Please remind your group and other groups you run into; to be an ethical Wilderness steward. So, so many people. Big groups. High use at the campsites and portages.
1. Dead and down only. Do not cut green vegetation, not for firewood, to make room for you hammock or for a view. The campsites are so impacted that when the big trees blow over or die, they won't be replaced. The soil is so compacted, it's hard for other trees to grow.
2. Large groups; remember sound travels very far across a lake.
3. Do not remove the fire grates, do not build your fires ontop of fire grates. They are there for a reason. Wildfire is a very serious thing.
4. Firearms. Don't shoot into the water, don't shoot for fun.
5. Don't do what 'SurvivorMan' does. Your not surviving.
6. If you don't like the rules; stay out. Go to a campground to party.

Just a fresh season reminder. It's important. Don't be afraid to tell a group member or another group if they are doing something wrong and unethical.

It's an important place. Humans are SO disconnected from nature. Sit, listen, watch and push yourself to go a little further!

Thanks for the reminder. A good message. Unfortunately, those who read this probably already get it. Kinda like posting a notice inside a church that says you are welcome here.

Great advice, except I personally don’t agree with telling a group you don’t know that they are violating any policy. First of all, no matter how strongly I feel about following the rules and regulations, I have no authority to tell someone else they are violating.

Secondly, there's no better way to ruin your trip than getting into a fight because you feel you need to correct someone you don’t know.

Before anyone jumps on this with we have a group of big guys etc. etc. etc, you never know the reaction you will get. If you feel someone needs to be corrected, report them when you leave.

mutz: "Great advice, except I personally don’t agree with telling a group you don’t know that they are violating any policy. First of all, no matter how strongly I feel about following the rules and regulations, I have no authority to tell someone else they are violating.

Secondly, there's no better way to ruin your trip than getting into a fight because you feel you need to correct someone you don’t know.

Before anyone jumps on this with we have a group of big guys etc. etc. etc, you never know the reaction you will get. If you feel someone needs to be corrected, report them when you leave."

Exactly. I feel the urge constantly to take corrective action. This tale cured me of acting on that urge when I don’t have a tactical advantage:


BWCAW spree nets three-year sentences

Thank goodness we already follow these! lol I would add wear your life jackets... but I guess that could start a debate... so I won't. ;)

Anyone can mention to someone what the rules are and that they don't seem to be following them. Whether or not that is a good idea is certainly going to depend on the situation, and admittedly often its not prudent. There is a world of difference between clarifying the rules to what might be a rookie group and trying to set Barney straight.

One thing that might help in situations where judgement dictates no such discussion is trying to get some photos or video of the transgression and group. Last summer I saw a flagrant motor violation well within the BWCA. I got my camera, put on my zoom lens, and got a bunch of good shots. Ten days later at home, I sent them to the appropriate FS-LEO with details of the event.

Unfortunately with the popularity it will just become more of an issue as time goes on. I would never correct someone though. Not worth angering a psychopath who may have a weapon.

Jaywalker: " There is a world of difference between clarifying the rules to what might be a rookie group and trying to set Barney straight. "

This is a great point, and well stated.

"Don't be afraid to tell a group member or another group if they are doing something wrong and unethical."

When I worked for the USFS and US Fish and Wildlife Service I would correct/tell people if they were doing something wrong.

Once I retired I decided that it is not my place to tell others what to and not to do, they will probabally tell me to go fly a kite or worse.

mutz: "Great advice, except I personally don’t agree with telling a group you don’t know that they are violating any policy..."

Totally agree with the sentiment expressed.

Best to keep a non-confrontational attitude and let the USFS rangers do the policing.
Everybody knows the rules. Some blatantly ignore them, anyway. It's the way the world rolls, ya know?

Teach by example.

mychurchmyhome:
6. If you don't like the rules; stay out. Go to a campground to party.

I get where you are coming from with this list, but I don't agree with it. It isn't your place to tell someone they are being "unethical" campers when the majority of your list aren't actual rules, just guidelines. If I want to rock up into camp and bring a boombox, it's my right. Its a suggestion to other campers to be considerate and not be loud at camp (and one I agree with). But it is not a RULE that you have to be quiet.

Guns, you can shoot all you want as long as you are not 150 feet from camp, and not putting anyone in danger. Again, I would never do it, but it is not a RULE that you can't shoot guns into the water or for fun. In fact the national forest service actually has a video about HOW to shoot on national forest property safely, and for fun.

In my experience it is the people who try and impose their own rules on other groups that make the experience less enjoyable. Yes, there will be times when other campers don't do things the way you do, but that is a fact of camping, and if you don't like it.....as you say, stay out.

Hopefully we all have great experiences and no issues while we camp, but its public land, that is meant to be enjoyed by all, not just the ones who follow self imposed "ethical" camp practices.

jhb8426: "

mutz: "Great advice, except I personally don’t agree with telling a group you don’t know that they are violating any policy..."

Totally agree with the sentiment expressed."

+1 (or is it +2?)

Last year we did a loop from Sag to Sea gull. Every site we stopped at was clean. By then our last night we stayed at a site sea gull. The campsite was full of garbage. Trash in the fire pit. Green trees that had been hacked up. It was very disappointing.
Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way.

mjmkjun: "Best to keep a non-confrontational attitude and let the USFS rangers do the policing.
Everybody knows the rules. Some blatantly ignore them, anyway. It's the way the world rolls, ya know?"

I could not agree more. Right on.

I agree with easye515 this post is a little preachy.

Chieflonewatie: "I agree with easye515 this post is a little preachy. "

But a great name for a band.

I guess I thought the same thing at first. Especially when preaching to the choir. But the intent was likely a good jesture. Some comments were a little strong and such... never hurts to remind the choir. Like noted, you get back in there you see much less sign of mess and obvious carelessness. People as a whole are still pretty respectful, at least til they get back to civilization. Haha.

easye515: "

mychurchmyhome:
6. If you don't like the rules; stay out. Go to a campground to party.

I get where you are coming from with this list, but I don't agree with it. It isn't your place to tell someone they are being "unethical" campers when the majority of your list aren't actual rules, just guidelines. If I want to rock up into camp and bring a boombox, it's my right. Its a suggestion to other campers to be considerate and not be loud at camp (and one I agree with). But it is not a RULE that you have to be quiet.


Guns, you can shoot all you want as long as you are not 150 feet from camp, and not putting anyone in danger. Again, I would never do it, but it is not a RULE that you can't shoot guns into the water or for fun. In fact the national forest service actually has a video about HOW to shoot on national forest property safely, and for fun.


In my experience it is the people who try and impose their own rules on other groups that make the experience less enjoyable. Yes, there will be times when other campers don't do things the way you do, but that is a fact of camping, and if you don't like it.....as you say, stay out.


Hopefully we all have great experiences and no issues while we camp, but its public land, that is meant to be enjoyed by all, not just the ones who follow self imposed "ethical" camp practices. "

Your wrong it is a rule of excessive noise and disturbance in the BWCA and it has been enforced in the past.

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.

IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5127832.pdf

Again. I’m sure it’s a well known guideline. And one that may have been “enforced” in the sense that there were enough complaints that someone had to say something. But it’s not a rule or regulation according to the USFS. Unless I am missing it.

Sorry, double post.

TomT: "

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.

IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.



"

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with fees. Or very little anyway.

I think it's more travel time/logistical reasons, and just the pure ruggedness (no "established" campsites, and no latrines). It is a big ask to get many females to even camp at a state park with pit toilets, much less BWCA with open air latrines, much less no toilet at all in Quetico. Among the people I talk to about camping, that is always one of the first questions....'what are the bathrooms like'? If the answer is, "there are none", you are thinning the herd immensely right there.

Ladies of the BWCA/Quetico, please don't take offense to my generalization...it is nothing more than a generalization/observation, and I know there are many exceptions among you all.

TomT: "

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.

IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.



"

“Riff Raff”
Wow now that’s a statement. Because a person doesn’t have the money to go to Quetico in no way shape or form makes him “Riff Raff” and means he will trash a camp site, while another person who does have the money to go to Quetico is a better person who won’t trash a camp site.
Whether or not you will trash a campsite is determined by how you were raised, not how much you had or didn’t have when you were raised.

treehorn: "

TomT: "

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.


IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.




"

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with fees. Or very little anyway.


I think it's more travel time/logistical reasons, and just the pure ruggedness (no "established" campsites, and no latrines). It is a big ask to get many females to even camp at a state park with pit toilets, much less BWCA with open air latrines, much less no toilet at all in Quetico. Among the people I talk to about camping, that is always one of the first questions....'what are the bathrooms like'? If the answer is, "there are none", you are thinning the herd immensely right there.


Ladies of the BWCA/Quetico, please don't take offense to my generalization...it is nothing more than a generalization/observation, and I know there are many exceptions among you all."

So you are saying that its the ladies that are the riff raff in the BWCA? :)

Now that's funny.

I have seen trashed campsites in Quetico also. Yes less of them,but definitely there.

Wow.

I keep composing replies to this thread and deleting them. It isn't often that I am speechless.

Learningtofly: "

treehorn: "

TomT: "

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.



IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.





"

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with fees. Or very little anyway.



I think it's more travel time/logistical reasons, and just the pure ruggedness (no "established" campsites, and no latrines). It is a big ask to get many females to even camp at a state park with pit toilets, much less BWCA with open air latrines, much less no toilet at all in Quetico. Among the people I talk to about camping, that is always one of the first questions....'what are the bathrooms like'? If the answer is, "there are none", you are thinning the herd immensely right there.



Ladies of the BWCA/Quetico, please don't take offense to my generalization...it is nothing more than a generalization/observation, and I know there are many exceptions among you all."

So you are saying that its the ladies that are the riff raff in the BWCA? :) "

Oh man, I hope that's not the way anyone would read that. I probably worded it poorly.

My only point is that Quetico is less traveled because it's farther away from populated areas, and its more rustic style of camping (no toilets being a major part of that). Not because of the fees.

In no way did I mean women would be less respectful of any given rule/regulation.

mutz: "

TomT: "

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.


IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.




"

“Riff Raff”
Wow now that’s a statement. Because a person doesn’t have the money to go to Quetico in no way shape or form makes him “Riff Raff” and means he will trash a camp site, while another person who does have the money to go to Quetico is a better person who won’t trash a camp site.
Whether or not you will trash a campsite is determined by how you were raised, not how much you had or didn’t have when you were raised.
"

Let’s be real about this. Nobody’s breaking the bank to go to the BWCA or Quetico. Even with the higher fees and RABC/passport/fishing license requirements, we’re still talking about a week long trip costing only a couple hundred bucks. That’s pretty darn cheap for a wilderness vacation. I don’t think Tom was saying “riff raff” is people who don’t have money. I think maybe he meant that people who value LNT practices and fall further along the Oberholtzer/Sig Olson end of the spectrum in regards to wilderness conservation are willing to pay more to go to Quetico. So, maybe you get less people who trash sites there. Although, as PT said, it still happens even there. I just think maybe you misinterpreted what TomT was trying to say.

Tony

anthonyp007: "

mutz: "

TomT: "

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.



IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.





"

“Riff Raff”
Wow now that’s a statement. Because a person doesn’t have the money to go to Quetico in no way shape or form makes him “Riff Raff” and means he will trash a camp site, while another person who does have the money to go to Quetico is a better person who won’t trash a camp site.
Whether or not you will trash a campsite is determined by how you were raised, not how much you had or didn’t have when you were raised.
"

Let’s be real about this. Nobody’s breaking the bank to go to the BWCA or Quetico. Even with the higher fees and RABC/passport/fishing license requirements, we’re still talking about a week long trip costing only a couple hundred bucks. That’s pretty darn cheap for a wilderness vacation. I don’t think Tom was saying “riff raff” is people who don’t have money. I think maybe he meant that people who value LNT practices and fall further along the Oberholtzer/Sig Olson end of the spectrum in regards to wilderness conservation are willing to pay more to go to Quetico. So, maybe you get less people who trash sites there. Although, as PT said, it still happens even there. I just think maybe you misinterpreted what TomT was trying to say.


Tony"

Nope, it isn't about money. It is about snobbishness, a sense of superiority that the Quetico folks have when it comes to the BWCA. The "real" adventurers go to the Q, and the "riff-raff" go to the BWCA. It has been said over and over on this site, so TomT isn't breaking new ground here. I sometimes get very tired of it, as a person with more than 40 decades of canoe-tripping experience: in BWCA (my preferred place), in Quetico, in Algonquin, in Temagami, in forest service lands outside the BWCA, and on a river in Michigan. And yes, I am a woman. ;-)

While I understand the frustrations of the OP, I am in the group that wouldn't confront others about their adherence (or lack thereof) to the rules. I would just deal with it.

treehorn: "

Learningtofly: "

treehorn: "

TomT: "

Learningtofly: "Seemed the people that go deeper into the BWCA had more of appreciation of the beauty of the wilderness and wanted to keep it that way."

That's been my experience. I can't recall ever finding a trashed site more than one days paddling away from the entries. Maybe not in the BW but in Quetico that is the case.



IMO the BW entry fees are too low. Dare I say that Quetico's higher fees help keep the riff raff to a minimum. I'm happy to pay for that.





"

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with fees. Or very little anyway.



I think it's more travel time/logistical reasons, and just the pure ruggedness (no "established" campsites, and no latrines). It is a big ask to get many females to even camp at a state park with pit toilets, much less BWCA with open air latrines, much less no toilet at all in Quetico. Among the people I talk to about camping, that is always one of the first questions....'what are the bathrooms like'? If the answer is, "there are none", you are thinning the herd immensely right there.



Ladies of the BWCA/Quetico, please don't take offense to my generalization...it is nothing more than a generalization/observation, and I know there are many exceptions among you all."

So you are saying that its the ladies that are the riff raff in the BWCA? :) "

Oh man, I hope that's not the way anyone would read that. I probably worded it poorly.


My only point is that Quetico is less traveled because it's farther away from populated areas, and its more rustic style of camping (no toilets being a major part of that). Not because of the fees.


In no way did I mean women would be less respectful of any given rule/regulation."

I was just having some fun with you bud :)

The expectation/best case scenario here is that the group says "You're right, random guy, we are not being great wilderness stewards and I will change my behavior to be a better steward". I would think that this response happens .01% of the time, so I just avoid it and leave it up to proper authorities.

Nope, it isn't about money. It is about snobbishness, a sense of superiority that the Quetico folks have when it comes to the BWCA. The "real" adventurers go to the Q, and the "riff-raff" go to the BWCA. It has been said over and over on this site, so TomT isn't breaking new ground here. I sometimes get very tired of it, as a person with more than 40 decades of canoe-tripping experience: in BWCA (my preferred place), in Quetico, in Algonquin, in Temagami, in forest service lands outside the BWCA, and on a river in Michigan. And yes, I am a woman. ;-)


While I understand the frustrations of the OP, I am in the group that wouldn't confront others about their adherence (or lack thereof) to the rules. I would just deal with it."

Quetico and BWCA are basically the same. The farther in you go the better it becomes.

People want the experience and the ones bringing boom boxes/cans/bottles/kegs/etc aren't doing 10 portages. They are going to easy access areas.

Yep, this is the bottom line. Also, the BW has many many visitors per year so that statistic alone will cause more sites to be "wrecked". Put the Quetico fees on the BW and watch the visitors drop off. My only complaint with the BW is it's just too crowded unless you go mid September or later.

Tony, I appreciate you sticking up for me. Yes, by riff raff I'm talking about the parties with boom boxes and loads of alcohol. The people who poop next to the firepit and drop a big rock on it. Those people are Riff Raff. They usually don't get past a portage or two, thankfully.

dicecupmaker: "Teach by example."

right on Mitch!

Boy people are really sensitive...and looking for reasons to be offended.

T

The Ely area is by far the worst. Had 4 trips there and on 3 of them I packed out a lot of leftover supplies and garbage. Sawbill and Gunflint I rarely run into any issues.

timatkn: "Boy people are really sensitive...and looking for reasons to be offended.
T
"

It's the new culture. To "look" to find something offensive. I miss the old days I really do.

timatkn: "Boy people are really sensitive...and looking for reasons to be offended.


T
"

Spot on! We live in a time with more victims than offenders.

Yeah the world has been going to hell for a long time. At least some good things are coming out of it at the same time. Just not in the right way but oh well. Take what life will give you.

CityFisher74: "The expectation/best case scenario here is that the group says "You're right, random guy, we are not being great wilderness stewards and I will change my behavior to be a better steward".
..."

wouldn't that be a jaw-dropping moment! ;-)

Back in 1999 on was on a trip with 7 others and we were camped on Canoe lake. We decided we would take a little trip to see Johnson Falls. We took two boats over to the portage and placed them well off the portage with the pfd's and the paddles. We walked over the portage and I was the first one of the group at the trail up to the falls. While waiting I could tell there were other groups up at the falls. Another group came up from the Pine lake side and a young lady with a holier then thou wilderness attitude informed me that our group who was not all there yet had to leave because we were breaking the rules of having two many people in one spot. Even though we were there first. We did not respond to her and we did not listen to here either. My thought at the time was if there are two many people here why don't you hike your butt out of here.

If I had responded it would not have been nice.

CityFisher74: "The expectation/best case scenario here is that the group says "You're right, random guy, we are not being great wilderness stewards and I will change my behavior to be a better steward". I would think that this response happens .01% of the time, so I just avoid it and leave it up to proper authorities."

Its probably even a far lower percentage if "random guy" acts like a dictator.

I consider myself to be a very good steward of our public lands. If someone obnoxiously demands that I adopt their behaviors, I might voice displeasure.

CityFisher74: "The expectation/best case scenario here is that the group says "You're right, random guy, we are not being great wilderness stewards and I will change my behavior to be a better steward". I would think that this response happens .01% of the time, so I just avoid it and leave it up to proper authorities."

Exactly right. Confronting another group has a very small chance of changing their behavior. If they are doing something seriously wrong then collect as much info as you can about the group (any hull identification you can get is probably best) and then report them when you get out. Otherwise don't let the poor behavior of others dictate your enjoyment. Far too many people spend too much time looking at what everyone else is doing that they forgot to actually enjoy what they are supposed to be there for.

Since nobody commented I will. “4. Firearms. don't shoot for fun.”

Every time I shoot it’s for fun. There is nothing unethical about shooting. It’s even a sport that high school kids can learn. Last year was a slow year for me because I moved, only 6000 rounds fired at ranges. Every one was fun. I have hunted in the Superior National Forest before. I only took a firearm into the BWCA one time when I was young, never fired it. If someone wants to discharge a weapon and if it is a legal activity then by all means go ahead. Just keep 150 yards from camp or portages. Who am I to go around telling others not to shoot where it’s legal?

mutz: "Great advice, except I personally don’t agree with telling a group you don’t know that they are violating any policy. First of all, no matter how strongly I feel about following the rules and regulations, I have no authority to tell someone else they are violating"

I personally believe I do have the authority and responsibility to call something out if I see it. If not me, who? Feedback in the moment. I don't have the authority to enforce the rules, and I'm not going create a confrontation. Just a friendly reminder along with a smile. Depending on what I see and what response I get, I'll report it to those who can.

Hoaf: "

mutz: "Great advice, except I personally don’t agree with telling a group you don’t know that they are violating any policy. First of all, no matter how strongly I feel about following the rules and regulations, I have no authority to tell someone else they are violating"

I personally believe I do have the authority and responsibility to call something out if I see it. If not me, who? Feedback in the moment. I don't have the authority to enforce the rules, and I'm not going create a confrontation. Just a friendly reminder along with a smile. Depending on what I see and what response I get, I'll report it to those who can."

And that’s totally your call. You just have to make sure you are calling something out that’s against the RULES and not the “ethical guidelines”. That’s when bad confrontations happen.