BWCA Moose hunt Isle Royale Boundary Waters Listening Point - General Discussion
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Bushpilot
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10/07/2019 05:20PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
There is talk of allowing a hunt on the Island. I know it has been discussed here before and I said I was all for the hunt. This makes me hungry for moose ribs. It would be nice if this was a US resident hunt and not a Michigan resident hunt. I doubt it would work that way. The moose on the Island are about half the size of the Alaskan moose. This is because of lack of good food on the Island.

Link to the story.
 
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Savage Voyageur
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10/07/2019 05:35PM  
I’m so glad the Moose numbers are up this year. I was backpacking there about 30 years ago. There were over 2000 on the island at that time too, and about 50 wolves. Kind of makes me wonder just why the moose numbers are so low on the mainland. Could it be as simple as reducing the number of wolves?
 
10/07/2019 07:48PM  
Here's what you're looking for. From our campsite on Siskiwit Lake, summer 2015.
 
10/07/2019 08:31PM  
Savage Voyageur: "I’m so glad the Moose numbers are up this year. I was backpacking there about 30 years ago. There were over 2000 on the island at that time too, and about 50 wolves. Kind of makes me wonder just why the moose numbers are so low on the mainland. Could it be as simple as reducing the number of wolves? "


Reducing the deer population in NE Minnesota would greatly help the moose herd. High deer populations tend to result in a lot of brainworm-caused deaths in moose, and keep wolf numbers high.
 
10/07/2019 08:33PM  
Bushpilot: "There is talk of allowing a hunt on the Island. I know it has been discussed here before and I said I was all for the hunt. "


As much as I am generally against hunting in national parks, it makes total sense to reduce the moose herd by hunting on Isle Royale, because the current wolf numbers are so low that they cannot keep the moose herd from expanding to the point where they utterly destroy the island's vegetation.

Moose are not actually native to Isle Royale, anyway. Woodland caribou are. Moose were introduced by wealthy members of hunting clubs in the early 20th Century. They did not swim or cross the ice from the mainland, as has been the story for many years.
 
BobDobbs
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10/08/2019 07:28AM  
I think it's a good idea. Isle Royale is a national treasure, but it is by no means some pristine virgin wilderness.

I'm not interested in participating myself. The logistics of moving 500lbs of dead moose off that island are daunting.

Not great options are chartering a sea-plane or taking the ferry. Neither are 'on demand', so there is the additional challenge of trying to keep that much meat safe from heat/bugs during the interim (as well as dealing with dirty looks from probably half the hikers).

The other option would be a private watercraft, which would be the most expensive, but could have processing facilities and a freezer on board.
 
riverrunner
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10/08/2019 08:23AM  
It is a good idea.

I am all for hunting in National Parks when the there is a excessive number of any species in the park in question.

If done right it could even bring in revenue to help keep the parks viable.

Modern game management has done away with the need for total protection.
 
Savage Voyageur
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10/08/2019 08:43AM  
Here is an interesting article from Jan 2018. It talks about introducing wolves from Canada because they know how to kill a huge animal like a moose. I just figured a Wolf was a wolf and they all understood how to kill, apparently not. Article
 
DukeC
member (24)member
  
05/14/2023 10:25AM  

55th North American Moose Conference and Workshop
Tribal hunt will be on the agenda.
 
05/14/2023 08:20PM  
Actually, the Moose population is still high on Isle Royale but has dropped significantly in the last two years as the wolf population built back up, I also think calf survival is really low now there, similar to the BWCA area.
 
05/15/2023 07:46AM  

My wife and I have backpacked Isle Royale National Park for many years primarily because of it's remote and pristine nature. We have had the privilege of meeting Rolf Peterson and John Vucetich who have been the primary researchers on the Wolf/Moose Predator/Prey study over the past 50 years. While there is no definitive proof of how the moose arrived on the island, there is no knowledge or record that they were introduced to the island. We do know that the wolves crossed to the island on an ice bridge from Canada.

The moose/wolf numbers have always fluctuated over the years in an inverse relationship. Wolf numbers would decline when there were fewer moose to eat and moose numbers would increase when there was less predation from fewer wolves. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the islands vegetation cannot support huge numbers of moose so hunting has been considered as a method of reducing those numbers. One problem with hunting moose would be how to pack out a moose kill. Wheeled carts are not allowed and to allow that would alter the pristine and natural nature of this place. Also, there would need to be an understanding that the large, healthy, "trophy" animals would need to be left.

The current number of wolves found on Isle Royale is about 30 which is more than twice the number just two years ago. I think nature will take care of itself. IMHO....
 
FishGeek01
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05/15/2023 02:47PM  
I know nothing of what it would take to relocate these animals, as they are so big, But wouldn't that also be an option, to help bolster the mainland herd numbers?
 
KawnipiKid
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05/16/2023 05:41PM  
I don’t think a public hunt will ever happen. Whether it's a good or bad idea, the US Department of Interior and National Park Service don’t put much (or any) stock in state legislative action concerning national park land. They don’t have to. A state legislature can't make this happen by state law. State pressure might get some traction with the NPS when there's a major shared issue bleeding over on to non-park land. Isle Royale, of course, has no land of any state directly abutting it. The Park Service has no incentive to consider this unless it fits their agenda. People hunting on Isle Royale does not fit their agenda.

The moose population crashes on its own naturally when the wolves don’t balance things out. The Isle has had more moose in the past than it does today (2,500 or 2,600 in 1995). When the habitat is over-browsed and/or the ticks have a few banner years and/or there is a tough few winters in a row, the moose population plunges regardless of wolves. Plus, as already mentioned, the moose number is already down with more wolves on the Isle.

With the Isle's remoteness, lack of lodging except very dispersed and mostly difficult to reach campsites, no wheeled vehicles or roads of any kind, transport issues to and from Michigan and Minnesota, stretched seasonal-only park staffing and the park closing to the public completely from late October to mid-April, the idea of a moose hunt is not going anywhere in my opinion.

My sons' family has had a direct presence on Isle Royale since 1909. For what it's worth, the original fishing families and earliest summer families always said the moose came by ice. The pre-park resorts in the 1910s to 30s didn't cater to hunting like some North Shore Minnesota lodges did. The Isle Royale resorts were marketed to and popular with families escaping the summer heat and allergies. Everyone except the commercial fishing families boarded up and were gone before moose season. There certainly was hunting, but I don't think it was of moose brought out to be hunted.
 
chessie
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05/23/2023 06:35AM  
Some would argue that the temps on the island are moderated by its location, and thus the moose are not as adversely impacted by warming. To a comment above, moose do not do well walking on ice. It's much more probable that they swam to the island. It is a tremendous challenge for wolves to take a healthy adult moose. For an interesting read, check out: Wolf Island, Discovering the Secrets of a Mythic Animal, by L. David Mech and Greg Breining, published in 2020 (U of M Press).
 
DukeC
member (24)member
  
06/05/2023 06:41PM  
Sounds like a hunt will happen, at least for the Chippewa.
 
KawnipiKid
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06/06/2023 05:23PM  
DukeC: "Sounds like a hunt will happen, at least for the Chippewa. "


DukeC, What happened at the moose conference regarding a hunt? I can't find any reports and tried the logo you posted as a link but no luck. Thanks!
 
gravelroad
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06/07/2023 12:14PM  
KawnipiKid: "
DukeC: "Sounds like a hunt will happen, at least for the Chippewa. "



DukeC, What happened at the moose conference regarding a hunt? I can't find any reports and tried the logo you posted as a link but no luck. Thanks!
"


An answer can be inferred from listening to this podcast. I haven’t seen any public announcement yet, but the facts cited in the podcast and my knowledge of federal Indian law tell me there will be a tribal hunt on Isle Royale in the not-distant future:

Recap of Moose Conference in Grand Portage
 
06/07/2023 12:33PM  
Because Isle Royale is under the National Park Service’s jurisdiction, a hunt at the park would require federal approval. A 2018 NPS report on the subject dismissed the idea of moose hunts or a managed culling of the population, noting logistical difficulties and potential impacts to Isle Royale’s wilderness.
 
gravelroad
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06/07/2023 02:17PM  
Pinetree: "Because Isle Royale is under the National Park Service’s jurisdiction, a hunt at the park would require federal approval. A 2018 NPS report on the subject dismissed the idea of moose hunts or a managed culling of the population, noting logistical difficulties and potential impacts to Isle Royale’s wilderness."


No, federal approval is NOT required under the theory of the case advanced in that podcast I linked to. The terms of such a hunt might well be worked out collaboratively, but federal approval is not required:

The Right to Hunt and Fish Therein
 
06/07/2023 02:47PM  
gravelroad: "
Pinetree: "Because Isle Royale is under the National Park Service’s jurisdiction, a hunt at the park would require federal approval. A 2018 NPS report on the subject dismissed the idea of moose hunts or a managed culling of the population, noting logistical difficulties and potential impacts to Isle Royale’s wilderness."



No, federal approval is NOT required under the theory of the case advanced in that podcast I linked to. The terms of such a hunt might well be worked out collaboratively, but federal approval is not required:


The Right to Hunt and Fish Therein "


The National Park I know has the right to not allow motorized use as court cases have been shown to do and the Supreme court has said private land hunting supersedes the treaty.
The scope of the whole thing is beyond my level.
 
DukeC
member (24)member
  
06/07/2023 05:30PM  
Pinetree: "Because Isle Royale is under the National Park Service’s jurisdiction, a hunt at the park would require federal approval. A 2018 NPS report on the subject dismissed the idea of moose hunts or a managed culling of the population, noting logistical difficulties and potential impacts to Isle Royale’s wilderness."

Simple not true according to the treaties. But to many that means nothing!!

As far as the comments on how hard it would be to take a moose out of the woods on Minong....How many moose have you bagged?? Seldom are they harvested in an open field.
 
KawnipiKid
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06/07/2023 06:28PM  
gravelroad: "
KawnipiKid: "
DukeC: "Sounds like a hunt will happen, at least for the Chippewa. "




DukeC, What happened at the moose conference regarding a hunt? I can't find any reports and tried the logo you posted as a link but no luck. Thanks!
"



An answer can be inferred from listening to this podcast. I haven’t seen any public announcement yet, but the facts cited in the podcast and my knowledge of federal Indian law tell me there will be a tribal hunt on Isle Royale in the not-distant future:


Recap of Moose Conference in Grand Portage "


Gravelroad,
Thanks for the info. I'll check out the podcast.
 
06/07/2023 06:55PM  
DukeC: "
Pinetree: "Because Isle Royale is under the National Park Service’s jurisdiction, a hunt at the park would require federal approval. A 2018 NPS report on the subject dismissed the idea of moose hunts or a managed culling of the population, noting logistical difficulties and potential impacts to Isle Royale’s wilderness."

Simple not true according to the treaties. But to many that means nothing!!

As far as the comments on how hard it would be to take a moose out of the woods on Minong....How many moose have you bagged?? Seldom are they harvested in an open field."


Yes I was fortunate enough to bag a moose in Minnesota and yes we back packed it out and used a sled to get it out. Cut up and divided in 6 chunks by myself. My partner showed up when I had it hauled out. Yes I was involved in other moose hunts also.
 
DukeC
member (24)member
  
06/07/2023 07:11PM  
Minnesota moose are very tasty, too bad the numbers are so low.
 
DukeC
member (24)member
  
06/11/2023 07:19AM  
gravelroad: "
KawnipiKid: "
DukeC: "Sounds like a hunt will happen, at least for the Chippewa. "




DukeC, What happened at the moose conference regarding a hunt? I can't find any reports and tried the logo you posted as a link but no luck. Thanks!
"



An answer can be inferred from listening to this podcast. I haven’t seen any public announcement yet, but the facts cited in the podcast and my knowledge of federal Indian law tell me there will be a tribal hunt on Isle Royale in the not-distant future:


Recap of Moose Conference in Grand Portage "


Thanks for posting the podcast link. Tim Cochrane also points out that according to the treaties (1842,1844,1854) the Chippewa still have the rights to copper, logging, etc... on Minong and Minnesota also.

Last week I overheard a lady at the folk school say," let the Indians mine with a shovel, fish in a birch bark canoe and hunt with a bow and arrow...if not throw them in jail".
Everyone has their own opinion, I guess.
 
gravelroad
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06/14/2023 08:48AM  
A moose hunt in the near term just became less likely:

“ Isle Royale’s transplanted wolf population continues to grow while the island’s moose population continues to starve and crash.

“Those were the findings released Wednesday from the 64th annual winter survey held earlier this year by researchers from Michigan Technological University. It’s the longest-running research project on predator-prey relationships in the world.

“The survey estimated that 31 wolves live on the island, up from 28 last year. The moose count was 967, down 28% from 2022 and down 54% from two years ago — two of the steepest annual declines ever in the study.”

Isle Royale's transplanted wolf population is growing
 
06/14/2023 09:50AM  
Thanks for the info-been trying to find this year's estimates.

My nephew and his boy scouts just got back from hiking Isle Royale. They saw 9 moose, but no calves.
They saw one snowshoe rabbit and workers said they never do or see Ruff grouse so rare. Kind of interesting.

 
GunflintTrailAngler
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06/14/2023 06:05PM  
There are no ruffed grouse on Isle Royale.
 
06/14/2023 06:25PM  
GunflintTrailAngler: "There are no ruffed grouse on Isle Royale. "


Yes, that is amazing and what is also is amazing they once had sharptail grouse in the 1930s. A bird of open brushland and fields.
 
KawnipiKid
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06/14/2023 08:10PM  
There's also no bear, deer, raccoon, porcupine, bobcat, lynx or coyote on Isle Royale. I guess there's only about half, 14-16 of almost 40, of the mammals found on the mainland.
 
06/14/2023 08:26PM  
Very interesting ecosystem, wonder if certain species benefit from the absence of those species. Some birds and mammals must. I guess the red fox are really tame to humans out there.
 
BearClan
member (13)member
  
07/24/2023 08:47AM  
Last year 400 moose died on the Island. 75% starved to death 25% were killed by the wolves the that the taxpayers flew to the Island. Moose population is well below 1000, that is down from over 2000 a few years ago.

It will be interesting to see how the wolf/moose do with all the manipulation from the research experts.
 
gravelroad
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07/24/2023 11:24AM  
BearClan: "Last year 400 moose died on the Island. 75% starved to death 25% were killed by the wolves the that the taxpayers flew to the Island. Moose population is well below 1000, that is down from over 2000 a few years ago.


It will be interesting to see how the wolf/moose do were all the manipulation from the research experts. "


I was not a fan of the wolf restocking when it was done. Not because I dislike wolves, which I don't – it was the arrogance (and the research "needs") behind it that stuck in my craw.
 
BearClan
member (13)member
  
07/24/2023 01:18PM  
I might add the wolves don't eat the moose that starved, there is no fat on those animals. The wolves kill the young and healthy moose.
 
GunflintTrailAngler
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07/26/2023 09:40AM  
There’s no fat on a healthy moose! Cows have fat! Moose, deer, elk, etc have no fat in their meat whatsoever. They are all muscle.
 
07/26/2023 10:13AM  
GunflintTrailAngler: "There’s no fat on a healthy moose! Cows have fat! Moose, deer, elk, etc have no fat in their meat whatsoever. They are all muscle."


As a deer hunter I will say especially whitetail deer will have like 2.0 inches of fat built up on their back, especially the back part. They will have thick layers on the ribs etc. The same goes for elk. Moose I know have fat also.
Without those fat reserves up north many of these animals would not make it thru the winter. Yes, the males in all these species lose much of this fat during the rut.
 
07/26/2023 10:19AM  
BearClan: "I might add the wolves don't eat the moose that starved, there is no fat on those animals. The wolves kill the young and healthy moose."


Wolves have no problem eating deer that are near starvation and fat reserves are gone. The majority of deer are killed by wolves, outside of the first 60 days of a fawn's life, the deer are killed as fat reserves diminish in the winter.
 
BearClan
member (13)member
  
07/26/2023 04:56PM  
GunflintTrailAngler: "There’s no fat on a healthy moose! Cows have fat! Moose, deer, elk, etc have no fat in their meat whatsoever. They are all muscle."
I am just telling what Rolf Peterson told me firsthand when I was with him last week. You might want to contact him and tell him he is wrong. Rolfs contact info can be found in this article about his research.
 
BearClan
member (13)member
  
07/26/2023 05:01PM  
Pinetree: "
BearClan: "I might add the wolves don't eat the moose that starved, there is no fat on those animals. The wolves kill the young and healthy moose."



Wolves have no problem eating deer that are near starvation and fat reserves are gone. The majority of deer are killed by wolves, outside of the first 60 days of a fawn's life, the deer are killed as fat reserves diminish in the winter. "


Read above. I was talking about moose not deer. The wolves on Isle Royale have become very bold 1 wolf took down and killed a moose at one of the lakes on Isle Royale last week. People camping at campsite in the park felt they were being harassed by wolf/wolves, so they started throwing rocks at the animal. This is not how I would behave but seems to be the way of the new tourist.

For the record the "researchers" don't want the hunt. I was told they don't want the Indians hunting "their moose", And if the hunt happens let the Indians hunt the way they use to ie bow and arrow.

Don't shoot the messenger I am just telling what I was told first hand.
 
07/26/2023 06:16PM  
BearClan: "
Pinetree: "
BearClan: "I might add the wolves don't eat the moose that starved, there is no fat on those animals. The wolves kill the young and healthy moose."




Wolves have no problem eating deer that are near starvation and fat reserves are gone. The majority of deer are killed by wolves, outside of the first 60 days of a fawn's life, the deer are killed as fat reserves diminish in the winter. "



Read above. I was talking about moose not deer. The wolves on Isle Royale have become very bold 1 wolf took down and killed a moose at one of the lakes on Isle Royale last week. People camping at campsite in the park felt they were being harassed by wolf/wolves, so they started throwing rocks at the animal. This is not how I would behave but seems to be the way of the new tourist.


For the record the "researchers" don't want the hunt. I was told they don't want the Indians hunting "their moose", And if the hunt happens let the Indians hunt the way they use to ie bow and arrow.


Don't shoot the messenger I am just telling what I was told first hand. "


Should have referred to the message below yours.
 
stonewoodstream
member (37)member
  
07/27/2023 12:52PM  
BearClan: "Read above. I was talking about moose not deer. The wolves on Isle Royale have become very bold 1 wolf took down and killed a moose at one of the lakes on Isle Royale last week. People camping at campsite in the park felt they were being harassed by wolf/wolves, so they started throwing rocks at the animal. This is not how I would behave but seems to be the way of the new tourist.
"


Which lake?
 
stonewoodstream
member (37)member
  
07/27/2023 12:55PM  
BearClan: "Read above. I was talking about moose not deer. The wolves on Isle Royale have become very bold 1 wolf took down and killed a moose at one of the lakes on Isle Royale last week. People camping at campsite in the park felt they were being harassed by wolf/wolves, so they started throwing rocks at the animal. This is not how I would behave but seems to be the way of the new tourist."


Source for this incident?
 
BearClan
member (13)member
  
07/27/2023 03:58PM  
I was on the Island when it happened. Desor Lake campground. This was cut and pasted from facebook and sent to me asking me if it was true. My answer was YES. I am not on facebook, however here is the link,

https://www.facebook.com/groups/43490726251


The dead moose was floating in the lake and her two calves were not leaving their mom. A wolf was checking out the mom and the calves but two campers were close by. The wolf took interest in the campers.
The campers returned to the S. Desor campground followed by the wolf. They yelled WOLF IN THE CAMPGROUND. I went for
My camera my buddy saw the wolf as it farted into the underbrush. I did not see the wolf but saw the brush rustle as it fled the scene.

Kim Johnson
Author
Top contributor
Bob Zrenner I was told the campers were throwing rocks at the wolf. Not how I would behave, but we do a new generation of tourist visiting the park.



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Bob Zrenner
Kim Johnson the camp had a lot of 20 somethings under the influence. They were not ideal camp mates.
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Kim Johnson
Author
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Thanks for your firsthand info Bob. Was the influencer liquor or weed? Both? The Island sure has changed since my fist visit in 1974.

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Bob Zrenner
Kim Johnson alcohol, they had a strong rowdy vibe. I’m sure there was weed too.
 
stonewoodstream
member (37)member
  
07/27/2023 07:45PM  
BearClan: "I was on the Island when it happened. Desor Lake campground. This was cut and pasted from facebook and sent to me asking me if it was true. My answer was YES. I am not on facebook, however here is the link,


https://www.facebook.com/groups/43490726251



The dead moose was floating in the lake and her two calves were not leaving their mom. A wolf was checking out the mom and the calves but two campers were close by. The wolf took interest in the campers.
The campers returned to the S. Desor campground followed by the wolf. They yelled WOLF IN THE CAMPGROUND. I went for
My camera my buddy saw the wolf as it farted into the underbrush. I did not see the wolf but saw the brush rustle as it fled the scene.


Kim Johnson
Author
Top contributor
Bob Zrenner I was told the campers were throwing rocks at the wolf. Not how I would behave, but we do a new generation of tourist visiting the park.



6
Like
Reply20h
Bob Zrenner
Kim Johnson the camp had a lot of 20 somethings under the influence. They were not ideal camp mates.
Like
Reply20h
Kim Johnson
Author
Top contributor
Thanks for your firsthand info Bob. Was the influencer liquor or weed? Both? The Island sure has changed since my fist visit in 1974.


Like
Reply20h
Bob Zrenner
Kim Johnson alcohol, they had a strong rowdy vibe. I’m sure there was weed too.
"


A lone farting wolf.

No indication that the weed/alcohol induced "20 somethings", who had a "rowdy vibe", actual saw the wolf kill the adult cow as you claimed. And somehow by itself.

Or how it took an "interest" in them, other than said drunk/stoned people claimed it followed them.

Or the distance involved in this "sighting."

And only reported on Facebook, which is how you were told "firsthand"?

IMHO, any preponderance of the validity of your argument seems minimal.
 
BearClan
member (13)member
  
07/27/2023 08:12PM  
It was Rolf Peterson that told me about the kill. His email address is in the article above. Look him up and tell him you think he is full of BS.
Here is a picture of the moose.

Do you maybe think the person might have meant to type darting? Do you know d and f are a fat finger away? Probably not!

Is there a way to block idiots on this site? Asking for a friend.
I am above this child like internet play so I am done with this post.

 
gravelroad
distinguished member(992)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/27/2023 09:04PM  
Call me a wuss, but I’m pretty sure I wouldn't want 95 kg of moose fat dropped on my foot:













CHANGES IN BODY COMPOSITION OF MOOSE DURING WINTER

I’m sure that there are times in the life of a moose that it has very little fat. I’m equally certain that any assertion that moose ”have no fat” is moose droppings.
 
07/27/2023 10:00PM  
Like deer as winter wanes fat reserves drop drastically, like deer losing 25% of their weight plus. That is one way they see if a deer dies of starvation-check bone marrow fat if present. Yes, a little different than back straps fat.
Animals are amazing in how they survive.
1995 winter was one of the worst ever in north central Minnesota and 90% of fawns died and 50% of does. That year deer were so weak, wolves had easy picking, often wolves just ate the delicacies- the internal organs.
 
stonewoodstream
member (37)member
  
07/29/2023 11:01AM  
BearClan: "It was Rolf Peterson that told me about the kill. His email address is in the article above. Look him up and tell him you think he is full of BS.
Here is a picture of the moose. "


I had no qualms contacting Rolf, and sending him a link to this thread. Attached is a copy of his response, in which he indicates he has no knowledge of this "incident."

Please respond when you have time...

 
gravelroad
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07/29/2023 04:29PM  
stonewoodstream: "I had no qualms contacting Rolf, and sending him a link to this thread. Attached is a copy of his response, in which he indicates he has no knowledge of this "incident." "


As I suspected from the get-go …
 
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