After spending yesterday morning trying to get a permit, I'd be happy to go back to a full analog system, for a number of reasons.

Perhaps we try a system where people send in a postcard/form with your top five entry points and your top five entry dates. A month later, the USFS sends you back a postcard with your entry date and point.

BW use is in significant decline (https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/sports/outdoors/3700238-boundary-waters-use-down-slightly-over-past-five-years) and there's no good reason for there to be a scrum over permits. Permit competition is an artificial problem.

Somehow the internet has given us a sense of control over the experience - control over the dates, control over the entry, control over the campsites. I don't see how that sense of control contributes in any way to a wilderness experience.

Certainly some will say, "I can only go in at EP 28 on July 2nd. If I don't go then and there, my perfectly engineered life will fall apart." To which I can only say, "Buddy, maybe the woods aren't for you right now."

Let's go back to an analog system. There's plenty of woods for everyone if we can only stop trying to "optimize" the outdoors and instead just take it as it comes. Pen and paper would be a good first step in that direction.

It's not April 1 yet, so perhaps you are serious?

How about just scrapping the permit system altogether? Register at the EP and quit trying to regulate usage...

So, I can shoot holes in anything.

The problem with a top 5 postcard system is that over 5 years you never guaranteed to your top 1.

the article states BWCA usage is down. Ok. So if there 20000 permits but only 10000 people sign up you could have a situation where some popular spots would be completely full up but less popular spots are empty.

The FS could then select for you and send you to a your last choice just to spread the impact around. Or maybe the DNR takes that opportunity to reduce fishing pressure on the lake you want.

I think that would give the government the chance to just manage the crap out it and we are seeing how well that is working this week.

bobbernumber3: "It's not April 1 yet, so perhaps you are serious?


How about just scrapping the permit system altogether? Register at the EP and quit trying to regulate usage..."

I think the only problem with that would be the number of campsites. I don't want to haul my canoe up from Iowa, paddle and portage, paddle and portage, only to discover that every campsite on my map is full. I'll get pissed off and bushwhack a site if I am 3 lakes in and can't find a campsite.

But, you have point on the motor lakes. That is where the permit competition is taking place anyway. Just open it up, turn a few islands into campgrounds and be done with it. Then if the motor people want a wilderness experience, they can buy a canoe like the rest of us.

Or, what we are learning is the law of supply and demand. We have a finite resource, permits, at a too low price so demand is high for those permits. Increasing the permit fee will lower demand and solve the problem.

Or, make motor usage like crossbows. You can only get a motor permit if your physical profile precludes you from canoeing.

All of those options suck compared to a lottery system.

I’m required to bid my yearly vacation prior to the permit reservation window. Yes, I HAVE to go to the BW on certain dates. I fail to see how that makes me unworthy of going into the wilderness. I also fail to see why we should take a step backward in technology simply because of this one glitch. The system will get fixed and will be a better system than using outdated technology.

I get what you're suggesting, but I'm not on board with it. Yes, I think there are quite a few people that are too picky and bratty about the whole thing, but I still don't really see your suggestion as being much of an improvement.

I'll be visiting the BWCA for the first time this year. I have a specific entry in mind (Clearwater). However, I have also planned for an East Bearskin entry if Clearwater can't work. I also have a plan C of going to the Horseshoe/Vista area if neither Clearwater nor E Bearskin are doable, and within plan C, I'm prepared for either Poplar or Morgan entry. And if NONE of those work-out, I'm more than happy to enter somewhere else and enjoy that area of the BW. Honestly, who only ever plans just ONE BWCA trip anyway? I have at least five different trips moderately to fully planned-out just off the top of my head. I guess for guys who've been there a bunch and want to see something specific that they've never seen before it might be a bummer to miss a chance to visit that area, but so many areas of can be reached from more than one entry point that I find it really hard to believe that anyone could find it utterly impossible to ever visit a specific destination if they really wanted to.

My group's date of entry is only flexible by about 2 days, but our entry point and destination...we have our preferences for this trip, but ultimately we just want to spend a week in the BW and will be happy doing that in any area from any entry point. This is how people should approach this, and I get that what you are suggesting is a system that does this FOR people, but I think this is just something that people need to understand and execute themselves. Forcing it on them as a system is just going to cause trouble.

Most people turn to groups and forums like this for assistance when acquainting themselves with and planning for a BWCA trip--at least the first time. Guidance is given gladly and enthusiastically, but telling people to have backup plans is less commonly stressed to new visitors, and we should change that. Yes, they are told not to get their hearts set on specific campsites, but the newbies should also be made to understand the whole entries/trips may need to change if the permit availability just isn't their for the date that they need.

I like the permitted entry point concept at play here. I can't think of any other way to make sure that areas/campsites do not become overpopulated at any given time without putting way more stress on some sort of enforcement group to regulate the area. Yeah, having entry point limits isn't perfect, but it does a decent job and doesn't demand too much from the USFS which allows them to focus their limited resources on more productive things.

Regarding how we get our permits...the new system had glitches and crashed. That kind of thing happens all the time. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. It will be fixed, and we'll all be fine. There may be some improvements to be made, and we'll communicate them to the people who can implement them and, hopefully, those changes will be implemented. This really isn't something to get completely bent out of shape about.

foxfireniner: "So, I can shoot holes in anything.
The problem with a top 5 postcard system is that over 5 years you never guaranteed to your top 1.
"

Perhaps, although maybe you decide to go during off-peak times, or open up the dates you're willing to go in order to get that desirable permit.

foxfireniner:
the article states BWCA usage is down. Ok. So if there 20000 permits but only 10000 people sign up you could have a situation where some popular spots would be completely full up but less popular spots are empty
"

Sure, but when did this rush for a small number of permits get started? Why is everyone trying to go to the same few entry points? It hasn't always been this way.

foxfireniner: "

bobbernumber3: "It's not April 1 yet, so perhaps you are serious?

How about just scrapping the permit system altogether? Register at the EP and quit trying to regulate usage..."

I think the only problem with that would be the number of campsites. I don't want to haul my canoe up from Iowa, paddle and portage, paddle and portage, only to discover that every campsite on my map is full. I'll get pissed off and bushwhack a site if I am 3 lakes in and can't find a campsite.
"

Campsite congestion has gotten a lot worse over the past five or ten years.

My gut says it's due to the serious increase in the number of people paddling in one or two lakes and base camping for a week to float around on an inflatable dinosaur with a cooler full of beer. It only takes a few parties doing that to make it tough for people coming in to find any sort of campsite their first day.

Last summer my wife and I paddled past every single campsite on all four of the numbered lakes without finding a vacant one.

Having a one or two night max on the first lake or two after the entry would go a long way toward alleviating crowding.

caleb: "Perhaps, although maybe you decide to go during off-peak times, or open up the dates you're willing to go in order to get that desirable permit."

Many people just don't have much flexibility with their schedules. This is something that neither we nor they have much, if any, control over.

caleb: "Sure, but when did this rush for a small number of permits get started? Why is everyone trying to go to the same few entry points? It hasn't always been this way. "

This IS something we can change. Obviously people can learn to be less picky and more appreciative of the entire park. Some areas will always be more popular because of ease of access or the quality of campsites or the variety of campsites or the variety of day tripping directions or notable scenery or any number of objective and subjective factors. We can influence some change here, however, partially because we are already partly to blame for some areas' exaggerated popularity. Experienced BW visitors should provide more diverse recommendations for new visitors asking about where they should go instead of providing the same few every time. They should also stress the potential consequences of someone choosing a very popular location and emphasize the importance of being prepared to compete for, and potentially miss-out on, getting a permit for extremely popular dates/locations. Listening to the Tumblehome podcast guys talk about the weird phenomenon of people obsessing over the Little Caribou campsite is a great example of how such a specific point in the vast BWCA can get problematically overhyped, due in no small part to the contributions of internet resources adding to the hype and making the information so easily accessed without properly describing the consequences inherent to that level of popularity.

caleb: "Having a one or two night max on the first lake or two after the entry would go a long way toward alleviating crowding."

Would this not just shift the congestion to the deeper campsites? I'd rather struggle to find an open campsite near the entry than to struggle to find a site after I've paddled and portaged a full day into the park. This also would add a rule to be enforced which puts additional toll on enforcement agents. Likewise, it would be another rule to be ignored, abused, and advertised to others as "we got away with it, so can you."

Also, your suggestion comes from a place of you and your wife not getting your way on a trip which is an attitude you began this thread disparaging. It is my position that our fellow campers are just as much part of the experience as every other part of the BWCA, and they should be planned for and adapted to just as you would plan for and adapt to anything else.

mschi772: "I'll be visiting the BWCA for the first time this year. I have a specific entry in mind (Clearwater). However, I have also planned for an East Bearskin entry if Clearwater can't work. I also have a plan C of going to the Horseshoe/Vista area if neither Clearwater nor E Bearskin are doable, and within plan C, I'm prepared for either Poplar or Morgan entry. And if NONE of those work-out, I'm more than happy to enter somewhere else and enjoy that area of the BW. Honestly, who only ever plans just ONE BWCA trip anyway? I have at least five different trips moderately to fully planned-out just off the top of my head."

I haven't spent much time on here, so I don't know what people are reading, but you don't need to have a plan, much less five of them.

Some of the best trips I've ever done have amounted to me grabbing a map and groceries in Ely, and packing the food pack in the parking lot of the ranger station when I pick up my permit.

Going to the Boundary Waters isn't a NASA expedition to the moon. It's very simple and straightforward, and the necessary planning can be done with a map and a cup of coffee in about five minutes. I'd encourage you to embrace the joys of discovering the county with your natural senses, and not set your trip up as an itinerary to be executed.

caleb: "

mschi772: "I'll be visiting the BWCA for the first time this year. I have a specific entry in mind (Clearwater). However, I have also planned for an East Bearskin entry if Clearwater can't work. I also have a plan C of going to the Horseshoe/Vista area if neither Clearwater nor E Bearskin are doable, and within plan C, I'm prepared for either Poplar or Morgan entry. And if NONE of those work-out, I'm more than happy to enter somewhere else and enjoy that area of the BW. Honestly, who only ever plans just ONE BWCA trip anyway? I have at least five different trips moderately to fully planned-out just off the top of my head."

I haven't spent much time on here, so I don't know what people are reading, but you don't need to have a plan, much less five of them.


Some of the best trips I've ever done have amounted to me grabbing a map and groceries in Ely, and packing the food pack in the parking lot of the ranger station when I pick up my permit.


Going to the Boundary Waters isn't a NASA expedition to the moon. It's very simple and straightforward, and the necessary planning can be done with a map and a cup of coffee in about five minutes. I'd encourage you to embrace the joys of discovering the county with your natural senses, and not set your trip up as an itinerary to be executed."

The planning is fun. Sometimes I just look at a map and plan a trip just for the fun of it. Regardless, this trip required planning because I'm not the only person going. Date had to be specific to allow all interested parties to actually attend. Entry, destination, and route are also important for some members of my group as none of them have been to BWCA before and most of them are still new to canoing/camping/wilderness tripping; the planning helps put them at ease. You might say that they're just not ready or cut-out for it, and if they're not comfortable going on the terms you feel should be the terms, then they shouldn't. That is not my attitude, and you'll never convince me otherwise.

I'm passionate about getting MORE people to experience the wilderness and the activities surrounding it such as hiking, camping, paddling, etc. I believe that without more people experiencing these things, we'll eventually run out of appreciation for these wild places and run out of support for maintaining them. If planning a trip helps someone to feel comfortable visiting the BWCA, then I will provide a plan for them. We can't keep acting like places like this are just for specific people--they're for everyone, and we need to ENCOURAGE people to visit and appreciate them instead of DISCOURAGING them.

Finally, if you think that our planning is a complete itinerary to be executed, you are dead wrong. The planning basically consists of dates, an entry point, a rough collection/area on which to set up camp (either as a base camp for the whole trip or the area we camp at on the first and last nights on our way in and out), and a variety of contingency plans so that if something changes, we already have our ideas for how to adapt. That's it. What we do while we are there is NOT planned-out. Now for our Clearwater entry trip, obviously we are well aware of Johnson Falls and the palisades, and while I'd be very surprised if we didn't visit the falls or hike up the palisades, there's no plan that says either one has to happen.

Back to your postcard suggestion... You're suggesting actually submitting our choices to an agency and leaving selection up to them. All I'm saying, because this is literally how I operate, is to do the same thing but to trust and encourage people to have the maturity to do the selection of alternates themselves. My 2019 trip as an example. 1, Clearwater. 2, E Bearskin. 3, Poplar. 4, Morgan. 5... Moose River. Instead of burdening the USFS or whomever with actually selecting my entry for me, I'm fine doing it myself. If Clearwater can't work, E Bear, and if that doesn't work, Poplar, and so-on. We don't need to complicate the system by asking someone else to do this for us.

mschi772: "I'm passionate about getting MORE people to experience the wilderness and the activities surrounding it such as hiking, camping, paddling, etc. I believe that without more people experiencing these things, we'll eventually run out of appreciation for these wild places and run out of support for maintaining them. If planning a trip helps someone to feel comfortable visiting the BWCA, then I will provide a plan for them. We can't keep acting like places like this are just for specific people--they're for everyone, and we need to ENCOURAGE people to visit and appreciate them instead of DISCOURAGING them."

If my post comes off as discouraging or somehow elitist, I apologize, because I don't mean it that way at all.

I think where we differ is that I think that the "NASA expedition to the moon" model makes a canoe trip less accessible rather than more.

To me, if the expectation is months and months of planning, that looks daunting. To me, there's nothing more accessible than just showing up and going for a paddle to bump around in the woods for a few days and see what happens. There are zero barriers to entry in a trip like that - just get in and go.

It seems that perhaps that doesn't look accessible to others, and the highly planned trip is easier.

Honestly, if that's what you seek, then maybe you shouldn't plan trips in advance. Just pop into your local FS office and see what is available that day. Then you can enjoy the simplicity you speak of. If I was retired and had more than 80/2000 hours a year for time off, I would probably do that too.

It's not so easy to just show up and bump around for a few days. For many, it's quite the investment just to get there. We don't have all have the convenience of living nearby, being retired, or having generous employers with flexible schedules and/or generous vacation time. I'm in southeast WI. A trip to the BWCA means approximately 9 hours of driving. That's 2 solid days of just traveling to and from, and I'm still relatively close compared to many other visitors. Throw-in the actual time to be in and enjoy the park, and it becomes a serious investment of time that, due to many factors in our lives, we have to take very seriously.

In my experience, the majority of people who do not go somewhere like the BWCA fall into two groups. They either do not want to go for whatever reason (of which there are many but are irrelevant to this discussion), or they want to go but struggle to find the time to fit it into their lives.

Of the people in my group that are going and of the people I know that have gone, the ones that wanted or needed some kind of plan....did not want or need the plan to be a specific itinerary. They just wanted some rough idea of what to expect and to be able to provide that plan to family/friends as a safety precaution so that if something went wrong, there would be someone who would have some idea of where they could be found.

Your idea that people shouldn't set their hearts on one hyper-specific plan and freak-out if they don't get their way is good. People who can't or won't just wing it completely should have a plan B and plan C and be just as happy to accept them as plan A. Again, the part of your originally posted plan that I'm not on board with is putting the burden of selecting someone's secondary entry point on someone other than the tripper them self. A mature adult should be able to handle this for them self without a problem, and if there are people who can't handle this for themselves, we don't need to burden an agency that is ultimately taxpayer-funded with that responsibility.

Sidenote: It occurs to me that perhaps this guy---

Certainly some will say, "I can only go in at EP 28 on July 2nd. If I don't go then and there, my perfectly engineered life will fall apart." To which I can only say, "Buddy, maybe the woods aren't for you right now."

---perhaps the woods is exactly what that guy needs because if something so small makes him feel like his life is falling apart, some wilderness might be exactly the kind of perspective he needs to set himself straight. ...or he'd end-up descending further into madness or get himself seriously hurt of killed. Not sure.

Atrain: "Honestly, if that's what you seek, then maybe you shouldn't plan trips in advance. Just pop into your local FS office and see what is available that day. Then you can enjoy the simplicity you speak of. If I was retired and had more than 80/2000 hours a year for time off, I would probably do that too. "

I have most definitely done that, and I expect I will again in the future.

I've also started out slogging 300+ rods through muck due to the entry point. And it was fine, because that's part of the experience.

mschi772:
In my experience, the majority of people who do not go somewhere like the BWCA fall into two groups. They either do not want to go for whatever reason (of which there are many but are irrelevant to this discussion), or they want to go but struggle to find the time to fit it into their lives.

There's also a significant group that we often forget about who are dedicated canoeists and have no interest in going to the BW because of the cluster it's become. To them, it looks easier and more attractive to head up to Ontario and Manitoba where you're alone a hundred yards from your car. They might not be the largest group, but these are people who might be some of the most effective advocates for the BW if they were engaged.

caleb: "

mschi772:
In my experience, the majority of people who do not go somewhere like the BWCA fall into two groups. They either do not want to go for whatever reason (of which there are many but are irrelevant to this discussion), or they want to go but struggle to find the time to fit it into their lives.

There's also a significant group that we often forget about who are dedicated canoeists and have no interest in going to the BW because of the cluster it's become. To them, it looks easier and more attractive to head up to Ontario and Manitoba where you're alone a hundred yards from your car. They might not be the largest group, but these are people who might be some of the most effective advocates for the BW if they were engaged."

Well, I said "places like the BWCA" to imply that I'm not talking JUST about the BWCA. Regardless, you're right that that group exists, and I didn't forget about them. I do wish they were more engaged with the public. They are, as you said, a small group. I also don't pay them much attention because among their small population, many of them are the type to selfishly proclaim that amazing wilderness locations should be kept secret, denied to anyone who is in on the secret. Yeah, the "secret-keepers" exist in the other groups as well, but that already small recluse-camper group is made even smaller by the "secret-keepers."

I find that attitude supremely disagreeable. If no one knows of an area, how can they appreciate what makes it special? If not enough people are aware/appreciative of our wildernesses, that's fewer people to protect/defend them when they are threatened. The best way to protect these places is to make people aware and teach them about them so that they can understand why we can't just keep destroying and developing anywhere and everywhere someone (or some corporation) may want to.

A lot of blame is going around ranging from poor web design by the lowest bidder, government workers not working, groups hoping to block motors from the wilderness, internet access disparities between Ely and bigger cities. Now, it's elitists demanding their first choice of place and time??

The best solution might be to have recreation.gov create separate registration websites for BWCAW overnight paddle/hiking permits and BWCAW overnight motor permits.

Sure, there was a new design, but the biggest factor seemed to be the inclusion of overnight motor permits for entry points that had previously been kept as lottery picks. Until the past few years, I had no idea of the hyper-extreme level of competition for those OM permits. Perhaps for starters, pull those out to a separate process and reduce the load.

caleb: "

mschi772: "I'll be visiting the BWCA for the first time this year. I have a specific entry in mind (Clearwater). However, I have also planned for an East Bearskin entry if Clearwater can't work. I also have a plan C of going to the Horseshoe/Vista area if neither Clearwater nor E Bearskin are doable, and within plan C, I'm prepared for either Poplar or Morgan entry. And if NONE of those work-out, I'm more than happy to enter somewhere else and enjoy that area of the BW. Honestly, who only ever plans just ONE BWCA trip anyway? I have at least five different trips moderately to fully planned-out just off the top of my head."

I haven't spent much time on here, so I don't know what people are reading, but you don't need to have a plan, much less five of them.


Some of the best trips I've ever done have amounted to me grabbing a map and groceries in Ely, and packing the food pack in the parking lot of the ranger station when I pick up my permit.


Going to the Boundary Waters isn't a NASA expedition to the moon. It's very simple and straightforward, and the necessary planning can be done with a map and a cup of coffee in about five minutes. I'd encourage you to embrace the joys of discovering the county with your natural senses, and not set your trip up as an itinerary to be executed."

And let's not forget the endless amount of Youtubers, that promote going full tilt all day. It's all about the number of miles, portages, and lakes one can cover on a trip. I admit, I watch most of them; but shake my head when they say shit like, "I'd love to fish this spot, if I had time". WTF? I agree completely Caleb, a lot of people are missing the point of going to the Boundary Waters in the first place, and I'm not referring to anyone here on BWCA.com. I've learned a lot from the members here and appreciate all their contributions. I hope we never see the day when it becomes the BWCA - KOA.

schweady: "A lot of blame is going around ranging from poor web design by the lowest bidder, government workers not working, groups hoping to block motors from the wilderness, internet access disparities between Ely and bigger cities. Now, it's elitists demanding their first choice of place and time??


The best solution might be to have recreation.gov create separate registration websites for BWCAW overnight paddle/hiking permits and BWCAW overnight motor permits.


Sure, there was a new design, but the biggest factor seemed to be the inclusion of overnight motor permits for entry points that had previously been kept as lottery picks. Until the past few years, I had no idea of the hyper-extreme level of competition for those OM permits. Perhaps for starters, pull those out to a separate process and reduce the load.
"

Good idea

Well, I think we all need to consider that we all are coming from different situations - so nothing is going to be a perfect process.

...what gets me lately, having only realized it after going for 10 years, is that some folks snatch up a bunch of permits, planning on canceling most of them because they are not sure when/where they are going to enter.

A different perspective - some of us out here are still working, with multiple kids and tight summer schedules. That means summer plans involve serious planning - I have to make deposits on summer camps, youth group trips, sports, etc with specific dates for three kids. Family from another part of the country who will join us have to do the same. We have to turn in our vacation dates for this upcoming summer asap. So the last minute, show up and figure out where we are entering the day-of doesn't work for us. But it feels kind of crappy to know that some people who don't have to or can't plan ahead limit the options for others right away, only to loosen those dates up later after the rush. Admittedly, I don't know how to fix that. And - I've always gotten my date and EP. So I guess I'm just cranky about it. Kids do that to a guy I guess.

scotttimm: "But it feels kind of crappy to know that some people who don't have to or can't plan ahead limit the options for others right away, only to loosen those dates up later after the rush. Admittedly, I don't know how to fix that. "

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I can't really come up with a significant downside to using basically the same system we have now with the exception of not allowing reservations for a particular date until 1 or 2 months prior to that date. There'd be less traffic for the system at any given time...people could still have ample notice and prep time...people hoarding permits would be less of an issue... It's still not perfect--nothing ever will be--but I see a variety of reasons it could be better and not so many ways it would be any worse.

Wow this is a funny thread!

No i dont want to go back to an analog system just because of a small hiccup.

Caleb, have you been sufficiently reminded that alternative perapectives and relationships with the bwca exist?

Others providing anecdots please remember these are just anecdots.

"Lets not forget the endless amount of youtubers that are promoting going full tilt all day. Its all about number of miles portages or lakes they can cover in one day...."

So you watched a youtube video once where someone was pursuing a goal seperate from you..... Ok.... Cool..... Did you really think someone will make a bwca youtube video of them just sitting around relaxing, reading or napping maybe? Lol

Wow this is a funny thread!

No i dont want to go back to an analog system just because of a small hiccup.

Caleb, have you been sufficiently reminded that alternative perapectives and relationships with the bwca exist?

Others providing anecdots please remember these are just anecdots.

"Lets not forget the endless amount of youtubers that are promoting going full tilt all day. Its all about number of miles portages or lakes they can cover in one day...."

So you watched a youtube video once where someone was pursuing a goal seperate from you..... Ok.... Cool..... Did you expect to find videos of people relaxing?

Scrap the whole reservation system. First come, first served. When you show up at any cooperator, you can choose from whatever is available. No cussing allowed or you can be denied any permit.

Tongue firmly in cheek...

Gost of murfy lac jin: "Wow this is a funny thread!


No i dont want to go back to an analog system just because of a small hiccup.


Caleb, have you been sufficiently reminded that alternative perapectives and relationships with the bwca exist?


Others providing anecdots please remember these are just anecdots.


"Lets not forget the endless amount of youtubers that are promoting going full tilt all day. Its all about number of miles portages or lakes they can cover in one day...."


So you watched a youtube video once where someone was pursuing a goal seperate from you..... Ok.... Cool..... Did you really think someone will make a bwca youtube video of them just sitting around relaxing, reading or napping maybe? Lol"

The point was... By racing through the Boundary Waters as fast as you can, you are missing a lot of what it has to offer. I guess some people could look at the BWCA as an endurance run and to challenge ones abilities. Planning a route that is so aggressive that you can't do many of the things you would like to do while there, just to reach your mileage "goal", is hard for me to understand. Not saying it is wrong, it is just different than how I enjoy the area.

And to be fair, there are a lot of Youtubers that post trip videos that are at a more modest pace. I am thankful for their videos, as it allows me to see areas of the BWCA I might otherwise not get a chance to. Life is demanding enough and time seems to go by way too fast. A place like the Boundary Waters should be appreciated for everything that it is, those that rocket right through it, might just miss the entire reason to go there in the first place.