BWCA Dagger Kevlar ID? Boundary Waters Gear Forum
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tnvol
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07/13/2020 07:16AM  

Just picked up this mystery canoe and hoping someone might have some ideas about it. It has no Hull ID and no indication of there ever being any markings on it. The end caps are dagger, and the seats and yoke match other dagger boats I’ve seen. I think it is a skin coat Dagger Reflection 16, specs match on length and width. Problem is as far as I know Dagger never made a skin coat Kevlar boat. Do I have some unknown prototype on my hands?
 
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07/13/2020 07:32AM  
Nice boat. I would love to have that in my stable. It is very possible that it was a trial boat and ended up leaving the shop with an employee and later sold. Dagger did make kevlar models of the whole Reflection series so a boat with no gelcoat is not out of the question. Even a custom boat the went through a dealer would have a HIN.

I can't wait to hear what it weighs. The Reflection 16 is wonderful touring canoe. Fast, seaworthy in rough conditions. Well designed for sure. I have a Dagger Sojourn, the solo in the Reflection style and I would love to have a kevlar version, but I think they only made the Sojourn in R-Light.

If you ever want to sell this boat at some time in the future I'd be interested!
 
tnvol
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07/13/2020 11:31AM  
According to my bathroom scale it's 55lbs, considerably heavier than I would have thought a 16 ft kevlar to be.
I think this is an unfinished factory blemish taken home by an employee, definitely no hin,and it appears "unfinished" on the interior. You can see ripples in the epoxy throughout the interior and see the imprint of the release fabric. In my experience very unlike dagger as all of their boats I have seen have been really well finished. I'm hoping some careful standing and trimming of the sloppy epoxy might cut down on the weight some, but that's probably wishful thinking. Just paddled it and it is extremely stable and much faster than I would have thought.

I would still love to track down someone who could tell me the story on this boat. As an aside, if I have to register this boat at some point I'm not sure what I'll do without a hull I'd.
 
kona
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07/19/2020 07:22AM  
Really cool to see this. Thanks for posting. Please post more pics!

I’m a big fan of dagger canoes and am always on the lookout. I’ve only seen one of the composite R16s come up in the last five years, down in Florida. It had beautiful Navy blue gelcoat, wood trim, and that unmistakable golden hue of a well aged Kevlar inner. I could not figure out how to get the boat from Florida to Minnesota, despite trying.

The archived dagger catalogs only show the composite boats for catalog year 2000 (linked below). It seems they were not doing composites long before the company was sold. The glass r16 with gelcoat and wood lists at 59 lbs. the Kevlar r16 lists at 49lbs with gelcoat and wood.

Since gelcoat would have been applied to the mold first, even for an unknown blem, I’m guessing you have an experimental, pre production skin coat hull, possibly in s-glass and not Kevlar. The alu rails and plastic end caps match the 1990s dagger style common to sojourns and reflections of the mid-late 90s. By 1999 dagger switched production boats to the “dogbone” shaped seat drops/hanger, though they probably had old stock around for the previous style, which yours has.

Very cool boat

Curious about your thoughts, and to see more pics if you care to share.

https://www.dagger.com/us/sites/default/files/documents/2000.pdf
 
07/20/2020 12:00PM  
I agree with Kona that this hull is constructed with S-glass. It is obviously not kevlar and E-glass would be more transparent. S-glass wets out translucent. S-glass is certainly tough stuff. That is a real cool boat. With the flotation in the ends and the thick foam core bottom it would have 6 inches out of the water if swamped.

It is unfortunate that Dagger didn't gain more ground in the composite world before it changed hands. The designs are great in touring canoes and kayaks.
 
tnvol
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08/29/2020 02:43PM  

I had hoped to have something more to add than secondhand stories, but according to a few folks that worked with Dagger it’s possible this may not only be a prototype but possibly even the first composite boat they ever made. It is indeed S glass, and you can see from image attached the “S” on the stern foam core, there is a “B” on the bow as well.

Story I got is they experimented with different ways of laying the fabric in and other manufacturing odds and ends with S glass hulls once they had a form for the reflection. They didn’t bother with Gelcoat or much of anything else. Reason I say this may be first is that early on in the process they fully outfitted one of the hulls to paddle around. I cannot find anyone with enough first hand experience to confirm this is that boat.

I feel confident this is a prototype in any case, no Hull ID and it doesn’t make sense for someone to special order a skin coat s glass Hull, considering at the time they offered these they had Kevlar available. Also small bits of visible marks, the “s” and “b”, poor finish etc makes me think this was never meant to leave factory.

Considering the boat hasn’t had much use, and a dagger aficionado may appreciate it more than me I probably will put it up for sale at some point,
 
kona
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08/29/2020 07:17PM  
All makes sense and seems reasonable. Thanks for
The extra pic. Cool piece of history.
 
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