Will be heading up there in just a few days. One of our group is debating bringing a firearm. I have read previous threads on the topic and I do understand the general rules and controversy surrounding the topic. My only question is with this specific route, does he stand to get in serious trouble with Canada if he portages on the wrong side of the water?

The short answer is "no". There are no customs officers patrolling the border waters between the BW and Q (at least that we know of). If you have one in your pack, no one will know and there will be no one asking to inspect your packs.

With that said, there is no reason to bring a gun. None.

portages are the place you most need a firearm, bears, wolves and mountain lions lay in wait to ambush along them, Canadians know this better than anyone so they won’t hassle you about it, another place are the latrines, animals are aware that’s when you are most vulnerable, with your pants down, I never use a latrine without one in the chamber and the safety off

Lol, Zara. I do understand that he's probably more likely to accidentally shoot me than save me from anything. Will sleep inside my kevlar canoe to be safe.

one more thing, if you climb a tree, be sure to take a gun with you, animals know that eventually you'll have to climb down, so they wait below, you don't want to get stuck in a tree while animals have their way with your gear as another has you pinned in a tree

There is a treaty that allows us to use the portages on the Canadian side. However I am not sure how the gun thing works. You have to go through hoops to bring a gun into Canada even when hunting. Also they have very tight restrictions on hand guns. I would check with customs.

longblueveil: "Lol, Zara. I do understand that he's probably more likely to accidentally shoot me than save me from anything. Will sleep inside my kevlar canoe to be safe. "

Sleeping in a Kevlar canoe to stay safe is funny!

Maybe just invite riverrunner along. He could train you to protect yourself from all the dangerous creatures that lurk in the dark.

Really doubt there will be any legal issues. Even if there is the odds of being stopped and checked would be pretty low. If for some reason you do get stopped then it might be best to disclose the firearm assuming its holstered and on someone at the time. If the firearm is packed away in a pack then I probably wouldn't disclose it since its not likely they'll be searching packs. However, if you're going to leave the firearm stored away in a pack save the weight and just leave it at home. A firearm packed away is pretty much worthless as you won't have any time to retrieve it in the event you actually need it.

With that said I'll add in my opinion that bringing a firearm is mostly just added weight and bulk that serves very little purpose. Unless you're bringing a firearm for hunting purposes I'd leave it at home. You could paddle everyday for 10 lifetimes and still never find a reason to need a firearm in the BWCA.

Bushpilot: "There is a treaty that allows us to use the portages on the Canadian side. However I am not sure how the gun thing works. You have to go through hoops to bring a gun into Canada even when hunting. Also they have very tight restrictions on hand guns. I would check with customs."

I would like to see the text of the treaty and any legal cases resulting from it. It appears the intent was to allow citizens of both countries to travel along the route without being encumbered by the rules of the other country just because the portage happened to pass on one side of the border or the other.

So could someone legally hunting or possessing a firearm on the US side use a portage that happened to pass through Canada without being encumbered by Canadian law? Could a Canadian legally possessing pot use a portage that happened to pass on the US side without being subject to US law?

I wouldn't want to test it to find out, but it seems to me both would be legal. The idea was that people could use the portages to travel along the route without having to stay on "their own side", one of the few times politicians legalized what is practical and makes common sense.

way to take the high road.

At the time the treaty was written it most likely was a given that travelers would be armed.

If it was codified into the treaty it's self, now that is another question.

Firearm law has changed a lot from the time the treaty was written.

It would be nice to read a copy of the actual treaty to see what it says.

As of now processing a handgun in Canada can get one in serious trouble.

Rifles and shotguns with the proper paper work can be transported into Canada.

If one is going to carry a handgun avoiding Canada is advisable.

The full text of the Webster-Ashburton Treaty of 1842 can be found at this link:

Webster-Ashburton Treaty

The relevant portion of the document, as it pertains to this discussion, is the last sentence of Article II: " It being understood that all the water-communications, and all the usual portages along the line from Lake Superior to the Lake of the Woods; and also Grand Portage, from the shore of Lake Superior to the Pigeon river, as now actually used, shall be free and open to the use of the citizens and subjects of both countries."

This is the portion of the treaty that allows citizens of both countries to use the boundary portages for travel. It does not grant carte blanche for smuggling illegal items, such as firearms, along the border.

If your friend feels he must bring a firearm, then he must stay on the US side of the border and not use the Canadian portages.

longblueveil: "... more likely to accidentally shoot me ..."

Especially true if he brings his handgun into the tent! Not needed.

Finding the text of the treaty is incredibly easy. As for being unencumbered by laws of the other nation while on a border lake, try ignoring Canadian fishing laws on that side of the line if you are from the US, and visa versa.

Oops, when did TBG's post appear?

Holy crap. Somebody actually thinks an Internet forum is reliable regarding the consequences of taking a handgun into Canada.

There are a number of (now wiser) Alaska-bound travelers who could provide better advice:

Guns and Canada Crossing the Border

Bringing a Firearm into Canada

I think we understood Canada's stance on handguns. My question was more of local culture/enforcement in this somewhat nuanced and shared space, where we have been specifically told that some rules don't apply.

I guess I could have asked, since we are allowed to share the portages, is doing so not considered "crossing the border".

Thanks for all of the responses! The treaty info specifically was great!

What I learned is no throwing stars are allowed in Canada, so I will never paddle north with ninjas.

Apparently all of you figure back in the 1800's everyone traveled this route sans firearms,
There is a big difference between smuggling something into Canada or fishing without a license, and somebody using the portage as allowed by treaty.
And that was the original question that many of you seemingly fail to understand.

ZaraSp00k: "Apparently all of you figure back in the 1800's everyone traveled this route sans firearms,"

Actually, I think everybody very clearly understands that those traveling the border route in the 1800's did so with firearms. They also did so obeying the firearms laws, or lack of, that applied at the time. Modern travelers are expected to comply with modern laws of the jurisdiction in which they are traveling.

Daniel Webster for the US and Lord Ashburton for Britain were diplomats of the highest order who exercised a lot of uncommon common sense in their treaty. They were determined to end the hostilities between the nations (trade wars, impressment of seamen, etc. from pre-Revolutionary War and War of 1812 times) to create a great alliance which survives to this day. The treaty settling the Revolutionary War was vague and sometimes just wrong on the location of the border: it relied on an old map which had the Mississippi crossing the 49th parallel, and a non-existent island in Lake Superior as a boundary point.

The Webster - Ashburton Treaty created a Boundary Commission to survey the boundary lands from Maine to Lake of the Woods. Many issues were negotiated through the Commission, including what was the common thread of waterways and which islands belonged to which nation. Look at the maps for Lac La Croix and the Loon River to see how complex this was. Some of the lines which do not appear logical resulted from horse-trading along other parts of the border Not until the 1920s were all the contended issues settled. William Lass authored "Minnesota's Border with Canada" describing all this in great and fascinating detail.

I haven't seen much on border enforcement between International Falls and Highway 61 at Grand Portage. Some years back some drug smugglers were caught when Border Patrol followed their snowmobile tracks across frozen Rainy Lake to their front door (where's a blizzard when you need it?); a Canadian felon was caught wading across the Pigeon River near Highway 61 after his driver from Thunder Bay snitched on him; and then we had the Prairie Portage baitfishing episode of 2018, but I think that was not Border Patrol but conservation agency enforcement. A couple of years ago the Border Patrol had two agents paddling the border lakes, but I suspect they are now patrolling the Rio Grande. Never heard of any busts on the border lakes.

Strict constructionists on this board have opined that the right of portage is restricted to carrying canoes and packs across, with no stopping to lunch, rest, or presumably take a pee. Others argue that border enforcers and the courts would look to the customary use of the portages by the voyaguers including smoking a pipe (see "Have A Smoke Portage" in the Quetico, for instance) and stopping for a chaw of pemmican. Remains to be seen if a 9 round magazine pistol will equate to a muzzle loading flintlock, though. Probably won't find out until a paddler is accidentally shot in the butt and needs to be evacuated.

It seems I have started a bigger conversation than I intended. To be safe, I will ask him to float his firearm down the portages in a dry bag to be reclaimed when he re-enters the US.

Perhaps its best for anyone considering this to ignore everything that has been said here and instead call the proper Canadian authorities that can provide a more concrete answer regarding legality.

Nothing said here is anything more than opinion and we all know what they say about opinions.

longblueveil: "It seems I have started a bigger conversation than I intended. To be safe, I will ask him to float his firearm down the portages in a dry bag to be reclaimed when he re-enters the US."

You are a man with a brilliant plan. Tell him to float his throwing stars too if he's a ninja.

I agree with Nofish. To actually get an answer you should call some Law Enforcement near that area that actually would deal with it.

missmolly: "What I learned is no throwing stars are allowed in Canada, so I will never paddle north with ninjas. "

If they could catch your ninja paddling partner then he was not a ninja worth paddling with in the first place.

thebotanyguy: "

ZaraSp00k: "Apparently all of you figure back in the 1800's everyone traveled this route sans firearms,"

Actually, I think everybody very clearly understands that those traveling the border route in the 1800's did so with firearms. They also did so obeying the firearms laws, or lack of, that applied at the time. Modern travelers are expected to comply with modern laws of the jurisdiction in which they are traveling."

OtherBob: "Daniel Webster for the US and Lord Ashburton for Britain were diplomats of the highest order who exercised a lot of uncommon common sense in their treaty."

And their discussion of the Caroline incident shows how both agreed that users of the border waters were expected to comply with the laws of the jurisdiction in which they were traveling.

missmolly: "

longblueveil: "Lol, Zara. I do understand that he's probably more likely to accidentally shoot me than save me from anything. Will sleep inside my kevlar canoe to be safe. "

Sleeping in a Kevlar canoe to stay safe is funny! "

You know, until this thread I'd never considered that my canoe is probably the safest place to be if there's a firefight...

nofish: "

missmolly: "What I learned is no throwing stars are allowed in Canada, so I will never paddle north with ninjas. "

If they could catch your ninja paddling partner then he was not a ninja worth paddling with in the first place.

"

A reputable BWCA ninja would be carrying a Katanaboy, I think.

I suspect those vests have a few more layers than a MN2. May want to pile up a few canoes.

Honestly, I expected this to be a common problem with a widely established answer. Seems there's enough ambiguity that I think it won't be difficult to leave the weapons at home or risk becoming a Michel Jalbert. It only takes one person with a different opinion to give you a hard time.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-feb-16-adna-mborder16-story.html

I will paddle eternal, Kevlar and Ursack.
(Modified w/o permission from MissMolly)

longblueveil: "I suspect those vests have a few more layers than a MN2. May want to pile up a few canoes.


Honestly, I expected this to be a common problem with a widely established answer. Seems there's enough ambiguity that I think it won't be difficult to leave the weapons at home or risk becoming a Michel Jalbert. It only takes one person with a different opinion to give you a hard time.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-feb-16-adna-mborder16-story.html"

That is a disturbing story. All should read it.

Funny, nofish and Tom!

longblueveil: "It seems I have started a bigger conversation than I intended. To be safe, I will ask him to float his firearm down the portages in a dry bag to be reclaimed when he re-enters the US."

I would just ask him to leave it in the truck.
I'm an avid gun-toter here and there. But I've never has the desire to carry one in the B'dub. It's just unnecessary weight. I'd gladly swap my Ruger for a pound of leeches.

jillpine: "I will paddle eternal, Kevlar and Ursack.
(Modified w/o permission from MissMolly)
"

Hey, borrow away, but be aware that you have lifted from a thief.

longblueveil: "I suspect those vests have a few more layers than a MN2. May want to pile up a few canoes.


Honestly, I expected this to be a common problem with a widely established answer. Seems there's enough ambiguity that I think it won't be difficult to leave the weapons at home or risk becoming a Michel Jalbert. It only takes one person with a different opinion to give you a hard time.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-feb-16-adna-mborder16-story.html"

Here's what grates me about this story: They budgeted money to lie in wait and bushwhack the Canadian man, likely paying time and a half or double time, but they don't budget the money to man the crossing station past one in the afternoon, forcing the working man to break the law to spend his hard-earned money at an American business.

longblueveil: "I suspect those vests have a few more layers than a MN2. May want to pile up a few canoes.
"

Great thread here, that settles it ;-)
I'm trading in my tents and folding canoe with a plastic skin for a Grumman canoe, it should be as good as a bullet proof vest.

Jackfish: "The short answer is "no". There are no customs officers patrolling the border waters between the BW and Q (at least that we know of). If you have one in your pack, no one will know and there will be no one asking to inspect your packs.

With that said, there is no reason to bring a gun. None."

There have been Border patrols or custom agents this last few years making a few trips along the border looking for illegal immigration, or to say at least they covered this area also. Actually saw the Border Patrol land on the Basswood border like four years ago. Maybe they quit this last year. Also saw them going by boat. Note - all of this was like two years ago or so.

As far as guns on the Canadian portage, I don't know. Yes you can use it to portage as others have said.

longblueveil: "...Will sleep inside my kevlar canoe to be safe. "

As I recall, the original Bell website addressed this very issue and basically say no, a kevlar boat will not stop a bullet.

Its been a while since we’ve had a good old gun thread. Everyone gets all wound up.

Mine stays in the car once I get to the BWCA.

Not worried about bears or mountain lions, I can still run faster than my kids.

I will say that if I were to want to take a gun along with me, the absolute LAST thing i would do is contact Canada.
That would just be stupid. Anyone who would do that shouldn't own guns.
Leave it in the truck - take another pound of leeches.

I'd be more symathetic towards the French -Canadien if it weren't for this:
"Prosecutors say Jalbert, 33, not only was in the country illegally, he had a gun and a criminal record. (He was convicted in 1990 of breaking and entering and possession of stolen property, but served no jail time.) He was charged with two felonies: being an illegal alien in possession of a firearm and a felon in possession of a firearm.

They say he ignored two previous warnings about failing to check in at U.S. Customs in Estcourt."

Canada cracks down hard on US citizens with a record, so if people want to complain about the US Border Patrol treatment of Jalbert, they should first complain to their own government about treatment of US citizens.
If Canada doesn't want convicted felons in their country that's their right, but then don't complain about the reverse happening.

I am unable to find text regarding the area under discussion, but here it is about another section, one would assume the same idea applies to portages along the border in the BWCA area:
"In order to promote the interests and encourage the industry of all the inhabitants of the countries watered by the river St. John and its tributaries, whether living within the State of Maine or the Province of New Brunswick, it is agreed that, where, by the provisions of the present treaty, the river St. John is declared to be the line of boundary, the navigation of the said river shall be free and open to both Parties, and shall in no way be obstructed by either"

There is a business on the North Fowl Lake that must use the portage between it and Mountain/Moose that is on Canada soil. If a hunter needs to get to areas to the west they need to use that portage and it would seem the Treaty was written specifically so people of both nations could use these portages as a unencumbered thruway to conduct their business.

Simple solution, contact Canadian customs and ask. The easiest way to go to jail is to depend on the opinions you read on the internet from people who don’t really know

KarlBAndersen1: "

longblueveil: "It seems I have started a bigger conversation than I intended. To be safe, I will ask him to float his firearm down the portages in a dry bag to be reclaimed when he re-enters the US."

I would just ask him to leave it in the truck. I'm an avid gun-toter here and there, but I've never had the desire to carry one in the B'dub. It's just unnecessary weight. I'd gladly swap my Ruger for a pound of leeches. "

Are you sure it would be legal to carry leeches across a border portage that is in Canada in Quetico, or barbed hooks for that matter?

It's the same question as the gun. Are you entitled to use the portage to go about your business unencumbered or not? You might just be trading one problem for another.

I’ve taken this route 5-6 times. If the debate is over necessity, I would say there’s little need for a gun. We brought one the first year and then never again. Swapped it out with a bear spray. I have never seen any border/ranger types that were checking bags or permits.

ZaraSp00k: "

KarlBAndersen1: "

longblueveil: "It seems I have started a bigger conversation than I intended. To be safe, I will ask him to float his firearm down the portages in a dry bag to be reclaimed when he re-enters the US."

I would just ask him to leave it in the truck. I'm an avid gun-toter here and there, but I've never had the desire to carry one in the B'dub. It's just unnecessary weight. I'd gladly swap my Ruger for a pound of leeches. "

Are you sure it would be legal to carry leeches across a border portage that is in Canada in Quetico, or barbed hooks for that matter?

It's the same question as the gun. Are you entitled to use the portage to go about your business unencumbered or not? You might just be trading one problem for another."

Just go. You can't USE live bait in Quetico. I never saw a regulation about carrying them. And the barbed hooks are in your tackle box - not hanging off the side of the canoe.

Geez, don't over think this.

So longblueveil, I'm just curious. Why does your friend want to perhaps bring a handgun on the trip anyway? Like some of the other posters, I have a permit to conceal carry and do so on a regular basis, but I personally don't see the need up there......

Not real sure. He is comfortable with them and takes them places.

I'm not the right person to make the pro-gun argument, I'm afraid. I suppose going somewhere isolated they provide some limited survival value, as well as safety from malicious humans.

While the BWCA has been fortunate, I guess other isolated places like the AT have had a few rare incidents.

unshavenman: "So longblueveil, I'm just curious. Why does your friend want to perhaps bring a handgun on the trip anyway? Like some of the other posters, I have a permit to conceal carry and do so on a regular basis, but I personally don't see the need up there......"

"Endeavor to persevere." is a cool personal quote, but if you told BeaV or KendrA that, they'd say, "Duh."

missmolly: "

unshavenman: "So longblueveil, I'm just curious. Why does your friend want to perhaps bring a handgun on the trip anyway? Like some of the other posters, I have a permit to conceal carry and do so on a regular basis, but I personally don't see the need up there......"

"Endeavor to persevere." is a cool personal quote, but if you told BeaV or KendrA that, they'd say, "Duh.""

Who can argue with Chief Dan George?

missmolly: "

longblueveil: "It seems I have started a bigger conversation than I intended. To be safe, I will ask him to float his firearm down the portages in a dry bag to be reclaimed when he re-enters the US."

You are a man with a brilliant plan. Tell him to float his throwing stars too if he's a ninja. "

...and never climb a tree with your pants down.