I am an electric vehicle owner and have taken my EV on a few BWCA trips from the metro. The charging options used to be terrible to non-existent. Things are much better now, mostly along 61. With Chevy's Bolt and Tesla's Model 3, I expect to see a lot more EV's parked at entry points in the coming years. While the current charging options are nice, you still need to sort of plan a stop in Duluth/Hinckely/Lutsen that can be hard if you need to blitz home down 35.

If your car could charge while you're on out your trip, and you arrive back with a full battery, things just got a lot more convenient.

So....my question/thought/request is for people who own electrified property near EP's. By offering just a normal household outlet and no additional equipment, EV use could be supported, and it could also be a little money maker for the property owner.

There is a website/app, Plugshare.com, that would allow the outlet to be listed. The owner can set all of the parameters for use and restrict access, use, terms, all of that.

Charging a long range EV from empty to full costs about $8.50 (70kwh at $.12/kwh).

If you own electrified property near an EP, or know someone that does, please give this some consideration.

Please let me know if I have left out anything or if there are questions.

Thanks a lot.

I could entertain that idea...but it would be considerably higher than $.12 KWH.
Your forgetting all the surcharges and the likes...

Yes, $.12/kWh is the national average I have read. I don't know if that includes base fees, taxes, etc. Regardless, the property owner could just list their terms and people can accept them or not. It could be easier to just say, $25, for example, so there doesn't need to be a ton of communication, accounting, etc.

Thanks for considering

Just curious but it seems most entry points with landowners with electricity near, also have outfitters near. Have you tried outfitters and do they allow you to charge you vehicle?

The outfitter idea is a great one. I have not explored that.

I did help to facilitate the chargers at Adventure Inn and Bearskin Lodge, but yeah I should contact outfitters too.

I suspect the outfitters usually have a utility type area, they could handle a few cars at a time, I'd bet they are game for any revenue streams they can find.

Yuck

This is interesting. I have always wondered about charging electric cars on road trips. Outfitters seems like a good source.

How many hours can you drive once fully charged?

Since the vast majority of EPs do not have any outlets near them at all, it would make sense if you are an EV owner that you park your vehicle at an outfitter, have them tote you to your preferred EP while they charge your vehicle back at their place.

While I support your EV ownership, not only would infrastructure cost seem prohibitive to set up chargers at EPs, but I, for one, would not enjoy seeing charging stations at an EP. I guess I'm just too old school for that.

I will just drive my F-250 to the EP's and not worry about it.

Mileage Example:
Chevy Volt: 238 miles of electric range* with a full charge. Cost: $36,620 to $42,875.
*affected by temperature & terrain & road conditions.
Price range above does not include substantial Federal Tax break incentive.

Chargers at the EP, which the OP did not suggest, would not make a lot of sense. It makes more sense for the charger to be somewhere staffed so that multiple cars can be swapped at a charger during trips that last multiple days. That could easily be done at a private property (as suggested) or an outfitter.

Why not just rent a car for the one or two times a year you might go to the bwca instead of trying to find someone else to make it more convenient for you because you bought an EV without the infrastructure in place to support them?

I reread the OP. I don't sense any animosity from the OP or expectation/demand that people do this for electric cars. Also, I agree, I don't think the intent was to have charging stations at the EP.

It seems to me that s/he is just respectfully asking and opening the discussion. I guess I find this thread interesting, and could be interesting to outfitters, especially if the market expands. Seems like a low investment for a return.

mjmkjun: "Mileage Example:
Chevy Volt: 238 miles of electric range* with a full charge. Cost: $36,620 to $42,875.
*affected by temperature & terrain & road conditions.
Price range above does not include substantial Federal Tax break incentive."

What does tossing a couple canoes on top do to that? I’ve been waiting for that electric f-250 so I too can support our local coal plants. Haha. No, good thread and good thinking. That is a good idea... my leading question was reason for post...

Seems legit.

Reckon that one could be called a hybrid...

As a member of a small electric co-op, I say no way to individual users providing this service. Most electricity up there is delivered by either Arrowhead Electric or Lake Country Power, and third-party aggregators don’t seem compatible with co-op systems to me. Perhaps the individual Co-ops themselves could provide charging stations. That would remove the potential unfairness issues to co-op members.

nooneuno: "Why not just rent a car for the one or two times a year you might go to the bwca instead of trying to find someone else to make it more convenient for you because you bought an EV without the infrastructure in place to support them?"

The infrastructure is in place, it could just be better. A few reasons to not rent a gas car is that it:
-Costs a lot
-The car may not be configured for handling canoes and gear

A question for you is why not take make a little inconvenience yourself, rather than being content to just pollute an unnecessary amount?

Right now, there are great high speed charging options in Duluth, roughly 100 miles from most EPs, at least Ely side EPs. The long range EV's, average around 270 miles of range, can make the there-and-back trip. It all works as is, it could just be better.

As EV's proliferate, there is surely going to be some type of cottage industry/service for BWCAers. Perhaps there will only be a short window where the range is less than a non-factor. There are now 300 mile range EV's, 400 seems pretty close and even 600....the 600 being totally impractical for all reasons...for the time being.

As a cabin owner near multiple EP’s (four within short distance), this idea peaks my interest as I’m already paying a monthly fee to the electric coop even if I use no power. It could help offset some of the costs. Although, not sure if the coops have ruled regarding these types of things. Worth looking into. I’m going to check out the plugshare website, thanks for sharing.
It seems to me like this could be an opportunity for outfitters to add revenue to their business at minimal added cost. It takes a good 24-36 hours to charge an EV (from the research I’ve done) with a standard plug and most BW trips are longer than that so the outfitters wouldn’t necessarily need to install $1000 charging stations unless the demand was there and they wanted to charge lots of vehicles. Seems like a win-win for outfitters and EV owning trippers.

I’m really looking forward to an affordable EV that can get 300 miles because then I could make it to the cabin, and charge while I’m there for the trip home.

Tony

I think this would come down to one simple question -- are EV drivers willing to pay a premium to charge their vehicles in the wilderness? If so, then maybe it's a potential revenue stream for an outfitter to consider -- but even then a meager one probably? It's a very niche market still. I could see someone providing a full-service park & ride with charging at additional cost? If they invest in stations they would want keys to your vehicle so they could move it once charged to make room for the next vehicle.

For individual land owners I personally think this is an awful idea. At the very least you'd want an iron-clad liability release form signed by anyone leaving their unattended vehicle hooked to electrical current on your property?

At my co-op residential electric car charging must be done on separate meters, off-peak (11pm-7am) at 4.9 cents per kWh.

The co-ops make it more complicated but let’s remember that the original poster is simply offering people a business opportunity. He’s not demanding anything. And we all pay a premium to drive trucks or cars up there when we refill the tanks. He’s just offering people a chance to make a few bucks by filling his and other “tanks.”

And renting is not a great solution. Most or all rental car companies don’t allow you to put stuff on the roof, many of the cars come with the racks removed for that reason, and towing a trailer is forbidden. Not saying people don’t break the rack rule but it is against the contracts.

To clear a few things up:

There is probably no "equipment" to invest in. A regular household outlet is fine in the situation we are talking about, where the car is going to be sitting for at least 48 hours. A regular household plug is fine, and the car owner would bring the cord. There may even be plugs for engine block heaters already set-up at parking spots. There are often outlets on the side of buildings, in garages, at the base of light posts.....

In the case that an outfitter may want to offer a faster charging option, possibly when an EV driver would stay with them for one night, a simple 14-50 outlet is great. This is basically an RV hookup/dryer/welder plug. The cost is mostly in the electrician's labor, likely. The actually plug us something like $20, the wire would likely cost more...depends on the length of the run. Some outfitters may already have RV hookups?

Tesla is beginning to charge for the use of their Superchargers. In some municipalities only a utility company can sell kwh's, so Tesla sells "time" on the charger instead. This may be sort of a work-around depending on local regs.

Finally, someone commented on an affordable 300 mile EV. As an amateur EV ambassador, just want to point out that you can now buy used Tesla Model S's in the low 30k's, with 250 miles of range and Superchargers available in Hinckley and Duluth. These chargers would be free to you, forever, and put around 5 miles of range into the car every minute (best of 6, worst around 3, many factors. I know 30k is not everyones definition of affordable, but it is certainly not a crazy price and EV's offer a lot of savings too.

Thanks everyone

Somewhat off topic- but being a winter camper in the BW and all and looking at a new vehicle in the next year or so-- how dependable are the electric cars ( trucks) when it's -30F to -40F?? How does the range and dependability work compared to gas when it's so cold when bitter cold doesn't help battery bang? ( I totally understand that many car "starting" batteries lose their life during the heat of the summer , only to be realized with less cranking power in the winter. How does this work with total electric cars? It's one thing to not have a vehicle start due to a dead (cold) battery (jump start)-- but what about a vehicle that is dependent not only on start , but on propulsion from elec in brutal cold? I know battey ice augers have come a long way- but those are ice augers, not your transportation out of the bush when it's -35F. I'am just a little leary of batteries when it comes to bitter cold powering me out of the boreal forest compared to gasoline. Thought?

thegildedgopher: "I think this would come down to one simple question -- are EV drivers willing to pay a premium to charge their vehicles in the wilderness? If so, then maybe it's a potential revenue stream for an outfitter to consider -- but even then a meager one probably? It's a very niche market still. I could see someone providing a full-service park & ride with charging at additional cost? If they invest in stations they would want keys to your vehicle so they could move it once charged to make room for the next vehicle.


For individual land owners I personally think this is an awful idea. At the very least you'd want an iron-clad liability release form signed by anyone leaving their unattended vehicle hooked to electrical current on your property?"

The liability form is a valid and important point! All of the outfitters have liability forms for rental, property etcetera. But this is another form of liability which would have to cover things happening from power surges/outages/etcetera that happen quite often up here in Ely. I think that while I'd be happy to help out a customer, the cost I'd have to charge for it (the electric would be only a small part) would be more than many people would want to pay. "Legal-eeze" stuff is always a pain.

Funny, I guess I didn't log in with my last post. Guest eh? :-)

WhiteWolf: "Somewhat off topic- but being a winter camper in the BW and all and looking at a new vehicle in the next year or so-- how dependable are the electric cars ( trucks) when it's -30F to -40F?? How does the range and dependability work compared to gas when it's so cold when bitter cold doesn't help battery bang? ( I totally understand that many car "starting" batteries lose their life during the heat of the summer , only to be realized with less cranking power in the winter. How does this work with total electric cars? It's one thing to not have a vehicle start due to a dead (cold) battery (jump start)-- but what about a vehicle that is dependent not only on start , but on propulsion from elec in brutal cold? I know battey ice augers have come a long way- but those are ice augers, not your transportation out of the bush when it's -35F. I'am just a little leary of batteries when it comes to bitter cold powering me out of the boreal forest compared to gasoline. Thought?"

In my experience owning an EV in MN cold:

-The range is reduced. The battery heats itself, so if you do a lot of short trips on a cold day, you are going to see a larger reduction in range, because the battery will go cold-warm-cold-warm-cold-warm. If you are just doing one, longer trip, you will see less of a reduction, because the battery is only overcoming the thermal inertia one time. I'd roughly guess a 15% reduction for the long scenario and a 25% reduction for the short scenario.

Overall, the winter EV experience is really nice, with near instant heating, no rough starts, better traction control, heating from phone or smart pre-conditioning.

-I have driven my car as cold a probably -30, for sure -25f, and it was fine. However, I was not parked overnight in -40f. In that cold you will see "vampire drain," the car will lose range just sitting there, resulting from trying to keep the battery warm. I have no idea how much drain, I have never had my car in that cold and not plugged in. I'll guess 12 miles/day.

-When you initially "start" a cold EV, you will have reduced power and regenerative breaking. An EV with reduced power is still quite powerful.

As high speed charging proliferates, all this starts to become nearly a non-issue.

I drove my car from Ely to Minneapolis without stopping a few years ago, 250ish miles, temps were 20-40f, roughly, over the course of the drive. I had to really watch consumption. Now, there are Superchargers in Duluth and Hinkley, so I could have not really paid attention at all, and just made a pit stop in Hinkley and been fine.

I am a guy who gets out there, my EV has been to Utah from MN, had bikes on the back at -20f. It works for me. People seem to look at EV's from a sort of worst case perspective. Day to day, they are so much nicer. No oil changes, no trips to the gas station in the morning, so much less to maintain, around 300% more efficient, quieter, FASTER!, usually safer... In extreme cases, say parked for a week in Jan, unplugged, outside, at an EP....the realistic case is you would drive into Ely and get on a charger there for an hour. From that point, there are fast charging options in Duluth, Hinkley, Thunder Bay, Baxter...with more being added, Literally every time I winter camped BWCA in my Jetta, I got a CEL and a very rough start.

I hope that paints an honest picture and answers some questions.

VoyageurNorth: "Funny, I guess I didn't log in with my last post. Guest eh? :-)"

Hi VoyageurNorth. Obviously you need to run your business as you see fit. I just want you to know I have never heard of any kind of surge or power issue causing damage to an EV. They cord/connector has protections and the car does within it as well. I'd think the worst aspect of a power issue would be a frustrated customer because the car stopped charing in response to a surge or other issue.

Thanks for joining the conversation.

brp: "

VoyageurNorth: "Funny, I guess I didn't log in with my last post. Guest eh? :-)"

Hi VoyageurNorth. Obviously you need to run your business as you see fit. I just want you to know I have never heard of any kind of surge or power issue causing damage to an EV. They cord/connector has protections and the car does within it as well. I'd think the worst aspect of a power issue would be a frustrated customer because the car stopped charing in response to a surge or other issue.


Thanks for joining the conversation."

Well, if our insurance didn't have a hard time with it or it caused problems with liability, I'm sure we'd be fine with charging a car. I'd have to find out more about them to see what would be needed as far as equipment, space and other things I'm sure I don't know enough about yet, to ask. :-)

brp: "

VoyageurNorth: "Funny, I guess I didn't log in with my last post. Guest eh? :-)"

Hi VoyageurNorth. Obviously you need to run your business as you see fit. I just want you to know I have never heard of any kind of surge or power issue causing damage to an EV. They cord/connector has protections and the car does within it as well. I'd think the worst aspect of a power issue would be a frustrated customer because the car stopped charing in response to a surge or other issue.


Thanks for joining the conversation."

Well, if our insurance didn't have a hard time with it or it caused problems with liability, I'm sure we'd be fine with charging a car. I'd have to find out more about them to see what would be needed as far as equipment, space and other things I'm sure I don't know enough about yet, to ask. :-)

By the way, we are on the edge of Ely, not out near entry points so it would have to be one of those, leave your car & get transported by VNO.

BRP I have a question for you, I don't obviously know where you live, but would you be okay with strangers showing up, knocking at your door every couple days, all summer long wanting to park in your driveway and plug in their electric car? Just go with it honey he's willing to pay an extra $3 dollars above the cost of the electric, Whoo Hoo, we'll be rich in no time...Your EV does not run on electricity it runs on coal, just like the Stanley Steamer, you just don't have to see where the coal is burned through your windshield.

nooneuno: "BRP I have a question for you, I don't obviously know where you live, but would you be okay with strangers showing up, knocking at your door every couple days, all summer long wanting to park in your driveway and plug in their electric car? Just go with it honey he's willing to pay an extra $3 dollars above the cost of the electric, Whoo Hoo, we'll be rich in no time...Your EV does not run on electricity it runs on coal, just like the Stanley Steamer, you just don't have to see where the coal is burned through your windshield."

Can’t speak for Brp but I would be ok with that. Sounds like a nice way to meet people that like clean air and canoeing. (If it was you I would have to say no though)

This a neat idea and topic. May I ask what kind of vehicle you drive Brp?

PaddlinMadeline: "

nooneuno: "BRP I have a question for you, I don't obviously know where you live, but would you be okay with strangers showing up, knocking at your door every couple days, all summer long wanting to park in your driveway and plug in their electric car? Just go with it honey he's willing to pay an extra $3 dollars above the cost of the electric, Whoo Hoo, we'll be rich in no time...Your EV does not run on electricity it runs on coal, just like the Stanley Steamer, you just don't have to see where the coal is burned through your windshield."

Can’t speak for Brp but I would be ok with that. Sounds like a nice way to meet people that like clean air and canoeing. (If it was you I would hayve to say no though)"

So your saying burning coal is cleaner than burning oil?

PaddlinMadeline: "

nooneuno: "BRP I have a question for you, I don't obviously know where you live, but would you be okay with strangers showing up, knocking at your door every couple days, all summer long wanting to park in your driveway and plug in their electric car? Just go with it honey he's willing to pay an extra $3 dollars above the cost of the electric, Whoo Hoo, we'll be rich in no time...Your EV does not run on electricity it runs on coal, just like the Stanley Steamer, you just don't have to see where the coal is burned through your windshield."

Can’t speak for Brp but I would be ok with that. Sounds like a nice way to meet people that like clean air and canoeing. (If it was you I would hayve to say no though)"

So your saying burning coal is cleaner than burning oil?

nooneuno: "

PaddlinMadeline: "

nooneuno: "BRP I have a question for you, I don't obviously know where you live, but would you be okay with strangers showing up, knocking at your door every couple days, all summer long wanting to park in your driveway and plug in their electric car? Just go with it honey he's willing to pay an extra $3 dollars above the cost of the electric, Whoo Hoo, we'll be rich in no time...Your EV does not run on electricity it runs on coal, just like the Stanley Steamer, you just don't have to see where the coal is burned through your windshield."

Can’t speak for Brp but I would be ok with that. Sounds like a nice way to meet people that like clean air and canoeing. (If it was you I would hayve to say no though)"

So your saying burning coal is cleaner than burning oil?"

In this case, yes. A massive powerplant can create a btu of energy cleaner and more efficiently burning coal or any other fuel source, than an automotive can burning Petro. Economy of scale!

Additionally, the number of coal fired power plants continues to decrease. Demand for coal in the US has dropped several years in a row. An increasing percentage of our power is from alternative sources.

nooneuno: "BRP I have a question for you, I don't obviously know where you live, but would you be okay with strangers showing up, knocking at your door every couple days, all summer long wanting to park in your driveway and plug in their electric car? Just go with it honey he's willing to pay an extra $3 dollars above the cost of the electric, Whoo Hoo, we'll be rich in no time...Your EV does not run on electricity it runs on coal, just like the Stanley Steamer, you just don't have to see where the coal is burned through your windshield."

You have every detail here objectively wrong to misleading at least.

-The situation I described is there would be an arrangement ahead of time, so stranger to a degree, but a welcomed stranger. The price is whatever is arranged and could be substantially more than $3 above cost. To give you some perspective on my motivations, I used to give away 50 gallons of clean, ready to burn vegetable oil, to anybody who needed it. I used to have diesels that I ran on vegetable oil, and I would share via a site call fillupforfree.com. I met some great people, saw some cool vehicles, and helped people who were passionate about sustainability, often going cross country.

-My car does not run on coal, it runs on a blend of sunshine and wind. My house produces, long-term, more electricity than it uses, including charging the car. I buy wind energy to supplement my solar. In MN, coal represents 39% of generation, followed by renewables and then nuclear. So, essentially, no car charged in MN could charge only on coal. Even if it did charge only on coal, the carbon emissions would be roughly 1/3 to 1/4 of a similar gasoline car. Most EVs get an MPGe, "e" standing for "equivalent," rating from about 95 to 130.

PaddlinMadeline: "This a neat idea and topic. May I ask what kind of vehicle you drive Brp?"

I've got a 2014 Tesla Model S. The Model S is the large sedan/hatchback, the Model X is the SUV and the Model 3 is the normal sedan size.

brp: "

PaddlinMadeline: "This a neat idea and topic. May I ask what kind of vehicle you drive Brp?"

I've got a 2014 Tesla Model S. The Model S is the large sedan/hatchback, the Model X is the SUV and the Model 3 is the normal sedan size."

Awesome!

I apologise for veering off topic, not the time or place, good luck...

nooneuno: "I apologise for veering off topic, not the time or place, good luck..."

No problem Nooneuno. Thanks for being part of the discussion.

Is there an outfitter servicing the BWCA that would really say no to someone charging their electric vehicle at their place while they are on their trip? If they need nothing more than a standard outlet and an extension cord it seems like something that could easily be accommodated by any outfitter. At the moment if its only a rare occurrence i'd bet some wouldn't even charge for it and offer it as a courtesy to an already paying customer. As it becomes more common and the demand increases then it could be a paid service that they offer. All they'd have to do is set aside the parking spots nearest the available outlet for EV use and then tack on a flat EV charge fee (say $25). Its not going to make them a ton of money but its also almost zero work or effort on their part. The real pay out comes from using that service to entice EV drivers to use them for their full outfitting needs.

I'm not an EV owner but do own a Prius, and I live in northern MN.
I have 167k miles on it and my car batteries are happier when it's colder than warmer. Batteries don't like heat. I have probably saved enough money in gas over the last 14 years that I have owned my car to have paid for it.

Something else to ponder, electric vehicle sales double every year. And that number is going to soar in the next few years. EV cars are indeed far more efficient and cost effective since they have so few moving parts.

Older people don't like change but as we age, the new generation takes our place, and EV's are going to be part of their lives. Not too far in the future, EV car sales will surpass internal combustion engines. It is driven by money, and in the long run, Ev's will be cheaper to buy and own than their counter-parts.

Tom