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MN_Lindsey
distinguished member(2115)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/01/2020 07:38PM
I know on 5/18 when permits first opened, it was limited to those of the same household. Is that still the case, or can multi-families trip together now?
 
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schweady
distinguished member(6916)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/01/2020 09:15PM
Info comes from a couple of outfitters that multiple-household groups make up the majority of cancellations, but the only hard-and-fast rule against it is that of common sense.
 
nofish
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06/02/2020 01:08PM
Im going in July with a mixed group from 2 households. It will be me and my daughter and my friend and his son. I suppose if anyone asks we'll just say we're married.
 
fishEH
member (37)member
 
06/02/2020 06:14PM
I didn't actually realize that was a thing. After our Quetico trip was cancelled, my buddy grabbed a BWCA permit for us next Saturday.
 
06/04/2020 07:17AM
Hmmm. I have a "mixed household" trip planned 10 days out (with a family we spend time with weekly already anyway, so not sure it matters). When checking reservation options I asked a couple of different outfitters their understanding on the "household" terminology and they both said they did not know if everyone had to be from the same household in a group. The wording of the responses I got made me surmise is there is a bit of a "don't ask, don't tell" approach since it's not entirely clear to everyone?

 
fishEH
member (37)member
 
06/04/2020 07:50AM
djwillco: "Hmmm. I have a "mixed household" trip planned 10 days out (with a family we spend time with weekly already anyway, so not sure it matters). When checking reservation options I asked a couple of different outfitters their understanding on the "household" terminology and they both said they did not know if everyone had to be from the same household in a group. The wording of the responses I got made me surmise is there is a bit of a "don't ask, don't tell" approach since it's not entirely clear to everyone?
"

I think it comes down to enforcement. Who is responsible for enforcing it, and of that group, who will actually do it? I doubt whatever agency that is has the resources to actively enforce such a directive.
 
thistlekicker
distinguished member (360)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/04/2020 08:31AM
My understanding is that the "single household" camping guidance comes from the State of MN and isn't a SNF regulation for BWCA use.

For example:
MN DNR: Covid19 guidance for the public

Guidelines for visitors:
Recreate with your household. Restrict use of your individual campsite/campfire to only those in your immediate household.

Do with that what you will. Guidelines are guidelines. Personal responsibility and critical thinking are our best tools for minimizing spread of this disease. Following guidelines (or not) doesn't always mean you are doing the "right" thing.
 
Porkeater
senior member (78)senior membersenior member
 
06/04/2020 09:36AM
I suppose it comes down to whether it is a Forest Service ranger or a state warden that one encounters. I have seen DNR officers at entry points, primarily checking for canoe registrations. Have not encountered one on the water, although I'm sure they are out there from time to time.
 
nofish
distinguished member(2704)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/04/2020 11:04AM
There is no way the can enforce it. I'm sure they knew that when they included it and really included it more as a guideline and recommendation. Sort of like the 6 ft social distance rule, you can't enforce it and its there more as a guideline. At the end of the day common sense needs to take precedence. Before making my plans with people from another household we considered the risk level. We know who we are going with and what their risk level is. We know they are doing their part to be responsible as are we so while there is risk we felt it an acceptable risk. I've also made plans that once we get back we'll keep our distance from some vulnerable family members for 2 weeks just as an extra precaution.

At the end of the day just be smart. Consider your risk factors and the risk factors of those that you are traveling with. Do your part to minimize contact with people on your way up and back. And consider those vulnerable people around you and think about what extra precautions might be needed to protect them when you return in the event you do pick something up and don't know it.
 
thegildedgopher
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06/04/2020 03:30PM
This isn't a comment on whether you should or shouldn't do mixed-household trips. Personally I'm not ready for that myself, but others may feel differently and it's up to them to decide for themselves.

That said. My take: The original language from Walz's executive order was "Dispersed and remote camping sites for single household use." The people who craft these orders know what they're doing with words. To me this language is specifically designed to exclude "group camps" -- for example, the group campsite at Fenske lake. This is set away from the campground proper, so I can see some folks who would think this qualifies as a "remote" site -- but since it's specifically designed to be occupied by multiple groups at one time, it's excluded by their langauge. Other similar sites would be the big group sites on Kab and Rainy in Voyageurs National Park. (Although they have recently converted those massive group sites to single-family use for this summer. Once one party books, they're no longer available.)

The important distinction is that "singe family use" is modifying "campsites," NOT "camping." In my opinion if they wanted to limit groups to one household only they would've stated that clearly. Something like "Groups must consist of campers who permanently reside in the same household."
 
billconner
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06/04/2020 06:42PM
Gilded - I agree 100% but got shot down previously. Iirc Adam proposed this same interp. If you look at the wording of the other items on the list, this is almost only that qualries the use of an accommodation. Just try to find a legal definition if household.

Besides, the place is packed and I dont think there are but 6-8 rangers in so chance of getting caught and them carrying is maybe not quite 0.


 
thegildedgopher
distinguished member(657)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/04/2020 09:12PM
billconner: "Gilded - I agree 100% but got shot down previously. Iirc Adam proposed this same interp. If you look at the wording of the other items on the list, this is almost only that qualries the use of an accommodation. Just try to find a legal definition if household.


Besides, the place is packed and I dont think there are but 6-8 rangers in so chance of getting caught and them carrying is maybe not quite 0.



"


I previously saw it the other way. "Single household" seems pretty clear in isolation, but when you look at the way the language is actually crafted You and Adam are technically correct.

Entirely possible they wrote it this way to discourage mixed groups, but I agree it's entirely unenforceable.
 
paddlinjoe
distinguished member (382)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/05/2020 08:29AM
It was quite inspiring to see Governor Walz and many others in attendance at the packed Memorial for George Floyd paying their respects. But, that would also indicate to me that you can use your own discretion when determining the composition of your 10 person camping group.

https://www.startribune.com/memorial-for-george-floyd-looks-ahead-to-what-s-next/571016152/
 
Cricket67
member (38)member
 
06/18/2020 02:53PM
Any Updates? We have a Boy Scout trip planned for July 15th...for now assuming it is still a go?
 
Porkeater
senior member (78)senior membersenior member
 
06/19/2020 08:12AM
Cricket67: "Any Updates? We have a Boy Scout trip planned for July 15th...for now assuming it is still a go?"

Are you going through Northern Tier? Here is their current information:

http://www.ntier.org/Covid-19/

If not, you may want to also check with your DE, as the guidance from National says that the extent of meetings and outings permitted is up to local councils.

EDIT: I tried the "insert link" function multiple times without success.
 
adam
Moderator
 
06/19/2020 01:48PM
There is certainly no enforcement of this currently from an outfitting perspecitve. And I think the current Minnesota rule is 25 people gathering outdoors.
 
06/23/2020 10:09AM
I was just in via American Point to Ottertrack. There were/are multiple household groups going in and coming out. Monument portage was particularly congested with groups of folks. It was hard to maintain your distance on that portage. I just managed it as best I could :)
 
mutz
distinguished member(1211)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/23/2020 12:19PM
I was watching The news on tv last night and it didn’t appear that they were enforcing any 25 person group limit in Minneapolis so I’m thinking if you have a group of nine in the BWCA your probably good to go.
 
06/24/2020 12:22AM
Porkeater: "Cricket67: "Any Updates? We have a Boy Scout trip planned for July 15th...for now assuming it is still a go?"


Are you going through Northern Tier? Here is their current information:

http://www.ntier.org/Covid-19/

If not, you may want to also check with your DE, as the guidance from National says that the extent of meetings and outings permitted is up to local councils.

EDIT: I tried the "insert link" function multiple times without success."


My troop is taking 2 groups in on 7/26. We're mostly following Northern Tier's guidelines even though we're working with an outfitter in town. At this point, barring something unanticipated happening, I expect to be on the way up in a little over a month.
 
Cricket67
member (38)member
 
06/24/2020 02:18PM
Thanks for the input. We are going to Rockwood outfitters on Poplar lake. Based on everyone's input (thank you!) I think I am giving everything a green light so we can proceed with planning and preparation.
 
Garny
member (13)member
 
07/01/2020 09:04AM
We just got back from Rockwood/Poplar Lake. No issues for our group. They do ask that everyone wear a mask while on their grounds. Just an FYI.
 
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