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NebraskaDano
member (7)member
 
05/13/2020 10:50PM
Did anyone hear that the trip restrictions state that all parties must be from a single family. Meaning you cannot go into the Bwca with other people besides your family.
 
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05/14/2020 12:11AM
Here’s an article on it. We’ll see what the forest service does.


 
Duckman
distinguished member (365)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 06:37AM
I take it this means I can't drive up and go camp with family already up there?
 
OMGitsKa
senior member (61)senior membersenior member
 
05/14/2020 08:27AM
Duckman: "I take it this means I can't drive up and go camp with family already up there?"

Duckman honestly, I'm sure you could. Just be smart about it. Don't be sharing drinks, food.. Keep distance when possible.
 
NebraskaDano
member (7)member
 
05/14/2020 09:36AM
So I will be able to go up to Ely with my camping buddies. Grab drinks at Zaverals and go eat a Bucky burger. But I will not be allowed into the BWCA. I hope there is some clarification because that doesn't make sense.
 
thegildedgopher
distinguished member(605)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 09:51AM
The word wasn't "family," it was "household" -- "Dispersed and remote camping sites for single household use."

Don't shoot the messenger, but it's pretty cut and dried.
 
Duckman
distinguished member (365)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 10:00AM
Yep. It's one of those situations I could probably go up to my brother's house and leave with them, and there would be no issues.

But there's also a chance we get checked, I don't lie, and I become a news story and pay for trying to sidestep the rule.

Sounds like I'll be aiming for fall shoulder season this year.
 
adam
Moderator
 
05/14/2020 10:10AM

My interpretation of the "single household use" is campsites that don't support more than 10 people which is a BWCA campsite by design. It is not that all these people need to be from the same household. They are trying to discourage 100 yahoos from finding some remote area and having a big party.
 
inspector13
distinguished member(3981)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 10:19AM
NebraskaDano: "So I will be able to go up to Ely with my camping buddies. Grab drinks at Zaverals and go eat a Bucky burger. But I will not be allowed into the BWCA. I hope there is some clarification because that doesn't make sense. "
You'll have to eat your Bucky burger sitting on the sidewalk and wash it down with a Coke since restaurants are take out only and bars are still closed.

 
SoMpls
distinguished member (129)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 11:21AM
adam: "
My interpretation of the "single household use" is campsites that don't support more than 10 people which is a BWCA campsite by design. It is not that all these people need to be from the same household. They are trying to discourage 100 yahoos from finding some remote area and having a big party."


I doubt this is the case. They have repeatedly used the term household to describe people you live with. I'm sure that's what it means in this case too. Though I do agree it seems silly that I could have up to 10 people over to my house for a dinner party but couldn't go camping with even one of those same people.
 
CoffeeInTheWoods
distinguished member (113)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 12:02PM
Well, I've got a May 22 permit for Sawbill with three buddies. I'm guessing they'll clarify the language soon. I'm no lawyer, but remember Gov. Walz's words apply to state properties and the USFS can go different directions. So theoretically, "single family households" can camp on remote STATE property, but FEDERAL property (BW, Superior NF) could be different.

I told my group that if the language and seeming meaning is adopted by the NFS for the BW, I'll be taking a solo trip.

SoMpls: "adam: "
My interpretation of the "single household use" is campsites that don't support more than 10 people which is a BWCA campsite by design. It is not that all these people need to be from the same household. They are trying to discourage 100 yahoos from finding some remote area and having a big party."



I doubt this is the case. They have repeatedly used the term household to describe people you live with. I'm sure that's what it means in this case too. Though I do agree it seems silly that I could have up to 10 people over to my house for a dinner party but couldn't go camping with even one of those same people. "
 
schweady
distinguished member(6864)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
05/14/2020 12:03PM
The phrases "single household" and "close to home" continue to nix the majority of planned overnight BWCAW trips, I'd say.
 
OgimaaBines
distinguished member (269)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 12:35PM
schweady: "The phrases "single household" and "close to home" continue to nix the majority of planned overnight BWCAW trips, I'd say."

I'm most interested in the "close to home" language. I tend to solo trip anyway, but we'll see what the forest service comes out with.
 
mutz
distinguished member(1197)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/14/2020 09:42PM
OgimaaBines: "schweady: "The phrases "single household" and "close to home" continue to nix the majority of planned overnight BWCAW trips, I'd say."


I'm most interested in the "close to home" language. I tend to solo trip anyway, but we'll see what the forest service comes out with. "



Close to home may be interpreted very differently by different people.
 
billconner
distinguished member(7240)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
05/15/2020 05:44AM
inspector13: "NebraskaDano: "So I will be able to go up to Ely with my camping buddies. Grab drinks at Zaverals and go eat a Bucky burger. But I will not be allowed into the BWCA. I hope there is some clarification because that doesn't make sense. "
You'll have to eat your Bucky burger sitting on the sidewalk and wash it down with a Coke since restaurants are take out only and bars are still closed.


"


Or drive to Superior. Wisconsin bars are open.
 
Atb
distinguished member (224)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/15/2020 07:47AM
Hanging on the ‘household’ bit from USFS, for my 6/6 permit. Maybe my paddle partner needs to pull a permit and we both solo? Somewhat concerned USFS decides they cannot enforce the household component and chooses to remain closed.
 
Fecker
 
05/15/2020 08:27AM
Anchor Bar - awesome burgers !!!!
 
thlipsis29
distinguished member(1210)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/15/2020 08:38AM
I believe the rule of thumb they're using for "close to home" is a distance that you can travel on one tank of gas so you don't have to stop and fill up somewhere. They used very ambiguous language to their advantage and disadvantage. If they really wanted to control how far people could travel, they could have used a specific range, such as no farther than 50 miles from the address on your driver's license. And while "household" might be a little more specific, it still leaves a LOT of wiggle room. I think the USFS is going to have its hands full enough with other issues that unless you're guilty of egregious violations, that can't enforce language that is ambiguous. Then again, they might tell us to go argue that before a judge :^)
 
thlipsis29
distinguished member(1210)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/15/2020 08:56AM
I posted this in another thread on what Governor Walz said, but it seems appropriate to post here as well


If the language that OMGitsKa posted is the exact language from the latest executive order, it describes the kind of camp site that will be open: Dispersed and remote camping sites for single household use.

It is important to note that it does not actually define what is meant by household. So as I read it, campers are not limited to being members of the same household.
 
05/15/2020 05:40PM
Atb: "Hanging on the ‘household’ bit from USFS, for my 6/6 permit. Maybe my paddle partner needs to pull a permit and we both solo? Somewhat concerned USFS decides they cannot enforce the household component and chooses to remain closed."

I tried to do that yesterday, but all the Moose permits for 6/6 were taken.
 
schweady
distinguished member(6864)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
05/16/2020 09:25AM
thlipsis29: "I posted this in another thread on what Governor Walz said, but it seems appropriate to post here as well



If the language that OMGitsKa posted is the exact language from the latest executive order, it describes the kind of camp site that will be open: Dispersed and remote camping sites for single household use.

It is important to note that it does not actually define what is meant by household. So as I read it, campers are not limited to being members of the same household."

Please explain how you can interpret "Dispersed and remote camping sites for single household use" as meaning "not limited to being members of the same household." ??
 
burgydancer
distinguished member (107)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/16/2020 12:19PM
If it helps:

Merriam-Webster:
Definition of household (Entry 1 of 2)
: those who dwell under the same roof and compose a family
also : a social unit composed of those living together in the same dwelling

So, I personally would interpret this to mean that a "household" is those who you normally live with, under the same roof. It does not always refer to related by marriage, adoption or genetic family members. It does not seem to refer to meeting friends at a campsite and saying since you are dwelling there you now form a "household".

 
nooneuno
distinguished member(523)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/16/2020 06:00PM
Apparently the four of us who do not live under the same roof can all ride up together for five hours in the cab of my pick up, we can then sleep the first night at the Adventure Inn ,all in the same room in two queen beds, but we cannot under any circumstances stay overnight at the same campsite, makes perfect sense I am so glad the politicians are there to take care of us.

It's about as useless as the one tank rule, apparently no one told the governor that there is "new" technology that allows someone to pay at the pump with a credit card and never enter a gas station, but I digress......
 
billconner
distinguished member(7240)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
05/16/2020 07:00PM
I think Adam had it. The campsites are for single household use. The campsite is not for multiple different groups. Nowhere does it say all oeople in the campsite have to be from same household or family. At least thsts how i see it now.
 
GraniteCliffs
distinguished member(1809)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/16/2020 07:23PM
I must be more than a little dense. Why are folks so invested in what the Walz order says about camping? It does not affect the BW, at least in my mind. The state does it's thing, governing things like State Parks. And the feds do their thing setting up rules for the BW. State Parks have shared facilities, like bathrooms, and are nothing like the BW so why would the rules be the same? Seems like apples to oranges to me. Unless, of course, I am missing something.
The stay close to home language "encourages" but does not mandate. Again, two different things. One is enforceable and one is not.
Perhaps I am way off but it seems that way to me. On the other hand I am not the brightest bulb on the planet.............
 
GraniteCliffs
distinguished member(1809)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/16/2020 07:34PM
One more thought: Since the BW is open and there is no mention of amending the normal BW rules is there any issue at all? Or business as usual, except how to pick up your permit?
 
nooneuno
distinguished member(523)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/16/2020 07:42PM
GraniteCliffs: "I must be more than a little dense. Why are folks so invested in what the Walz order says about camping? It does not affect the BW, at least in my mind. The state does it's thing, governing things like State Parks. And the feds do their thing setting up rules for the BW. State Parks have shared facilities, like bathrooms, and are nothing like the BW so why would the rules be the same? Seems like apples to oranges to me. Unless, of course, I am missing something.
The stay close to home language "encourages" but does not mandate. Again, two different things. One is enforceable and one is not.
Perhaps I am way off but it seems that way to me. On the other hand I am not the brightest bulb on the planet.............
"


What you are perhaps missing is the fact that the Forest Service has stated that it's rules will be subservient to the wishes of the Governor in regards to covid 19. Suzanne Hirsch, a spokeswoman for the Superior National Forest, said forest officials will closely follow the state’s stay-at-home order
 
GraniteCliffs
distinguished member(1809)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/16/2020 07:54PM
I appreciate the perspective but I still don't see a direct connection. As of now there is nothing different in writing from the USFS and I have to believe there will be a recognition that rules for State Parks are one thing and camping in the BW is another, which is why the rules are totally different today.
So far all the USFS says is they "encourage" people to follow local and state guidelines. I would be very surprised if they announced reservations were open, granted permits and then after the fact mandated changes. Stranger things have happened but they have had plenty of time to think this one through and have already issued an official statement.
My expectation: The USFS will now remain silent on rule changes and stick with the "encourage" language that is already in place. No change.
 
nooneuno
distinguished member(523)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/16/2020 08:13PM
Basically some folks want to obey the letter of the law regarding the rules and some want to follow the intentions of the rules and are therefore seeking clarification to what is a gray area. As for me my confirmation email is already printed and I hate to waste paper....
 
schweady
distinguished member(6864)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
05/16/2020 08:21PM
nooneuno: "Apparently the four of us who do not live under the same roof can all ride up together for five hours in the cab of my pick up, we can then sleep the first night at the Adventure Inn ,all in the same room in two queen beds..."
Of course, you all CAN. I think that the order is trying to help you consider whether you SHOULD. To me, the die is cast once you all get into the pickup together. You, as a group, have, at that point, mutually decided that this trip is worth the risk of possibly infecting one another. Then, I'd say "Go, and have a good time. Just agree as a group that none of you will come in contact any of the good folks serving you along the way."
 
x2jmorris
distinguished member(1208)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/17/2020 09:12AM
schweady: "nooneuno: "Apparently the four of us who do not live under the same roof can all ride up together for five hours in the cab of my pick up, we can then sleep the first night at the Adventure Inn ,all in the same room in two queen beds..."
Of course, you all CAN. I think that the order is trying to help you consider whether you SHOULD. To me, the die is cast once you all get into the pickup together. You, as a group, have, at that point, mutually decided that this trip is worth the risk of possibly infecting one another. Then, I'd say "Go, and have a good time. Just agree as a group that none of you will come in contact any of the good folks serving you along the way."
"


Pretty much Schweady
 
nooneuno
distinguished member(523)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/17/2020 01:54PM
schweady: "nooneuno: "Apparently the four of us who do not live under the same roof can all ride up together for five hours in the cab of my pick up, we can then sleep the first night at the Adventure Inn ,all in the same room in two queen beds..."
Of course, you all CAN. I think that the order is trying to help you consider whether you SHOULD. To me, the die is cast once you all get into the pickup together. You, as a group, have, at that point, mutually decided that this trip is worth the risk of possibly infecting one another. Then, I'd say "Go, and have a good time. Just agree as a group that none of you will come in contact any of the good folks serving you along the way."
"


Fair enough except there are many good folks along the way and in Ely proper that are pleading for me to stop along the way, and open my wallet when I do so, not everyone is afraid of this virus to the same level nor is everyone in the same danger from it, the ones that are should protect themselves by staying home and following their best protocols.
 
NotLight
distinguished member(1228)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/17/2020 03:30PM
nooneuno: "schweady: "nooneuno: "Apparently the four of us who do not live under the same roof can all ride up together for five hours in the cab of my pick up, we can then sleep the first night at the Adventure Inn ,all in the same room in two queen beds..."
Of course, you all CAN. I think that the order is trying to help you consider whether you SHOULD. To me, the die is cast once you all get into the pickup together. You, as a group, have, at that point, mutually decided that this trip is worth the risk of possibly infecting one another. Then, I'd say "Go, and have a good time. Just agree as a group that none of you will come in contact any of the good folks serving you along the way."
"


Fair enough except there are many good folks along the way and in Ely proper that are pleading for me to stop along the way, and open my wallet when I do so, not everyone is afraid of this virus to the same level nor is everyone in the same danger from it, the ones that are should protect themselves by staying home and following their best protocols."


In your situation, I’d skip the BWCA, drive somewhere a bit closer with two to a car instead of four, in a state where your group of 4 was legal. I’m not saying that based on “right” or “wrong”, or whether you think you are vulnerable or not. Rather, as a way to avoid all the crazy stuff out there right now and still have a good time.

There’s not a lot of common sense out there. Trying to figure out the right thing to do based on what others are doing or what the government suggests is too frustrating. Make your own right decision.

(I’m staying home until late fall.)



 
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