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longblueveil
member (17)member
  
06/25/2019 10:47AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
I apologize in advance for too many words...

I'm heading to BWCA for a trip in late summer/early fall. We'll have 4 first timers in 2 canoes. 3 with decent paddling experience and one older guy with less experience. There is also at least some interest in fishing for a couple guys.

I'm not sure when/if any of us will make it back to BWCA and there's obviously a lot I'd love to see, most of which is included in the route below. That said, I certainly don't want to run our group into the ground. Miles include paddling and portaging. Generic formulas show this should be roughly 5 hours of transport time per day, but I do understand things happen and that won't necessarily be the case.

Day 1: Birch to Knife somewhere shortly passed Thunder Pt (~11 mi)
Day 2: To Hansen via Ottertrack/Ester (~13.5 mi)
Day 3: To Kekabic via Eddy (~11 mi)
Day 4: To Ima (~10 mi)
Day 5: To Splash (~10 mi)

Any spots on this route you would prioritize over others? Can't miss lakes/viewpoints/fishing spots?

Finally, I've thought about splitting up on day 2 and sending the fishermen to enjoy a leisurely day crossing S Arm Knife, while the more paddling-oriented boat does the Ottertrack loop. We could then meet up near Eddy Falls, reducing the Day 2 and 3 miles for the fishing boat. Would you have concerns about a group diverging and reconvening? I believe we are all pretty decent with navigation.
 
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06/25/2019 12:23PM  
I have not done that route. Without knowing the general fitness level of the group, whether you plan to double portage and if you do, whether the extra portage mileage is included, and what the weather will be like, assuming the mileage is correct . . . maybe too much for some.

Could be done if the weather cooperates. Five to six hours sounds about right. The time - to travel and time left to fish - will depend on how efficiently you pack, portage, and set up camp. By the second day you should have a pretty good idea of all that and what impact the weather may have. You have options to shorten if necessary.

twistertail
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06/25/2019 12:50PM  
I've only done 2 trips so I dont have a a lot of experience but that sounds like a lot to me. Fishing was the main goal on our trips so take that into consideration, we base camped and fished hard every day and didnt travel like you are planning. We got a tow from Moose lake and made it to the big island in the south arm of Knife lake by early afternoon, we didnt think it was a very hard day at all but we did have very nice conditions. Knife Eddy and Kekekabic were all beautiful lakes we enjoyed very much and did really well fishing on all them.

Sounds like a great loop but if it were me I think I would go to the south arm of knife instead of the north to shorten up the distance a little and be able to take my time and fish a little more.
06/25/2019 12:52PM  
I think it's totally doable, providing the wind/weather doesn't make you windbound on any particular day.

However, I'd suggest adding one day to your trip, keep the same rough itinerary, and spending two consecutive nights at one of the campsites, allowing everybody to recharge their batteries, relax, spend the day fishing more, exploring, and giving you some wriggle room in case the weather doesn't cooperate.

To each their own, but to me, it's a great feeling waking up in the BWCA and knowing you don't have to hustle up and break down camp. I look forward to enjoying a good leisurely breakfast, bringing a good book, and fishing the day away.

treehorn
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06/25/2019 12:57PM  
I guess the thing that stands out to me is the simple fact that you plan to travel every day. I know some people love that, but I also know many people like to take at least one day and kick their feet up and not have to pack up and move. Make sure you make this expectation known, and even still, be prepared for some contingent of the group to say (at some point)..."this is a sweet campsite on an awesome lake...remind me again why we are packing up and moving?"
treehorn
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06/25/2019 01:34PM  
johndku beat me to it!
cyclones30
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06/25/2019 03:04PM  
We had sort of a similar plan for a trip we just did a few weeks ago. We'd never been to that part of the park before so it was new to us, but my wife and I are fairly experienced and we took a couple that had never been before.

Here's my trip report, have some travel times in there for sections you'll be doing.
https://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=1161469&forumID=19&confID=1

We took a 6:30 tow from La Tourells and we were paddling by 7. We were on Knife at 10 and all those portages are easy. Another hour and we were at Thunder Point. Another hour and we were at camp in the bay just before the narrows into Little Knife. My wife and I could have kept going but seeing the morale of the others we decided to stop there around lunch time.

One of our initial goals was to do the next part of your route up Ottertrack and down Hanson and out via South Arm of Knife. After discussing options with the group we instead wanted to dodge the wind we'd been dealing with and went Amoeber to Cherry. We enjoyed a perfect layover day on Cherry and then went to SAK for a night and paddled most of the way back before spending a night on Birch to catch our 8am tow the next morning.

My thoughts: Have goals but be flexible. We never made it to Ottertrack and that's ok. We had a great time on the smaller lakes and have memories and pictures from there we'd have never gotten on Ottertrack or Ester. It's all a great area and you have to remember you're on vacation. Enjoy it, sometimes it's ok for it not to be a death march on portages and paddle forever just to check a box. (that said, my wife and I will do that on occasion)
Michwall2
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06/25/2019 03:19PM  
Too much travel:
I do not plan a trip that requires travel every day. First, I don't like to plan a death march where you have to be somewhere no matter what the conditions dictate. Second, there are too many variables that could require a layover. Wind is the most obvious. You are planning to paddle some big lakes. I have been on SAK when a group of strong paddlers couldn't go a quarter mile to check out a campsite around the corner. Injury is another reason for a layover. One of your group turns an ankle or tweaks a knee and a one day layover to let it rest is not unreasonable and could save some very expensive doctoring later.

Splitting up on travel days:
Unless you are carrying two complete sets of camping gear, I would not split up on a travel day. Especially with newbies. Again too many variables. Orienteering along the border may seem easy, but then again not so much. Maps are wrong. How many islands did we just pass? Portages start on the other side of the creek than the map says. There are false portages out there. I have taken the wrong portage out of a lake on a cloudy day. Only when we were paddling the wrong lake and it didn't look anything like the map said it should did I/we realize our mistake and have to backtrack. Can your group do that? Can they stay out of Canadian waters and not end up in Quetico by mistake?
What happens if the two groups miss the appointed place and time? Are you prepared to wait at the Eddy portage end all night for your partners? Lots of things could happen and you have no way of knowing how long you will have to wait. Injury, missed direction, wind, storms, darkness, etc.? Who has the shelter? The food? The cooking gear? Who is going to spend a cold and perhaps dangerous night? Stay together.
Want to do different day trips out and back to the same campsite? Great. That's a different ballgame. Everyone knows where the gear and food are and where they have to come back to.

I like the attitude of others that say make it more laid back. Make it more fun. Give yourself some flexibility through a more reasonable route. Save some for the next trip.


06/25/2019 03:52PM  
treehorn: "johndku beat me to it!"


And you both beat me to it! I think adding a layover day is an excellent idea!
longblueveil
member (17)member
  
06/25/2019 04:03PM  
Got it. Sounds like i need to schedule a layover on knife. Everyone can fish and relax thay day, while I neurotically commandeer a Canoe to complete the Ottertrack loop. :)
montanapaddler
member (33)member
  
06/25/2019 04:36PM  
johndku: "I think it's totally doable, providing the wind/weather doesn't make you windbound on any particular day.


However, I'd suggest adding one day to your trip, keep the same rough itinerary, and spending two consecutive nights at one of the campsites, allowing everybody to recharge their batteries, relax, spend the day fishing more, exploring, and giving you some wriggle room in case the weather doesn't cooperate.


To each their own, but to me, it's a great feeling waking up in the BWCA and knowing you don't have to hustle up and break down camp. I look forward to enjoying a good leisurely breakfast, bringing a good book, and fishing the day away.


"


"Nothing days," as we refer to them, are very important. A wind day can mean no travel at all so scheduling slack is 100% necessary in the BWCAW.

As far as the level of ambition of your trip, I offer this advice without actually looking at your route on a map. My first BWCA trip with friends as an adult, we had a very ambitious itinerary. There were a couple days where we traveled pretty much til dusk or didn't reach our objective lake. It was a great trip, but we all decided that we'd rather take it easier on future trips and we've never scheduled such rough travel days since then. Hanging out in camp and fishing/swimming/having some whiskey around the campfire is very much a part of the BWCA experience and you have to leave time for it.

Also, distance traveled per day has nothing to do with difficulty in the BWCA. I would say that amount and length of portages is the #1 determinant of difficulty. Crooked lake is something like 15 miles end to end and I would consider that a very leisurely day with no portages. Long portages can be miserable, especially if you have more than 1, and frequent shorter portages can slow you down significantly since every landing and launch takes time.
jillpine
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06/25/2019 04:54PM  
treehorn: "I guess the thing that stands out to me is the simple fact that you plan to travel every day. I know some people love that, but I also know many people like to take at least one day and kick their feet up and not have to pack up and move. Make sure you make this expectation known, and even still, be prepared for some contingent of the group to say (at some point)..."this is a sweet campsite on an awesome lake...remind me again why we are packing up and moving?""

Even if it's not too much physically for your group, it's a certain kind of trip mentally that you have planned. As others have said, but especially this above, it's really special to simply wake up, have coffee and watch the lake until
or go fish or read or do yoga or whatever floats your boat in the silence there. It is especially nice if you're wind bound or storm bound or have had a string of soggy days and then get a day to dry out. When you say experienced paddlers, then you know wind and wind bound hours, which can turn into days. My brother and I once spent about 20 hours at a portage, waiting for wind to settle. It settled at midnight and that's when we left the shore. And it started up again promptly at 8am. So wind and weather are factors that may be overlooked in your travel plans. Injury, fatigue may be others but that's perhaps more in your control. Also, as others have said, if you find that special site and good fishing, some may really be reluctant to leave. Knife can be that way. Nice sites, good fishing. Just some thoughts. There are those trips that relax a person by nature of the adventure and strenuous activity. There are other trips that relax a person by base camping or "out and back". Yours is the former. So my advice, fwiw, is to check in with the others and say, "mental/physical" trip or "don't feel need to cover so much ground" trip. They obviously very different trips; the reasons dictating one or the other may not be as obvious for a person's first time there. Have a blast!! LNT!
flynn
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06/25/2019 08:50PM  
Your route looks awesome and I fully support it. As long as everyone in the group is healthy (not sick or recovering) and well-nourished and hydrated, and is mentally prepared for 6 to 8 hours of travel on travel days, I don't see any real problem with this route. It is crucial that everyone be on the same page. If someone has concerns with length of a particular day, or too many consecutive travel days, you want that to come up as early in the planning process as possible. Go over the route, talk route options/contingencies if you have bad weather or an injury, and make sure everyone is comfortable with the level of effort required for the trip. If everyone accepts that it won't be easy (but not soul crushing hard) and is willing to put in some hard work for the beauty of the BWCA, and you hope for the best but plan for the worst, you should be just fine.

It seems some people don't like to travel every day and are telling you that you shouldn't do it because they don't like it. I like to see a variety of landscapes and experience new areas and the feeling of being in a new wilderness all the time. But I like a balance. 2 days in, 2-3 days of rest, then 1-2 days of travel, then 1-3 days of rest, then 1-2 days out. Since you are only doing 5 days, this is not really possible. If you cut out Ottertrack/Hanson, you can get a layover day. It is nice to wake up and know you don't need to tear anything down or get your butt in gear on a time table. I have yet to endure any "death marches" as I guess my friends and I have done a good job estimating time and effort for a route (doing research on the landscape and portages) and so we have not put ourselves in a situation where we are ready to fall over and die. However, on my trip a few weeks ago, my 12 hour, 22 mile day from EP16 to Lady Boot Bay (on LLC) was the closest thing to a death march I've endured. It took raw stamina. Just keep paddling. Nothing else you can do. And we all made it out OK. :)

Don't be afraid to travel every day. Your current route is definitely do-able for people who are not "in shape". I'm not and my friends weren't when we did a similar route, but we're not grossly out of shape either. We stayed on Knife>Kek(3)>Fraser>Ima>Ensign(2), and that cadence with the layover days was perfect. That being said, I don't think I would have been so tired out from any one of the travel days that I would have had a very difficult time with all of them being travel days. My day on LLC this year, on the other hand, definitely took it out of everyone, and though we planned on at least 3 nights there, we pretty much needed at least 1 layover day just for our hands, arms, and spirits to recover.

Be mindful that the days are significantly shorter in the early fall than in spring/summer. You don't want to be looking for a campsite at dusk if you had a particularly long day, say due to wind or whatever. 8 hours of travel is about the limit of what you probably want to do, as the sun rises later as well, so getting up at 5am to leave a site early means packing up in the dark (for part of it anyway) so you can avoid looking for a site and setting up in the dark, if that is a concern on a particular day.

Depending on what you want to fish for, a layover day on Knife or Kekekabic would be the place to do it, IMO. Knife is a grand slam lake and a great place to spend some time in general. Kekekabic is beautiful but takes some more work to get to, but you are rewarded with a big deep lake full of lake trout (protip: the site just west of the Pickle portage is excellent). I wouldn't do a layover on Ima but when I was there it was windy and gloomy so I didn't enjoy it. There are less people out around Kek and the water is crystal clear on Knife and Kek so I prefer those areas.

So, to recap... do your research on the landscape (read portage reviews and trip reports for the areas you are thinking of visiting) and see if that level of effort is acceptable to everyone in the trip. Have backup plans in case wind holds you back. Get everyone on the same page so they all know the route and how much effort is going to be expected of them each day. You don't want to be fighting over "I didn't think it would be this hard/take this long" kind of stuff. Bring some determination and good snacks to keep you going.

Last bit: that whole area is great, especially the NAK/SAK/Kek area. If you end up changing your route a little bit to spend time up near Cherry, you really shouldn't miss it. It's a beauty. The portage from Hanson is a tough one though so be prepared for that if you do go. I'm dying to get back there.
06/25/2019 11:21PM  
Great area great route. You can shorten it different way too if weather or good fishing slows ya down. Have fun
06/26/2019 08:58AM  
Rest days are essential. You need to give people a chance to experience everything in the boundary waters, including the campsite. You ever spent the day at the beach and just enjoyed being there? You can do the same thing at the campsite and just enjoy your time in the wilderness. Paddling slowly and just seeing the lake is great too, fishing works well for that, but that doesn't come without some down time. Same as going for a walk after getting back from a big hike, paddling around the lake will not be enjoyable after 5+ hours of travel to get to your destination. Been there, done that. You can do it and be glad you did it, but that's not the same as doing it when you are well rested and full of energy.
06/26/2019 09:03AM  
Welcome to BWCA.com longblueveil.
I have done a similar route a few times but have always opted to the south arm of Knife and up over the steep portage to Bonnie and into Kekekabic. The island site on Kek is awesome and there is a ribbon rock at the landing. We would then stop on Fraser or Thomas with Ima the last night. I generally like to travel unless weather prohibits it but staying on one site two nights is always an option. The trip I described we would travel from about 9-3 allowing time to enjoy the morning, relax in the afternoon and not push ourselves but if weather had held us up we could have broken camp early and pushed hard jumping to the next site on our trip.
Overall a great route with cliffs and big lakes to meandering streams and waterfalls. A good taste of the BWCA. You will find lots of trip reports with photos and comments about fishing, camp sites and more to see in the area. Enjoy your planning and your trip.
06/26/2019 09:06AM  
longblueveil: "....Would you have concerns about a group diverging and reconvening?."

Uhm, I have not done a multi-canoe trip in many years, but I think this would be considered a violation of the regulations. As I recall, your group gets one permit and needs to be able to present it to rangers at any time. How a ranger would define a group as "together" is uncertain - they would surely understand some people in a group go out fishing while others stay in camp or exploring the lake you are camped on, but travelling on different lakes at the same time?? I don't think that would fly.

I'd double check with a ranger station before you finalize your plans. If anyone tells you you will probably be fine, I'd ask if they mean you are unlikely to get caught or if they think you are acting within the regulations.

If I'm wrong at interpreting the regs, please someone chime in and correct me.
Nordstjernen
member (44)member
  
06/26/2019 09:46AM  
With that many travel days in a row I highly recommend single portaging if at all possible. Those miles per day will be a piece of cake if you get a portage system down and you put people that can actually steer in the sterns. You will have plenty of time to relax and explore.
2.5 mph average puts you at 5 or 6 hours of traveling per day, with your plan. I can tell you its possible to go much faster than that. However, It's also very easy to go much slower if you find yourself in a group that insists on extended breaks at every portage (even if you are single portaging) Portages are your number 1 pace killers.

If you are double or triple portaging with a group that can't travel in a straight line, you will be in for lonng days.

Have a backup plan if you find out your group is not efficient on the first day. The group can only travel as fast as the slowest pair/portager...
If I find myself leading an inefficient group, I will often switch up my goals and push them really hard for one monster day early on, and reward them with an extra zero day with a shorter overall plan. A little bit of hardship early on makes the rest of the trip feel like a break. Then split up the monster day into a couple more leisurely exit days on the way out.
06/26/2019 09:50AM  
I'll disagree that rest days are essential. I used to schedule them and we were bored wandering around camp. But it depends on your group.

What you describe sounds like a trip I'd enjoy quite a bit - I like about 10-13 miles per day, moving every day. But I've also made a couple dozen trips to the BWCA and go with other people who've done the same.

So I think what you describe is ambitious for a first time trip. If everybody is physically fit (especially the person without experience) and you all agree that you want a trip that involves a lot of paddling, you should be okay. If not, you need to reduce mileage.

Also, I don't know this specific route but a trip with lots of portages (my preference) is very different from a trip with few portages (most people's preference), and can really impact distance and experience. A day that covers 10 miles of ground is a lot more than 10 miles if it includes a lot of portages and you aren't single portaging. Even if you *are* single portaging, a 10 mile day with several portages is a lot more time-consuming than a 10 mile day with none, unless you have a well honed portage routine (and you don't).

Don't split up on a day when you're covering ground. It's a great way to get permanently separated, especially since you haven't been in the BWCA before.

Finally, while I don't typically schedule rest days, I do think you need to know ways to cut distance from your trip if you're over committed or if weather changes. Alternatively, you need to have enough buffer in your distances that you could make up an entire day's mileage in the other days if you lose a day to weather - I've done 20 mile days in portage-heavy areas before, so I don't worry much about it. But that seems unlikely on this trip, so you should have ways of reducing the mileage if you need to.

longblueveil
member (17)member
  
06/26/2019 10:49AM  
Wow so much great feedback. Thanks everyone!

I hadn't thought about the permit issue with regards to splitting up. I'll put that idea away, as it was probably a bad one in the first place.

This route was very much a toned down version of my initial thoughts. The few canoe/camp trips I've done before were very much dawn to dusk affairs with long food/hike breaks spread throughout. While I like to run myself ragged on vacation, I do get that "type 2 fun" isn't the same for everyone.

I think I'll look at the plausibility of a base camp near thunderpoint. Then anyone who wants to paddle more can take day trips to Ottertrack/Cherry. I'd be a little sad about missing some of that southern route. The narrows between thomas/hatchet and Jordan/Ima/Cattyman look like really neat spots.
06/26/2019 11:08AM  
Your group can split up during the day as long as you're all camping on the same site every night. The bottom of the permit will have tear-off stubs which can be given to other canoes in your group. It's basically a mini permit which can be given to rangers on demand, to prove that you're allowed to be in the area.
Thwarted
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06/26/2019 11:27AM  
This is all great insight so I will only reiterate one thing. Splitting up and rejoining on a new lake/site in the evening sounds easy, but it is not. It is like going to the mall with the idea of meeting again somewhere, but with no set time and no cell phone to help.

We have a rule that we never leave a lake while we are moving camp unless the entire group is together at the beginning of the portage. Visiting another lake and returning to an established camp is another thing. We have wasted a half day and tons of energy trying to regroup after separating. Once but never again.

I have heard of other groups not finding each other for several days in a situation where one group has the kitchen and the other the shelters. Even with duplicated equipment, I would not do it.
06/26/2019 01:02PM  
mirth: "Your group can split up during the day as long as you're all camping on the same site every night. The bottom of the permit will have tear-off stubs which can be given to other canoes in your group. It's basically a mini permit which can be given to rangers on demand, to prove that you're allowed to be in the area.
"

Thank you for the clarification! I stand corrected.
cyclones30
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06/26/2019 02:12PM  
Jaywalker: "
mirth: "Your group can split up during the day as long as you're all camping on the same site every night. The bottom of the permit will have tear-off stubs which can be given to other canoes in your group. It's basically a mini permit which can be given to rangers on demand, to prove that you're allowed to be in the area.
"

Thank you for the clarification! I stand corrected. "


Yep, each boat gets their own version of the same permit. I had the main sheet and our 2nd boat had one of the tear off portions with their name and same permit info. As long as you're camping at one site they can split up during the day and everyone still has proof
Nelsonti
member (12)member
  
06/26/2019 10:07PM  
A lot of great comments on this. It all comes down to the goal of trip for the entire group. Is it to see as much of the BWCA as possible? Is it to reconnect with nature, reconnect with friends? That's the critical question. It has to be a group decision on how much "work" people want to put in. The first BWCA trip I did was 50 miles in 4 days and although fun, it was the most miserable BWCA trip I've done because we never stopped to enjoy ourselves! I'd recommend just making sure you sync with everyone else and plan for time to just enjoy the area.
 
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