I was taking some steps towards planning a sailboat camping trip on Trout Lake until realizing that sailboats are not allowed even on those lakes where motors are permitted. Not trying to change the world but curious if anyone knows how this came to be.

Also would welcome any suggestions on other suitable destinations that do not draw an excessive density of the style of camping that involves running a generator all night.

Finally wondering if the situation regarding sail is any different in the Quetico.

I have also wondered about some of these restrictions. I would prefer to see a sailboat (reasonable size) than hear a motor boat. My guess has always been that sailboats are not generally allowed in wilderness areas, and the small motors have specific exemptions.

I have always thought that it would be reasonable to have a peddle kayak on a motor lake. Using your legs as a 0.25HP motor.

I think there are two aspects to the prohibition.

1) there are some ideas that levers and hinges make a sailboat a machine and that is not allowed in a wilderness area.

2) exceptions to the machine rule can be made for forms of travel that are traditional to the area. Sailboats are not traditional to the BWCA.

You can have at it running downwind with a jury rigged spinnaker made from a tarp.

I think it would be an interesting challenge to rig a folded tarp, a branch as a mast, and some rope into a boom less sailboat that could sail upwind. But hand holding paddles as a rudder and leeboard would be tiring.

Even if sailboats were allowed they would be a pain to portage. Wheels aren’t allowed either.

But it does seem a little silly to disallow them on lakes that allow motors.

I heard a story that someone hauled a sailboat over a portage in winter and then had plans to rent it as a place to stay in, but I have never found sound evidence. I have also heard that when sailboards got popular that some would portage in and sail around soiling campers experiences; it would mine! All just stories as far as I know.

Looks like Burntside and Vermillion both have backcountry campsites which should give a feeling similar to the BW. Found these after just a quick search but I bet other big lakes in the area (outside the BW) would have sites too.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/superior/recarea/?recid=37139

https://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=1133086&forumID=16&confID=1

"MOTOR-POWERED WATERCRAFT Motorized watercraft meeting specific horsepower limitations are allowed on designated routes and lakes only. NO other motorized or mechanical equipment (including pontoon boats, sailboats, ATV’S, sailboards, etc) is allowed.Motors may not be used or in possession on any paddle-only lake.Portage wheels or mechanical assistance are only permitted over the following areas: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone and Back Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, Prairie Portage, and Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage.-All of the above are enforceable United States Forest Service regulations.-" USFS BWCAW Rules on the USFS website.

Starts with USFS rules concerning motor travel and adapted/modified for Wilderness Areas/BWCA.

Quetico uses very similar rule sets as both BWCA and Quetico were meant to be a contiguous wilderness/park area with compatible rule/regulations.

butthead

In the late eighties or early nineties an outfitter (Andy Hill I think) brought a sailboat across the truck portage to Basswood and offered it up for rent. I think it was a smaller boat with a modest cabin- under 30ft. I passed it on the entrance to Bayley Bay on a solo trip. The next year the rules were amended to make it clear that such vessels were not permitted.

Banksiana: "In the late eighties or early nineties an outfitter (Andy Hill I think) brought a sailboat across the truck portage to Basswood and offered it up for rent. I think it was a smaller boat with a modest cabin- under 30ft. I passed it on the entrance to Bayley Bay on a solo trip. The next year the rules were amended to make it clear that such vessels were not permitted."

When I canoed the Thames River in England, we paddled past a sailboat race. The Thames is never a wide river, so even though we paddled up against the bank, the sailboats came quite close to us. So, whereas a motorboat can corner like a Miata, a sailboat corners like a Buick and that might be the fear, i.e. a canoe/sailboat collision.

andym: "I think there are two aspects to the prohibition.

1) there are some ideas that levers and hinges make a sailboat a machine and that is not allowed in a wilderness area.

This seems to be the post-hoc justification in many people's minds but I am skeptical that it had anything to do with why the policy was initially adopted. There are lots of ways to build a sailboat. I can build a sailboat out of wood that doesn't have any levers, hinges, pulleys, etc., other than a rudder -- the same kind of rudder that is permitted on a kayak.

Sailboats are not traditional to the BWCA.

I think that actually makes more sense.

I also think that it takes a large stretch of the imagination to believe conclusively that sailboats were never part of the tradition on the larger lakes. There isn't much historical record from prior to the late 19th century, certainly not the remnants of dozens of boats or dozens of first-person narratives that would be enough to draw such a conclusion. There were sailboats on Superior. There were sailboats on Hudson Bay. The knowledge, the components, the skills were all nearby and surely someone at least did some experimenting over the years.

You can have at it running downwind with a jury rigged spinnaker made from a tarp.

I think it would be an interesting challenge to rig a folded tarp, a branch as a mast, and some rope into a boom less sailboat that could sail upwind. But hand holding paddles as a rudder and leeboard would be tiring.

I'm not interested in ruleslawyering my way into the BWCA with a marginally acceptable boat. That said, the way you do what you describe is use a boat (maybe even a canoe) that has a keel that is part of the hull shape so you don't need a leeboard. Then set either a sprit rig or a lug rig, either one is freestanding with two short spars and can use a sail laced to a spar rather than a halyard, so no pulley. No boom, just a line to control the clew.

See for example the Duck Punt style that is traditional in England for an example of a hull shape that is suitable for shallow waters and that does not require a leeboard. As another point of interest, they are traditionally steered with a paddle rather than a rudder, though most of the directional control is achieved by shifting body weight from one side to the other.

Even if sailboats were allowed they would be a pain to portage. Wheels aren’t allowed either.

Well, my opening post was regarding trout lake, which has the mechanized portage from Vermilion.

The easiest sailboats to portage are wood ones that are designed to break into two pieces for storage on the bow of a larger boat. Typically the heaviest piece is 50-60 pounds and the longest spar is 10 feet. See for example the PT-11 or the CLC Passagemaker, either of which would be a joy to use in the BWCA environment if it were permitted.

prettypaddle: "Looks like Burntside and Vermillion both have backcountry campsites which should give a feeling similar to the BW. Found these after just a quick search but I bet other big lakes in the area (outside the BW) would have sites too.

Thank you for the tip and the link. I have been on Vermilion many times but was unaware that there were backcountry campsites accessible from the water.

missmolly:
When I canoed the Thames River in England, we paddled past a sailboat race. The Thames is never a wide river, so even though we paddled up against the bank, the sailboats came quite close to us. So, whereas a motorboat can corner like a Miata, a sailboat corners like a Buick and that might be the fear, i.e. a canoe/sailboat collision. "

I don't race. Sailboat racers consider half a boatlength to be plenty of clearance and yes dealing with a race is frustrating for other river users.

I canoe quite a bit and sail quite a bit. On a calm day canoes handle better than sailboats. On a windy day sailboats handle better than canoes. Another fact to consider is that sailboats, because of their low speed and displacement hull design, do not produce any significant wake.

I have done quite a bit of research on this site regarding the use of sails in canoes, and one member, awhile back, commented that they received an official response from the USFS that any kind of sail used to propel a canoe forward was illegal, as it was deemed "mechanical advantage". After this post, I finally decided to call and just ask. The nice person I spoke to said it all really hinges (pun intended) on mechanization. I have a pop-up canoe sail that my wife bought for me last Christmas, and I did not bring it for fear of violating a rule - especially in front of my kids. I emailed him a link to the canoe sail on Amazon, and he is going to run it past the "powers that be" to see what they say. He said that stretching a tarp between two paddles is fine. Any sort of mechanization is not. Below is a pic of the sail I am inquiring about, and I'll follow up when I get formal word back on if it is legal.
Here is the contact info if you want to reach out yourself:
(218) 626-4300
link to contact form

Banksiana: "In the late eighties or early nineties an outfitter (Andy Hill I think) brought a sailboat across the truck portage to Basswood and offered it up for rent. I think it was a smaller boat with a modest cabin- under 30ft. I passed it on the entrance to Bayley Bay on a solo trip. The next year the rules were amended to make it clear that such vessels were not permitted."

This is what I heard as well.

I'm not suggesting trying to squeeze in past the rules. Like you, I also sail and just think it is interesting to think about the minimum sailboat. The Duck Punt style is interesting with those sharp corners on the hull. I wonder how well they point to the wind using just the hull edges as the resistance.

But in the BW, I like paddling and even the PT-11 looks like a portaging pain in the butt. Possible, yes, but it's much easier to just pick up a canoe than have to take down sails and the mast or take a hull apart.

Sailboat races can be a pain to paddlers. Paddlers have right of way over sailboats, even when they are racing. But sailboats are more maneuverable and precise than you might imagine and we are also willing to be very close to other boats. Combined with an urge to win, I can think of cases where some paddlers weren't so happy with our fleets.

I also gave up giving bent shaft paddling advice to SUP paddlers in our harbor. Most of them hold the paddle backwards but none of them seemed to like me sailing up in a 2000 lb 20' sailboat to chat.

So there are definitely issues with paddlers and sailboats mixing. In the BW, I would just add that people tend to paddle through or hang in a spot fishing. A nice day of sailing might mean going back and forth around a like and could be annoying to a lot of people.

I think Voyageurs would be a good solution. Lots of primitive campsites, similar to the bwca. Shallow spots are marked with Buoys. About half the campsites have docks, so houseboats can park there. i would think a sailboat would work.

There is also the convenience of stainless steel bear boxes.

Another vote for Burntside. A stunningly beautiful lake with lots of islands and campsites.

Lot of conjecture but the rules were established with the Wliderness Act 1964. This included the area known then as BWCA The name originated when The USFS changed the name of the Superior Roadless Primitive Area to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area in 1958.

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

from The Wilderness Act

Mechanical transport has been used to describe how oarlocks in row boats function and pulley rope systems on sailboats.

butthead

andym: "I'm not suggesting trying to squeeze in past the rules. Like you, I also sail and just think it is interesting to think about the minimum sailboat. The Duck Punt style is interesting with those sharp corners on the hull. I wonder how well they point to the wind using just the hull edges as the resistance.

Dylan Winter (of the Keep Turning Left series of sailing videos) did a video on these, which is worth looking up on youtube. He's a regular at the sailing anarchy forum. I'll ask him.

But in the BW, I like paddling and even the PT-11 looks like a portaging pain in the butt. Possible, yes, but it's much easier to just pick up a canoe than have to take down sails and the mast or take a hull apart.

Again, the focus of my interest (academic at this point) was lining up trips on the larger lakes with longer distances (where motorboats are present) -- Loon, Lac La Croix, Trout.

Paddlers have right of way over sailboats, even when they are racing.

As an aside, I don't believe that this is universally true. It certainly isn't true in navigable waters of the United States where the COLREGS apply.

butthead:

Mechanical transport has been used to describe how oarlocks in row boats function and pulley rope systems on sailboats.

butthead"

Not, as far as I know, by either congress or the courts. Perhaps by regulation, and I'm curious where this first started.

I don't believe there are any wilderness areas other than the BWCAW that include lakes. The wilderness wanderings of my Misspent Youth (tm) were in the Cohutta wilderness, featuring rivers too shallow to canoe, and certain parts of the Sangre de Cristo wilderness in Colorado. Neither of these areas are canoeable let alone sailable. The other wilderness areas are similar.

Of course, it's easy to build a small sailboat without pulleys (or blocks, as the devices that are found on small sailboats are usually called) . Smaller sailboats with one-sail rigs (lug, sprit) don't need halyards, and the sheet doesn't really need a block (though they are used for convenience).

But I'm not convinced that the real intent here was to outlaw pulleys. Hardly seems like a crime -- Mr Green, convicted of being found in possession of a pulley while in the BWCAW. Must be more to it than that.

Google "mechanical transport". I'm with 2Air on this.

What is mechanical transport?

On the other hand:



43 CFR § 6301.5 - Definitions..

Well, here’s what the US Coast Guard has to say,
“ 13. Where do Kayaks and Canoes fit into the Navigation Rules? Kayaks and Canoes are a vessel under oars and are addressed specifically in Rule 25 (lights)

Although a vessel under oars may be lit as a sailing vessel, one should not infer that they are considered to be a sailing vessel for other Rules (i.e. Rule 9, 10, 12, 18 or 35). Ultimately, the issue of whether a vessel under oars is the give way or stand-on vessel would fall to what would be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case (Rule 2), and, the notion that they are less able than most other vessels.“

Which basically says that vessels under oars, including paddle craft, are considered less able to maneuver and so they are the stand-on vessel and should maintain course while sailboats give way and maneuver around them. That wouldn’t apply if the paddler is overtaking the sailboat. You can’t just plow into the stern of another boat no matter what.

Other than closed racing courses, I am unaware of any exception for racing.

In our races and while just sailing we always treat paddle craft in that way.

As for the actual ability of paddlers to maneuver, I suspect the average skill here is way above the average person renting a kayak in our harbor.

2AirIsHuman: "

missmolly:
When I canoed the Thames River in England, we paddled past a sailboat race. The Thames is never a wide river, so even though we paddled up against the bank, the sailboats came quite close to us. So, whereas a motorboat can corner like a Miata, a sailboat corners like a Buick and that might be the fear, i.e. a canoe/sailboat collision. "

I don't race. Sailboat racers consider half a boatlength to be plenty of clearance and yes dealing with a race is frustrating for other river users.


I canoe quite a bit and sail quite a bit. On a calm day canoes handle better than sailboats. On a windy day sailboats handle better than canoes. Another fact to consider is that sailboats, because of their low speed and displacement hull design, do not produce any significant wake."

Because a sailboat is much heavier and faster than a canoe, when it whizzes past, what feels safe to the sailboater might not feel safe to a canoeist, much like a driver whizzing past a bicyclist and the driver feeling quite safe in all their steel bulk, but the bicyclist feeling anything but safe.

True, Miss Molly. And people competing sometimes are too focused on winning and forget to be nice.

butthead: "
Mechanical transport has been used to describe how oarlocks in row boats function and pulley rope systems on sailboats.
butthead"

I was surprised to see the oarlocks included, but I can also see how oarlocks could be interpreted as mechanical advantage.

Made me think back to May 2017. We had just completed the Tuscarora portage. There was a group coming out that said they had been fishing Little Sag and go every year around opener. Nothing too extraordinary except that at least one, maybe two of their canoes were rigged with a “cage” for the bow paddler to use oars. Maybe an older version of this:
Spring Creek Oar Kit
At the time, I just thought it was odd and couldn’t be worth the added weight (especially for the Tuscarora portage). I asked them about it, and they said definitely worth it. I didn’t even think about it being against the rules.

I’ve also thought about taking my father in law out in my little aluminum boat with the 8HP motor. Would have definitely had the standard oars/oarlocks for backup. Maybe I need to rethink that plan.

Good point. If sailboats are prohibited even on motor lakes, does that apply to oars too? And if so, can you use oars as a backup to a failed motor or do you have to stick with paddles? I’ve paddled a 20’, 2000lb sailboat. It is more effective than you would expect. Sailboats have pretty efficient hull designs.

From the BWCAW Management Plan, "Watercraft with types of rowing devices that were in regular use us the BWCAW, prior to the 1978 BWCAW Act, are permitted." Since ordinary oars and oarlocks were nearly universally carried on motorized fishing boats in the 1960s and 1970s as a backup, and regularly used as primary propulsion, I think those should be fine. In a forum search, I ran across anecdotal reports of people using them without objection when when being checked by law enforcement.

I would think that outriggers and a sliding seat would be, at best, a grey area, and pedal powered mechanisms pretty clearly noncompliant.

andym: "The Duck Punt style is interesting with those sharp corners on the hull. I wonder how well they point to the wind using just the hull edges as the resistance.

I asked and the response I got was "better than you think." There was some further discussion and it was brought up that the main drawback of the design is that, due to the flat bottom, it does not handle chop (waves) at all well.

analyzer: "I think Voyageurs would be a good solution. Lots of primitive campsites, similar to the bwca. Shallow spots are marked with Buoys. About half the campsites have docks, so houseboats can park there. i would think a sailboat would work.

There is also the convenience of stainless steel bear boxes."

Thank you for the suggestion. I have been looking at Voyageurs. I have tentatively concluded that due to the size of the lakes and the presence of significant numbers of much larger motorboats that it is not suitable for a small (10-15') sailboat. I do also have a 26' sailboat that might be a better fit there and may organize a trip around that, but it would be a trip of a very different character than the more primitive journey I have in mind for the smaller boat.

Mechanical transport also applies to bicycles. No mountain biking in any wilderness areas in the U.S.

I think both the sailboat and bicycle prohibition rules in wilderness areas are stupid, but I don't make the rules. It's way more disruptive to hear people blasting music from their canoes in the middle of the lake than seeing a sailboat in the middle of Brule Lake or wherever.

Thanks for the info on the duck punt. It is an interesting design and the shallow draft could be an advantage in north woods lakes where there are often hidden rocks lurking about. Although that is less of a problem on larger lakes.

A good small sailboat for camping and rough water is the 12’ San Francisco Pelican. It is boxy and so has lots of room for people and gear. It was designed to handle rough water well and they used to be raced across the Bay and back. However, they are hard to find in the Midwest. We have one and I just love the sound of water on the square, wood bow.

I’m guessing you can get away with rowing if a motor has broken down but not just as a rowboat. Which is too bad because my wife loves rowing. We do have a rowing rig up there for use outside the BW.

dex8425: "Mechanical transport also applies to bicycles. No mountain biking in any wilderness areas in the U.S.


I think both the sailboat and bicycle prohibition rules in wilderness areas are stupid, but I don't make the rules. It's way more disruptive to hear people blasting music from their canoes in the middle of the lake than seeing a sailboat in the middle of Brule Lake or wherever.


"

I have learned to respect the opinions of others. There are definitely a lot of legal things we can do in the BWCA that are far more destructive than some of the stuff we can’t. The Loud music is a good example. I gotta disagree on the bikes though. They would do a real number on a lot of portages.

I thought sailboats were prohibited due to aesthetics. I find them hardly a mechanical machine as the rule was written for. A lot of rules are wonky but we have to have them, the good and bad.
Tom

tumblehome: "

dex8425:
I think both the sailboat and bicycle prohibition rules in wilderness areas are stupid, but I don't make the rules. It's way more disruptive to hear people blasting music from their canoes in the middle of the lake than seeing a sailboat in the middle of Brule Lake or wherever.



"

I have learned to respect the opinions of others. There are definitely a lot of legal things we can do in the BWCA that are far more destructive than some of the stuff we can’t. The Loud music is a good example. I gotta disagree on the bikes though. They would do a real number on a lot of portages.

Tom"

I ride a fat bike and I agree that MTBs can tear up portages/trails, particularly those prone to being wet (which is probably most of them).

Several people have mentioned pulleys when discussing sailboats. I have used a pulley system when hanging my food barrel. Is that a violation of the "mechanical advantage" provision?

The rule, as quoted above, is “ no other form of mechanical transport.” Unless someone wants to rule that the vertical movement of your food bag is transport, I think that you are ok.

2AirIsHuman: "From the BWCAW Management Plan, "Watercraft with types of rowing devices that were in regular use us the BWCAW, prior to the 1978 BWCAW Act, are permitted." Since ordinary oars and oarlocks were nearly universally carried on motorized fishing boats in the 1960s and 1970s as a backup, and regularly used as primary propulsion, I think those should be fine. In a forum search, I ran across anecdotal reports of people using them without objection when when being checked by law enforcement.


I would think that outriggers and a sliding seat would be, at best, a grey area, and pedal powered mechanisms pretty clearly noncompliant."

Good clarification. The oars are fair game for motor lakes.

Anyone know about oars/oarlocks for non-motorized lakes?

Are trolling motors fair game on motorized lakes? I wasn’t around pre-1978 to know if electronic trolling motors were used or if trolling motors just fall under the definition of motor. Would be much less disruptive than my 2-stroke!

scotttimm: "I have done quite a bit of research on this site regarding the use of sails in canoes, and one member, awhile back, commented that they received an official response from the USFS that any kind of sail used to propel a canoe forward was illegal, as it was deemed "mechanical advantage". After this post, I finally decided to call and just ask. The nice person I spoke to said it all really hinges (pun intended) on mechanization. I have a pop-up canoe sail that my wife bought for me last Christmas, and I did not bring it for fear of violating a rule - especially in front of my kids. I emailed him a link to the canoe sail on Amazon, and he is going to run it past the "powers that be" to see what they say. He said that stretching a tarp between two paddles is fine. Any sort of mechanization is not. Below is a pic of the sail I am inquiring about, and I'll follow up when I get formal word back on if it is legal.
Here is the contact info if you want to reach out yourself:
(218) 626-4300
link to contact form "

As promised, here is the response. The type of sail I asked about is not allowed:
Hey Scott,



I apologize for the wait and thank you for your patience on my response.



As I had thought, the aftermarket sail you referenced would be considered mechanical transport and not allowed under Wilderness regulations. Everything motorized or mechanized (and a sail is considered mechanized) is prohibited except what was specifically provided for in the legislation (motorized use on select lakes with horsepower limits).



The good news is that if your goal is to use the sail, the Forest has many lakes and backcountry camping opportunities outside the Wilderness where your sail could be utilized. If I can provide further information on these opportunities, please let me know.



If I can clarify any of the above information or be of any further assistance, please don’t hesitate to ask. Go State!



Regards,

tumblehome: "


"

I have learned to respect the opinions of others. There are definitely a lot of legal things we can do in the BWCA that are far more destructive than some of the stuff we can’t. The Loud music is a good example. I gotta disagree on the bikes though. They would do a real number on a lot of portages.
Tom"

Any self respecting real mountain biker wouldn't ride trails when the trails are wet, which is when damage occurs. The portages aren't really rideable anyway. The problem for me is that hard, dry, and buffed out singletrack that would be really fun on a mountain bike in many western wilderness areas is closed to bikes. Don't want to derail the discussion and I'm a tumblehome podcast listener, carry on.

Thanks for the info on the circular sails.

Overall, I could see supporting sailboats and rowboats, even with sliding seats, on motor lakes but I'm glad if we are limited to jury rigged tarps on paddle-only lakes. It just puts everyone on an even footing.