Thanks to a gracious member on here I've been able to paddle an Advantage. Tonight I tried to compare my speed with a carbon bent shaft canoe paddle vs every day kayak paddle I had for my kayak. In short straight runs I timed them to be the same and in a loop around an island I also timed myself basically identical.

When paddling hard and mostly in a straight line, is one typically faster than the other? I like the solid, rigid feel of the carbon since it feels like all my energy is going into moving the boat. My kayak paddle has noticeable flex when under a load and to me it feels like I'm wasting some power. True? My times were the same...but my kayak paddle isn't anything special and is not extra long like I've seen others talk about for use in a canoe. Any thoughts are welcome! I'll be using some sort of canoe or kayak in a part if a race later this summer. Doing some research in advance....

Really dependent on what you're better at. Advantage is designed for hit and switch with a bent shaft- probably the most efficient way to drive that hull. But if you can't switch quickly and smoothly or if your stroke does not optimize the mechanical advantage of the bent a double blade might drive you faster. Paddling properly with a bent will allow you to use more of the energy expended to move the hull forward. The farther away from the center line of the boat that your paddle moves through the water the more your stroke pushes the hull off line (yaw). This is the main source of inefficiency in a double blade.

I had my first trip in a solo canoe this May so I am hardly an expert! But this what I learned from my limited experience so far.

I paddled a rented Wenonah Prism with a sliding woven bench seat. I had a single 40 lb pack and the canoe trimmed very well with the seat and my 200 lb self as far forward as possible and the pack directly behind me. The canoe tracked really well with a single pack and handled steady 8-12” rolling waves 10-15 degrees either side of the bow nicely. Some splashes but no major water over the bow. It felt slow to turn though. It also felt a little tippy initially but I soon got used to it. The Prism did not have a foot rest which I would like to try as I hear it helps. I brought both a kayak and canoe paddle.

On my short May solo I had generally terrible weather. The first three days I had a consistent 10-15 mph headwinds with frequent gusts up to 25-30 mph and rain showers. The double bladed paddle felt like a godsend! Without it I doubt I would have made much forward progress and I had to greatly reduce my daily paddling distance goals. I used a carbon kayak paddle in a 260 cm length. When I had to make a few dodgy turns through broadside rolling waves the kayak paddle was nice for quick braces on either side.

On my last morning as I was paddling out—of course—I got 0-3 mph winds, mirror lake surfaces and cornflower blue skies. I finally broke out the carbon bent shaft canoe paddle I had also brought. It took some getting used to after three days of using the kayak paddle. I was slower with the single blade paddle but I also need much more practice with it in a solo canoe. I had a firm deadline to meet a tow boat at the Newfound Lake-Splash portage so after about 30 minutes of what felt like OK but not great speed down the entire length of Vera Lake I switched back to the kayak paddle and managed to paddle the entire length of Ensign Lake (~4.2 miles) in 90 minutes (~3 mph) without breaking a sweat.

I will again bring the two paddles on my July solo. I will try to get more time with the single blade paddle if the weather cooperates better. The learning curve with the double blade paddle in a solo canoe seemed much easier.

This was empty other than me and I'm about 160 lbs. I was paddling hard to simulate a race tempo and whatever I end up paddling will be empty as well I'd hope. If that changes anything. (If anyone has a race-y boat they'd be willing to let me borrow for a weekend in August that would be amazing)

Maybe if I had a carbon or nicer kayak paddle I wouldn't feel like I was bending it like a wet noodle?

I paddled and raced an Advantage with a bent Shaft for many years. With a good sit and switch technique you'll go along with ease and speed if that's your goal. Many videos to help you with that. I have a high quality Carbon Kayak paddle and with use it from time to time.I can't say which is faster because my Kayak paddled technique is not nearly as good as my bent shaft paddling technique. I just recently purchased an other Advantage after a several year hiatus. Looking forward to it.

a series of tech articles. Single blade and why..
technique

Chapter 5 and 11

Written by a successful racer.

I think Banksiana and Blatz nailed it. It depends on you and whether you have better technique and endurance with a bent shaft canoe paddle or a kayak paddle. I owned a Souris River Jensen Solo 16 which is similar to an Advantage and although I bought a long kayak paddle I hated using it and never developed good technique but on the other hand I had total confidence in using a canoe paddle and knew for sure I could paddle hard for miles on end and still always have plenty of reserve strength for a sprint or strong finish. Years ago when I bought a Flashfire I was told that someone won a race in one using a kayak paddle so I would not doubt that if I had a twin that trained constantly with a kayak paddle they might have a slight advantage. The length does not add power (it will reduce your cadence) it just helps you minimize banging into your canoe gunnels with the kayak paddle.

When my wife and I are paddling a tandem and want to cover water, all I do is sit and switch. Not to say I'm perfect, but I don't J stroke or feather or anything when we're in go mode. I paddle as many times on a side until I need to correct and vice versa. Thanks guys

On kayak paddle length: I think the reason people use long kayak paddles,in solo canoes is because a low angle stroke prevents drips into the canoe. Performance kayaking is done with shorter paddles and a high angle stroke that gets close to a vertical canoe paddle. So, I wouldn’t expect a longer paddle to make you faster. A stiffer one might help a bit.

I do agree that the most important thing is technique.

Blatz: "I paddled and raced an Advantage with a bent Shaft for many years. With a good sit and switch technique you'll go along with ease and speed if that's your goal. Many videos to help you with that. I have a high quality Carbon Kayak paddle and with use it from time to time.I can't say which is faster because my Kayak paddled technique is not nearly as good as my bent shaft paddling technique. I just recently purchased an other Advantage after a several year hiatus. Looking forward to it."

I also took a hiatus from the Advantage and returned a few years later. Kind of like re-marrying your ex-wife. ;-)

I think I’m faster in my magic with my 9oz zav bent but I still mostly trip with my ONNO carbon. I find at a lazy to moderate pace I’m faster with the double, like the curve on a graph for effort over speed is different. I think it’s all about the combo, I’m a bigger guy and with a good size pack my magic is drafting a good bit of water and it’s not a terribly high sided boat to begin with. So this setup lends itself to double use very easily, my ONNO is adjustable from 245-255, if I want to go fast and hard I bring it in to 245 and it motors. If I’m feeling lazy and barely want to put in a full stroke I bring it out to 255. Contrast this to a buddy who rented a prism, bigger boat, lighter weight guy, higher sides, short crappy rental double, he hated it and I did too, very hard to get a good high angle stroke, banging of the sides, very bad set up.

yellowcanoe: " a series of tech articles. Single blade and why..
technique


Chapter 5 and 11


Written by a successful racer."

my, that was technical.

mr.barley: "

Blatz: "I paddled and raced an Advantage with a bent Shaft for many years. With a good sit and switch technique you'll go along with ease and speed if that's your goal. Many videos to help you with that. I have a high quality Carbon Kayak paddle and with use it from time to time.I can't say which is faster because my Kayak paddled technique is not nearly as good as my bent shaft paddling technique. I just recently purchased an other Advantage after a several year hiatus. Looking forward to it."

I also took a hiatus from the Advantage and returned a few years later. Kind of like re-marrying your ex-wife. ;-)
"

I would prefer to think of it as marrying the one that got away. I have an ex wife

I use a bending branches slice - i think the 260 - in myt
Tranquility and love it. I tried a Swift Prospector 14 Pack and it moved very nice with a yak paddle. I think you should try both and simply see which feels best. Everyone is different.

I got to paddle a solo canoe a couple of trips. I took both the straight paddle and a kayak paddle. I found that I could paddle faster with the kayak paddle. Maybe it was my technique because others say they like a regular paddle.

I'm faster with my carbon fiber double-blade, but I switch it up and use both as the double aggravates some elbow issues I have.

Can go all day with the single.

I definitely carry both when soloing.

sns: "I'm faster with my carbon fiber double-blade, but I switch it up and use both as the double aggravates some elbow issues I have.


Can go all day with the single.


I definitely carry both when soloing. "

Interesting, as i carry both but single blade aggravates a shoulder condition, probably a bone spur.

I believe defining your watercraft first and your paddle type 2nd will have more effect on your race results.

yellowcanoe: " a series of tech articles. Single blade and why..
technique


Chapter 5 and 11


Written by a successful racer."

Holy crap, yeah that's technical. Thanks!

DanCooke: "I believe defining your watercraft first and your paddle type 2nd will have more effect on your race results.
"

Thanks, I'm still trying to figure out what I might be able to rent or borrow. Most people are in fast/long kayaks but there was at least one solo canoe last year. They all blew past me in my recreational 12' old town kayak.

Oh, I remember you discussing it last year. You were racing against Epic kayaks. Dan’s got it right. And anything will be faster than the kayak you paddled last year.

Folks here are just too nice. Well I can be an old fart sometimes so I will point out this:
Double bladed paddles are for kayaks. That's why people call them kayak paddles.
Single blades are for canoes.
For double blades to be efficient, you need a very low seating position like in a kayak or a pack boat. And then the watercraft needs to be narrow and the kayak paddle fairly short and used with a high angle stroke.
Canoes, you sit higher and a single blade is more efficient.
I see lots of people inefficiently swinging around long heavy double blades in their canoes because of the mistaken idea that they have better boat control or are faster with the double blade.
Well it sucks to double blade a canoe.
So people buy cheap little plastic kayaks, because they can steer them easier with a double blade, than they can control their canoe with a single blade.
Kinda sad. Then these people take their kayaks on ill-informed trips in the BWCA and discover how portaging a kayak sucks. Sitting in a kayak all day sucks. Fishing from a kayak sucks.
My opinions will surely offend some snowflakes out there! Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the average recreational paddler and amateur recreational racer would be served much better by a decent canoe with a rudder on it. gasp, the horror!! But think about this, the most efficient long distance canoe ever made has a rudder and the builder holds distance records like no other.
flame away.
Joe

joewildlife: "Folks here are just too nice. Well I can be an old fart sometimes so I will point out this:
Double bladed paddles are for kayaks. That's why people call them kayak paddles.
Single blades are for canoes.
For double blades to be efficient, you need a very low seating position like in a kayak or a pack boat. And then the watercraft needs to be narrow and the kayak paddle fairly short and used with a high angle stroke.
Canoes, you sit higher and a single blade is more efficient.
I see lots of people inefficiently swinging around long heavy double blades in their canoes because of the mistaken idea that they have better boat control or are faster with the double blade.
Well it sucks to double blade a canoe.
So people buy cheap little plastic kayaks, because they can steer them easier with a double blade, than they can control their canoe with a single blade.
Kinda sad. Then these people take their kayaks on ill-informed trips in the BWCA and discover how portaging a kayak sucks. Sitting in a kayak all day sucks. Fishing from a kayak sucks.
My opinions will surely offend some snowflakes out there! Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the average recreational paddler and amateur recreational racer would be served much better by a decent canoe with a rudder on it. gasp, the horror!! But think about this, the most efficient long distance canoe ever made has a rudder and the builder holds distance records like no other.
flame away.
Joe


"

This old fart is burning with desire to correct the occasionally offensive misstatements here.

Kayaks were paddled with both single and double blade paddles for hundreds of years by the Aleuts and others.

A decked canoe was paddled with a double blade paddle all over Europe more than 150 years ago by John MacGregor.

It will come to news as many kayakers from the last several thousand years, including this one, that sitting in a kayak all day sucks.

Finally, whatever point you attempted to make was severely undercut by the right-wing sneering about “snowflakes.”

Opinions can never be categorized as a misstatement, except by the opinion holder if he misstated his own opinion.

And you bring politics into it because I used the word "snowflake?" Oh please. Lighten up.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to call anybody a snowflake, who gets offended by opinions and/or facts they don't agree with. If those characteristics are borne more by those on the Left or the Right, it doesn't make any difference to me. Snowflakes are snowflakes. I might have used a more feline-derived word, but I don't want to offend anybody ;)


Joe

Verlin Kruger used a rudder because his trips took him on the Great Lakes and Oceans. I met him a couple of times. Once at the Finlandia Clean water Challenge. His first trips used a regular rather large canoe sans rudder.

"Opinions can never be categorized as a misstatement,"
"snowflake?" Oh please. Lighten up"

Absolutely, some though like to carry conceived slights as a chip on their shoulders.

I still consider doubles used in flatwater canoeing as 'tools of the deranged, causing warts and other skin problems. Top it all off I am a right wing conservative. If that has anything to do with the choice of watercraft propulsion I have failed to figure that out.

butthead

Thanks for the actual responses. I figured I'd just let this thread die but I did take the Advantage back out and on flat water I timed myself with the kayak and single paddle.

I was probably at about my max output for both (with a fishing rest in between so I wasn't tired for the 2nd set) I ended up being 20 sec faster over 5 min with the kayak paddle than the single blade and I felt "less winded" if that's a thing too with the double blade. Nothing scientific, nor have I watched any technique videos or that....just put my butt in the seat and paddled hard with each.

So....so far that's my answer. Until I change boats or dramatically change technique. Thanks everyone! (minus the useless banter)

The Advantage is a great canoe for both bent and double. Use both! I've owned 2 Advantage in the 80s and 90s and have one being delivered next month. Paddle On.

I really like a Yak when it is windy. But I take both.

I dont get alot of time in my solo, although i paddle just fine in a tandem, its a different story in my solo. I paddle 3 strokes and have to switch, i try j stroke but struggle to feel stable doing this with a bent paddle, at the end as i push out i feel like im leaning out to much, not sure if others experience this. So i do bring a kayak paddle as i feel more confident due to my lack of experience solo paddling with a canoe paddle. I paddle alot with the canoe paddle while on a solo trip, but most long paddles are with a kayak paddle.

if you were able to match your single blade time, with a double blade, the very first time you tried the double blade, I would say that with a bit of experience you would find the double faster.

but - it's complicated. How good is your single blade 'J stroke', vs double blade 'forward stroke'? Some people are just built differently. I feel quite a bit of bicep stress when paddling a canoe (with a canoe paddle). Since the bicep is a very weak muscle, that tells me I'm better built to paddle a kayak with a double blade (I have long skinny arms but a pretty thick upper back). I have buddies with much shorter arms than I who tell me they have not felt the same difference.

Also - I believe that a canoe stroke is just easier and more intuitive than a kayak stroke for most people. I've taken newbs out in both types of boats, and for the most part, after a few hours most newbs settle into a decent enough j-stroke. It can take DAYS to get a new kayaker to stop 'arm paddling'.

Finally - what type of kayak paddle are you using? If you ever have the opportunity to try a 'greenland' style paddle, I highly recommend them. It's a bit of a learning curve, but once you get good, you can travel at a pretty good clip for hours without much fatigue ( but you'll never be able to sprint as fast as you can with a 'spoon' blade.

Responding to earlier post about a boat you can paddle. Not sure a Magic qualifies as a racing boat, but I have one and a couple paddles you could try. I am in Des Moines, send an email if interested.

Bob, very good comments. I suspect if your bicep is stressed when using a single blade, you are "arm paddling" with the single blade just like you point out that "arm paddling" is a common form problem with a double. Good form with a single blade involves mainly the abs, obliques, and back muscles as much as a double blade does, with core rotation being a big part of it.

I don't think "do what works best for you" is good advice, when using a double blade from a higher seating position and in a wider canoe is terribly inefficient from an energy standpoint. IF it works best for you, it points to the fact that there is great improvement potential for you and a single blade.

ALL that said, sure there are all kinds of examples of experts switching back and forth. A lot of times it is done to switch up the muscle groups when doing extended fast journeys. I mean, the experts in kayak and canoe races such as the Texas Water Safari, the Everglades Challenge, the Yukon races, or the MR340 have been known to switch it up now and then for that reason. But you will never see the experts use double blades for any long duration in a tandem canoe. Or a single in a kayak. It is just not efficient, and most of it has to do with the seating position and the width of the boat. In a kayak, you are too close to the water to be strong and efficient with a single blade. In a canoe, you are too far from the water to be strong and efficient with a double blade. Yes there are exceptions to any rule so you don't need to point that out.

I'm no better on a J stroke than anybody, and don't particularly like hit and switch. So I just use a rudder. All my effort is put into power, not steering. The rudder is a bit of drag on the canoe, but in the end I'm a lot faster with a single blade and a rudder. In the "unlimited" classes of many races, you will see rudders on canoes, kayaks, and boats that fit somewhere in the middle.