On a recent trip I came across this pile of about 20 beer cans. I noticed right away that the cans had straight edges, seamed bottoms, and pull tab tops meaning they were quite old. It made me wonder how how old something has to be to be considered an artifact?

Just a few minute working the Google-machine last night and I learned these cans were almost certainly produced between 1965 - 1975, and given the shape of the pull tab I think likely closer to 1965. That makes them between 45-55 years old.

I had been picking up quite a bit of other peoples trash on this trip, including a modern burned beer can and foil in the fire pit, leech container, candy bar wrappers, etc. I had a mid-sized trash bag with me in case of unsightly piles, but considering how old these cans were, I made the decision to leave them as artifacts. Still debating that in my head.

So what do you think? Artifact or trash?

Looks like trash to me.

However technically I believe the cut off is 50 years for something to be considered historic. We had numerous old cabins and remenants of mining on our public lands in Alaska that were nearing 50 years old. We would be in a mad scramble to get them removed before they turned 50 YO.

This is truly a perplexing question. If those beer cans were from the logging era, they would be historic (I know not possible).

I think they are trash for another 20 years, they they will be historic. I have found afew old beer cans in the BWCA that were old and nice enough to be displayed. I also found a bug spray can once that said “Now with DDT”. Wish I kept it.

As an avid beer can collector I can tell you those cans will never be worth more than the price of tin.

Tom

Those are trash. Now if they were cone tops, that's another story. IMHO

Great question, Jay. The Chilkoot Trail is littered with the miners' jetsam and their trash is treasured, even as it rusts and rots, for a tells the story.

Speaking of miners and stories, I once spent the night at an abandoned mining camp north of Chapleau, Ontario. There were cars from the fifties left there and a bank's vault, standing strong because it was built strong. Otherwise, it was mostly piles of rotting rubble, but I loved it all. If I could choose between a pristine campsite and those cars and rubble for that one night, I'd choose the latter because it told a story, which was that people once lived there and worked there and yes, even banked there.

P.S. - Those cans are trash. Their story, i.e. of guys getting drunk, isn't one worth telling.

LindenTree: "....However technically I believe the cut off is 50 years for something to be considered historic. ...."

I’m curious, Lindentree, was 50 years a rule of thumb or a rule for either your agency or Alaska? Any idea if the same applies to USFS? These cans are +/- 5 years from that criteria, and most like they are 55 of so.

I'll try to find something, but I believe it is a rule for all federal agencies.
Don't know how they removed some of the cabins in the BWCA, but I'm guessing if they were over 50 years old it required lots of paperwork.

Found this but can't copy the link since it is a download.
Looks like 50 years.

36 CFR 261.9 – (Theft of Govt. Property)
All historic (generally 50 years or older) and archaeological (defined in ARPA as more than
100 years old) artifacts on federal lands belong to the U. S. Government.

AmarilloJim: "Those are trash. Now if they were cone tops, that's another story. IMHO"

+1

Interesting question.

In a certain sense, I guess it really depends on your personal perspective. I mean all the 'stuff' (and there is a lot of it out there) was considered garbage at one time. Please understand, I'm not trying to imply people purposely leave trash behind but, obviously people have.

Cool photo. No idea what to call it... artifact or trash... but cool photo. I would, however, probably hump it out or smash and bury.

Jaywalker: "

LindenTree: "....However technically I believe the cut off is 50 years for something to be considered historic. ...."

I’m curious, Lindentree, was 50 years a rule of thumb or a rule for either your agency or Alaska? Any idea if the same applies to USFS? These cans are +/- 5 years from that criteria, and most like they are 55 of so. "

Jaywalker, what you and alot of us have found in the Superior NF is what I jokingly called "Historical Garbage"

I’ve wondered the same.

Trash is trash. Prehistoric or not.

LindenTree: "

Jaywalker: "

LindenTree: "....However technically I believe the cut off is 50 years for something to be considered historic. ...."

I’m curious, Lindentree, was 50 years a rule of thumb or a rule for either your agency or Alaska? Any idea if the same applies to USFS? These cans are +/- 5 years from that criteria, and most like they are 55 of so. "

Jaywalker, what you and alot of us have found in the Superior NF is what I jokingly called "Historical Garbage" "

Ha, yes. Anthropologist routinely assemble understanding of ancient cultures with assistance of their garbage!

HowardSprague: "I’ve wondered the same.
"

Cans appear to be of the same vintage as my original photo.

LindenTree: "

Jaywalker: "

LindenTree: "....However technically I believe the cut off is 50 years for something to be considered historic. ...."

I’m curious, Lindentree, was 50 years a rule of thumb or a rule for either your agency or Alaska? Any idea if the same applies to USFS? These cans are +/- 5 years from that criteria, and most like they are 55 of so. "

Jaywalker, what you and alot of us have found in the Superior NF is what I jokingly called "Historical Garbage" "

Pre 1970's for many it was pack it in and deposit it there. Quite common to find cans at some sites at one time.

I was born in '54. If you find me out there - you're gonna leave me there??!

On a 4 person trip to Quetico we all brought swim goggles and snorkels. We camped on the first big island in North Bay of Basswood for a few nights and swan the shoreline. We found maybe 7 or 8 old glass jars of different sizes and shapes. It's hard to tell how old these were but a few had detailed edges cut.

I don't know why anyone would pack glass containers so I'm thinking they went pretty far back. Apparently people just chucked stuff in the lake when they were done with it.

Definitely trash, pack it out.

TomT: "On a 4 person trip to Quetico we all brought swim goggles and snorkels. We camped on the first big island in North Bay of Basswood for a few nights and swan the shoreline. We found maybe 7 or 8 old glass jars of different sizes and shapes. It's hard to tell how old these were but a few had detailed edges cut.


I don't know why anyone would pack glass containers so I'm thinking they went pretty far back. Apparently people just chucked stuff in the lake when they were done with it."

It was a common practice before the BWCA was declared a wilderness to either burn or bury your trash. You would cut out both end of a tin can, flatten the can, and then place it in the fire overnight. The next day, you would dump the can in the middle of the lake. There were very few regulations and with around 200 inholdings, no one got excited about a few trees being cut or trash piles being left by a careless few.

When I plant trees in my Maine woods, I sometimes encounter old jars with thick glass and strange shapes. At first, I treat them like an artifact, displaying them on a window shelf, but then I tire of their cluttering and treat them like trash, tossing them.

Linden is correct; to officially be considered historic, artifacts need to be 50 years old.

KarlBAndersen1: "I was born in '54. If you find me out there - you're gonna leave me there??!"

Yep. Same here, I hope.

Frenchy19: "Linden is correct; to officially be considered historic, artifacts need to be 50 years old. "

I’m going to guess that you mean that to be considered an historic artifact, the object needs to have been left in place 50 years. That would clear up any uncertainty about Karl’s question!

missmolly: "P.S. - Those cans are trash. Their story, i.e. of guys getting drunk, isn't one worth telling. "

It might be just that, but just maybe there is more to it. Perhaps it’s two guys portaging in the shiny new aluminum canoe for a few days, wearing wool pants and canvas jackets, having a couple beers while frying up their walleye and spuds in a cast iron pan as the Coleman lantern hissed, then crawling into their pup tent with their flannel sleeping bags on the ground. Then, unfortunately by today’s standards, they dumped their cans the way their fathers taught them and went home. All this before the wilderness was a Wilderness. There could be a story there.

Jaywalker: "

missmolly: "P.S. - Those cans are trash. Their story, i.e. of guys getting drunk, isn't one worth telling. "

It might be just that, but just maybe there is more to it. Perhaps it’s two guys portaging in the shiny new aluminum canoe for a few days, wearing wool pants and canvas jackets, having a couple beers while frying up their walleye and spuds in a cast iron pan as the Coleman lantern hissed, then crawling into their pup tent with their flannel sleeping bags on the ground. Then, unfortunately by today’s standards, they dumped their cans the way their fathers taught them and went home. All this before the wilderness was a Wilderness. There could be a story there. "

That's some sweet and vivid storytelling, so I concede. ;-)

Beer was first canned circa 1933. The first cans were NOT cone tops and are considerably more valuable than a lot of cone tops. Cones were introduced because cans weren't taking off they the manufacturers had hoped, so they figured that introducing a "bottle-shaped" can that could be opened with the same kind of opener would help ease folks into it. I guess it worked: cone tops died in the early 60's (I think).

The Archaeological Resource Protection Act says anything over 100 years old on federal land is an "artifact" and may not be collected. Though if memory serves, there is an exception for arrowheads lying in the surface (digging for them is a no-no). The forest service's own policy is 50 years.

If someone did find a native American artifact on the surface in the park and took it out, where would be a good place (museum etc.) to bring it to?

In 2006 on Insula Lake I found in shallow water during a drought what I believe is a knife or spear tip. It definitely is a manipulated stone that's about 4 inches long. Is there someplace in the Ely area that would want to display this?

Contact the Minnesota Historical Society...

missmolly: "When I plant trees in my Maine woods, I sometimes encounter old jars with thick glass and strange shapes. At first, I treat them like an artifact, displaying them on a window shelf, but then I tire of their cluttering and treat them like trash, tossing them. "

I have a couple of little ones on the kitchen window sill at our lake cottage. Spartan1 unearthed them when we were doing some cleaning up of the lakeside hill, probably 12+ years ago. Probably medicine bottles, one is white like milk glass and the other one is dark brown. I am tiring of them and I suspect they will go the way of the trash can eventually. So I can really relate to your post. :-)

Spartan2: "

missmolly: "When I plant trees in my Maine woods, I sometimes encounter old jars with thick glass and strange shapes. At first, I treat them like an artifact, displaying them on a window shelf, but then I tire of their cluttering and treat them like trash, tossing them. "

I have a couple of little ones on the kitchen window sill at our lake cottage. Spartan1 unearthed them when we were doing some cleaning up of the lakeside hill, probably 12+ years ago. Probably medicine bottles, one is white like milk glass and the other one is dark brown. I am tiring of them and I suspect they will go the way of the trash can eventually. So I can really relate to your post. :-)

"

Ha!

P.S. - I can relate to your cottage; It's so cute!

It is sort of cute. We put a new Spartan Green metal roof on it this summer and it looks a lot cuter now. :-) Cuter? More cute? Whatever.

Those cans are trash. You can’t even tell what type of beer it is. I still have 300 beer cans or so. Why I have no idea. I do have some nice ones tho. Kinda funny story. My dad was a salesman so when he traveled he would bring me home cans for my collection from around the country. I can just see him now in a hotel room in Austin putting down a sixer of Lone Star to add in. One morning he went to breakfast and when he got back to the hotel room all the cans he so thoughtfully emptied to bring home were taken away. All that work for nothing!

Cheers, scat

Spartan2: "It is sort of cute. We put a new Spartan Green metal roof on it this summer and it looks a lot cuter now. :-) Cuter? More cute? Whatever.

"

I love it!

Jealously and Sincerely,

Miss Molly

scat: "



Those cans are trash. You can’t even tell what type of beer it is. I still have 300 beer cans or so. Why I have no idea. I do have some nice ones tho. Kinda funny story. My dad was a salesman so when he traveled he would bring me home cans for my collection from around the country. I can just see him now in a hotel room in Austin putting down a sixer of Lone Star to add in. One morning he went to breakfast and when he got back to the hotel room all the cans he so thoughtfully emptied to bring home were taken away. All that work for nothing!


Cheers, scat"

Cool trains, Scat!

scat: "



Those cans are trash. You can’t even tell what type of beer it is. I still have 300 beer cans or so. Why I have no idea. I do have some nice ones tho. Kinda funny story. My dad was a salesman so when he traveled he would bring me home cans for my collection from around the country. I can just see him now in a hotel room in Austin putting down a sixer of Lone Star to add in. One morning he went to breakfast and when he got back to the hotel room all the cans he so thoughtfully emptied to bring home were taken away. All that work for nothing!


Cheers, scat"

It’s a little hard to see in the photo, but they are all cans of Miller High Life.
I collected beer cans in jr and sr high school, and my father also would bring some home from travels. I recognize several from youR photo. Having once collected is why I noticed the age of the cans in the first place and stopped to consider trash vs artifact. Most people now days don’t even know what a pull tab is, let alone a zip top.

The Gablinger can is a an all time classic. This was the first attempt at Lite beer. It failed, the recipe was sold to Miller who marketed it as Tastes great, Less filling. The rest is history.

missmolly: "

Spartan2: "It is sort of cute. We put a new Spartan Green metal roof on it this summer and it looks a lot cuter now. :-) Cuter? More cute? Whatever.


"

I love it!


Jealously and Sincerely,


Miss Molly"

I have seen pictures of your beautiful gardens and landscaping in the Maine Woods so you surely don't envy me! But this little place (not a lot more than a shack when we started doing a few needed renovations) is something I always wanted to have. Just a quiet place on the lake. I don't fish, but I can sit and watch the water, any water, for a whole day and not be bored! Today is my dad's birthday; if he were alive he would be 104. When he died in 2005 he left me a small inheritance. When I was putting it in the bank, figuring we would invest it, my wonderful husband said, "Why don't you buy a little lake cottage? You have always wanted one." I immediately started looking for someplace humble (cheap) and quiet, and soon we were beginning to work on this cottage. Now, in our sixteenth summer with it, we have found it to be a godsend during the pandemic situation. A change of scenery, a place where one of us can go alone when 24/7 "togetherness" becomes a bit of a burden. And a place to have our annual "grandchild vacations" since the usual road trips are not practical.

I am hijacking this thread. Sorry. I suppose to be on-topic I should say that many people would have considered our cottage "trash" , and we looked at it more like it was an artifact. Anything built in the 40's and 50's doesn't seem old to us. . .but of course that is all in your perspective.

Looks and sounds like a wonderful place. I envy you.

scat: "


"

I'm not a beer drinker, however, I always had it in my head it was "Meister Brau"... but I see in your picture a can of "BrauMeister."

Is it the same company?

Of course there is a Meister Brau. There is a specimen in the one pic. Top left corner. Not a beer drinker myself anymore after having chemo, but I would throw down an Olde Frothingslosh if it was presented to me. The pale stale ale with the foam on the bottom, with the stunning model Fatima Yeckburg on the can in a swimsuit. Got that can in 3 different colors. Priceless right. Oh yeah.

My personal opinion:
They are trash; they will never be artifacts.
There is nothing historic about some guys drinking beer in the woods, and then trashing the woods with empty beer cans.

I have posted a few photos of some things that I believe qualify as artifacts, or some day will.

BOB


P.S. I may be biased, as most pictured items are mine, but I still think those beer cans are trash.

If anyone ever saw episodes of "Life After People," which shows what will happen to all our big artifacts, such as skyscrapers, dams, nuclear power plants, etc. after we're gone (Spoiler: Nature takes it all down and heals the land.), the most interesting fact I learned was that bronze goes on and on and on. So, a critter a million years from now will be walking through the woods and see one of our bronze memorials. What a hoot, eh?

SCAT looks like you went to the same upscale HS parties I did!

My all time fav can. The Iron City 1975 Steelers super bowl can with the pull tab intact. I’m from the Chicago area but Jack Lambert was my football hero. I always had #58 on my jersey when I played in HS and college. Not an artifact, but in my beer can world, I think it’s pretty cool.

missmolly: "... (Spoiler: Nature takes it all down and heals the land.), the most interesting fact I learned was that bronze goes on and on and on. So, a critter a million years from now will be walking through the woods and see one of our bronze memorials. What a hoot, eh? "

The word "heals", and all its synonyms, suggests the involvement of a sentient force. Entropy just is, and the remaining members of the biosphere will only do what they do best, without regard to our absence. Maybe someday something will come to be, find, and end up worshiping one of our discarded bronze works.

"The word "heals", and all its synonyms, suggests the involvement of a sentient force."

Hmm. Why do you think that? My body does all kind of self-healing without my input.

missmolly: "Hmm. Why do you think that? My body does all kind of self-healing without my input."

Because of the context in which it was used. Nature healing the land … As if two entities are involved … Like a doctor healing a patient. The context also assumes that people, or maybe our works, are a sickness to the land. We are a part of it like all other life.

When a body self heals it is pretty much just a cascade of chemical reactions established by our genes.

I could argue this all day, but it's so far off-topic that I'll just wink at ya! ;-)

inspector13: "

missmolly: "Hmm. Why do you think that? My body does all kind of self-healing without my input."

Because of the context in which it was used. Nature healing the land … As if two entities are involved … Like a doctor healing a patient. The context also assumes that people, or maybe our works, are a sickness to the land. We are a part of it like all other life.

When a body self heals it is pretty much just a cascade of chemical reactions established by our genes.

"

So what do you think about those beer cans that I decided to just leave there? Trash or artifact?

Jaywalker, I say trash.

On our May '20 trip we found and packed these out; found them all in a little pile on an LLC island. The Hamms can (based on limited internet research) is from about 1967.

I have two Schmidt pheasant cans. That’s a Minn brew who’s cans were highly sought after back in the day. The brew that grew with the great north woods. I think the plan was to trade one pheasant can for a musky one. That was the most treasured one. I do have the pike, but a pike’s not a musky.
Keep looking. Find me a mint condish Schmidt’s beer musky can and I’ll call it an artifact if it seals the deal. Find me one with beer still in it and I’ll call you a burgeoning artifact archeologist and a brilliant man.

Cheers, scat

With pull tabs they're trash. If they required the use of a can opener they would be artifacts.

Jaywalker: "

inspector13: "

missmolly: "Hmm. Why do you think that? My body does all kind of self-healing without my input."

Because of the context in which it was used. Nature healing the land … As if two entities are involved … Like a doctor healing a patient. The context also assumes that people, or maybe our works, are a sickness to the land. We are a part of it like all other life.


When a body self heals it is pretty much just a cascade of chemical reactions established by our genes.


"

So what do you think about those beer cans that I decided to just leave there? Trash or artifact? "

I answered way upthread: "Those cans are trash. Their story, i.e. of guys getting drunk, isn't one worth telling."

This is funny stuff: "Find me a mint condish Schmidt’s beer musky can and I’ll call it an artifact if it seals the deal. Find me one with beer still in it and I’ll call you a burgeoning artifact archeologist and a brilliant man."