up their living by trying to enforce the wilderness standards out side the BWCA by using the catch phase the BWCA water shed."

No one is being forced to give-up their living. These mines don't exist yet, therefore denying their establishment costs no one their existing job. And watershed isn't a catch phrase. It's a very real, far-reaching geological thing. Denial of a copper-sulfide mine adjacent to the BWCA is not the same thing as the government taking more land than was granted by the law. It's them protecting the land granted to them by the law which some might go so far as to say is their legal mandate. Denial of a copper-sulfide mine adjacent to the BWCA is not denial of all development adjacent to the BWCA; it's just denial of a very specific threat to protected land and water.

From science.howstuffworks.com: "Even healthy forests contain dead trees and decaying plant matter; when a fire turns them to ashes, nutrients return to the soil instead of remaining captive in old vegetation."

So, regarding fertility, fire not bad. Fire good.

As far as my patch of Maine being declared a wilderness, if I were financially compensated, I'd be okay, Ben. I like to mosey, so I'd just ease on down the road, which I'll do one day anyway, because I don't want to live all my life in one place. However, I understand that some people like to plunge deep roots into one place. Some people are trees. Some of us are tumbleweeds.

Great Video. The Mining industry has been dying since the 1980s. People have adapted. They moved away. This is the evolution of mining towns all over the country. Towns like Biwabik where 2 to 3 times their current population just 30 years ago. Every single little town in the Range is there because of the mines. It was a huge far reaching industry in it's time. To think that one mine is going to boost the range economy to make a significant difference is foolish. The tourist industry employs a lot of people. Those peoples livelihood will be greatly effected in the event of even a small disaster.

The Great Outdoors: "Interesting point, Othello.
Any chance the land your house or the building you live in was forcibly taken from Native Americans??
If so, would you feel the same way when the Feds came by and said you need to leave, because others feel the usage of your land will be better served by them???? :)"

I live in MN, so I am aware that is the case. I simply didn't feel that the strong statements made were affording that same consideration.

Plenty of salient points on the other issues made by others, specifically regarding water sheds and wilderness preservation, so no need to rehash there.

As to the question regarding my little patch of MN, I tend to agree with missmolly's perspective.

is it possible for someone to post something on here without someone else getting butthurt about it? possibly just say, nice video...good information..?....or if you dont agree at all, just dont say anything at all? come on guys/gals....sound like a bunch of whiny babies...

mjmkjun: "

Othello: "...
Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?"

brilliant"

+1 absolutely brilliant

A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong if it tends otherwise.
Aldo Leopold.

Very true words

mjmkjun: "

Othello: "...
Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?"

brilliant"

No chance.
Native Americans didn't practice land ownership, as we define it.

mjmkjun: "

Othello: "...
Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?"

brilliant"

Talk is cheap. I am Indian not 100%, however my Great Grand Father was 100% Indian. Or as you say Native American, I can't believe I said that. Native American sounds funny. Care to give your land back to the Indians? I say give All the land back to the Indians. I am only half serious.


Again great video.

Stumpy: "

mjmkjun: "

Othello: "...
Empathy is a human response, and I want to be empathetic, but the way you lobbed it out there, I have to ask: Any chance that family farm was on...land that was forcibly taken from Native Americans?"

brilliant"

No chance.
Native Americans didn't practice land ownership, as we define it."

oh..that makes everything cake and balloons then. I would love to sit down around a campfire with all of you and discuss anything..but I can not do it on the internet. It's burning me out.

Thanks for sharing the video.

Looking how difficult it was and the obvious pain still felt by some imagine what it is like in India right now. Let's hope this is not being done to clear the way for mining or loging.
India orders 'staggering' eviction of 1 million indigenous people

Nice video thanks for sharing.

Mjmkjum, I enjoyed the video you linked too as well.

Thanks to both of you.

T

The word 'watershed' and people who don't like it being used as a buffer reminds me of the decades old 3M water pollution in the twin cities. The 3M water pollution plumes that are occurring mirror the issues that will arise if Twin Metals gets their sulfide mine. Water moves underground as much as above ground, thus the need for watershed protection.

3M water pollution plume

The good news though, is that when water pollution occurs in the BWCAfrom the sulfide mine tailings, it won't affect drinking water like a municipality. Canoeists can just bring water from elsewhere and stay away from the polluted lakes.

ellahallely: "I am Indian not 100%, however my Great Grand Father was 100% Indian. Or as you say Native American, I can't believe I said that. Native American sounds funny.



"

I'll confess to being a product of society, hence using the term that has been in use for the last half century, but I'm up for an 'always learning' moment. Would Indigenous have been better? Or maybe I should have just specified Dakota Sioux. In any case, I find it odd and ironic that the apparently preferred term is one that originated with a lost and confused terrorist. Sincerely, though, I'd like to better understand.

tumblehome: "The good news though, is that when water pollution occurs in the BWCAfrom the sulfide mine tailings, it won't affect drinking water like a municipality. Canoeists can just bring water from elsewhere and stay away from the polluted lakes."

One good tongue-in-cheek deserves another...Perhaps we can expand the number of motor permits and use them all to bring in drinking water for the wildlife.

Orthello my whole life people have used the term Indian and I think most are okay with that term. Most know the story of the name with Columbus and India. I am Pima and okay with that or Indian, Native, Native Americian, but I prefer Jim.

I guess everyone is an individual and I was referring to how I feel, not the next guy. Again I am only part Indian, maybe someone with more Indian blood than me could express their opinion. I would like to think bwca.com is a diverse group of people. Jim P.

Up here in Ely Anishinaabe is often used by the "Indian" members here. It is the corrected name for the "Native" people in this area.

That being said, I just thought of something. Is there a word that all of the tribes/members of the original people living on this continent would have used to describe everyone, not a certain group?

Sort of like in Europe there are Italians, Greeks, Polish, etcetera but they are all sort of termed "Europeans".

Somehow I think I have heard it before, but since this post went off in this direction, thought I'd ask.

ellahallely: "The victories are temporary and the loses are forever. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Some of the loses that are forever are Fourmile portage, snowmobiles, motorboats, resorts, cabins, planes,. Some of the victories the turned out to be temporary Fourmile portage, snowmobiles, motorboats, etc...… These are the things that have affected the people around me. Most of my friends and family that use the bwca do so mostly for fishing. Along with just relaxing. We still get by fishing without motors. It is sad to see promises broken or peoples words turned into lies.

Now people are trying to take the bwca rules to cover any land in the Superior National Forest. If this happens it will turn people like Hubert Humphreys words into lies. And even worst being a lair means nothing to some people. Then there are people like Dayton who deliberately lied to get what they want. I don't want to be on the side of people like that. I enjoyed the video.

Read the Jackpine jim thread if you think the bwca is a true wilderness area. A guy hunting on a logging road in a logged out area and runs into a guy with a pma permit. JIM P."

Hope you didn't vote for our current president... 'cause that fat cat lies like a rug.

ellahallely, if you were the Grand Poobah of the BWWCA and could make any changes you wanted, what would you do?

Sadly lies by the Presidents seem all to common. I would have to go back at least 5 presidents to find one that didn't lie big time. I don't feel congress or the senate are much better.

missmolly: "ellahallely, if you were the Grand Poobah of the BWWCA and could make any changes you wanted, what would you do? "

I am okay it with the way it is. But we all know each year brings new lawsuits to change things. Look at what the feds did to TGO busted up his computers and took thousands of dollars of property. I would be okay with 4 mile truck portage reopening. It would be nice if the disabled Veterans could use the bwca. There is a Veterans camp on Fall Lake. Thanks for asking!

ellahallely: "Othello my whole life people have used the term Indian and I think most are okay with that term. Most know the story of the name with Columbus and India. I am Pima and okay with that or Indian, Native, Native Americian, but I prefer Jim.


I guess everyone is an individual and I was referring to how I feel, not the next guy. Again I am only part Indian, maybe someone with more Indian blood than me could express their opinion. I would like to think bwca.com is a diverse group of people. Jim P."

Much appreciated, Jim. I concur that we're all individuals, yet united by a love and respect of this world, and the little slice of it that draws us here to this forum.

VoyageurNorth: "Up here in Ely Anishinaabe is often used by the "Indian" members here. It is the corrected name for the "Native" people in this area.


That being said, I just thought of something. Is there a word that all of the tribes/members of the original people living on this continent would have used to describe everyone, not a certain group?


Sort of like in Europe there are Italians, Greeks, Polish, etcetera but they are all sort of termed "Europeans".


Somehow I think I have heard it before, but since this post went off in this direction, thought I'd ask.
"

are you thinking of First Nations? or a word that Natives would have used to describe whites and other interlopers?

riverrunner: "Having lost the family farm due to the wild rivers act a lot like the Boundary waters
act I fully understand the lost to the people who had their land forcibly taken from
them.


So others can play on it.


Unless you have had it done to you have no clue.


Now they are trying to force others to give up their living by trying to enforce the wilderness standards out side the BWCA by using the catch phase the BWCA water shed.


Taking more then ever was granted by the 78 law.

Give them a inch and they want a mile."

Hello, Respectively asking, what do you mean that they are trying to force others to give up their living? I don't think the wilderness laws apply outside at all?

ellahallely: "

missmolly: "ellahallely, if you were the Grand Poobah of the BWWCA and could make any changes you wanted, what would you do? "

I am okay it with the way it is. But we all know each year brings new lawsuits to change things. Look at what the feds did to TGO busted up his computers and took thousands of dollars of property. I would be okay with 4 mile truck portage reopening. It would be nice if the disabled Veterans could use the bwca. There is a Veterans camp on Fall Lake. Thanks for asking!"

Well, thanks for answering! I like your changes.

Mocha: "

VoyageurNorth: "Up here in Ely Anishinaabe is often used by the "Indian" members here. It is the corrected name for the "Native" people in this area.



That being said, I just thought of something. Is there a word that all of the tribes/members of the original people living on this continent would have used to describe everyone, not a certain group?


Sort of like in Europe there are Italians, Greeks, Polish, etcetera but they are all sort of termed "Europeans".


Somehow I think I have heard it before, but since this post went off in this direction, thought I'd ask.
"

are you thinking of First Nations? or a word that Natives would have used to describe whites and other interlopers?"

A word that would be used to describe all the First Nations. Would they say they are First Nation no matter where on the continent? So, would someone ask them, "are you First Nation?" instead of Indian, Native American, etcetera?

Don't mean to be a smart aleck, just one of those things I really never knew. I call myself an American but that title doesn't mean all North American, South American, Central American. It is a United States title, I guess?

Interesting video thanks

Cc26: "is it possible for someone to post something on here without someone else getting butthurt about it? possibly just say, nice video...good information..?....or if you dont agree at all, just dont say anything at all? come on guys/gals....sound like a bunch of whiny babies..."

so only the people that agree should be allowed to say anything?
I respectfully disagree :)