I suppose I could have posted this on the Trip Planning page, but I thought I might hit a bigger audience here.

Anyway, here's my situation. On the first day we could book permits for this year, I went in and booked four permits for June 13 for the church group I'm a part of and I coordinate the trip. Each year we get between twenty and thirty people who come on the trip. I've been doing this for the last fifteen years and the group has been going on this trip for over 50 years. While I'm listed as the leader on each permit, I designate someone else as the alternate leader. This was the way I was told to do it by the person who had coordinated the trips before me.

A couple of days ago, I received a letter from the US Forest Service stating that I cannot make multiple reservations for the same entry date and I have to cancel all but one of the permits I booked or they will cancel all of them and refund my payment. I've tried to call their office twice to speak to the person who was listed to contact with questions, left messages, but no response so far.

I'm afraid if I cancel them in order to have each specific group leader book the permit, it will be taken by someone else before we could rebook it. Also, there are no other permits in the area currently available for that date.

Are there any others who have had issues with the permits they have tried booking? I get it that they are trying to get a better control over what had happened last year, but my feeling that the biggest problem last year was caused by groups who went in without even getting permits.

What are your thoughts? Hope this does not open a can of worms.

I assume you read this.

Next year, get your leaders in advance.

I think all you can do is all sit down with laptops and accounts and do the best you can cancelling and trying to rebook. If you don't get all you want in that session, just check frequently.

I think in your position I'd create email accounts and rec.gov accounts for each leader, perhaps using Church's url, so you can act quickly.

Read this thread. Should answer most of your questions.

I sure am glad the FS is starting to try and straighten out their reservation mess. I think they are victims of their own policies. The intent of the reservation system has good merits but there are some nefarious permit holders that have found loopholes, gray areas, whatever you call it to grab multiple permits at a time.

A recent example is a person grabbing two permits and then canceling one later. Or getting a permit only to find a more desirable permit later, reserving a new one, then cancelling the first. While this sounds all fine, in this example, a permit is taken preventing others who would really use it from being able to reserve it, even if the original permit holder later cancels. Very unethical!

Then there are those who are legitimately using the system for multiple permits such as the OP from the church group. It’s the few that wreck it for the rest.

I think the permit system has been far too liberal for far too long and now with the explosion of new users, it’s time to pull it in. Everyone that wants to go to the BWCA can go but when people are snatching up two permits for one trip it makes the system looked booked when it really is not.
Tom

You all should see what everyone is doing with the new MN state park reservation system if this makes you mad. It is ridiculous! You can now only reserve 3 months before so people are reserving the entire week then 21 one days later canceling everything expect the weekends.

If he reserved four permits that were available at an entry point, that is how he did it. He was not doing anything the average Joe wasn't doing. They would still need to go in four separate groups of less than nine and camp separately.

So on this subject of more than one permit...last summer, my 16 year old son and his 17 year old friend were doing a trip together. Since my son is a minor, I used my account to pull the permit for him and I also pulled a permit for my solo trip starting the same day from a nearby EP. He was listed as the alternate leader which from my understanding is a legitimate way to do this. Was I totally off base? How else would I have done this? It seems a shame to lose this option just because a few other people really abuse the system.

We gather together as a big group and carpool from there up to the BW. Usually, we find a campground near our entries and spend the night. The next day, we break up into the smaller groups and depart to the specific entries we have permits for. At the end of the week, we all exit about the same time, come together as a big group, and go home. Then, I get to spend the next week cleaning, and putting away all the gear I provide until next year.

Canoearoo: "You all should see what everyone is doing with the new MN state park reservation system if this makes you mad. It is ridiculous! You can now only reserve 3 months before so people are reserving the entire week then 21 one days later canceling everything expect the weekends."

Clearly I'm missing something, but what does that accomplish?

Chieflonewatie: If he reserved four permits that were available at an entry point, that is how he did it. He was not doing anything the average Joe wasn't doing. They would still need to go in four separate groups of less than nine and camp separately. "

While it's certainly possible for four associated groups entering the same EP at the same time to remain autonomous and travel as four separate groups, it's not likely. (The OP explained that he was not having all groups enter at the same place, so my comment is directed more generally). This is especially true where the group may include a lot of newbies who are not familiar with the rationale behind the rule for traveling separately.

I have an example.

Two years ago, my wife and I were returning along the Moose River EP 16 route. I know that there are six permits available per day for that EP. On the way out, we had already encountered four groups on their way in. At one of the last portages, we came across a group of eight canoes and roughly sixteen people. I call them a group because they had matching canoes, similar gear, and were all in the same general age group. I assume they held the remaining two permits for the EP that day.

They tied up the end of one of the portages for the better part of 20 minutes while they loaded all the canoes and got underway. They were, for all practical purposes, one large group. They epitomized the reasoning behind the limit on group size.

Could they have spaced themselves out and traveled as two separate groups? Yes. Is that likely under the circumstances? No.

Next year, get your leaders in advance.


I think all you can do is all sit down with laptops and accounts and do the best you can cancelling and trying to rebook. If you don't get all you want in that session, just check frequently.


I think in your position I'd create email accounts and rec.gov accounts for each leader, perhaps using Church's url, so you can act quickly."

Knoozer, I think this about the best you can do now. Then just have separate leaders and alternate leaders for each permit. I do hope you get to talk to someone from USFS about the way to do it next year.

Porkeater: "

Canoearoo: "You all should see what everyone is doing with the new MN state park reservation system if this makes you mad. It is ridiculous! You can now only reserve 3 months before so people are reserving the entire week then 21 one days later canceling everything expect the weekends."

Clearly I'm missing something, but what does that accomplish? "

They are doing it to save the weekend before the date of the weekend is open so if you reserve the week before the weekend you get that weekend. Then when everyone who wants to camp that weekend logs in to sign up 3 months before they see that weekend is already taken. Then 21 days later they cancel most of the week but keep the weekend spot thus cheating the system.

straighthairedcurly: "So on this subject of more than one permit...last summer, my 16 year old son and his 17 year old friend were doing a trip together. Since my son is a minor, I used my account to pull the permit for him and I also pulled a permit for my solo trip starting the same day from a nearby EP. He was listed as the alternate leader which from my understanding is a legitimate way to do this. Was I totally off base? How else would I have done this? It seems a shame to lose this option just because a few other people really abuse the system."

And that... is the problem. In your case, you are not abusing the system but have run into an infraction by default. A few greedy people with bad intentions wreck the true spirit of the reservation system. From what we are reading this year, you have a good chance of getting a call or letter from the FS that you cancel once of your permits.

I said this before, Most people, and including me do not abuse the reservation system. I never have even thought about doing it and didn’t know so many people actually are circumventing the system. When I grab a permit for an entry point, whether it’s a great entry or a crappy one, it’s the one I keep. I’ve never cancelled one for another.
Tom

A slight modification to what I said above. I think I read in linked thread you can reserve three, as a church or Scout group or similar, so only need to designate and have on hand one other leader. Shouldn't be to hard.

And I appreciate the work you and similar not for profit volunteers do this work.

Dreaded double post. Sorry.

Canoearoo: "

Porkeater: "

Canoearoo: "You all should see what everyone is doing with the new MN state park reservation system if this makes you mad. It is ridiculous! You can now only reserve 3 months before so people are reserving the entire week then 21 one days later canceling everything expect the weekends."

Clearly I'm missing something, but what does that accomplish? "

They are doing it to save the weekend before the date of the weekend is open so if you reserve the week before the weekend you get that weekend. Then when everyone who wants to camp that weekend logs in to sign up 3 months before they see that weekend is already taken. Then 21 days later they cancel most of the week but keep the weekend spot thus cheating the system."

We used to camp a lot with our kids in the state parks. This new system would have put a serious wrench in our planning. We usually didn't book at least some of our trips until the summer was approaching. This new system sounds like it's very user-unfriendly. I'm not sure why anyone would book an entire week if they only need the 3 days for the weekend? Is there a system requirement for a minimum number of days when you book 3 months in advance? Seems like the new set-up will discourage folks from booking.

HighnDry: "

Canoearoo: "

Porkeater: "

Canoearoo: "You all should see what everyone is doing with the new MN state park reservation system if this makes you mad. It is ridiculous! You can now only reserve 3 months before so people are reserving the entire week then 21 one days later canceling everything expect the weekends."

Clearly I'm missing something, but what does that accomplish? "

They are doing it to save the weekend before the date of the weekend is open so if you reserve the week before the weekend you get that weekend. Then when everyone who wants to camp that weekend logs in to sign up 3 months before they see that weekend is already taken. Then 21 days later they cancel most of the week but keep the weekend spot thus cheating the system."

We used to camp a lot with our kids in the state parks. This new system would have put a serious wrench in our planning. We usually didn't book at least some of our trips until the summer was approaching. This new system sounds like it's very user-unfriendly. I'm not sure why anyone would book an entire week if they only need the 3 days for the weekend? Is there a system requirement for a minimum number of days when you book 3 months in advance? Seems like the new set-up will discourage folks from booking."

No its so you have a 5 day jump over the people that just plan on booking on the weekend dates. The timer opens 120 days before the first date, so instead of waiting 120 days before the Friday they book their site 120 days before the Monday before and drop those additional dates they are not actually going to camp.

OMGitsKa: "...No its so you have a 5 day jump over the people that just plan on booking on the weekend dates. The timer opens 120 days before the first date, so instead of waiting 120 days before the Friday they book their site 120 days before the Monday before and drop those additional dates they are not actually going to camp. "

We have seen this exact thing happen for the 4 or 5 very popular cart-in sites at Split Rock Lighthouse State Park. It's nothing new... it also happened during the time that you could reserve 1 year in advance. The only deterrent I can see is increasing the costs for cancellation AND for modifications to these specific types of reservations. Perhaps impose a penalty for modifying an existing reservation to postpone the arrival date for those reservations which were made with a departure date outside the 120 day reservation window. It might seem extreme, but perhaps charge full price for those dates delayed, effectively eliminating the incentive to employ such a plan.

The only saving grace: the reservation maximum is 14 days and modifications can't be made to a single reservation to cherrypick a number of nonconsecutive dates, so nabbing only one weekend is possible for each of these slimeball moves.

Sorry, maybe 'MN State Parks reservation loopholes' needs its own thread here.

Knoozer: "...A couple of days ago, I received a letter from the US Forest Service stating that I cannot make multiple reservations for the same entry date and I have to cancel all but one of the permits I booked or they will cancel all of them and refund my payment..."

Was this US mail or email? I have spent lots of time trying to convince a buddy to change his ways. Maybe this will do it.