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   Listening Point - General Discussion
      Interesting op-ed about the BW and the copper mine     

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Chicagored
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07/18/2019 08:06AM
 
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Johnh
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07/18/2019 09:32AM
Great article.

I would hate to see the Boundary Waters ruined so some guys from a Chile can make money.
 
Bushpilot
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07/18/2019 10:18AM
10 to 1 this gets deleted before sun down …. it belongs in the political forum.

100 to 1 nobody on this forum would ever give up using copper, even to save the bwca.

We need to get our copper somewhere. This is a safer option than the pebble mine or even Arizona. As I am sure all of you know this will be dry stack mining with little environmental risk. Maybe we should get or copper from poor countries with no environmental standards.
 
Pinetree
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07/18/2019 10:38AM
It belongs in this forum. It is not about politics. It is about future of this BWCA and even this forum.
Science or the facts can be just that.
The Arizona mining operation is huge and in a much much drier climate and much safer. Yes there are concerns there also. Lot of info on that site if people want to look at it. I did.
Copper at present is in the surplus and is at $2.62 per pound. Twin Metal and copper mining companies use the standard of $3.00 to $3.50 to break even.
Even if no further comments made it is nice to see the info-article and each and everyone can make a decision.
Also at present many EPA rules are being ignored Nation wide and no consequences for wrong doing.

I also see Montana has a a new copper mine wanting to open where severe pollution has happen in the past and still toxic. Montana people are raising concerns also.

In some ways I think Polymet and Twin mine are two different scenarios completely.

Yes I will also eat agriculture products and commend my farming friends,but I don't want farming to take place in close to certain waterways or potential pollution. Everywhere at all times is not a option on most things in life.
Maybe its best to say your thoughts once and that is enough here. Yes that is hard to do.
Life is full of people with different opinions,yes we should respect that and yes that is hard also to do many, times.
 
Bushpilot
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07/18/2019 11:04AM
Pinetree no disrespect. You couldn't be more wrong. Arizona is not dry they have a monsoon season and flash floods year round. The cooper mine at Globe Arizona is thousand of feet above Phoenix. The biggest environmental damage there is dust and noise. The water from that mine flows right into many millions of peoples water supply. From the Salt river and the Roosevelt dam. This is first hand info as I have Pima Indian blood in me. 1000 times more Indian than Warren does. Pima are people of the Salt river.

The thing that gets me is this is the typical new America take it from others so it won't affect my way of living. We use more cooper than any other people on this earth. If we can't get cooper out of the ground without damage we shouldn't be using it. My god we put a man on the moon 50 years ago and we can't mine cooper safely ?
 
Pinetree
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07/18/2019 11:31AM
Bushpilot: "Pinetree no disrespect. "
None taken. Learn a little bit everyday.

I see there is like ten active copper mines of various sizes in Arizona and others proposed. I also see one of those mines water usage has dropped the underground water level of cities used for drinking. Each mine is different and each location has various effects. I have seen first hand many copper mines in Montana and continuing effects.

Yes info from various sources is good and a person who doesn't seek out various sources is uninformed. Never too much info it is just how a person uses it.
 
adam
Moderator
 
07/18/2019 11:42AM
Bushpilot: "Pinetree no disrespect. You couldn't be more wrong. Arizona is not dry they have a monsoon season and flash floods year round. The cooper mine at Globe Arizona is thousand of feet above Phoenix. The biggest environmental damage there is dust and noise. The water from that mine flows right into many millions of peoples water supply. From the Salt river and the Roosevelt dam. This is first hand info as I have Pima Indian blood in me. 1000 times more Indian than Warren does. Pima are people of the Salt river.

The thing that gets me is this is the typical new America take it from others so it won't affect my way of living. We use more cooper than any other people on this earth. If we can't get cooper out of the ground without damage we shouldn't be using it. My god we put a man on the moon 50 years ago and we can't mine cooper safely ?"


Where do you get the fact that we use more copper then anyone else?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/693466/distribution-of-global-refined-copper-consumption-by-region/

 
Bushpilot
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07/18/2019 12:14PM
adam: "Where do you get the fact that we use more copper then anyone else?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/693466/distribution-of-global-refined-copper-consumption-by-region/ "

CNN. Maybe fake news ….again. They had a show on the pebble mine I am sure China use a lot for products sent to the US. The link you posted wants my money and that's not going to happen. Regardless the US uses more than it produces and that is wrong.

The article starts out by bashing the President and this isn't about politics. Maybe if I had an IQ around room temperature. And this is coming from a registered democrat, me.
 
Michwall2
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07/18/2019 01:03PM
Pinetree: "I
Copper at present is in the surplus and is at $2.62 per pound. Twin Metal and copper mining companies use the standard of $3.00 to $3.50 to break even."


If this is true, what metal are they getting that will produce an economic advantage. It would make copper just a happy bi-product that they can also sell?

Nickel, platinum, gold?



 
Michwall2
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07/18/2019 01:05PM
Bushpilot: "As I am sure all of you know this will be dry stack mining with little environmental risk. Maybe we should get or copper from poor countries with no environmental standards.
"


I have just done a little reading on "Dry Stack" mining. See link here: Filtered Dry Stacked Tailings-The Fundamentals

While i understand that you eliminate the risk of the "impoundment" failing, There still seems to be substantial risk to ground water. The process seems to be allowed in conjunction with "waste rock"(not the same as tailings) storage. Does it not rain on reclaimed lands? Does that rain not leach the same toxic brew of acids and heavy metals from those "dry stacks" and the waste rock around it?

The article on dry stack mining also acknowledges the substantial risk of "fugitive dusting" from dry stacks.



 
07/18/2019 01:10PM
I saw nothing about politics, just people with money and power doing things to make more money. Also, yes, we put a man on the moon, but it wasn't easy....much trial and error, some deaths, some deaths and mishaps much later in the space program. Mistakes and mishaps occur at much higher technological undertakings than copper mining. Looking at the track record of most of these mines, it appears they are far from foolproof. Also, Antofagasta has a different set of values than NASA.
 
Bushpilot
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07/18/2019 01:37PM
Michwall2: "Pinetree: "I
Copper at present is in the surplus and is at $2.62 per pound. Twin Metal and copper mining companies use the standard of $3.00 to $3.50 to break even."

If this is true, what metal are they getting that will produce an economic advantage. It would make copper just a happy bi-product that they can also sell?

Nickel, platinum, gold?"

Copper, nickel, platinum, palladium and gold. It takes between 10 to 30 tons ore to get enough to make a gold ring. Look around at how many people wear gold.

 
Bushpilot
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07/18/2019 01:39PM
Michwall2: "The article on dry stack mining also acknowledges the substantial risk of "fugitive dusting" from dry stacks."
Dry stacking is the most sustainable method used to store filtered tailings—silty, sandy material— produced from the mine processing plant after the 4% of the ore that is copper, nickel and other metals is extracted. Tailings stored in dry stacks are piles of sand topped by native soil and vegetation. There is no need for a dam to hold them in place, no possibility of dam failure, and no long-term storage issues. Due to the deposit’s geology, tailings will be non-acid generating. These tailings can be safely exposed to air and water because all but trace amounts of sulfides will be removed from them during processing.
 
arctic
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07/18/2019 01:43PM
The number of mining operations in the US where the American taxpayer has had to foot the bill to clean up the mess when mining companies go bankrupt or just close down is beyond count. Some things can't be fixed, no matter how much money is thrown at it.

If gold was discovered underneath Arlington National Cemetery, I wonder how many folks would support mining it.
 
07/18/2019 01:59PM
Have been in what was at the time the world's largest copper mine (in Chile)...and the chemical waste around the area from leaching was staggering.

The big ones are visible from space, I believe.

Not a small concern for sure.

If we're going to do it I'd be a lot happier to have it be an American company, where we have a better chance of accountability and higher expectations.

Not sure we'd have a lot of recourse as a community (local, state, national) with the Chilean execs, should something go sideways. American execs might not care, but the chances that they do care are higher than Chileans.
 
tumblehome
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07/18/2019 03:39PM
Maybe another way to look at it is this:

1.Does mining company care about the BWCA or is is only an obstacle to them?

2. Where could you find a worse place on earth to build the world's largest underground sulfide mine than one mile from the BWCA?

3. Who is going to care for the waste in 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 years?

That's all I'm saying. I think these are fair questions to ask. None of my questions have a realistic answer.
 
Bushpilot
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07/18/2019 03:55PM
It is not a sulfide mine it is a "hard rock mine". Sulfur has been mined as a fertilizer. In fact it was mined outside Babbitt.


2. Where could you find a worse place on earth to build the world's largest underground sulfide mine than one mile from the BWCA?

The pebble mine would be worse by 1000 times, link.
While the exact scope of proposed mining activities have not been finalized, the general outline of the plan is known.
Pebble West would probably be mined as an open pit. The open pit might reach 2 miles (3.2 km) wide and several thousand feet deep. Most of the rock removed from the pit would become waste, amounting to as much as 10 billion tons. That material, along with allowed discharge chemicals, would be stored permanently in two artificial lakes behind embankment dams. The largest would be 740 feet (230 m) tall and 4.3 miles (6.9 km) long. Pebble East would most likely be an underground mine.

I am not for the pebble mine.

 
brp
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07/18/2019 05:26PM
I am basically a construction worker. I see copper fittings and pipe in the trash all the time. I think the statement below would get general acceptance from a wide range of people and beliefs:

"There should be systems or regulations in place that maximize the recovery of recyclable resources...before other, very valuable, resources are sacrificed for virgin resources."

The suggestion up-thread is that there is one place to get copper, dangerous mines. Until we've exhausted copper recycling efforts, we shouldn't really be examining opening mines.

A potential real solution to this issue for society to "subsidize" inflated prices for scrap copper, that may well be cheaper than the costs of the damage, and the damage is eliminated, and the landfill is less full.

I say "subsidize" in quotes because it may not really be a subsidy, it may be the cheapest way to have a copper market, when including the costs associated with the damage, and those costs are real and should be included in an legitimate calculation.
 
Michwall2
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07/19/2019 06:54AM
preacherdave: "Here we go again"

I hope so. I have learned a lot from this particular discussion. It is important, I think, to have a place to hear people's perspectives. So far, the discussion has been polite.

It is an emotional topic for many on both sides, but, I have enjoyed the chance to learn about "dry stacking". Thank you BushPilot.

 
07/19/2019 08:46AM
To boil it down. Right now there is zero chance of the BW getting contaminated by local mining. Unfortunately that won't be the case in there near future. Why risk it to the arguably the most pristine wilderness area in the lower 48
 
Soledad
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07/19/2019 09:25AM
 
Soledad
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07/19/2019 09:29AM


"Dry stacking is the most sustainable method used to store filtered tailings—silty, sandy material— produced from the mine processing plant after the 4% of the ore that is copper, nickel and other metals is extracted. Tailings stored in dry stacks are piles of sand topped by native soil and vegetation. There is no need for a dam to hold them in place, no possibility of dam failure, and no long-term storage issues. Due to the deposit’s geology, tailings will be non-acid generating. These tailings can be safely exposed to air and water because all but trace amounts of sulfides will be removed from them during processing. "

Then why does Polymet need permits for dams??
DNR Polymet Dam Permits

One dam safety permit covers the proposed flotation tailings basin, which will be located on the site of the existing tailings basin of the historic LTV iron ore mine and will receive tailings (a mixture of finely ground waste rock and water). The second dam safety permit covers the proposed hydrometallurgical residue facility, which will receive residue (mostly gypsum) generated from a process that will use pressure and temperature reactions to extract additional precious metals beyond what can be achieved by the primary processing facility.
 
Bushpilot
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07/19/2019 10:35AM
Thanks for the graph soledad. Chinas use of copper is for manufacturing goods for export. Can anyone find how much copper is used per capita by country?


The US imports about 15% of its copper. We should have a surplus.

What I think is more alarming is how few rare earth metals we produce. China is also leading the way in rare earth metals.

If china ever wanted to keep a tight market on rare earth metals we would be toast. Rare earth metals include: rare earth elements—17 elements in the periodic table, the 15 lanthanides plus scandium and yttrium; six platinum group elements; and other byproduct metals that occur in copper, gold, uranium, phosphates, iron or zinc ores

Polymet doesn't use dry stacking , the reason for needed dams. Twin Metals plan is to put half of the dry stack tailing back underground and cement them in.
 
Bushpilot
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07/19/2019 10:53AM
Looks like the US, Korea and Japan use more copper per person than any other countries.

Per capita consumption of copper in the United States was 10 kilograms per person in 1965, the same as in 1995. In Japan, per capita consumption increased from 6 kilograms per person to 11 kilograms per person over the same time period. Copper consumption in Korea in 1965 was less than 1000 tons. By 1995, Korea's consumption of copper had reached 637,000 tons, or more than 14 kilograms per person.

In China, even after years of economic growth, per capita copper usage is about 5.4 kg. As China’s populace urbanizes, builds up its infrastructure and becomes more of a consuming society, there’s no reason to suspect Chinese copper consumption won’t approach or even surpass U.S., Japanese and South Korean levels. There’s 1.3 billion people in China, even a slight increase in Chinese consumption will translate into enormous demand growth.

India, with its 1.2 billion people, is presently using 0.4 kg of copper per person. The country is modernizing and needs to invest heavily in electrical power infrastructure. According to the International Energy Agency (IEA), India's power production will need to rise by up to 20 percent annually to keep pace with its economic and population growth. Just meeting the required power target would double India's annual copper consumption.

Link to the article...a good read!
 
1JimD
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07/19/2019 01:45PM
I don't know if anyone from the Minnesota Government monitors this site ?

If they do ?
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ???

You are putting at risk one of the best things Minnesota is known for ! The BWCA !

March up there right now and put a Stop to it !!!

The one thing That makes Minnesota what it is ! The lure of unspoiled Wilderness.
How many Boy Scouts have for the first time paddled a canoe, drank water from a lake, or listened to the call of the Loon, while laying awake in their tent at night ?

You would give this away so some Foreign country can profit ?

Wake up Minnesota !!!

Please put a stop to it !

Jim
 
07/19/2019 02:22PM
On the other end of the iron range our county and twp governments take in from mining and timber sales. So local employment and tax dollars to local economy... not saying I’m for or against it, just remember it takes money up here to provide services to people coming here to play or whatever. I never heard what that would mean to the local economy, but (just coming from a small pickup vs bigger pickup standing still call) emergency services take tax dollars. Lots of our tax dollars go right to the cities ( in MN the cities means the twin cities). Like I say, I can’t say what’s right either way... I’m not a mining expert. Maybe if there wasn’t so many restrictions on our own companies maybe we wouldn’t have to depend on foreign companies to come and do this.
 
Pinetree
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07/19/2019 02:54PM
From a Copper industry website:

It looks like really there is no shortage of copper in the world.
Known worldwide copper resources are estimated at nearly 5.8 trillion pounds of which only about 0.7 trillion pounds (12%) have been mined throughout history... and nearly all of that is still in circulation, because copper's recycling rate is higher than that of any other engineering metal.
Each year in the U.S.A., nearly as much copper is recovered from recycled material as is derived from newly mined ore... and when you exclude wire production, most of which uses newly refined copper, the amount of copper used by copper and brass mills, ingot makers, foundries, powder plants and other industries shows that nearly three-fourths (72%) comes from recycled copper scrap.

June 9,2019
Copper Surplus

According to the International Copper Study Group (ICSG), the global copper market posted a surplus of 40,000 tons through the first two months of 2019.
 
riverrunner
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07/20/2019 05:21AM
1JimD: "You are putting at risk one of the best things Minnesota is known for ! The BWCA !

Jim"

I talk to a lot of people who never heard of the BWCA and have no idea what or where it is. Just because it maybe know in certain circles doesn't mean it is well know.
 
Bearpath9
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07/20/2019 10:14AM
I think what this boils down to is do we really need to mine in this area ? Sure, it will provide some jobs, not many, but some. And it may provide an economic boost to an area that needs it. But does that offset the pollution that will occur, and after that, the loss of a lot of tourism dollars ?
Then there is the issue of whether these mines are actually needed. I have seen on this thread a lot of statistics, pro and con, about that. Who will really benefit from this ? It would seem that most of the benefits will go to the companies that will do the mining, not companies from this country, but foreign corporations that do not have our interests at heart. And after the first disaster, they will probably pull out and leave us to foot the bill for the clean up. That is the usual track record for foreign mining companies.

Then the issue of mining comes up. I know that the iron range has long been an area whose people been in the mining field. It is a matter of pride to them. But, unfortunately, mining is an area that has been going downhill in this country for a long time. I just got back from Wyoming, and along I-90, just outside of Gillette, there used to be a huge open pit coal mine. Well, it seems that the company that owned it went bankrupt, and all that is there now is a big hole.


In an age when our national treasures are being assaulted by businesses that are only in it for the profits they can make off of mines, or timber, or oil, and the hell with the impact it will have on the environment, on the flora and fauna that live in these areas, and the long term damage, sometimes irreparable, sometimes only needing hundreds of years to clean up, do we really need this ? It would seem to me that until we come up with a way to do this without the inevitable damage that it creates, there should be no mining. The metals aren't going anywhere, but once the damage is done, its done. There will be no turning back the clock, and the BWCA as we know it will be gone.
 
07/20/2019 10:41AM
Minnesota has given it's fair share of resources already. Our trees have helped build America. Our ores has built America and it's vast war machine. I can't believe there aren't other states that hold minerals. You ever notice how the people that regulate and the people that own these mines never live anywhere near them. I don't thing this is a coincidence.

There are far more eco jobs in the Ely Grand Marais area than mining job that will be created.

Show me one mine that is 100 years old that hasn't had some kind of ecological impact in it's surroundings. Look at this companies polluting track record. Mining company spills and clean up cost tax payers billions of dollars and even after spending all that money the area will never recover back to it's original condition. The idea of pollution free mining is a joke and a fallacy. Here's how it will go down. The company will come in and mine for 20 years. Provide 100-200 jobs at most and then abandon the area. The company will make hundreds of millions of dollars and leave our future generations to pray for the best. 20 years from now the miners will be screaming for more work. 50-100 years after that contaminated water will end the Eco jobs and close all the Outfitters. The BWCA will never be what it was. This is a no win for Minnesota if you think long term. This area is too valuable to risk.

I believe that if we recycled our metals instead of shipping them off to 3rd world countries to further pollute we would need less mines.
 
Pinetree
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07/20/2019 11:09AM
Bearpath9: That is the usual track record for foreign mining companies.


Then the issue of mining comes up. I know that the iron range has long been an area whose people been in the mining field. It is a matter of pride to them. But, unfortunately, mining is an area that has been going downhill in this country for a long time. I just got back from Wyoming, and along I-90, just outside of Gillette, there used to be a huge open pit coal mine. Well, it seems that the company that owned it went bankrupt, and all that is there now is a big hole.


Many of them big holes in Wyoming once were pristine areas and great antelope hunting areas. That part of the state changed so much,I have no desire to go there anymore.
 
1JimD
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07/20/2019 09:14PM
riverrunner: "1JimD: "You are putting at risk one of the best things Minnesota is known for ! The BWCA !

Jim"

I talk to a lot of people who never heard of the BWCA and have no idea what or
where it is.

Just because it may be know in certain circles doesn't mean it is well know."

Talk to the businesses that pull income from the BWCA! Look at the brochures at the rest stops. Outfitters, retailers, restaurants, fuel stops, motels. DNR! Licensing bureau. The list goes on! Minnesota-owned businesses!

Wake up Minnesota! At the very least, go to the voting polls!!!
 
07/20/2019 10:34PM
The BW is a unique place in America. There's no other place like it and IMO we should not take the chance of possibly losing it forever. It's shortsighted and we owe it to future generations.
 
tumblehome
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07/21/2019 07:03AM
Regarding the huge bankrupt coal mine in Gillette, WY.

Yes, the mining company (Blackjewell, INC) based in West Virginia went bankrupt. They closed four coal mines including the one in Gillette, WY and 700 people were immediately laid off. The end.
There will be no reclamation of the massive hole in the ground. A bankrupt mine does not reclaim the land. And most mines close by bankruptcy.

>You can read about it here<

Twin Metals is a subsidiary company of Antofagasta of Santiago, Chile. When they are done mining, Twin Metals files bankruptcy and that's it. No clean up. Antofagasta has no further part in it.

This is just something that needs to be thought about when you support a sulfide mine 1 mile from the BWCA. And this mine will need monitoring of the resulting sulfuric acid runoff in perpetuity but the models only go out 500 years.
 
tumblehome
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07/21/2019 07:20AM
I pulled this paragraph out of another news story about mine closures in WY.

"With mines likely to close, Wyoming is entering a new and untested paradigm for coal — reclamation without production. Typically, mines clean up their mess as they go; if they don’t, then the state can shut down operations until they do. But once a company goes broke and the mine shuts down, the only funds for cleanup are reclamation bonds, which critics say are inadequate in Wyoming. "

As Minnesotans, are we ignorant enough to think a foreign-owned mining company is going to properly shut down a mine once the minerals are removed?

Tom

I'm not against mining, I'm against sulfide mining in watershed.
 
Portage99
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07/21/2019 07:43AM
cowdoc: "just people with money and power doing things to make more money. . "

Take almost any environmental or social issue, look deep enough and this is the real problem. While we argue over political party, gender, race, etc., a small minority are making their own rules and conning us all (while destroying our planet). We could have a totally different society if those in power (internationally) cared about values besides $$$$.

I live in an area where corps dump and run. Can’t eat the fish in certain rivers. Can’t swim in certain lakes. Farm run-off creating algae blooms and factory farming “accidents “ creating the odd fish-kill. We have no natural areas of clean water. Could it be better even with these industries here? Yes, but the ones doing this don’t care. They are corps driven by $$$. Ive reported several dumps. I’ve been told by a friend who works for one of the companies it’s cheaper to pay the potential fine than dispose of per guidelines. I had an EPA guy call me back on a report and tell me the owner I reported was a “really nice guy and good friend “ as he explained there was no way of knowing what caused the large area of dead trees behind the business. Eye roll.

I do appreciate the need for jobs and take this argument seriously. It’s obviously important to prioritize immediate human concerns with long term environmental impact.Living where I live and seeing the carnage, I appreciate so much CLEAN water. I never knew it existed, as I grew up being told to stay out of the river at my Grandmas house and seeing fish with sores on them. I’d hate to see a water warning sign in the wilderness. Corps always say there will be minimal impact. They lie.

When I’m in the wilderness areas, I’m in awe of the water. It’s really precious and something we no longer have here.


 
Bushpilot
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07/21/2019 08:33AM

I'm not against mining, I'm against sulfide mining in watershed."

So where could we do "hard rock" mining without it being in someone's water shed???? If someone tells you twin metals mine is 1 mile from the BWCA question their motive. It is 5 times that distance.


KMSP 9 news video on dry stacking and twin metals.

Dry stack mining eliminates many of the environmental risk. Twin Metals The rock sandwiching the layer of copper, nickel and platinum group minerals in the deposit is almost completely free of sulfides. When the targeted minerals are removed during the concentration process and shipped to customers. Dry stack tailings storage, often promoted by environmental groups as an alternative to conventional wet tailings as a way to protect water quality. As technology has continued to advance, and the application of dry stack in cold, wet climates has proven successful at multiple locations.

If twin metals moved the tails 15 miles south out of the bwca watershed would that be Okay?? If it was an American company would the mine be Okay?

So you don't like Antofagasta because it is owned by foreigners. I see people calling people "racist" for saying less.

Mining is driven by demand, so instead of telling everyone else to sacrifice maybe we should sacrifice. Like no more jet travel, only 1 car families, no cell phones, no solar, no windturbines, no travel for vacations, etc...…….

Mining is on a 100 year plan and the twin metal mine will never happen in my life time. So it is not to late for you to start practicing what you preach. I would be a hypocrite to say no mine typing over my copper- rare metal computer.

For the record I would prefer if we didn't have to mine. However if we use these metals WE should have to live with the problems we create by using these metals. I know some of you are okay with doing it in some 3rd world country where we don't have to live with the damage. And that is flat ass wrong.

We can have clean water and mines. There are piles of these hard rock tails on the edge of Birch lake and have been for more then 50 years. It was called the Dunka mine.
 
airmorse
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07/21/2019 08:48AM
Sounds like where I live.
 
07/21/2019 11:22AM
Portage99: "cowdoc: "just people with money and power doing things to make more money. . "


Take almost any environmental or social issue, look deep enough and this is the real problem. While we argue over political party, gender, race, etc., a small minority are making their own rules and conning us all (while destroying our planet). We could have a totally different society if those in power (internationally) cared about values besides $$$$.


I live in an area where corps dump and run. Can’t eat the fish in certain rivers. Can’t swim in certain lakes. Farm run-off creating algae blooms and factory farming “accidents “ creating the odd fish-kill. We have no natural areas of clean water. Could it be better even with these industries here? Yes, but the ones doing this don’t care. They are corps driven by $$$. Ive reported several dumps. I’ve been told by a friend who works for one of the companies it’s cheaper to pay the potential fine than dispose of per guidelines. I had an EPA guy call me back on a report and tell me the owner I reported was a “really nice guy and good friend “ as he explained there was no way of knowing what caused the large area of dead trees behind the business. Eye roll.


I do appreciate the need for jobs and take this argument seriously. It’s obviously important to prioritize immediate human concerns with long term environmental impact.Living where I live and seeing the carnage, I appreciate so much CLEAN water. I never knew it existed, as I grew up being told to stay out of the river at my Grandmas house and seeing fish with sores on them. I’d hate to see a water warning sign in the wilderness. Corps always say there will be minimal impact. They lie.


When I’m in the wilderness areas, I’m in awe of the water. It’s really precious and something we no longer have here.



"


By LAW a Corporation only duty is to the share holder, which equates to lowering cost(environmental, wages etc). It can be and will be sued by the shareholders if it does anything but have the almighty dollar top priority.
 
ZaraSp00k
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07/22/2019 06:52AM
we are all going to eventually die, but all of our trash we generated while we were alive will still be here, that new pickup you just had to have, that new outboard motor and all the other crap you just had to have although you had a perfectly good one will still be here

my previous post was deleted

you leave behind a legacy, a legacy of your footprints upon the earth, the warm fuzzies people may have of you will also be gone because THOSE people will eventually die too, but ALL of their trash will still be here too

it is selfish to put your own interests above those of all who follow

Although I did not grow up in ELY I did grow up in northern MN and have known quite a number of people who grew up in Ely but they all moved away, why? because they didn't want to work in mining with the up and down economy of it, not to mention the work itself.

Two became engineers, one a lawyer, two teachers, another a technician, IWO, they wanted a career rather than the typical cycle of work unemployment that was available in Ely

go ahead and delete this post too, but mother nature will eventually win, in the short term over you, and although it may take 10,000 years or a million, she will eventually win out over all the crap that is a result of your selfishness too
 
tumblehome
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07/22/2019 07:25AM
@bushpilot.

Nope, the mine site is on the Spruce Road which is the gravel road for entry points to the Kawishiwi River and Little Gabbro Lake. The digging is one mile from the BWCA. Twin Metals owns mineral rights up to the border of the BWCA.



You can hear the test drilling rigs from the BWCA. I spend a lot of time in this exact area.

The ore which contains the non-ferrous metals is sulfide bearing rock when put in contact with water= sulferic acid.

How come they keep changing their plans about how to mine the ore? Each time they change their plans they tell me it's the very best way to do it? So was the last time the had a plan not actually the best way even though they told me it was?

I'm trying to be fair and honest about what their plan is but there isn't anything 'good' about any of this which is why I sound so negative. I'm not against mining. I'm against sulfide mining in a watershed.

Tom
 
airmorse
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07/22/2019 07:43AM
Although I did not grow up in ELY I did grow up in northern MN and have known quite a number of people who grew up in Ely but they all moved away, why? because they didn't want to work in mining with the up and down economy of it, not to mention the work itself.

Two became engineers, one a lawyer, two teachers, another a technician, IWO, they wanted a career rather than the typical cycle of work unemployment that was available in Ely


Nice post.

I've made this argument before. People move to where the good jobs are.

 
Pinetree
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07/22/2019 08:50AM
tumblehome: "@bushpilot.


Nope, the mine sight is on the Spruce Road which is the gravel road for entry points to the Kawishiwi River and Little Gabbro Lake. The digging is one mile from the BWCA. Twin Metals owns mineral rights up to the border of the BWCA.




You can hear the test drilling rigs from the BWCA. I spend a lot of time in this exact area.


The ore which contains the non-ferrous metals is sulfide bearing rock when put in contact with water= sulferic acid.


How come they keep changing their plans about how to mine the ore? Each time they change their plans they tell me it's the very best way to do it? So was the last time the had a plan not actually the best way even though they told me it was?


I'm trying to be fair and honest about what their plan is but there isn't anything 'good' about any of this which is why I sound so negative. I'm not against mining. I'm against sulfide mining in a watershed.


Tom"

There is test drill holes very close to the Kawishiwi river also potential leasing by copper mining companies almost to Bog lake on the edge of the BWCA
 
missmolly
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07/22/2019 09:05AM
airmorse: "Although I did not grow up in ELY I did grow up in northern MN and have known quite a number of people who grew up in Ely but they all moved away, why? because they didn't want to work in mining with the up and down economy of it, not to mention the work itself.

Two became engineers, one a lawyer, two teachers, another a technician, IWO, they wanted a career rather than the typical cycle of work unemployment that was available in Ely

Nice post.

I've made this argument before. People move to where the good jobs are."

Plus, America needs engineers, doctors, nurses, teachers, and technicians. There are shortages for all these roles. I think we have enough lawyers.
 
inspector13
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07/22/2019 09:28AM
1JimD: " I don't know if anyone from the Minnesota Government monitors this site ?"
What a disturbing thought...

 
Savage Voyageur
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07/22/2019 10:40AM
inspector13: "1JimD: " I don't know if anyone from the Minnesota government monitors this site."
What a disturbing thought..."

Got that right Steve
 
CityFisher74
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07/22/2019 12:44PM
minnmike: "By LAW a Corporation only duty is to the share holder, which equates to lowering cost(environmental, wages etc). It can be and will be sued by the shareholders if it does anything but have the almighty dollar top priority. "
I see where you are going with this point, but this assumes Shareholder priorities are strictly dollar driven. As an investor, I disagree that all Shareholders value dollar above all else. Millenial investors are finally helping push public companies to do more ethically, and these companies are listening.
 
Bushpilot
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07/22/2019 03:01PM
The fact is the mine entrance is about 7 or 8 miles to the sw of the bwca. It is planned to be an underground mine. Twin metals owns that land. The processing plant will be another couple miles to the south. All of this will be south of hwy 1. Yes there was a time when they where drilling core samples a few miles south of the b-dub. I have not seen any drill rigs in that area in years. I fly over the area all the time. I just flew over the area last week show some people from Birch Lake the mine site. I remember about 5 years ago they were logging 5 miles south of Gabbro Lake and you could hear the logging equipment from Gabbro, but I could deal with it. Never heard any noise from a drill rig so I can't speak for how loud they are.


Yes there are other core drill spots in the area and yes there is one south of Bog lake. A test drill site and mine are not the same thing.

 
Bushpilot
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07/22/2019 03:16PM
inspector13: "1JimD: " I don't know if anyone from the Minnesota Government monitors this site ?"
What a disturbing thought...


"


Don't forget politicians like Humphrey and Tip O'Neills democratic congress are the ones that promised the people of Northern Minnesota that they could mine and log right up to the bwca border. The bill never would have passed without allowing mining and logging. So our government lied to the people Minnesota, very disturbing. And even more disturbing is how many people are okay with lying these days.

This seems to be the way this country is going. Honesty and promise we make mean nothing.
 
07/22/2019 05:13PM
CityFisher74: "minnmike: "By LAW a Corporation only duty is to the share holder, which equates to lowering cost(environmental, wages etc). It can be and will be sued by the shareholders if it does anything but have the almighty dollar top priority. "


I see where you are going with this point, but this assumes Shareholder priorities are strictly dollar driven. As an investor, I disagree that all Shareholders value dollar above all else. Millenial investors are finally helping push public companies to do more ethically, and these companies are listening."


Right you are. This is becoming more common and it's awesome. Unfortunately most people don't buy mining stocks to try to make the company more environmentally friendly. They buy green tech and the like that are founded on these principles.
 
07/22/2019 05:19PM
Bushpilot: "inspector13: "1JimD: " I don't know if anyone from the Minnesota Government monitors this site ?"
What a disturbing thought...



"



Don't forget politicians like Humphrey and Tip O'Neills democratic congress are the ones that promised the people of Northern Minnesota that they could mine and log right up to the bwca border. The bill never would have passed without allowing mining and logging. So our government lied to the people Minnesota, very disturbing. And even more disturbing is how many people are okay with lying these days.

This seems to be the way this country is going. Honesty and promise we make mean nothing."


The lies are nothing new. Our country was built on lies and promises to the natives here.
 
Pinetree
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07/22/2019 05:28PM
Twin mines wants to move the proposed location of its mining waste 16 miles north(original site)( I think they moved it some different times) to a location within a few miles of the Boundary Wars(almost touches highway 1 south, side of road and close to the Kawishiwi river. About 4 miles from BWCA. Now drainage of watershed will be the Kawishiwi river which will drain to an area of lakes and rivers that drain into the Wilderness and White Iron lake.

 
1JimD
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07/22/2019 07:03PM
I pray your Governor has the Balls to stop this mining operation !

What a good thing it would be to protect the BWCA ! and not let it be squandered by a foreign country !
The opportunity for greatness, is there !!!
 
Bushpilot
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07/22/2019 07:09PM
Hey Pinetree are you going to be in Ely for Up North Jobs Twin Metals Minnesota Appreciation Days, July 26-28... 4th annual? ? If so we could meet and say Hi! I will be in town Friday and Saturday is TGOs gathering. I could bring my Pipestone peace pipe. I am not much for smokie, but I would do the pipe with you. Ely chamber of commerce and Up North Jobs are just saying thanks to Twin Metals for all their help and donations to the community. With another billion dollars to spend before they dig they seem like the only help the Ely- Babbitt area get. Yes we know they are foreigners. But the range was built on immigrants. About 2 dozen different nationalities worked the mines up here. Or as I like to say the range is just south of the border.
 
07/22/2019 07:46PM
First. I’m amazed this discussion is still up and going. Second, there’s a whole lot of questions being answered with other questions in this thread. That is bad form and avoidance type behavior. Finally, blaming the end user for dubious location of historically environmentally dangerous industries of any type makes zero logic. My$.02. Remember. The best way to spread Christmas cheer is singing loud for all to here.
 
BearBurrito
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07/23/2019 08:50AM
I found the article interesting. Thanks for posting.
 
07/23/2019 09:55AM
Twin Metals announced on July 18th they will not be dry stacking. Instead will have a 2.6 Billion Ton tailing pond in the BWCA watershed. Look it up
 
Pinetree
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07/23/2019 09:56AM
Bushpilot: "Hey Pinetree are you going to be in Ely for Up North Jobs Twin Metals Minnesota Appreciation Days, July 26-28... 4th annual? ? If so we could meet and say Hi! I will be in town Friday and Saturday is TGOs gathering. I could bring my Pipestone peace pipe. I am not much for smokie, but I would do the pipe with you. Ely chamber of commerce and Up North Jobs are just saying thanks to Twin Metals for all their help and donations to the community. With another billion dollars to spend before they dig they seem like the only help the Ely- Babbitt area get. Yes we know they are foreigners. But the range was built on immigrants. About 2 dozen different nationalities worked the mines up here. Or as I like to say the range is just south of the border."

No peace pipe needed. Always respected you and your opinions and stories of the area. Yes a Peace Pipe would be fine with some good white cedar chips. I also don't smoke tho. Took one puff of a cigarette when I was a kid and almost choked. That was the last time. Always considered you a friend I never seen. We agree on much and love the outdoors but disagree on some things.

No I won't be up there for the Twin Metal thing. Twin Mines does not belong. If I get a chance I will be picking blueberries.

But yes I will continue to disagree on mining copper. There is only one BWCA like area in this country. Only one,the BWCA. It is the largest area of freshwater in the entire National Foresr system. This watershed by the BWCA is huge and it is a very sterile area and really has no buffer to adapt from outside change.
I do have old iron ore mining remnants shft a couple miles from my house. Never minded iron ore mining.

I go back to like around 1975 when I had friends working on the Kawishiwi watershed that far back working doing studies on the ecosystems and yes fish life and what is the potential for problems. There were concerns than.

I can even date myself I stayed at the old Wardens cabin in Winton and old Fish and Wildlife office at Fall lake in like 1968. I am sure you remember that? I think many of the planes were based down that way? Yes bats flew around at night in the cabin.. I think Game Warden Hodges(sp) had his plane tied down there on Fall lake. I heard a few stories there about him and his flying experience.
I think that cabin its long gone?

I would of liked to made it for the TGO gathering tho,one heck of a guy and great character. He will be missed. I am sure he will have a good turnout and a lot of stories told.

 
Portage99
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07/23/2019 10:21AM
minnmike: " Twin Metals announced on July 18th they will not be dry stacking. Instead will have a 2.6 Billion Ton tailing pond in the BWCA watershed. Look it up"

Editing from Bushpilot comment that the info above is not accurate. I should have checked the info, as I cannot find a source. My bad, as I hate inaccurate info in discussions. I apologize.

Actual Info

I still think that the plan to move the location is "creep".

This is a marketing technique companies use when they go into a new area or expand. I call it the "creep". We have this with giant hog farms going in around here. 'We promise we will only do X...okay, we might do X plus Y, but never Z.....Okay, we plan to do Z kinda but not really. Don't worry about it, because we have a magical solution to the problems associated with Z....oh look a squirrel!'

My opinion is you can never, ever trust companies, because, again, they don't care. And, they don't care about the workers either. They lie to workers. (Prime example-In my class, I show a great documentary on history of the superfund site Libby, Montana. Workers were expendable resources, as the owners pocketed money.)

If you look at the history of mining sites, I don't see how you can deny the environmental impact and the environmental accidents associated with mining. It just isn't realistic to think that mining, even in a best-case scenario, will not affect water quality.

Why the BW matters so much to me, is that once the water is contaminated, it seems to be game over for one of the last clean water places on earth. How do you ever fix that?
 
Bushpilot
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07/23/2019 10:30AM
!!!!!!!! BEWARE THIS IS NOT TRUE !!!!!!!!!!!!


minnmike: " Twin Metals announced on July 18th they will not be dry stacking. Instead will have a 2.6 Billion Ton tailing pond in the BWCA watershed. Look it up"

I will never be on a side that is not honest. At first I was on the fence about the twin metals mine. But after much research I change my mine. A girl from the friends of the boundary waters told me she would like to change the kind of people that live in Ely. Make it a place for retired doctors, lawyers,etc…. The working class would be professional online type of workers. She is from New York city and her parents own a place in northern MN. Becky Rom of the friends of the bw said she will change Ely 1 funeral at a time. TGO comes to mind. RIP The only way to get ride of the beer drinking Iron Ranges.


ELY— Twin Metals Minnesota announced on Thursday July 18 that it plans to use a more modern form of tailings storage than has been permitted for the proposed PolyMet Mine near Hoyt Lakes.
Known as the dry stack method, the new approach to tailings storage would eliminate the need for a tailings pond and large dam, reducing the risk of dam failure. According to a Twin Metals press statement, dry stack tailings storage has been used successfully in four mines in the northern United States and Canada with similar climates to Minnesota and has also been permitted at two mines in the western U.S.

Source the very left leaning liberal timber jay newspaper.
 
Portage99
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07/23/2019 10:50AM
I do respect and like to hear others opinions. Bushpilot, what do you see as the main positives of this mine? Just bullet points are okay, but I am curious. Is it the creation of jobs in the area? I apologize if you have already outlined your reasons, and you can direct me to a link, if I missed it.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the opinion of that one girl. I have never heard anything like that (changing the demographics of the population) voiced as a reason against the mining.
 
Bushpilot
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07/23/2019 11:04AM
Portage99, thanks for asking. First, the US government promised mining would continue. Along with that, dozens of other promises about how the BWCA would be run. Like banning four mile portages, snowmobiles, cisco trapping, etc.

I have first hand info from mining engineers and geologists that say this can be done without ruining the BWCA. I have not spoken with anyone from Twin Metals, but I will this week. I have been to, and flown over, many of the copper mines in Arizona and saw none of the inevitable damage. My step brother is a big wig at Caterpillar in Arizona servicing the mines. He also lived in Alaska for 25 years going in and out of the mines. He knows more about copper mining then anyone I have ever met. He says the biggest environmental damage with mining that he sees is dust and noise from trucks. Also, like I said, the pebble mine in Alaska should not happen. Five mile long, 700 foot high tails dam. So I am not for dangerous mines.

Anytime man walks in the woods, there is environmental damage. See the thread about 13 people camping.

Bottom line, Portage99, is we want the same thing - clean water in the BWCA. I think mining can be done in a way that wouldn't ruin the water. I also respect your concerns and understand them.

I think everyone needs to educate themselves on this. Go to the twin metals site and read up.

Yes I know it is their side and view, but we should read all the info available to us. Minnesota has the done more mining with less damage than any other place on earth. Minnesotans are smart enough to do this.

I have spent too much time on this thread so I am done. Thank You JIM P.
 
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