My two paddling partners and I are training for a long distance canoe race in a MN3 in August. I have some questions regarding paddling in a group of three.

These questions pertain to speed, efficiency, energy expenditure.....

1. When attending to quick personal needs while on the water such as drinking, eating, resting, potty breaks...is it better to break briefly individually while two people continue to paddle, or try to coordinate needs so all three break at the same time? It seems a fair amount of time one of the three is attending to personal needs, leaving only two paddlers with what seems like somewhat of a lag and a little increase strain on the two who are paddling. I wonder if it would be better for all of us to break at one time so there are constantly three people paddling. Or does it matter?

2. While all three are paddling, is it more effective to try to coordinate the strokes so all three paddles are in the water at the same time? Or can all paddlers paddle at their own cadence without regard to speed, efficiency and energy expenditure.

I would love to know your answers. Id also like to hear from anyone who has done long distance canoe racing with any tips, tricks or input.

Thanks!

I'm not sure on your question #1.

On #2, all paddlers should absolutely be in cadence. This prevents the boat from rocking side to side since everyone is reaching overboard simultaneously. It also keeps paddle strokes consistent with respect to the speed of the boat through the stroke. When I've tripped in a 3 man, I've found it most efficient for the two ahead paddlers to paddle on the same side, and the stern paddler to paddle on the opposite side. Having the two ahead paddlers on the same side seems to counteract the additional leverage that the stern paddler has and reduce the need to correct via J-stroke or switch if that's your thing.

The way I've usually managed is that the bow paddler sets cadence and when to change, unless a change is requested by an aft paddler.

ayudell: "I'm not sure on your question #1
The way I've usually managed is that the bow paddler sets cadence and when to change, unless a change is requested by an aft paddler."

Hut!

Having done both the Kruger and Voyageur Challenge each two times (Kruger is from I-Falls or Rainer to Superior and Voyageur is from Crane Lake to Superior) and one each in a MN 3 I ( last year in 92+ hours from Rainer) would say keep your momentum as much as possible to question #1. I'am not in total agreement but some think that the middle person in MN 3 adds little to your overall speed and some even go so far as having the middle person a duffer or reading a map and switching off. But you do go faster with 3 people paddling- I guess it depends on how long a race your talking about.
The back person should HUT- but being a stern paddler on all of these Challenges I just switch when the bow person(s) do as I hate telling others what to do unless their stroke is noticeably "lily dipping" - BeaV is big on "HUT" and he is correct as you really don't realize your losing power but after about 20 strokes you really are. agree with ayudell in cadence and order of paddling unless of course things need to be switched up due to cross winds etc.
I'am sure if BeaV reads this or any other of his crew they will chime in as well.

Are you doing the MR 340?

Yes, MR 340 (340 miles on the Missouri River in under 85 hours) unless it is cancelled this year. As I see it, the race is a combination of strategy, skill and stamina.

Thank the people who responded. I appreciate these and welcome more responses.

I have wondered how much the middle paddler is contributing. It was supposed to be just me and my long time paddler partner. A third person (non-experienced paddler) decided she wanted to join us. I am established bow and paddle partner is always stern so she got the middle position, and probably best for her.

Voyageur, are you also doing the MR 340 this year?

What's the thinking behind the middle paddler not providing much benefit? Hull speed on an MN3 should be around 6mph, so I can't imagine that you would be pushing up against that. The way I see it is another 50% power you are putting down. I've only done one trip in a three man though, but it seemed quite a bit quicker when the middle gal was paddling vs. dead weight, or at least less work.

No Giddyup not me. I had thought about it a few years ago, but the complexities of having a shore crew discouraged me. Hopefully BeaV will chime in here on the Mn.III. IF! I recall he mentioned the middle paddler having adverse effects. (pain). Probably caused by paddling long hours and reaching more than the bow and stern paddlers. I THINK he said they alternated in the middle position to help alleviate it. We did the length of the Muskegon river with my dad years ago in our 1936 20 foot Old Town guide. We found it far easier if all 3 paddled. Good luck in your race. If you're like me, it's all about the personal satisfaction of just finishing.

Thanks, Voyageur. Yes, it will be mostly about finishing but it will be fun to see where we place in our division. We figure even if we are last, we finished which makes us winners. I’m curious to find answers to these questions so we can finish the best we can.

Voyager: "No Giddyup not me. I had thought about it a few years ago, but the complexities of having a shore crew discouraged me. Hopefully BeaV will chime in here on the Mn.III. IF! I recall he mentioned the middle paddler having adverse effects. (pain). Probably caused by paddling long hours and reaching more than the bow and stern paddlers. I THINK he said they alternated in the middle position to help alleviate it. We did the length of the Muskegon river with my dad years ago in our 1936 20 foot Old Town guide. We found it far easier if all 3 paddled. Good luck in your race. If you're like me, it's all about the personal satisfaction of just finishing.
"

Correct. I forgot those "adverse effects" as it's been since 2015 since I sat in the middle and I was damn glad to switch it up and get in the front. BeaV was stern and when you paddle with BeaV- he's 99.9% taking the stern so Meat Puppet and I switched it up. Meat Puppet ended up tweaking his elbow pretty bad from sitting in the middle. Last year- JImmy Justice and Deke switched it up and I was in the stern. It's miserable sitting in the middle, not only paddling , but just the seat itself is not friendly to long "sits" (constant readjustments of your backside by putting both hands on the gunwale happens A LOT) --

Like I said- I don't buy it but some do have the middle paddler as a duffer (or sleeping) and rotate.

1) To make the most distance...the boat has to be moving. If the boat's not moving forward, you're falling behind. Period. And if you're traveling with the current on a river, you really get penalized if you're not moving and keeping the bow pointed downstream. So...yes it is best to allow one person on your team to drink, eat, or other personal needs at one time while the other two keep paddling. Your speed will be slightly reduced while one is on break. It is not harder for the remaining two but they will feel that speed is reduced in their paddle blades and when the third person gets back in the water, it will just "feel" good again. Breaks need to be kept to a minimum and quick.

2) As others stated, yes you want to paddle all in unison. The bow person sets this rhythm and the other 2 match. But the captain of the ship is the stern paddler- that person can see what's happening, has responsibility to keep the ship going in a straight line, and usually is the navigator. Depending on your trim, the power of each individual paddler, and the direction and strength of the wind....this will determine which side each paddler needs to be on. And the captain of the boat will make adjustments as things change. The middle person and the stern person are so close that their paddles will hit if they're on the same side and not in rhythm.

Tips- Are you planning on doing some training in a MN 3 beforehand? I would recommend it...

Are you planning on paddling straight through? One person sleep in the boat while the other 2 paddle. If so, everyone will need to be able to swap positions and know and perform their roles. As Whitewolf said, you may need to give that middle seat person a break anyhow, if they development discomfort from being in that position too long.

My reply is pretty general...ask if you have more specific questions, but you really can find the answers ahead of time if you get in a MN 3 and bring a gps and a satellite tracking device so you can record what happens while you train.

I have never done the MR 340 so I don't know first hand about it. But I've always considered it a put your head down and just keep going start to finish grueling type race, if you want to compete. So, yes, like you said skill and stamina are important to finish. Probably those who master that and have a good strategy are the top teams, but strategy is of the least importance for finishing.

Thank, BeaV and WhiteWolf, that advice is very helpful.

Yes, our team of three bought a used MN3 at the beginning of the paddling season this year. We go out together once a week and this has been very helpful. I think our chances of finishing the race would have been much less without practicing together and in the boat we’re going to use.

We have had a chance to get to know each other’s paddling style and personality. We are working on problem solving issues with seating, nutrition and hydration, and equipment that come up during our weekly paddles. What works what doesn’t.

We just finished our longest practice day yet, we got in this morning from a 100 mile river trip that took us 19 hours to complete, less than an hour of non-paddling time and only of the boat only once during the 19 hours. (That was the hardest part for me) It was the longest trip at one time as, well as the first night paddling experience for all three of us. It was a very helpful training day. I think by the end of the trip at 0200 this morning we had all identified hydration is a big area to work on.

BeaV, as far as paddling straight through, we are hoping to get ahead of the clock enough to have at least 2 four hour sleep times. We feel like we need this to be safe and our goal is to finish strong and complete the race, not necessarily to win.

Thanks for the advice and ideas, if you think of anything else please let me know.

That's great that you are training together and that you have the MN 3. From your OP, I had the vision that you hadn't yet.

Since you'll be sleeping a little....don't be surprised when you stop to sleep that you lay down and then you can't fall asleep. It happens to many after a long stent with the paddle. Your body is all rev'd up and working in high gear for a long time, then you lay down and well....you can't. For me it seems this is worse when it's hot out and I'm more dehydrated.

Hydration- I don't need much water and I am good at trying to stay a little dehydrated on purpose so I don't waste time drinking and I don't waste time peeing. But if the forecast is for hot weather, I've learned the hard way to try to stay ahead of dehydration. Your body can only absorb water so fast from your stomach. You can lose water faster than you can replace it. When this happens, the only option is to go to shore and wait for your body to catch up. The alternative is overheating and dangerous.

Congrat's on your 100-mile paddle! Training motivation can be harder than when it's for real.

Thanks, BeaV. You’re such an accomplished long distance paddler so it is helpful and encouraging to hear your responses.

One thing you will need to have a plan for is at what point do you stop to rest?

Your first day is the only day where you will be fresh and not be hurting. Some say you should take advantage of that and push for a real long first day before stopping for sleep.

This is true but...you can also push too hard and then have a hard time recuperating back to feeling good. I have done that and regretted it. What that point is....depends on lots of things and that's kind of part of the strategy of a long distance event.

We have discussed this and we’re thinking not until after the first 24 hours and when we are certain we can all fall asleep as soon as we lie down so as not to waste our down time.

You do make a good point that needs to be considered, however. We will discuss the point you have made. It’s hard to know for sure until we’re in the midst of it but we know that we also to be alert enough to be safe on the water.

You mention pain....I was anticipating fatigue more than pain and it was the other way around. After our 100 mile, 19 hour paddle this week I was doing ok in the fatigue area but lower body/hip (not upper body) pain from sitting was pretty bad despite Advil and repositioning. I will need to have a better plan for this. Suggestions welcome.

giddyup: "
You mention pain....I was anticipating fatigue more than pain and it was the other way around. After our 100 mile, 19 hour paddle this week I was doing ok in the fatigue area but lower body/hip (not upper body) pain from sitting was pretty bad despite Advil and repositioning. I will need to have a better plan for this. Suggestions welcome. "

You can expect both- fatigue and pain. For me, pain usually comes from blisters on hands and fingers. Bring a needle with and pop the blisters before the skin tears off...this is way better than having raw sores. Moleskin and adhesive tape. Drain as necessary.

Lower back pain- for me this is mostly from poor posture. When I feel this, I make an effort to sit up straighter and by doing this, the pain normally subsides within 15-20 minutes.

Hip pain- 2 possibilities. No foot brace or you have a foot brace and you're pushing too hard against them. I guess there is a 3rd possibility...your body just doesn't like sitting in the canoe that long. Sometimes I will kneel to give hips and lower back a break.

Thanks :))