Chat Rooms (0 Chatting)  |  Search  |   Login/Join
* For the benefit of the community, commercial posting is not allowed.
Boundary Waters Quetico Forum
   Trip Planning Forum
      Multiple permits/Same day     
 Forum Sponsor

Author

Text

burgydancer
distinguished member (120)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 10:31AM  
Ok, maybe I am being difficult and nitpicky. Maybe I need to be set straight. Maybe I am just going stir crazy with this pandemic.

One of my pet peeves is when I see people reserving multiple permits with different entries for the same date because they are not sure where they want to enter yet and they want to be sure they can get a permit. I know it can be done. I know the gov rec site allows it, yet for me that doesn't make it right.

When this is done, others cannot reserve an entry and plan their trips. Many people have to plan far in advance due to family, travel, work schedule and vacation issues and having permits gone limits their ability to plan their trips.

I guess I just see it as selfish, maybe not intentionally, but it still seems so.

Thoughts?
 
Reply    Reply with Quote    Print Top Bottom Previous Next
mschi772
distinguished member(588)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 10:46AM  
Yeah, it is allowed. Yeah, it is selfish and disrupts others' ability to plan/access. Eventually they cancel all but their chosen one which can benefit people who don't plan so far ahead by opening-up access to permits they might not have had otherwise...if they happen to look at just the right time. Is that a good enough reason to justify this selfish practice? No. Is this a common problem? I don't know. Are there other problems? Maybe; I've read rumors that people will buy-out entries for a period of time in order to deny others access in order to thin-out the population in an area. Does that *really* happen? I have my doubts.
03/06/2021 11:00AM  
How many people do you KNOW are doing it? I'm sure it happens but actually personally knowing folks that do....
03/06/2021 12:10PM  
From the reservation site:

One permit per day per permit holder. The Forest Service reserves the right to cancel multiple same-day reservations and overlapping reservations under the same permit holder name.

If you actually know of someone who has done this, give the name to the FS.
03/06/2021 12:31PM  
Would not be hard to buy out a given small number EP for a few days before you go. I doubt any guilty party would use their name more than once. No, I do not approve of this and know of no one who has tried to manipulate the system.
OMGitsKa
distinguished member (138)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 12:57PM  
The site should just not even allow you to have more than one BWCA permit for one date. It's pretty simple.
schweady
distinguished member(7274)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/06/2021 04:33PM  
OMGitsKa: "The site should just not even allow you to have more than one BWCA permit for one date. It's pretty simple. "
The fact that recreation.gov allows it is pretty irresponsible. Especially because, when it comes down to the day of issue, you can't legally obtain both (or all) of those permits. They will be flagged and not allowed.
JWilder
distinguished member (262)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 05:32PM  
This behavior really grinds my gears. Even though it is allowed certainly doesn't make it right...

"Ethical behaviour is doing the right thing when no one else is watching - even when doing the wrong thing is legal.” - Aldo Leopold
Northwoodsman
distinguished member(1582)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 06:14PM  
I thought that if you booked a second EP for the same day that the website canceled the first one. I have never tried it so I don't know for sure. If they weren't going solo I'm sure these folks would just have another member of the party reserve it. I guess you could have multiple accounts also.
burgydancer
distinguished member (120)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 07:08PM  
Actually I didn't know someone could do this until I saw on another message board a person saying they had 2 or 3 permits for the same day and wanted to know which one they should take and they would later give up the others. Honestly, I was ticked off.
03/06/2021 07:45PM  
Seems crazy their website allows it, but to be honest if you wanted to do it you could get around it anyway.

This is the exact reason Quetico increased their cancellation fees, especially if you wait until close to the entry date.

I’ve seen some entry points I wanted booked completely so I went to plan B which was not convenient only later to literally see half the original entry point open up when I wanted it. I have to plan trips way in advance so couldn’t change. I think it is more widespread than what others have posted...

It is what it is...some people only think of themselves and not the repercussions of how their actions affect others. All I can do is not do it myself and teach my kids to be better than that...

T
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2345)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 09:47PM  
Timakin...
Bravo...
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2345)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2021 09:49PM  
When I see people turn in permits so early, I wonder why....I'm all for limited number of permits issued.
Then have a limited number for pick up available same day. If more people then permits. Hold a lottery that morning.
I don't know.
03/07/2021 06:31AM  
burgydancer: "Actually I didn't know someone could do this until I saw on another message board a person saying they had 2 or 3 permits for the same day and wanted to know which one they should take and they would later give up the others. Honestly, I was ticked off."

I hope you informed them it was frowned upon by the FS and all other people looking for a permit.
03/07/2021 08:08AM  
Agreed - no es bueno grabbing multiple permits to game the system.
03/07/2021 08:49AM  
boonie: "burgydancer: "Actually I didn't know someone could do this until I saw on another message board a person saying they had 2 or 3 permits for the same day and wanted to know which one they should take and they would later give up the others. Honestly, I was ticked off."


I hope you informed them it was frowned upon by the FS and all other people looking for a permit. "


Right, what was the reaction of the rest of the people replying?
burgydancer
distinguished member (120)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/07/2021 09:19AM  
I alluded to the problem on the message board. Most people responded that it wasn't right, but people were able to do it. I agree that this situation represents one of the main issues we as a society are grappling with. Just because something may be "legal" it doesn't mean it is "right". We all need to learn the impact our actions and words have on others. Being considerate, thinking of others, is so very important.
Northwoodsman
distinguished member(1582)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/07/2021 07:21PM  
It's not "legal" to do it per FS regulations, it's "possible" to do it because of a flaw in the system.
03/07/2021 07:45PM  
Correct. It clearly states that on the reservation site, but if they didn't read that far and the system permits it, then they'll continue to do it (and others will follow) unless it's brought to their attention. So thanks for doing that. If you hadn't, I was going to offer to do it.
billconner
distinguished member(7693)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/08/2021 06:13AM  
Northwoodsman: "It's not "legal" to do it per FS regulations, it's "possible" to do it because of a flaw in the system."

Like chopping down a tree in the BWCAW.
Mocha
distinguished member(7337)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/08/2021 09:07AM  
A simple fix would be to increase permit reservation fees, user fees could stay the same.
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(13685)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
03/08/2021 09:34AM  
That’s really a selfish thing to do. They should charge this. Raise the fees to register and this might not happen. It’s crazy that a system allows people to tie up permits then don’t go so no one else can go.
Speckled
distinguished member (253)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/08/2021 10:20AM  
I've never much thought about this. Previous years I've never had trouble finding a permit. We'd pick a date whether it's opener, mid summer or late season, check the availability and there were usually a number of suitable options available. Never did the lottery and we'd reserve anywhere from a few months prior to the trip to a few days prior. I just never had an issue.

This year - I went to reserve a permit a few weeks ago for Fishing Opener and had a world of a time finding a viable option. All but the least popular seemed to be wiped clean a couple days prior to well into the summer. There's some left, but not anything like I remember in years past. New COVID users, normal Q users and it's a struggle. Issues like this thread point out are probably more noticeable as a result.

The simple fix seems to have the registration system restrict overlapping permits. It shouldn't be difficult to do.

03/08/2021 11:57AM  
Yes, it should be possible to just program it so it's not permitted (pun intended).
03/08/2021 12:48PM  
Mocha: "A simple fix would be to increase permit reservation fees, user fees could stay the same.
"


I agree, and don't see any real negative with this - but you have to increase the cancellation fee too. I mean, the reservation fee is like six bucks, right?!

If the reservation fee is increased, the ones most disproportionally affected groups will be small ones, especially solo trippers. But frankly as a solo tripper I am astounded that I can go in for a week, and my fee is $22. That's, what, three bucks and change a day? I know plenty of folks who go to the BWCA are budget constrained. Get it. But at the current levels almost everyone going into the BWCA will spend far more on food, fuel and/or gear purchases/rentals than they will on the permit.

A modest increase, along with the cancellation fee, seems worth considering.

But perhaps I am missing something? Flame away.
03/08/2021 01:41PM  
sns: "Mocha: "A simple fix would be to increase permit reservation fees, user fees could stay the same. "


I agree, and don't see any real negative with this - but you have to increase the cancellation fee too. I mean, the reservation fee is like six bucks, right?!

If the reservation fee is increased, the ones most disproportionally affected groups will be small ones, especially solo trippers. But frankly as a solo tripper I am astounded that I can go in for a week, and my fee is $22. That's, what, three bucks and change a day? I know plenty of folks who go to the BWCA are budget constrained. Get it. But at the current levels almost everyone going into the BWCA will spend far more on food, fuel and/or gear purchases/rentals than they will on the permit.

A modest increase, along with the cancellation fee, seems worth considering.

But perhaps I am missing something? Flame away."

I think you are spot on.
HayRiverDrifter
distinguished member(753)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/08/2021 01:50PM  
I understand the concerns, but I run trips for our church and there are cases where I need to reserve multiple permits for the same day. If I have multiple groups for example. It's easiest for me to initially reserve all the permits we need, then as the teams form, I assign an alternate leader for each group. I seem to remember there being a non-profit checkbox. I think this allows you to reserve multiple permits for a non-profit. It's just quicker and easier for me to use my login to reserve all permits. That also helps me track all the people who have gone over various years.

One other case is I have a large group, say 8, and I reserve two permits because I know we may have trouble finding one site for the whole group so I get two permits in case we need to split the group.

Just saying.

I also saw a suggestion to increase the cancelation fee. Like someone above said, how may people do you know that are doing this? So we punish everyone who has a legit reason cancel because of a few unethical people? I would bet the unethical people will simply create a second login and work around any new restrictions. You cannot legislate morality.
Porkeater
distinguished member (149)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/08/2021 02:43PM  
HayRiverDrifter: "I understand the concerns, but I run trips for our church and there are cases where I need to reserve multiple permits for the same day. If I have multiple groups for example."

I'm not sure what the significance of checking the "non-profit" box is as far as handling of a reservation goes, but maybe this is exactly why it's there. The rules on Recreation.gov state this:



Maybe that's why the ability of the FS to cancel the reservations appears to be discretionary, rather than just setting up the system to not allow it?
TH1988
 
03/08/2021 07:40PM  
Mocha: "A simple fix would be to increase permit reservation fees, user fees could stay the same.
"


An increase in permit reservation fees sounds like you may want to drive the (local) folks away. Even though it is in their own backyard. Increases in fees keep people away that are already stricken with tough times on money from this corona shutdown and other looming bills.
03/08/2021 10:59PM  
TH1988: "Mocha: "A simple fix would be to increase permit reservation fees, user fees could stay the same.
"



An increase in permit reservation fees sounds like you may want to drive the (local) folks away. Even though it is in their own backyard. Increases in fees keep people away that are already stricken with tough times on money from this corona shutdown and other looming bills. "


Seriously????....a cheap fishing pole costs more than the fees for a trip to the BWCA...I have a hard time seeing a small increase causing hardship. No one was advocating Quetico like camping fees on this thread. My fees for a week for a family of 4 last year were $54 if I remember right. Someone just posted a solo paddler pays $22 a trip?

T

03/09/2021 07:23AM  
I am definitely in favor of cancellation fees. Collect more up front and then the closer you get to the entry date the less you get back—all the way up to the full price.

You can avoid cancellation fees pretty easily...a novel idea people used to do when they thought more about others and less about themselves...don’t book a trip until you ACTUALLY know you can go.

If you had an emergency and had to cancel then the $22-$60 you lose is just the price of doing business. You would of spent way more on gas and food just to get the BWCAW so you still actually save money so it isn’t going to hurt anyone financially the only ones it would hurt are those gobbling up multiple permits...that could get costly—-but I don’t really feel sorry for them.

Is this widespread enough to warrant it? I barely go to the BWCAW and I’ve seen it in my last 2 trips. Last year for another example. I grabbed a late season permit to sag. There were 12 left...a week later they were all gone. I read on this site how people couldn’t get permits. Actual usage for my entry day that was allegedly sold out...that was half of them used out of I believe 17 permits? That seems rather widespread? If yoiu dump them a few days before I believe you are barely out any money and the chances of anyone knowing to look or be able to book a trip is minimal. I guess it benefited me as it seemed empty when all the permits were originally sold out for my area, but I don’t think it is right...

On your next trip check out how many permits are available on your allegedly sold out entry point the day of or before. It’s interesting... What if you dump them late in the day before? Does any one know if you can do that—-if so do we even know if they get offered to the public? We might not even know how bad this is?

T
tumblehome
distinguished member(1969)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/09/2021 07:47AM  
TH1988: "Mocha: "A simple fix would be to increase permit reservation fees, user fees could stay the same.
"



An increase in permit reservation fees sounds like you may want to drive the (local) folks away. Even though it is in their own backyard. Increases in fees keep people away that are already stricken with tough times on money from this corona shutdown and other looming bills. "


The distance from your house to the BWCA is irrelevant.

I live within a few miles of several venues that I have to pay the same amount to see as a person driving a thousand miles.

I’m not sure that charging more, or less will put a dent in the issue. That said, My Quetico permit cost me $100 up front. Some of which gets refunded to me if I cancel by a certain time frame before I leave. Due to the initial up-front cost, I am very certain of my trip when I book.

If the BWCA were to collect a large up front fee like Quetico, things would change even if the final trip cost was the same as it is today.

But remember, we are already paying dearly for the wilderness system with our federal taxes. By paying the fees we do, we are being double taxed.
Tom
dustytrail
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
 
03/09/2021 08:36AM  
I agree that one should not have more than one permit for the same period but. There has been a couple times I had to settle for a less desirable, at least for me, permit. As it got closer to time a more desirable permit opened up and I grabbed it. Then I immediately cancelled the other one. So I guess I'm guilty at least for a couple minutes of doing this. I would never sit on 2 or more permits but I would hate to loose the ability to switch and I would hate to cancel the one first and then find the other taken.
GopherAdventure
distinguished member(838)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/09/2021 11:46AM  
This reminds me of the old issue...”I wanted a June 14th permit, but they were gone so I snagged a June 15th permit and entered the Wilderness on June 14th with a day permit and waited until after dark to set up camp. No harm, no foul, right.”

Wrong. Of course, you can do this, but you’re breaking the rules, gaming the system, possibly stealing a campsite from someone with a real overnight permit for that first night, and being an a-hole. Inexcusable. The Aldo Leopoldo line fits perfectly here...

Tony
GopherAdventure
distinguished member(838)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/09/2021 11:53AM  
dustytrail: "I agree that one should not have more than one permit for the same period but. There has been a couple times I had to settle for a less desirable, at least for me, permit. As it got closer to time a more desirable permit opened up and I grabbed it. Then I immediately cancelled the other one. So I guess I'm guilty at least for a couple minutes of doing this. I would never sit on 2 or more permits but I would hate to loose the ability to switch and I would hate to cancel the one first and then find the other taken."

I believe what you’re doing is much different. Say you wanted a Lake One permit for July 17th, but they were gone so you nabbed a LIS North permit for the same day instead. If a permit for Lake One becomes available on the same day you wanted, or even within a few days. You have every right to gobble it up, then go cancel your permit for LIS. Anybody who has been on a dozen or more trips has probably done this before. In the end, you got your #1 choice and you weren’t hoarding permits. I’ve done it, nothing unethical about that.

Tony
MikeinMpls
distinguished member(819)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/09/2021 02:14PM  
GopherAdventure: "This reminds me of the old issue...”I wanted a June 14th permit, but they were gone so I snagged a June 15th permit and entered the Wilderness on June 14th with a day permit and waited until after dark to set up camp. No harm, no foul, right.”


Wrong. Of course, you can do this, but you’re breaking the rules, gaming the system, possibly stealing a campsite from someone with a real overnight permit for that first night, and being an a-hole. Inexcusable. The Aldo Leopoldo line fits perfectly here...


Tony"


Wow. I didn't even know this was a thing. Incredible.

Mike
tumblehome
distinguished member(1969)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/09/2021 05:32PM  
GopherAdventure: "This reminds me of the old issue...”I wanted a June 14th permit, but they were gone so I snagged a June 15th permit and entered the Wilderness on June 14th with a day permit and waited until after dark to set up camp. No harm, no foul, right.”


Wrong. Of course, you can do this, but you’re breaking the rules, gaming the system, possibly stealing a campsite from someone with a real overnight permit for that first night, and being an a-hole. Inexcusable. The Aldo Leopoldo line fits perfectly here...


Tony"


Yeah, anyone doing that might wish to consider going somewhere else. Illegal and unethical.

You enter the day before with a day permit. Your canoe(s) are loaded with gear. Your overnight permit is for the next day. A Ranger stops you. You get ticketed and are required to exit. The rest of your party is bummed out for the actual trip going in the next day because someone in the party mucked it all up.

I have not grabbed a permit for an entry point only to let it gone for a more desirable one later. Nobody in my groups historically have ever done that. Once I get a permit, it’s the one I use.
Tom

Tom
mschi772
distinguished member(588)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/09/2021 07:14PM  
GopherAdventure: "This reminds me of the old issue...”I wanted a June 14th permit, but they were gone so I snagged a June 15th permit and entered the Wilderness on June 14th with a day permit and waited until after dark to set up camp. No harm, no foul, right.”


Wrong. Of course, you can do this, but you’re breaking the rules, gaming the system, possibly stealing a campsite from someone with a real overnight permit for that first night, and being an a-hole. Inexcusable. The Aldo Leopoldo line fits perfectly here...


Tony"


This makes me think of the guy who got a Meeds permit and was looking for validation for entering at Lizz saying that he'll just end-up in the same place eventually anyway.
MikeinMpls
distinguished member(819)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 09:07AM  
mschi772: "GopherAdventure: "This reminds me of the old issue...”I wanted a June 14th permit, but they were gone so I snagged a June 15th permit and entered the Wilderness on June 14th with a day permit and waited until after dark to set up camp. No harm, no foul, right.”



Wrong. Of course, you can do this, but you’re breaking the rules, gaming the system, possibly stealing a campsite from someone with a real overnight permit for that first night, and being an a-hole. Inexcusable. The Aldo Leopoldo line fits perfectly here...



Tony"



This makes me think of the guy who got a Meeds permit and was looking for validation for entering at Lizz saying that he'll just end-up in the same place eventually anyway."


Yeah, I remember that. That was just last summer I believe. Wonder what he did.

Mike
thegildedgopher
distinguished member(1057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 02:17PM  
Us motor permit users have been singing this song for a while now, most of the community seems to shrug that off since motors are evil.

Day Motor permits are $6 a pop. Since they can be used on any day within a one-week time frame, and a fresh permit is required each day, a person who reserves 7 DM permits for the same week doesn't appear on the surface to be breaking any rules. In fact I don't believe there is any limit on the number of DM permits a person can purchase at all (other than maybe a limit on the number of permits in your rec.gov shopping cart before you check out and do it all over again).
thegildedgopher
distinguished member(1057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 02:27PM  
HayRiverDrifter: "I understand the concerns, but I run trips for our church and there are cases where I need to reserve multiple permits for the same day. If I have multiple groups for example. It's easiest for me to initially reserve all the permits we need, then as the teams form, I assign an alternate leader for each group. I seem to remember there being a non-profit checkbox. I think this allows you to reserve multiple permits for a non-profit. It's just quicker and easier for me to use my login to reserve all permits. That also helps me track all the people who have gone over various years.

One other case is I have a large group, say 8, and I reserve two permits because I know we may have trouble finding one site for the whole group so I get two permits in case we need to split the group.

Just saying.

I also saw a suggestion to increase the cancelation fee. Like someone above said, how may people do you know that are doing this? So we punish everyone who has a legit reason cancel because of a few unethical people? I would bet the unethical people will simply create a second login and work around any new restrictions. You cannot legislate morality."


Scenario #1 -- The proper way to do that is not under your personal account, but under the name of your registered non-profit org, which gives you the ability to change the trip leader's name at a later date. But you're only allowed THREE such reservations per year for your NPO. Maybe this is how you're doing it?

Scenario #2 -- Sorry, this goes against the spirit of the rules. If you're a large group you enter the wilderness knowing that it will be more difficult to find a campsite to accommodate your group. You shouldn't get to have a "just in case" permit that potentially goes to waste and prevents another user from accessing the BWCA. That's not right in my opinion.
schweady
distinguished member(7274)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/10/2021 03:44PM  
Agreed. Scenario #2 is a highly irresponsible move. Especially when considering that, should the group wind up staying on a desirably accommodating single site, they hold an unused permit, blocking any other group from their ability to reserve. Maybe, if one is consistently having a difficult time finding a site that will accommodate larger groups, one should consider smaller groups.
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2345)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 04:38PM  
Motors are not evil.
Long live the motor.
thegildedgopher
distinguished member(1057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 05:16PM  
yogi59weedr: "Motors are not evil.
Long live the motor."


:)
mschi772
distinguished member(588)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 06:21PM  
I had a group of 8 last year. I took that into consideration when I planned where we would go to minimize the chances of finding ourselves in an area that might not accommodate a large group comfortably. There are certain areas in the BWCA I just wouldn't go with a large group unless everyone was OK with the likelihood of being cramped and potentially in sub-par locations with tents.
jillpine
distinguished member(557)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 06:29PM  
So we punish everyone who has a legit reason cancel because of a few unethical people?

"Legit reason?" Because you're a large church group?
Please explain the logic of that statement, relative to the argument.
Because I think this is exactly the scenario. Everyone claims, "legit reason".

The fact is, the rules were made years ago, by people who didn't even trip there much. Why four canoes? Why nine people? Why not three canoes, seven people? Two canoes and five people? Much less tread, noise, urine at the portages, wear-and-tear. For me, personally, I don't mind seeing other folks. But those huge flotillas of four boats, nine people? It's a buzz kill. Your "legit reason" is my gripe....

just saying...



Speckled
distinguished member (253)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/10/2021 08:27PM  
In nearly 30 trips - I can think of maybe one site that wouldn't accommodate 4+ tents. Ya, the tent pads might not be ideal and might not be heavily used, but you could make it work.
billconner
distinguished member(7693)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/11/2021 06:21AM  
IIRC, the original proposal was for fewer than 9. I don't know if less than 4 canoes. It was the Scouts who lobbied successfully for 9. I'd guess they may have wanted 13, same as Philmont.

As far as 8 using two permits, effectively 2 groups of 4 who may or may not share sites, I have no problem with that. Somewhere in USFS documents I read 4 is the average group size.
BAWaters
distinguished member (108)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/11/2021 11:36AM  
OMGitsKa: "The site should just not even allow you to have more than one BWCA permit for one date. It's pretty simple. "

Agreed
Michwall2
distinguished member(1072)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/11/2021 12:27PM  
BAWaters: "OMGitsKa: "The site should just not even allow you to have more than one BWCA permit for one date. It's pretty simple. "

Agreed"


While I agree with your statement, the problem scenario is this:

I hold a permit for my second choice. I check back and my first choice is available. If I cancel my permit for the second choice in order to have the system allow me to pick up my first choice, this all takes time. By the time I get back to my first choice, it is gone. I go back to try to re-reserve my second choice and that one is also now gone. AAARRRGGGHHH!

How about a grace period in which to cancel one or both permits are cancelled? You could make it 5 min., 15 min., 30 min. Pick a number.
HayRiverDrifter
distinguished member(753)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/12/2021 03:40PM  
A couple of people took issue with my booking two permits for a group of 8.

We went in at the Homer entry point. If you read the camp site reviews, there is really only one site on Vern and Pipe that would hold a group that size. Also, when you take a big group of unrelated individuals many of which do not know the others in the group, everyone brings their own tent or hammock. We had 4 tents and 4 hammocks. We did get the big site on Vern and yes we all fit.

I like the option that allows more that one permit per site. There are lots of people on this site that do group solos where everyone has their own permit, they meet for a night or two, then head off on their own.

schweady
distinguished member(7274)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/13/2021 08:14AM  
HayRiverDrifter: "...I like the option that allows more that one permit per site...
"

The only upside of how your trip turned out: the potential of another group finding one additional open site - the one you didn't occupy once the nice, big site found met your criterion.

Still, to me, this doesn't seem to be the way it's supposed to work. After all, you took both of Homer's 2 daily permits... no other competing group coming in to pick up the site you didn't take.

Hey, maybe next year, I try to get 4 Mudro permits, all for the same date, one for each of our canoes in a group of 8?? That would take some furious keyboard pounding, but we could have half of Horse Lake to ourselves...
burgydancer
distinguished member (120)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/13/2021 04:47PM  
Dustytrail, I don't have a problem with your method of having a permit and if your 1st choice becomes available grabbing the first choice then cancelling the previous one immediately. This means you are only hold 2 permits for a few minutes. This shouldn't cause any significant problem preventing someone else from obtaining a permit and being able to plan and enjoy time in the BWCA. It is those that hold on to two or more permits for the same day or get more than one permit for "their group", those they are traveling with. This limits who has access. Though I admit, sometimes I see people up there who I would prefer to see have their access limited (leaving garbage, cutting live vegetation, excessively loud etc.), it is not my place to decide and enforce limits. Consideration of others and the impact our choices make on our communities and the world around of is so important, especially these days.
HayRiverDrifter
distinguished member(753)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/13/2021 09:53PM  
schweady: "HayRiverDrifter: "...I like the option that allows more that one permit per site...
"

The only upside of how your trip turned out: the potential of another group finding one additional open site - the one you didn't occupy once the nice, big site found met your criterion.

Still, to me, this doesn't seem to be the way it's supposed to work. After all, you took both of Homer's 2 daily permits... no other competing group coming in to pick up the site you didn't take.

Hey, maybe next year, I try to get 4 Mudro permits, all for the same date, one for each of our canoes in a group of 8?? That would take some furious keyboard pounding, but we could have half of Horse Lake to ourselves...
"


Nice. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
schweady
distinguished member(7274)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/13/2021 10:28PM  
HRD - Not sure if we've met in a former life, but I've been where you are now. Arranging and guiding larger church groups. Tempted to overbook. Doing it once in a while. Came to realize that I can't do it any more. Emotion probably magnified by the numerous incidents of crap that I saw on both of my trips last year. Sorry if it was piling on, but I can't seem to let such things go without hoping folks will think twice.
HayRiverDrifter
distinguished member(753)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/13/2021 10:30PM  
jillpine: "So we punish everyone who has a legit reason cancel because of a few unethical people?

"Legit reason?" Because you're a large church group?
Please explain the logic of that statement, relative to the argument.
Because I think this is exactly the scenario. Everyone claims, "legit reason".

The fact is, the rules were made years ago, by people who didn't even trip there much. Why four canoes? Why nine people? Why not three canoes, seven people? Two canoes and five people? Much less tread, noise, urine at the portages, wear-and-tear. For me, personally, I don't mind seeing other folks. But those huge flotillas of four boats, nine people? It's a buzz kill. Your "legit reason" is my gripe....

just saying...

"


I really enjoy how friendly and positive everyone is on this board. Now I remember why I quit posting on this board a while back. Heading back to the river now.
Reason
Guest Paddler
 
03/14/2021 09:28AM  
Couple people point out that you are in fact breaking the rules and you write the whole board off? OK. You got some opinions that didn’t mesh with your own. Life goes on. Maybe take it as an opportunity to be honest with yourself instead of taking the easy (defensive) path?
billconner
distinguished member(7693)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/14/2021 06:13PM  
HRD - sorry you're put off but don't blame you. I still see nothing wrong and a lot right with two permits for 4 each, even if they know each other and share some sites.
Michwall2
distinguished member(1072)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/15/2021 07:46AM  
billconner: "HRD - sorry you're put off but don't blame you. I still see nothing wrong and a lot right with two permits for 4 each, even if they know each other and share some sites. "

The way I read the board is that it is not that there are 2 permits for 8 people. Its that one person reserves all the permits for the same day. You will note that in HRD's original admission above that he reserves multiple permits, it is not necessarily limited to just one group of eight. There might be (for example) 3 groups of 8 that he is coordinating. So he is reserving 6 (2 for each group) permits for the same entry day. He says he does this for "convenience" and the "ease" of tracking attendees.

1. I also have no problem with 2 permits for 8 people. As long as each permit is reserved by a different person per the FS rules.

2. I could be wrong, but, given the nature of "group travel", I doubt that he actually uses all the permits he originally reserves. Nowhere does he state his timeline for "assigning alternate leaders" or cancelling unneeded permits.

3. There are a lot of FS rules that I wish I could ignore for my "convenience" and "ease". E.g. In some cases, it would be a lot easier and cheaper to bring a can of food rather than have to deal with dehydrated/freeze dried or find other alternates. The rules are there for a reason, even if you do not agree with that reason. You either respect the rules or you don't.

4. The "board" calling out the fallacy in a member's thinking about whether or not an individual's practices are in compliance with the BW rules and regs is not "negativity". As far as I can see, no board rules were violated. A good, healthy discussion about this practice has been helpful to those of us who do not run into this scenario very often, but could in the future.

billconner
distinguished member(7693)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/15/2021 06:28PM  
His reserving 2 to 6 permits is no different than an outfitter reserving many, many more, inevitably some for same days. He may have said all in his name, I missed that. I suspect they are in the name of members of his group. And like others here and outfitters, I'm sure some are cancelled. When I was active in a Scout troop, one leader reserved all the permits, 2 or 3 for same day, albeit all different entry points with leaders and alternates pre-assigned. We traveled to Ely together, stayed in same bunkhouse, and then went our ways, reconvening for after trip lodging and meal.
Michwall2
distinguished member(1072)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/16/2021 02:18PM  
billconner: "His reserving 2 to 6 permits is no different than an outfitter reserving many, many more, inevitably some for same days. He may have said all in his name, I missed that. I suspect they are in the name of members of his group. And like others here and outfitters, I'm sure some are cancelled. When I was active in a Scout troop, one leader reserved all the permits, 2 or 3 for same day, albeit all different entry points with leaders and alternates pre-assigned. We traveled to Ely together, stayed in same bunkhouse, and then went our ways, reconvening for after trip lodging and meal."

There is a BIG difference between an outfitter and an individual reserving multiple permits:

1. The outfitter reserves the permit in the name of the individual leader/alternate leader as a service to their customers. The outfitter is not listed as the leader and, I hope, would not reserve multiple permits for the same day with the same person listed as the leader of all those permits.

2. His reserving 2-6 permits for the same day as the leader of each permit clearly violates the FS rule. And his reassigning the alternate leaders at some nebulous later date (or cancellation), does not invalidate the fact that he, as one individual, holds multiple permits for the same entry date.

Perhaps what he really needs is a Outfitter/Guide Permit:

"Who Needs an Outfitter/Guide Permit?"
All individuals or organizations including non-profit organizations conducting outfitting and/or guiding activities on National Forest Land or adjacent waters should make an inquiry as to whether or not such activity would be properly classified as 'commercial'. This includes anyone assisting others in providing outdoor recreation experiences on the Superior National Forest. Some Examples are: commercial guides, church or youth groups, ski instructors, bus tours, or canoe liveries. If commercial, such activity may only be conducted after applying for and receiving and Outfitter/Guide Permit. If ther is not charge, fee, donation or tuition related to the program activity and if the group leader is not paid, an Outfitter/Guide permit may not be required. A Forest Service representative will make the decision on whether a permit is needed. For more information, visit www.fs.usda.gov/superior. Passes and Permits."

dustytrail
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
 
03/17/2021 09:54AM  
Actually HRD may not have done anything wrong when reserving multiply permits. It is completely allowed for non profits as long as the permit holder is the nonprofit. the leader can then be added at the time of permit pickup. So it would seem it is all in how you do it.

From the SNF web site
Reserving BWCAW Permits for a Non-Profit Organization
A non-profit organization (NPO) may reserve a limited number of permits under the organization's name, allowing any member of the organization to become the Group Leader at the time of permit pickup. A maximum of three reservations are allowed under the organization's name per season. An NPO using this option must be prepared to show evidence of legal non-profit status when picking up the permit
HayRiverDrifter
distinguished member(753)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/17/2021 01:06PM  
First off, I was not aware of the rule about not reserving multiple permits under my personal login when I booked the two permits and the system let me do it. Please forgive me for not reading all the rules. I took a look at my past reservations, and it was only the one trip last year where I reserved two permits under my own login. I will not do that again because it's not allowed in the rules and then you are on both permits. There is no way to assign a new primary leader so you pay for yourself twice. I discovered this a few days before the trip when I was adding everyone to the permits. Per the info above, maybe the non-profit checkbox will allow you to assign a leader later. I think in the past, I picked other leaders and had them book a permit.

I have never canceled a permit and I do not 'overbook' permits and cancel the ones I do not need. I have had the group size vary a lot though especially when setting up a group trip. People sign up and drop off all the time. Like I said above, I know the sites in that area were generally small so I booked both permits for that day. Had I known about the rule of one permit per person, I would have picked two people who were least likely to drop out and had one of them book the second permit.

I do not charge for trips other than shared expenses and I do not get paid so I do not think I need a 'Guide Permit'.

I recently started volunteering for a group that takes kids hunting and fishing and I would like to add wilderness canoe camping. The program I have in mind is to take teens in 9th grade to start and have them work their way up to a Senior trip where I take three others on a trip where we spend the first night as a group, then send everyone out solo for a night or two, and regroup for the final night. In this case, each individual would need to book a permit which is well within the rules.

Sorry if I was a bit surly, but I don't really like becoming the topic of conversation on a thread like this. This thread has cause me way to much stress and now I will have to spend a few evenings on the river to decompress. I am sure my wife will understand :-)
Michwall2
distinguished member(1072)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/17/2021 02:25PM  
HayRiverDrifter: "
I recently started volunteering for a group that takes kids hunting and fishing and I would like to add wilderness canoe camping. The program I have in mind is to take teens in 9th grade to start and have them work their way up to a Senior trip where I take three others on a trip where we spend the first night as a group, then send everyone out solo for a night or two, and regroup for the final night. In this case, each individual would need to book a permit which is well within the rules.

Sorry if I was a bit surly, but I don't really like becoming the topic of conversation on a thread like this. This thread has cause me way to much stress and now I will have to spend a few evenings on the river to decompress. I am sure my wife will understand :-)"


I love that you volunteer your time to take kids into the forest! Thank you for being that person.

I am sorry the thread caused you distress. Your situation is not uncommon. As I said earlier, I think discussions like this are very helpful. I like to understand how the "rules and regs" apply to me and how to make sure I am compliant in the future.

I had only found the reference to non-profits in the guide/outfitter section. I stand corrected 'dustytrail'.
billconner
distinguished member(7693)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
03/17/2021 05:54PM  
HRD, glad you can continue. There's a lot of joy in facilitating people getting into and enjoying the wilderness.
CityFisher74
distinguished member(523)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/22/2021 09:16AM  
FYI I received a letter from Dept of Agriculture this weekend telling me I need to cancel one of my multiple permits* by April 1 otherwise they will cancel one on my behalf.

*I've read and understand all of the negative aspects of reserving multiple permits for the same day. I have my reasons and you'll just have to trust it was more than personal greed. Hopefully recreation.gov gets smart enough to simply not allow this from happening in the first place.
Porkeater
distinguished member (149)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/22/2021 10:49AM  
CityFisher74: "FYI I received a letter from Dept of Agriculture this weekend telling me I need to cancel one of my multiple permits* by April 1 otherwise they will cancel one on my behalf.


*I've read and understand all of the negative aspects of reserving multiple permits for the same day. I have my reasons and you'll just have to trust it was more than personal greed. Hopefully recreation.gov gets smart enough to simply not allow this from happening in the first place."


Interesting. I've never heard of that happening before. Maybe they were reading this thread lol.
03/24/2021 11:52AM  
Savage Voyageur, I can relate how some might see this as a "selfish" thing to do. But, with this trip that I organize, I have brought over 100 individuals to the BW
Most of them were first timers. Many came again
It included fathers and sons, and grandfathers, high school friends, fathers and daughters. I plan all the meals,provide most of the gear, and book the permits. I pay my own way and do not collect a dime for myself. I could also make the point that four other paddlers are "selfish" because they choose to hog a permit all to themselves because they choose to go solo. But I won't because some day I would like to try a solo for my "selfish" self. In the meantime, I will abide by these new rules and work out a way to still help introduce this great place to the next generation. Thanks to all of you who have responded in ways of keeping it civil.
 
Reply    Reply with Quote    Print Top Bottom Previous Next