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thegildedgopher
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05/08/2019 11:17AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
I will be fishing some border lakes in June. We will definitely be fishing in Ontario waters at times, but the only time we could possibly come close to setting foot on Canadian turf would be pulling the boat through narrow passages to connecting lakes, which I guess will depend on water levels. This would be Gunflint > Magnetic or possibly Gunflint > Little Gunflint > Little North > North.

To be on the safe side I applied for the RABC which should arrive in the next couple weeks. I also have an Ontario Outdoors Card and fishing license. I wanted to be sure that if we ran into Candian border patrol or Ontario natural resources staff that we had all the documentation covered.

By the letter of the law, when I come back from a day-trip like this, I believe I am supposed to go immediately to the CBP station in Grand Marais and report my re-entry to the United States. My question is simple -- do others in the same situation actually do this? Do you make a separate trip each time you do this, or just once at the end of your trip? Or not at all?
 
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05/08/2019 12:18PM  
You can't interrupt your trip to go report at the end of a daytrip. I would hesitate to even have an RABC in this situation unless you are way into Canadian waters and not just slightly over the line or cutting corners. Personally, I'm going to Clearwater next month and if we have time/privacy, I might head over to mountain lake and go to the Canada side just to touch the shoreline and say that I set one foot in Canada.

For you it seems like a good idea to have the RABC if you are going to spend a significant amount of time on the boarder, and if you have the RABC then you might as well check in at the end of your trip to show that you are doing it correctly. If you never plan on getting another RABC then you could just ignore that part of things unless you do get checked or actually go into Canada. Either way, I don't think anyone really cares about people just fishing on the boarder lakes for the most part. I doubt they sit around and wait for someone to cross the invisible line in the middle of the lake.
thegildedgopher
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05/08/2019 12:36PM  
Yes, my understanding is that if we were planning on just fishing from the boat all we'd need is the outdoors card and ontario license.

We don't plan on hiking around or shore fishing on canadian land, but I think it could be difficult to avoid stepping on canadian ground when going through the narrows that connect the lakes to the East of Gunflint.
OtherBob
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05/08/2019 01:40PM  
The OP has the Canada question well in hand - it is the US question we have not addressed: Does fishing for a day on the Canadian side of border waters and returning to camp on the US side require reporting to US Border Patrol? Probably "Yes", but not to the extreme OP posted. You can wait until you return to Grand Marais or Ely without penalty (I hear, having no authority to cite). There is a special marine crossing procedure by which pre-registered boaters can clear US border and customs by telephone - there are even special phones at landings, I think at the end of the Gunflint Trail, for instance.

Enforcement is at random - will the two Border Patrol officers be canoeing the border lakes this year again? I have seen a Border Patrol vehicle heading up to the end of the Gunflint Trail. I don't know if that was a patrol or just a prearranged inspection at the landing. The Webster-Ashburton Treaty gives us rights to use border waters and portages freely for travel, but we should not abuse those rights.

Corrections, amendments, and updating welcomed - my experience is limited to being inspected at Crane Lake (US) and Sand Point (Canadian), or at International Falls/Fort Frances.
flynn
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05/08/2019 02:25PM  
Don't you need a Quetico day pass to be on the Canadian side of the border for any reason other than happenstance travel? That is, if you are moving from point A to point B, and you cross the invisible line on a border lake, or you need to use a portage on the Canadian side, you don't need anything special. But, if you are sightseeing, or fishing, you need an RABC and a Quetico day pass, and if you are fishing, you also need an Ontario fishing license. Based on what I have read (not only general reading but what people have specifically stated in threads where I asked about this), if you are on the Canadian side for any reason other than travel, where you need no special permits, you need an RABC, Quetico day pass, and if fishing, an Ontario fishing license.

Hopefully someone can clear this up, because if this is true, then you will need to visit a Quetico ranger station to pay for day passes on the exact days you decide you will be fishing the Canada side (inconvenient if you ask me - how will I know which days the weather lets me fish over there?). Whatever the case, please let us know.

OH! And don't forget the confusion around the "From Canada" BWCA permit. You might need one of these on the days you choose to fish Q. One for every single day you choose to cross the border to Q and come back to the BW. Or so it seems. I have no idea. These rules seem so ridiculous to follow because if for any reason you have to deviate from a plan (likely because of weather), you have no choice but to break the law. It seems like BS to me. And, different rangers will tell you different things! It's as clear as mud.
thegildedgopher
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05/08/2019 02:39PM  
Otherbob -- Thanks for your input. I'm not sure about the phone-in declaration anymore.

I have pretty much convinced myself that making a special drive from Gunny back to Grand Marais is ridiculous. So I could check in at Grand Marais on our way home, BUT will not be passing through town at at a time when the office is open.

Flynn -- I don't know if Quetico has special rules for fishing border lakes, but I definitely know that you can fish ontario waters with nothing but an ontario outdoors card and fishing license, no RABC required as long as you don't anchor up or land your boat on the Canadian side.i

Regardless, Gunflint Lake where I'll be is a ways east of the Quetico boundary. And also not in the BWCA so the "from Canada" permit does not apply either.

05/08/2019 02:52PM  
thegildedgopher: ",,,By the letter of the law, when I come back from a day-trip like this, I believe I am supposed to go immediately to the CBP station in Grand Marais and report my re-entry to the United States. My question is simple -- do others in the same situation actually do this? ..."

I've never done this in 20 years of Quetico trips... but know this is the requirement.
tonyyarusso
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05/08/2019 04:08PM  
I took my (motorized) boat from Gunflint to North last summer. The "ground" we set foot on to do so was between the banks for the channel (either underwater or individual rocks protruding) or on the US side, so you should be fine there. There is a rather nice-looking sand beach on the Canadian side of the far end of Gunflint that's a bit of an attractive nuisance though.
thegildedgopher
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05/08/2019 04:12PM  
bobbernumber3: "I've never done this in 20 years of Quetico trips... but know this is the requirement."

This is kind of all I was hoping to hear. I know that there are no guarantees and I could be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, etc. But we make judgement calls every day and I feel like this is just one of those times.
05/08/2019 04:50PM  
thegildedgopher: "
bobbernumber3: "I've never done this in 20 years of Quetico trips... but know this is the requirement."

This is kind of all I was hoping to hear. I know that there are no guarantees and I could be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, etc. But we make judgement calls every day and I feel like this is just one of those times."

Past performance doesn't guarantee future results.
billconner
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05/08/2019 05:27PM  
I tried to get a vlear answer on the reporting to US customs - calked IF, Pigeon River, Duluth, Chicago office, and Washington. No one will say either way.

Want to be squeaky legal? I-68 program and sat phone.

I-68

With RABC you can zig zag across the border gor a long ways. Of course permits and other documents if you fish.

Report when you exit the wilderness. Carry your passport. Ask forgiveness and plead ignorance if stopped while in.
05/08/2019 06:33PM  
didn't know there was an office in GM that was open anymore, thought the closest was up at the pigeon river border crossing. in any case, i'd try the call in version or the I68, although is that still a thing? when i lived on gunflint lake i had it one year and then wanted to renew it. i spent close to 1/2 hour going back and forth with officials (a border patrol officer, a border protection officer and a border crossing agent) who insisted i did not need it, so i left without giving them $16.

i think, sometimes, those agencies do not communicate with each other about what is needed. they even worked on convincing each other.
thegildedgopher
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05/08/2019 08:26PM  
tonyyarusso: "I took my (motorized) boat from Gunflint to North last summer. The "ground" we set foot on to do so was between the banks for the channel (either underwater or individual rocks protruding) or on the US side, so you should be fine there. There is a rather nice-looking sand beach on the Canadian side of the far end of Gunflint that's a bit of an attractive nuisance though."


that's reassuring, thank you.

thanks everyone for the input. mocha that's hilarious.

I will look into this I-68-thingamajig.
ROAM
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05/08/2019 10:23PM  
I answered this question in another thread last week and my post was immediately deleted for some reason. US Customs now has an app that you can use to report your return back to the US on border waters. It’s called ROAM. Just download the app and once you are in a spot where you can get service or WiFi report your return. Additionally, starting this summer a few resorts, including Gunflint Lodge, will have a kiosk where you can report your return.
mgraber
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05/08/2019 11:32PM  
flynn: "Don't you need a Quetico day pass to be on the Canadian side of the border for any reason other than happenstance travel? That is, if you are moving from point A to point B, and you cross the invisible line on a border lake, or you need to use a portage on the Canadian side, you don't need anything special. But, if you are sightseeing, or fishing, you need an RABC and a Quetico day pass, and if you are fishing, you also need an Ontario fishing license. Based on what I have read (not only general reading but what people have specifically stated in threads where I asked about this), if you are on the Canadian side for any reason other than travel, where you need no special permits, you need an RABC, Quetico day pass, and if fishing, an Ontario fishing license.


Hopefully someone can clear this up, because if this is true, then you will need to visit a Quetico ranger station to pay for day passes on the exact days you decide you will be fishing the Canada side (inconvenient if you ask me - how will I know which days the weather lets me fish over there?). Whatever the case, please let us know.

OH! And don't forget the confusion around the "From Canada" BWCA permit. You might need one of these on the days you choose to fish Q. One for every single day you choose to cross the border to Q and come back to the BW. Or so it seems. I have no idea. These rules seem so ridiculous to follow because if for any reason you have to deviate from a plan (likely because of weather), you have no choice but to break the law. It seems like BS to me. And, different rangers will tell you different things! It's as clear as mud."


That was what I was told last time I called to ask.
billconner
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05/09/2019 05:53AM  
flynn: "Don't you need a Quetico day pass to be on the Canadian side of the border for any reason other than happenstance travel? "


I believe so, assuming where you are on the Canadian side it's Quetico. Not all of Canada across the border from BWCAW is Quetico. Some is crownland, and no idea what you do there. Not sure but I believe some is La Verendrye Provincial Park. Haven't figured that one out. And of course first nation land to the west.

You can get an annual day pass. Day is $11.25, annual $175, summer season $125. I assume all in CA$. And that's a vehicle pass, so covers everyone in the canoe.
05/09/2019 11:44AM  
Reporting in for US customs in Ely last summer was literally about two minutes. I walked in, dude swiped my passport card and thanked me for reporting in.

He told me that soon (either this year or next) the process will be done with a tablet, and they were currently installing tablets at their Ely office. It'll be a video check-in, but he didn't expect it to take any longer. I think this season they'll still be staffing the offices as they shake down the new procedure, but the plan is that the Ely office at least won't be staffed in the future. He said it wouldn't mean any job cuts but they won't be in Ely anymore.
mgraber
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05/09/2019 12:22PM  
Just got off phone with Quetico office. You cannot cross the border into Quetico to fish or sightsee without a camping permit, a day pass, or a yearly vehicle permit in addition to an RABC. I know many do this, but they are technically in violation.

Also, I was told that both US and Canada do not allow criss crossing back and forth across the border except along the border for travel only. Many of us have received mixed messages about this, but that is the latest I have heard.

The way it was explained to me was why would a park that relies on permits for funding allow anyone to use that park without paying what everyone else pays? The RABC is just a substitute for going through customs, it is not paying for the "use" of Quetico park.

Buying an Ontario fishing license is likewise not paying anything towards the park. They expect us to pay our fair share for the use of the park regardless of where we come from or whether we set foot on the soil or camp.

Also, I was told of an incident of fishermen being fined for such use when fishing about a mile into the park. They had an RABC and fishing license, but rangers were checking permits.
thegildedgopher
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05/09/2019 01:00PM  
I won't dispute anything being said about Quetico, but just to clarify from the OP perspective -- I am not going to be in Quetico waters, period. :) I will be in La Verendrye, which I believe is classified as as a ‘Non-Operational Park’ and that no entry fees or permits are required. If this is incorrect I would appreciate being referred to an official source that says otherwise, because I've done a fairly exhaustive search but could've missed something.
billconner
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05/09/2019 05:13PM  
To mgraber re crisscrossing - previous Q superintendent said it was fine, but just have a permit the is valid from first to last day in Q - even if a 20 day permit and you are in Q only day 1 and 10. Buy a 365 day permit Jan 1 and come and go as you please. Just ask them if they'll take your 365 x $20 or so and let you come and go. The US re-entry is the one sticking point - whole reason I researched I-68 - for a bucket list trip Grand Portage to Lake of the Woods. Pretty sure it's possible, staying on both sides of border.

To thegildedgophr - I think La Verendrye is treated as crown land, which means Canadians can use it for free without permits. Non-Canadians have to pay or meet other requirements like outfit from a Canadian outfitter. (Some games played there.) Also pretty sure I heard Q staff complain that they had been assigned to watch over La Verendrye, so call Q office. Or not. Sometimes ignorance us a fine defense.

thegildedgopher
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05/10/2019 08:55AM  
billconner: "To thegildedgophr - I think La Verendrye is treated as crown land, which means Canadians can use it for free without permits. Non-Canadians have to pay or meet other requirements like outfit from a Canadian outfitter. (Some games played there.) Also pretty sure I heard Q staff complain that they had been assigned to watch over La Verendrye, so call Q office. Or not. Sometimes ignorance us a fine defense.


"


Thanks Billconner. It's a weird situation. If you go to ontarioparks.com and hit the "Parks" drop-down, La V isn't even on the list. If you google the park you can find that there is actually an official page at https://www.ontarioparks.com/park/laverendrye -- but there is only very basic info posted here, and nothing about fees. I sent an email to Ontario parks, if I get a response I'll post it here.

The only other info I've been able to scrounge up is from queticosuperior.org. They state "LaVerendrye is classified as a ‘Non-Operational Park’ and no entry fees or permits are required. There is a limit of 9 individuals per campsite, though there is no quota for groups entering the park."

I know that this organization doesn't make the rules so I'd prefer to hear it straight from Ontario Parks.
billconner
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05/10/2019 07:30PM  
You might get a quicker answer calling Q office.

PS - Please post your findings!
 
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