BWCA Overcrowding/campsite availability issue this summer? Boundary Waters Trip Planning Forum
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MoosilaukeJohnny
member (19)member
  
06/07/2021 06:26AM  
Six weeks out from our trip, which will have my wife and me on the water for nine days (July 18th through 26th)…leaving from Gunflint lodge, up the Granite river, across Sag lake, down through Red Rock to Alpine, then out by way of Seagull lake.

My wife noted a Facebook post this morning… regarding the current difficulty in finding available campsites in the Red Rock/Alpine lake area, apparently due to the preponderance of base-camping. In other words…despite the limited number of entry permits, there is no limit to actual length of stay after entry, and folks are simply accumulating and not leaving as even more parties show up looking for campsites.

Two questions: Would this “overcrowding” issue be related to the general “post covid” exodus into the wilds - and thus has the potential to extend (and perhaps even worsen) into the Summer months? Or might this be more related to fishing activity - which would likely tend to fall off somewhat as the Summer progresses? (sincerely hoping for the latter!). Thanks!
 
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tumblehome
distinguished member(2911)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/07/2021 07:11AM  
This depends on who you ask.

My take, which has been met with opinions about camping style and etiquette is that there was a sudden influx of new campers last year due to Covid and which can be proven by the sudden increase in permit usage in 2020. This increase in usage is again high or higher this year as proven by permit availability and shown graphically by Schweady, another user to this forum.

The new generation of Covid campers are preferring to base-camp as is being discussed on this forum and other social media. The Covid campers choose not to travel into lesser used areas of the BWCA and instead flock to entry lakes and plop down for days thus creating the unavailability of campsites on easily accessed lakes.

Might I point out that not all Covid campers are doing this but the prevalence of this happening is quite remarkable. Fishing has nothing to do with it.
Tom
MoosilaukeJohnny
member (19)member
  
06/07/2021 08:43AM  
Ugh! Paradigm-shift underway perhaps?

I guess that time will tell if this "covid/post-covid re-boot" is temporary or otherwise, but my gut tells me that things will never get back to what they were prior to this, not that things would stay the same...but at least progress more slowly (and manageably).

But it does make me wonder if the system may need more regulation - like imposing limits on length of stay at a given campsite. But how to ensure this?

06/07/2021 10:14AM  
I think the shift was starting before Covid. It has just gotten exacerbated because of it.
hfpedersen
member (27)member
  
06/07/2021 10:33AM  
This trend has been felt across the entire outdoor industry. The Driftless region of WI has seen more fisherman then ever, the bicycle industry has been literally sold out of product since last year (go check out a shop, they are empty) and obviously we are seeing it with usage in the BWCA.

I have very mixed feeling about this. I am all for more ppl enjoying the outdoors and the resources we are so lucky to have in this country. On the other hand the influx of ppl new to these sports brings about the obvious issues of ignorance of the rules and proper etiquette. Will these new people stick around and become good stewards to the land, or are they simply bored and like buying gear. I'm hoping for the latter as we can always use more support for public land usage.

In in regards to the BWCA proper, I for one am totally in favor of a revamped permitting system that discourages base camping and designates entry and exit dates. Basically a check in/check out system like some parks do with hikers.

At this point all we can do is sit back and deal with the small issues like campsites as they come along. They way I'm trying to look at it is just as another challenge. Another small layer of planning that (hopefully) will make the trip a little more enjoyable.
06/07/2021 10:56AM  
If you are capable of a few portages, then plan to do so on the way and on at the way out. Based on what has been posted here and general observation by me, the plan to go in fairly deep by starting early and leaving the BW in the evening after a few portages will likely give you the best chance or a successful trip with a good supply of camp sites to enjoy.
scotttimm
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06/07/2021 11:52AM  
I've been wondering lately... with everything opening up and things going back to a somewhat "normal" - if people will be cancelling their canoe trips to instead do the more typical summer stuff like summer sports, state fairs, concerts, etc. I know that we booked up a lot of time last summer in the BWCA because it was all we could do. We cancelled our second trip this summer, too many other things going on. Newbies may not know/care that they can cancel permits. I saw a post somewhere that a traveler was on the Gunflint side around Memorial Day and didn't see anyone for three days. I tend to think the shift in numbers is temporary.
kpmc
member (6)member
  
06/07/2021 12:05PM  
I'm curious as to why base campers are viewed so negatively in this discussion? Isn't this just personal/group preference?

If a group is in the park for 4 nights, they are taking up a 4 nights worth of sites, whether that's 4 nights at one site or 1 night at 4 different sites.

What am I missing?


06/07/2021 12:12PM  
My 2 cents. I have been on 3 BWCA trips since Covid, May and Aug. 2020 and May 2021 EPs 47 and 50. I had NO problem finding campsites. I found ZERO trash or signs of abuse at any campsite or on any portages. (I check out every empty site I paddle by) There was NO difference between the 20's and teens that I could see, if anything campsites were neater with less birch tree damage. The only congestion was at the portages exiting the BWCA on Sat. afternoon and was not too bad. On the May 2021 trip I started out #2 and finished #4 on groups exiting at Ep 47, leaving 4 "new" sites open on a Sat. ( if Moray had carried my packs over the Lizz portage as I hinted I would have placed second or third)

The BWCA is ALWAYS busiest in the summer months with or without Covid. Please don't make rules that we will have to live with for years to come based on one season and speculation on what may happen this season.

If there must be a rule change I think it should be one that limits the number of permits issued to one group. ie Merlyn reserves permits for Ep 38 and Ep 47 on July 4 or 5 or 6 and Aug 1 or 15. Now I have all the bases covered just in case and once I make up my mind on when and where to go I just cancel the extra permits and get a refund on the 9 cancelled permits. I win you lose. I have a strong suspicion this is part of the problem because I thought of doing just that for my as yet unscheduled Aug. trip ( options are looking kinda limited as of now)
scotttimm
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06/07/2021 12:13PM  
kpmc: "I'm curious as to why base campers are viewed so negatively in this discussion? Isn't this just personal/group preference?

If a group is in the park for 4 nights, they are taking up a 4 nights worth of sites, whether that's 4 nights at one site or 1 night at 4 different sites.

What am I missing?"

The ire, mostly, comes from base campers near entry points who make it difficult to find a spot for an easy place to camp on your way out. In the past, it seems, more people left their site each day and traveled on - so if you were pulling into a lake in the afternoon there was a good likelihood that there were open sites. More recently, people will pull up to a site and stay all week - especially sites near the entry point. So if you are traveling, you may have to either plan for a long final day or folks have also found themselves having to exit a day early, as lake after lake was full on their way back to their vehicle.

So, just like any other topic on the BWCA and on these message boards - some people have negative feelings about base campers, some people think it's none of their business, and some people just don't care.

We'll be base camping soon for our first trip of the summer. With kids and all that goes with it, we usually push hard to go as far as we can and then kick up our feet and relax.
thistlekicker
distinguished member (471)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/07/2021 12:17PM  
kpmc: "I'm curious as to why base campers are viewed so negatively in this discussion? Isn't this just personal/group preference?


If a group is in the park for 4 nights, they are taking up a 4 nights worth of sites, whether that's 4 nights at one site or 1 night at 4 different sites.


What am I missing?



"


I don't think basecampers should be viewed in a negative light, it's more that Superior National Forest needs to adapt their management to match how people are using the wilderness. And because they can't or won't, a lot of frustration is directed at certain people who are most likely following the rules and abiding by usage quotas. It's unfortunate.

Long story short, the patterns of usage have been changing. Permit quotas were (supposedly, and this is an oversimplification) based on patterns of use at the time the BWCA wilderness was established. Back then BWCA visitors tended to travel more from site to site and not sit on a "frontcountry" lake for an extended period of time. Again, a generalization and oversimplification, but probably some truth to it. Also, the word is out that the BWCA is cheap, lightly patrolled by the managing authorities, and can be relatively easy to access.
kpmc
member (6)member
  
06/07/2021 12:32PM  
A lot of that makes sense. I can understand the frustration of not being able to find a "staging" site for your last night. I also understand the frustration surrounding the damage and mess created, especially on some of the entry point lakes, with so many newbies last summer.

Some of the suggestions to discourage base camping and limit the amount of time people can spend on one site had my mind bending trying to understand the logic.

I tend to find the hunt for a good site to be part of the excitement/adventure. I guess I land somewhere between the "none of my business" and "just don't care" camps, as long as people are leaving no trace.
L Hale
Guest Paddler
  
06/07/2021 12:42PM  
We (one canoe, two people) left Winchell Lake at about 7:00 am on Friday 6/4. We were at Brule Lake before 11:00 am. Paddled the entire lake from west to east side and found zero campsites available as people were clearly hunkered down for a few days. Did not find a site until we reached Swan -- way farther than we ever thought it would take. We figured the first Friday morning in June would give us no trouble finding a site even on busy Brule. Clearly we were wrong! Hope the rest of you travelers find better luck than we did the rest of the summer.
R00kie
member (33)member
  
06/07/2021 12:50PM  
If indeed all the " newbies or Covid campers" are taking all the campsites closest to the entry points and are breaking the LNT guidelines and messing things up for the more traditional paddlers then wouldn't it be a lot easier for the rangers to patrol these campsites and correct the negative behavior? I would like to think ignorance (even if it stems from laziness) is more likely to be corrected than straight malice. I am relatively new the BWCA experience (hence the moniker) and am all about the LNT ideology. I packed out a fair amount of rubbish from other campers last year and I do appreciate the remarks earlier on this thread about not all new paddlers are causing issues.
06/07/2021 01:20PM  
Newbies! Covid campers! Base campers! Oh the horror!!! What the hell is wrong with people! The BWCAW is open to all and how or where you camp shouldn't matter as long as you follow the rules. Being a solo or a base camper or a tripper or fisher or bird watcher, hammok or tent is not important! How many trips you have taken one or 50 is not important! Kevlar or rented aluminum canoe means nothing! You and I have the same opportunities and responsibilities while in the BWCAW as everyone else and to give any one group special privileges or limiting another group to accommodate yet another is just wrong.
Stop and consider the consequences . End of rant.
thistlekicker
distinguished member (471)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/07/2021 01:30PM  
There just aren't that many rangers out there doing patrols.
06/07/2021 01:45PM  
MoosilaukeJohnny: "Six weeks out from our trip, which will have us (my wife and myself) on the water for nine days (July 18th through 26th)…leaving from Gunflint lodge, up the Granite river, across Sag lake, down through Red Rock to Alpine, then out by way of Seagull lake.

My wife noted a facebook post this morning…regarding the current difficulty in finding available campsites in the Red Rock/Alpine lake area, apparently due to the preponderance of base-camping. In other words…despite the limited number of entry permits, there is no limit to actual length of stay after entry, and folks are simply accumulating and not leaving as even more parties show up looking for campsites.

Two questions: Would this “overcrowding” issue be related to the general “post covid” exodus into the wilds - and thus has the potential to extend (and perhaps even worsen) into the Summer months? Or might this be more related to fishing activity - which would likely tend to fall off somewhat as the Summer progresses? (sincerely hoping for the latter!). Thanks!
"


The good news is, you will have nine days. I feel like with a longer trip, you will enjoy the flexibility to adapt trip plans. No need to land the perfect campsite on night one. Just get out there as far as you desire and you should find an open site. Have a blast!
tumblehome
distinguished member(2911)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/07/2021 02:22PM  
Not sure why a few people are getting all bent out of shape. The OP asked about camping and the base-camper issue. Several people cordially wrote responses, myself included, as to the theory and fact behind the surge in base-camping.

It is a problem and many people are struggling to overcome the problem. Some people opting to exit a day early because they are unable to find a site on their last night. Those campers deserve some consideration also.

I have not written about the fact that campsites are being over-used by groups that spend several days at a time using up resources and impacting the vegetation on those same site. Not yelling. Just pointing out facts.

Tom
greywolf33
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06/07/2021 03:05PM  
Here are a few things that I believe have contributed to overcrowding in the BWCA:

1) Wilderness camping/tripping is a "socially distanced" activity. During the 15 or so months of the pandemic, going to places, particularly by airplane was unsafe and impractical. Why fly to NYC or Vegas or Hawaii and risk contracting COVID-19 on a commercial aircraft only to arrive in places where nothing is open? For most, the BWCA is a "drive-to" destination, thusly it is accessible by car and less of an infection risk.

2) The closing of the U.S./Canada border. Think of how many Americans that normally paddle Quetico, Woodland Caribou, Wabakimi, Algonquin etc. each year, who have been forced to choose alternate wilderness tripping destinations...like the BWCA.

3) COVID-19 necessitated substantial change in workplaces. For those that weren't laid off from their jobs, by and large people have been given more freedom with regard to their work location and schedule. People who in past years struggled to schedule time off for one trip to the BWCA annually are now able to do multiple trips.

4) When permits were made available to the public back in January, there was not much of an understanding of when vaccine distributions in the U.S. would be completed. Additionally the time tables of reopening cities and businesses in each of the states were unknown or at the very least unclear. I think this uncertainty caused people to plan their BWCA trip(s) earlier than they normally would. These folks are committed to taking their trips to the BWCA this summer. Those permits are going to be used.

5) In 2020, a lot of first time visitors got a taste of the awesome BWCA experience. Many enjoyed it so much that they are coming back again in 2021.

...Just my 2 cents...



tumblehome
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06/07/2021 05:36PM  
I’m a number 2.

I always paddle in Canada and do the BWCA just after the ice or during freeze up. I’m only doing the BWCA because I have too.

There are a lot of number 2 people this year. I guess I’m part of the problem :(
06/07/2021 05:47PM  
tumblehome: "I’m a number 2.

I always paddle in Canada and do the BWCA just after the ice or during freeze up. I’m only doing the BWCA because I have too.

There are a lot of number 2 people this year. I guess I’m part of the problem :("


+1
EddyTurn
distinguished member (259)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/07/2021 08:31PM  
tumblehome: "I’m a number 2.


I always paddle in Canada and do the BWCA just after the ice or during freeze up. I’m only doing the BWCA because I have too.


There are a lot of number 2 people this year. I guess I’m part of the problem :("
Same here. Last year had to move my trips to Adirondacks so-called wilderness and had a "Crocodile Dundee in Manhattan" experience. Quite literally - there were trucks driving behind my campsite.
tumblehome
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06/07/2021 09:38PM  
EddyTurn: "
tumblehome: "I’m a number 2.



I always paddle in Canada and do the BWCA just after the ice or during freeze up. I’m only doing the BWCA because I have too.



There are a lot of number 2 people this year. I guess I’m part of the problem :("
Same here. Last year had to move my trips to Adirondacks so-called wilderness and had a "Crocodile Dundee in Manhattan" experience. Quite literally - there were trucks driving behind my campsite."


I kid you not, I’ve had numerous nightmares about being deep in the wilderness only to stumble on a paved road with cars. Really messes me up.
Tom
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(14414)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
  
06/07/2021 10:32PM  
MoosilaukeJohnny: " In other words…despite the limited number of entry permits, there is no limit to actual length of stay after entry, and folks are simply accumulating and not leaving as even more parties show up looking for campsites.
"


The rules have always stated that you can only camp up to 14 consecutive days at one site. Then you need to leave the BWCA or find another campsite.
MoosilaukeJohnny
member (19)member
  
06/08/2021 05:40AM  
Thanks for all of the thoughtful (and thought provoking) replies and perspectives. I do have a bit of a backstory in this neck of the woods…having been a naturalist/canoe-guide back in 1976, working for the Kerfoots out of Gunflint Lodge.

Things were a bit different back then…and it was not uncommon, upon making the left turn after coming out of the Granite, to look down Sag and not see another boat - and while there were fewer established campsites in those days, many of these would be available well into the afternoons.

But that was then. Life intervened, and although I continued to enjoy paddling closer to my home in Vermont, including several trips down the Allagash and St. John’s rivers…I did not return to the BWCA until just two years ago, at which time it became clear that another trip up the Granite was in the cards.

At any rate, while I can see how campsites closer to entry points might be popular with base campers…my larger concern is that after a given day of paddling, my wife and myself, while in decent physical condition for our ages (mid-sixties) might nonetheless find ourselves quite ready to find a campsite, but may instead, finding them taken, need to push onward for an indeterminate amount of time…perhaps well into an evening. And what if all of the campsites are taken? What then? I, for one, would not hesitate, if our personal safety were at risk, to establish a camp on a non-designated site, but I sincerely hope that this would never happen!
06/08/2021 07:36AM  
tumblehome: "I’m a number 2.


I always paddle in Canada and do the BWCA just after the ice or during freeze up. I’m only doing the BWCA because I have too.


There are a lot of number 2 people this year. I guess I’m part of the problem :("


+1

We have made many trips into Quetico but my first few trips were a combo, started on Moose Lake and stayed the night in the B-dub, then into the Q for a few days. This year for obvious reasons we went in EP #14 and did the 5 portages (6 really counting the long portage with beaver pond in the middle before Shell) and got to Lynx. We are not yearly visitors so this was quite the push for us. Lynx had 2 open campsites when we got there on Sat 3pm. By Monday afternoon we had the lake to ourselves until Thursday. I do know from reading here that this is a popular entry point and Shell was packed on our way out. Strange to me really, you do the massive hard portage to get into Shell, stay a while with at least 5 other camps on this lake when you can take a very short, 11 rod (I think) portage into Lynx.

Oh well, to each their own. Planning for this trip took the turn when they closed the border last year but reading trip reports, items on the Trip Planning messageboard, talking with the outfitter really let us know what we were about to encounter. Busy, yes. But it was still the B-Dub, baby!!!
MikeinMpls
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06/08/2021 09:13AM  
Canoe camping in the BWCA is changing. When I started tripping in the late 70s many, me included, ventured in and portaged and moved to different sites every day or every other day. Now many are instead choosing to base camp at the lakes near entry points. As I see it, these sites on entry point (or near entry point) lakes are becoming de facto "walk-in" campsites. For relatively little effort, a group can have a "wilderness" experience that requires little or no portaging… and the ability to bring in creature comforts that would otherwise be impractical on a longer trip, moving sites each day. I think this style of tripping rubs some people the wrong way, especially those who are used to doing things the way they used to be done, or having a "staging lake" near the EP for convenient take-out. We've taken to more base camping, too, though on interior lakes to get away from the crowds as best we can. I've found the lakes near EPs that have more base-campers tend to be noisier.

The times are changing.

Mike
mschi772
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06/08/2021 09:13AM  
Is the BWCAW overcrowded by visitors? I *highly* doubt it.

Are specific areas of the BWCAW possibly being overused and overcrowded by visitors? Almost definitely.
Kalvan
member (40)member
  
06/08/2021 09:59AM  
Just completed loop from Clearwater to Pine and back through the Pike lakes. We had no issues finding campsites as many were open.
SummerSkin
distinguished member (207)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/08/2021 10:12AM  
Last week, we went into Fraser through Moose Lake EP. As we typically do, we wanted to find a campsite close to our exit location for the last night or two, which meant staying Ensign.

Our experience on Ensign was...not pleasant. There are 38 campsites by my count on that lake, and almost every one of them was taken by very large base camping groups. A couple of 1- and 2-stars remained, and we raced other traveling groups to secure one of those. (By the way, what is up with Ensign base campers sitting at their campsites all day next to the water like mannequins? Lol.)

The first night a group of 8 younger guys paddled 4 canoes right in front of our campsite to fish their "honey hole." No problem...it's not our lake. But these guys set up shop for 3+ hours, well into dark, and they were LOUD. Coarse language, crude jokes, loud voices...and best of all, two of them flipped their canoe in completely flat water, while just sitting there with anchors down doing slip bobber fishing. It totally ruined the experience. It was like listening to a college frat party in the Boundary Waters.

The next day we were fishing in that spot. These guys rolled right back up and said "Care if we slip in kind of close to you?" We reluctantly told them to go ahead but to keep their distance. They set their canoe up about 20 feet from ours and started fishing again. We asked for more space, they backed up 10 feet. We just gave up and went back to camp.

Oh, and they were fishing so long because, according to them, "There are no walleye limits in the Boundary Waters."

I understand that you have to expect some crowding and adjust your expectations and plans based upon that. The campsite you want might be taken. Your fishing spot might be occupied. The immaculate wilderness view you wanted will likely include a canoe or two, or three. There are more people coming in to experience the wilderness which belongs to all of us, and that should be a beneficial thing overall.

But this was a totally different experience. With how many people were on the lake, it felt like a summer camp or a lake resort. And with these loud guys fishing in front of our campsite, it just ruined the experience completely. We all agreed that from now on it's Quetico or bust. Canada will get our money.
06/08/2021 10:32AM  
My take is that it is people trying to get out bc of Covid and then also Canada being closed making BWCA more popular than before. And yes lots of the new people base camp on entry lakes bc it is easier. I don't blame anyone for it. I think everyone should be aware and plan accordingly. I went to Brule during peak time and knew it would be hard to find a site so we planned on paddling quite a bit and that is exactly what happened. If you are planning on camping on an entry lake on your way out then you should be prepared to not find a site on that lake. I also think this will get better each upcoming year as the covid people get it out of their system and the border opens.
06/08/2021 10:36AM  
tumblehome: "I’m a number 2.


I always paddle in Canada and do the BWCA just after the ice or during freeze up. I’m only doing the BWCA because I have too.


There are a lot of number 2 people this year. I guess I’m part of the problem :("


Me too. This year, I am not going north for the first time in over 20 years, and I am okay with that. Looking forward to getting back into Canada.
hypotomooseman
member (6)member
  
06/08/2021 11:32AM  
This will be my first time canoeing in the BWCA but have previous experience canoeing in other places. While I would love to have planned a 7 day adventure where we move each day I'm not sure I feel confident with my crew (kids 6 & 3) holding up through that. Right now we're planning to base camp, but who knows maybe we'll move! Just hoping to enjoy some time outdoors away from normal every day life.

As for the discussion around COVID, I'm not sure I would have planned the trip with a 3 year old if Covid hadn't happened, maybe would have waited a year or two. But for me it was a motivator to get out and do what we can, if that means "just base camping" thats OK by me.

I'm very interested to see how easy or hard it will be to find a good camping location and will report back after our trip starting June 23rd!
eagleriverwalleye
member (32)member
  
06/08/2021 12:13PM  
We went in May 23 at Moose and came out on the 29th at Ensign. We figured that going in on a Sunday the week before Memorial Day would afford us some elbow room before the summer rush. We figured wrong, and had difficulty finding campsites on both the South Arm and in the Fraser/Thomas area. It was disheartening that these two areas relatively deep in were so busy, and I have to assume that there is basecampjng there too, and not just near the entry points. That's fine, but the joy of the campsite-to-campsite loop suffers when you get campsite angst every day starting around Noon-1pm. Quetico next year for me.
06/08/2021 09:27PM  
So to find a campsite everyone says get an early start, go in several lakes, start looking for a site early.

If you find a site early in the afternoon in a crowded area, you might not be going in as far as you planned, which could be a problem if you're doing a loop with limited vacation time. Or you keep going to your planned lake and hope it's not full. Go with your gut feeling and hope for the best. No stress in that.
casualbriday
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06/09/2021 04:51AM  
MoosilaukeJohnny:
At any rate, while I can see how campsites closer to entry points might be popular with base campers…my larger concern is that after a given day of paddling, my wife and myself, while in decent physical condition for our ages (mid-sixties) might nonetheless find ourselves quite ready to find a campsite, but may instead, finding them taken, need to push onward for an indeterminate amount of time…perhaps well into an evening. And what if all of the campsites are taken? What then? I, for one, would not hesitate, if our personal safety were at risk, to establish a camp on a non-designated site, but I sincerely hope that this would never happen!"


On my last trip (20...17, I think), we passed a guy at the Ada Creek portage who was on a long solo who was in that situation. We were planning to layover on Sawbill for a day to fish before getting an early start on the way home, he was going to layover before meeting his resupply. After we hit the water, we discussed and decided as a group to push past the first few open sites so he wouldn't have to, because worst case scenario, we would have to go with the flow and head over to another lake, or pay for a site at sawbill for 2 nights and self permit to fish the next day.
06/09/2021 03:18PM  
How do you tell a base camper from a tripper when they are at a camp site? Is it by the tent? Tarp? Canoe? What if they are day permit holders with a tarp up for the sun or fishers from another site stopping for a shore lunch?
Maybe each type of visitor should be color coded or have a designated number on their back or something to identify them so we can be sure to bitch about the right group that are taking up "OUR" spot.
Lawnchair107
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06/09/2021 04:42PM  
merlyn: "How do you tell a base camper from a tripper when they are at a camp site? Is it by the tent? Tarp? Canoe? What if they are day permit holders with a tarp up for the sun or fishers from another site stopping for a shore lunch?
Maybe each type of visitor should be color coded or have a designated number on their back or something to identify them so we can be sure to bitch about the right group that are taking up "OUR" spot."


If nothing else, this teaches us all to plan for the worst, and hope for the best. I for one, am just happy to be able to head north into the BWCA each year. Our group traditionally tends to go deep day 1 busting our asses off- almost like the right-of-passage, base camp, fish hard, being able to explore the lake we’re on, and head out. We travel to the BWCA to explore its rich fisheries. To each their own.
thegildedgopher
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06/11/2021 07:10PM  
It was very much not over crowded this past week on sag or Clearwater. LOTS of empty sites and less traffic than same time last year. I know that doesn’t fit the panic narrative about overcrowding but this was my first-hand experience. Permit scarcity doesn’t always mean site scarcity, lots of permits not being used.
06/11/2021 07:35PM  
cowdoc: "I think the shift was starting before Covid. It has just gotten exacerbated because of it."

One can occupy a campsite for up to 14 days in the boundary waters. That rule has been around for years.
06/11/2021 08:52PM  
egknuti: "
cowdoc: "I think the shift was starting before Covid. It has just gotten exacerbated because of it."

One can occupy a campsite for up to 14 days in the boundary waters. That rule has been around for years. "


I'm well aware of that rule. I don't think many people base camp for 14 days...most maybe 5, 7, maybe 10. Many times its near entry points and I think that trend has been growing the past few years. They like camping in the BW, but not "tripping" so much and now I think that trend has grown with the influx of new campers. Whats your point?
analyzer
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06/12/2021 12:35AM  
I've heard that the Quetico typically has about 25,000 visitors, and 90% of those are from the United States. So I was thinking, that alone adds 22,500 visitors to the BWCA. However, those visitors would be fairly evenly dispersed throughout the boundary waters.

Recently I started thinking about entries like Moose Lake, and how the Canadian closure might affect demand for campsites. I would think when they set quota's for entries like Moose Lake, and Saganaga, they anticipate a certain percentage of those entries, are going to push up into Canada, and stay their first night there. So maybe they figure 7 of the 17 entries on Sag will go to Canada, and 10 of the 27 moose lake entries will do the same. Except now, there is enough demand to sell out those entry permits, but NONE are going to Canada.

I don't know what percent of Moose Lake entries normally go to Canada, but I bet it's probably 25% at least. And now none of those entries are Canada bound, so it adds alot of demand for campsites in Knife, Ensign, etc.

If the forest service truly counts on a certain percentage going to canada, and alleviating pressure in the area, they should really reduce the number of available permits, in years in which the Canadian border is closed.

I don't really know which entry points get used the most to enter the Quetico, but maybe there is a correlation between those entry points, and overcrowding this year, as there are too many entry permits, for the available campsites on the american side.
whyzata
senior member (51)senior membersenior member
  
06/12/2021 04:31AM  
Last year on Lake one I snagged the 1st site I came across for 1 night before heading to Lakes 4 and beyond. One group passed my camp towing a canoe loaded with all their gear. Three coolers, lawn chairs, tents, hammocks, screen tents, etc. They never left Lake One and set up for a week. I passed 3 other sites on Lake one the next day who were all base camping. Did not pass an empty site on Lakes One and two and three. After 3 portages I finally came across some empty sites. This was in early September and on a Monday.
06/12/2021 06:28AM  
I for one kind of like how majority start on the first lake :) makes me feel better about going a few in and having it to myself.
billconner
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06/12/2021 06:39AM  
analyzer: "I've heard that the Quetico typically has about 25,000 visitors, and 90% of those are from the United States. So I was thinking, that alone adds 22,500 visitors to the BWCA. However, those visitors would be fairly evenly dispersed throughout the boundary waters.


Recently I started thinking about entries like Moose Lake, and how the Canadian closure might affect demand for campsites. I would think when they set quota's for entries like Moose Lake, and Saganaga, they anticipate a certain percentage of those entries, are going to push up into Canada, and stay their first night there. So maybe they figure 7 of the 17 entries on Sag will go to Canada, and 10 of the 27 moose lake entries will do the same. Except now, there is enough demand to sell out those entry permits, but NONE are going to Canada.


I don't know what percent of Moose Lake entries normally go to Canada, but I bet it's probably 25% at least. And now none of those entries are Canada bound, so it adds alot of demand for campsites in Knife, Ensign, etc.


If the forest service truly counts on a certain percentage going to canada, and alleviating pressure in the area, they should really reduce the number of available permits, in years in which the Canadian border is closed.


I don't really know which entry points get used the most to enter the Quetico, but maybe there is a correlation between those entry points, and overcrowding this year, as there are too many entry permits, for the available campsites on the american side."


I'd suggest very few Canada bound trippers use BWCA overnight permits. Many tow, so no permit at all, or day paddle.
analyzer
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06/12/2021 08:25AM  
billconner: "
analyzer: "I've heard that the Quetico typically has about 25,000 visitors, and 90% of those are from the United States. So I was thinking, that alone adds 22,500 visitors to the BWCA. However, those visitors would be fairly evenly dispersed throughout the boundary waters.



Recently I started thinking about entries like Moose Lake, and how the Canadian closure might affect demand for campsites. I would think when they set quota's for entries like Moose Lake, and Saganaga, they anticipate a certain percentage of those entries, are going to push up into Canada, and stay their first night there. So maybe they figure 7 of the 17 entries on Sag will go to Canada, and 10 of the 27 moose lake entries will do the same. Except now, there is enough demand to sell out those entry permits, but NONE are going to Canada.



I don't know what percent of Moose Lake entries normally go to Canada, but I bet it's probably 25% at least. And now none of those entries are Canada bound, so it adds alot of demand for campsites in Knife, Ensign, etc.



If the forest service truly counts on a certain percentage going to canada, and alleviating pressure in the area, they should really reduce the number of available permits, in years in which the Canadian border is closed.



I don't really know which entry points get used the most to enter the Quetico, but maybe there is a correlation between those entry points, and overcrowding this year, as there are too many entry permits, for the available campsites on the american side."



I'd suggest very few Canada bound trippers use BWCA overnight permits. Many tow, so no permit at all, or day paddle."
oh. Ok. How do you pull a day use permit for the exit day? You can't get them a week in advance.
bottomtothetap
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06/12/2021 10:15AM  
analyzer: "I've heard that the Quetico typically has about 25,000 visitors, and 90% of those are from the United States. So I was thinking, that alone adds 22,500 visitors to the BWCA. However, those visitors would be fairly evenly dispersed throughout the boundary waters.


Recently I started thinking about entries like Moose Lake, and how the Canadian closure might affect demand for campsites. I would think when they set quota's for entries like Moose Lake, and Saganaga, they anticipate a certain percentage of those entries, are going to push up into Canada, and stay their first night there. So maybe they figure 7 of the 17 entries on Sag will go to Canada, and 10 of the 27 moose lake entries will do the same. Except now, there is enough demand to sell out those entry permits, but NONE are going to Canada.


I don't know what percent of Moose Lake entries normally go to Canada, but I bet it's probably 25% at least. And now none of those entries are Canada bound, so it adds alot of demand for campsites in Knife, Ensign, etc.


If the forest service truly counts on a certain percentage going to canada, and alleviating pressure in the area, they should really reduce the number of available permits, in years in which the Canadian border is closed.


I don't really know which entry points get used the most to enter the Quetico, but maybe there is a correlation between those entry points, and overcrowding this year, as there are too many entry permits, for the available campsites on the american side."


No wonder you're known as "analyzer" ! :)
06/12/2021 12:14PM  
You can grab a paper permit at the EPs, fill it out as a day use permit for the date you want and submit it when you exit.
06/12/2021 12:50PM  
HighnDry: "You can grab a paper permit at the EPs, fill it out as a day use permit for the date you want and submit it when you exit."


You could do this but it isn't legit and could cost ya. Supposed to be filled out and placed in the box before getting on the water.
06/12/2021 02:29PM  
That's what I meant to say. On the other hand, could you get an outfitter to submit that for you on your way out?...

I only recall using this once when a Kawishiwi ranger told me that the proper way to transit Moose Lake to PP on my way to Quetico was to do a day permit for entry/exit....I could be wrong though....
mjmkjun
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06/12/2021 05:52PM  
It seems to me that there's a lot of stress being felt and projected. Relax. Don't let frustrating individual posts on popular social media pages affect your 'vacation' in a negative manner. You got this! Paddle further. Be happy. Enjoy the adventure.
billconner
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06/12/2021 06:31PM  
x2jmorris: "
HighnDry: "You can grab a paper permit at the EPs, fill it out as a day use permit for the date you want and submit it when you exit."



You could do this but it isn't legit and could cost ya. Supposed to be filled out and placed in the box before getting on the water. "


Is that a change in last 5 or so years? I know just because they told me at ranger station it was ok, it may never have been.
06/18/2021 12:04PM  
MoosilaukeJohnny: "Six weeks out from our trip, which will have us (my wife and myself) on the water for nine days (July 18th through 26th)…leaving from Gunflint lodge, up the Granite river, across Sag lake, down through Red Rock to Alpine, then out by way of Seagull lake.

My wife noted a facebook post this morning…regarding the current difficulty in finding available campsites in the Red Rock/Alpine lake area, apparently due to the preponderance of base-camping. In other words…despite the limited number of entry permits, there is no limit to actual length of stay after entry, and folks are simply accumulating and not leaving as even more parties show up looking for campsites.

Two questions: Would this “overcrowding” issue be related to the general “post covid” exodus into the wilds - and thus has the potential to extend (and perhaps even worsen) into the Summer months? Or might this be more related to fishing activity - which would likely tend to fall off somewhat as the Summer progresses? (sincerely hoping for the latter!). Thanks!
"


Would love to hear how this route goes. I really want to do this route next year. I have never done the Granite river but figure at most that is a 3 or 4 day trip and I should have a week or more.
06/18/2021 12:21PM  
Wow so much to digest here!

Somewhere I have a draft of a long post I was going to make regarding my thoughts on basecamping but decided to not post it. It was just getting too long winded as I was just letting my mind wonder so it was a bit all over the place.

Like others, I was introduced to the BWCA with the idea that you move around each day, checking out different lakes and campsites. As a result I know I am biased to that approach. At the same time, I can certainly appreciate an occasional layover day. Personally I don't see the appeal of base camping for multiple days on one site, but understand that others may enjoy this.

I agree that everyone should be free to enjoy the BWCA in there own way, as long as they are not overly impacting the experiences of others. I would say that merely occupying a site for several days in a row really isn't a problem, but being loud, rude, and not following basic leave-no-trace is where I have a problem.

My perspective is evolving as I have begun leading Boy Scouts groups and introducing this next generation to the BWCA. It is when I am planning these trips I feel a bit of concern about campsite availability. If it was just me it no big deal as I am fine going an extra portage or three. However, I really want the best experience possible for those I am leading. When planning I try as best I can to avoid a situation where we have a group of tired kids frustrated going by occupied site after occupied site. The hard part of the trip is on the way out, knowing we want to find a site that is within a few hours of the exit point.

I ran into some of this when I took my own son for the first time. We went in on Sawbill and had planned to stay on Afton. We were on Afton well before noon, and every site was taken and it wasn't hard to see that everyone was not moving. Huge coolers, lawn chairs, tables, multi-burning camp stoves, etc. after paddling the up and down the length of the lake we ended up taking the Portage to Kelso, where we thankfully found an open site.

One thought I have had is that a certain number of sites on larger lakes at or within a portage of entry point lakes be designated as "travel sites" that require people to vacant by noon (with possible exceptions for extreme weather conditions). There would still be plenty of sites for basecampers but at least those traveling through would have a chance of getting a site so they could exit the next day.

Not sure how practical this would be in practice, especially with identifying these sites, communicating the rules, and enforcement of said rules. But if there was something like this in place it might take some of the stress off of trip planning.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
06/18/2021 12:49PM  
billconner: "
x2jmorris: "
HighnDry: "You can grab a paper permit at the EPs, fill it out as a day use permit for the date you want and submit it when you exit."




You could do this but it isn't legit and could cost ya. Supposed to be filled out and placed in the box before getting on the water. "



Is that a change in last 5 or so years? I know just because they told me at ranger station it was ok, it may never have been."


I am looking at a copy of one. I swear I was told that but if I read it correctly and if the one I am reading is up to date.

"Please fill out the information below, remove the "visitor copy" and keep it with you at all times. Leave the "official use copy" in the drop box OR return it to a Superior National Forest office."

How that reads to me is you can actually take an extra and fill it out. I'd argue that one all day billconner ;)
Michwall2
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06/18/2021 01:54PM  
x2jmorris: "
billconner: "
x2jmorris: "
HighnDry: "You can grab a paper permit at the EPs, fill it out as a day use permit for the date you want and submit it when you exit."




You could do this but it isn't legit and could cost ya. Supposed to be filled out and placed in the box before getting on the water. "




Is that a change in last 5 or so years? I know just because they told me at ranger station it was ok, it may never have been."



I am looking at a copy of one. I swear I was told that but if I read it correctly and if the one I am reading is up to date.


"Please fill out the information below, remove the "visitor copy" and keep it with you at all times. Leave the "official use copy" in the drop box OR return it to a Superior National Forest office."


How that reads to me is you can actually take an extra and fill it out. I'd argue that one all day billconner ;)"


I thought that one of the purposes of the permits (besides restricting overnight usage via the quota) was the ability to track who is in a particular area if there should be a natural disaster. If you have the "official use" copy with you, they could overlook your presence on a day trip and think everyone (they know of) was out when you could be in a bind.
tumblehome
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06/18/2021 02:58PM  
x2jmorris: "
HighnDry: "You can grab a paper permit at the EPs, fill it out as a day use permit for the date you want and submit it when you exit."



You could do this but it isn't legit and could cost ya. Supposed to be filled out and placed in the box before getting on the water. "


You can fill out the day use permit and stuff it in the box or drop it off at a ranger station. It does not need to be filled out and left in the box before you head in.

The proper protocol for re-entry into the US from Canada would be to have the blank permit in your possession and fill it out on your exit day.

Tom
tumblehome
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06/18/2021 03:01PM  
I am pleased to say that I returned from a trip that started and ended at Round lake (Brant Lake entry). Headed west to some interior lakes and 90% of the campsites were empty. Absolutely no issue whatsoever finding sites. I was surprised and relieved. I also encountered very few people and mostly just a few groups traveling. It felt very empty. But I worked to get off the beaten path.

Spending much time contemplating the wilderness I concluded that camping on Brule, Sawbill, Ensign, Lake One and a handful of others will surely not provide solitude with the new age of base camping. Heading to places that require effort will surely find the solitude you seek.
Tom
JWilder
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06/18/2021 05:17PM  
tumblehome: "I am pleased to say that I returned from a trip that started and ended at Round lake (Brant Lake entry). Headed west to some interior lakes and 90% of the campsites were empty. Absolutely no issue whatsoever finding sites. I was surprised and relieved. I also encountered very few people and mostly just a few groups traveling. It felt very empty. But I worked to get off the beaten path.


Spending much time contemplating the wilderness I concluded that camping on Brule, Sawbill, Ensign, Lake One and a handful of others will surely not provide solitude with the new age of base camping. Heading to places that require effort will surely find the solitude you seek.
Tom
"


I like this post. I like it very much:)

Thanks, JW
06/18/2021 06:25PM  
tumblehome: "I am pleased to say that I returned from a trip that started and ended at Round lake (Brant Lake entry). Headed west to some interior lakes and 90% of the campsites were empty. Absolutely no issue whatsoever finding sites. I was surprised and relieved. I also encountered very few people and mostly just a few groups traveling. It felt very empty. But I worked to get off the beaten path.
"

Also worth mentioning that Brant and Missing Link still have a decent amount of permits available, relatively speaking.
tumblehome
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06/18/2021 08:46PM  
I now know why those permits are available. My exit was through tuscarora lake which requires a 425 rod Portage followed by a quick 142 rod Portage. That alone stops most people. Tuscarora only had one other group that I saw.
Tom
straighthairedcurly
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06/19/2021 08:33PM  
Just returned from 4 days (weekdays) doing Sawbill-Cherokee-N/S Temperance-Burnt-Smoke loop. On our Tuesday entry, most Sawbill sites were open and we had the south end of Cherokee to ourselves, though a few other groups came through and camped farther north. North Temperance was full at midday on Wednesday and South Temperance only had one site open at 1pm which we got. We ended up sharing when a pair came through at 6:30pm after being skunked on N. Temperance. On Thursday, sites on Weird and south were open. We stopped before Kelly so don't know the status there. Too windy on our paddle out on Friday to check the sites on Burnt or Smoke, but lots of people were paddling in that day to those lakes by mid morning so guessing they would be full by early afternoon.
06/20/2021 08:11AM  
Just got in from a week long trip to Ensign/Disappointment Lakes area. Surprisingly Ensign was not busy at all and there were numerous sites available on the lake. Unfortunately we had to pack up as we had bear issues on Day 3 despite obsessing over keeping a clean camp. Disappointment Lake was pretty much full from what we saw especially sites on the west end of lake close to the Snowbank/Parent Lake portages.
06/20/2021 09:16PM  
walleyejunky: "Just got in from a week long trip to Ensign/Disappointment Lakes area. Surprisingly Ensign was not busy at all and there were numerous sites available on the lake. Unfortunately we had to pack up as we had bear issues on Day 3 despite obsessing over keeping a clean camp. Disappointment Lake was pretty much full from what we saw especially sites on the west end of lake close to the Snowbank/Parent Lake portages."


We were just up to that area last week also. On Monday we left the parking lot before 6:30, crossed Snowbank, went up the western side of Dissapointment. We did not search out sites, but the ones we did see were full although I didn't notice if people were packing up or not, we just wanted to get through. The sites on Ahsub were open. Only one group of 5 guys passed us going in to Thomas. On the Cattyman - Jordan portage 2 groups were coming out, 1 from Ima, 1 from Jordan. We took the Just abandoned Jordan site (we had decided beforehand we would take the first open site we found after 11:00).

Tues we day tripped to Ima. We passed only a few campsites in the NW area (fishing the islands) which were full, but did not go to the E or S side which is where most of the sites are. I know there were many large groups entering Ima that day.

Wednesday we day tripped over to Ensign. We stayed on the eastern lobe. The 2 sites east side of the portage were open, but we saw 6 of 9 others full.

Jordan was full that night. Several large groups went thru Jordan late afternoon heading to Ima- after 5:00. Groups of 4 canoes, 3 canoes with 9 people.

We were anticipating strong winds on Snowbank Friday, so decided to move to Dissapointment Thursday. We left Jordan early morning and didn't see anyone going either in or out till we hit Dissapointment. The site just east of the portage was open. Everything else was full. It didn't look like anyone was leaving either. So we had no choice but to try Parent. which was also full. So we had to leave a day early. Not what we planned on.

I must say we saw only 1 solo, and only a few 2 or 4 people groups. There were a lot of canoes with 3 people in them - as in 3 adults, not 2 adults with 1 kid. I've never seen so many 7-9 people groups before. I know that is a busy area but wow.


06/21/2021 11:13AM  
Just came out yesterday. No real surprises. Lakes near the entry were busy but lakes further in, or requiring difficult portages to get to, were not. Even over the weekend.

analyzer
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06/26/2021 09:56PM  
June 19th-June 24th Ensign, Ima, Thomas, Frazier, Kek, Vera counterclockwise loop. Day 1, ensign was near full. Lots of traffic at the portages. We were going to stay on Jordan (full), had targeted sites on Ima (full), targeted site on Hatchet was even full. We took the other one on hatchet. 1 of 3 sites on Sagus off Frazier was full on Tuesday. 2 of 3 sites were taken on Wisini on Wed. had 3 groups come to our island site on Kek. We left kek at 730 am on Thursday and had 3 groups at every portage thru Vera. 4 of 5 sites on Vera were full. Only the western most campsite, which wouldn't fit our oversize tent, was available. A couple of the ensign campsites were available near the vera portage, but all of the campsites through the narrow section on the south half of the lake were taken. It was a very very busy loop.
MarkLa
Guest Paddler
  
06/30/2021 09:47PM  
I wonder if base camping begets more base camping. Once you start a trip and get a sense that you will have trouble finding sites, maybe you bail on your loop plan and just find a good spot to stay put in an effort to manage the camp space shortage, which just compounds the impacts of long term base camping. We're putting in on sag in a few weeks - sounds interesting.
MikeinMpls
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07/01/2021 10:17AM  
MarkLa: "I wonder if base camping begets more base camping. Once you start a trip and get a sense that you will have trouble finding sites, maybe you bail on your loop plan and just find a good spot to stay put in an effort to manage the camp space shortage, which just compounds the impacts of long term base camping. We're putting in on sag in a few weeks - sounds interesting.
"


This has been the case for us the last couple of years. It's so crowded. Once we find a nice site we take it, then spend the rest of the week talking ourselves into why staying there all week is a good idea.

Mike
07/01/2021 06:58PM  
Cricket67: "Wow so much to digest here!

One thought I have had is that a certain number of sites on larger lakes at or within a portage of entry point lakes be designated as "travel sites" that require people to vacant by noon (with possible exceptions for extreme weather conditions). There would still be plenty of sites for basecampers but at least those traveling through would have a chance of getting a site so they could exit the next day.


Not sure how practical this would be in practice, especially with identifying these sites, communicating the rules, and enforcement of said rules. But if there was something like this in place it might take some of the stress off of trip planning.


Anyway, just my 2 cents. "


I have thought the same thing. Getting it to work would be the hard part.
07/05/2021 07:44AM  
Just came out yesterday. I entered Indian Sioux North and stayed on Shell Lake. I got one of the best sites. I moved on to Slim, Eugene, Finger, Gebe, and Oyster. I stayed at all of the best sites on each of those lakes. In fact, I had Gebe all to myself for the entire day and night I was there. I had no problem finding a campsite.
schweady
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07/05/2021 09:11AM  
egknuti: "Just came out yesterday. I entered Indian Sioux North and stayed on Shell Lake. I got one of the best sites. I moved on to Slim, Eugene, Finger, Gebe, and Oyster. I stayed at all of the best sites on each of those lakes. In fact, I had Gebe all to myself for the entire day and night I was there. I had no problem finding a campsite. "

Sounds like a great trip. The week or so around the 4th typically sees a slight dip in permit usage... a large percentage of folks are involved with their traditional annual gatherings. That said, BWCAW crowds over the past couple of summers have been anything but typical.
07/05/2021 04:11PM  
schweady: "
egknuti: "Just came out yesterday. I entered Indian Sioux North and stayed on Shell Lake. I got one of the best sites. I moved on to Slim, Eugene, Finger, Gebe, and Oyster. I stayed at all of the best sites on each of those lakes. In fact, I had Gebe all to myself for the entire day and night I was there. I had no problem finding a campsite. "

Sounds like a great trip. The week or so around the 4th typically sees a slight dip in permit usage... a large percentage of folks are involved with their traditional annual gatherings. That said, BWCAW crowds over the past couple of summers have been anything but typical.
"

I entered on the 20th and the most people I saw was heading out on the 3rd. Once I reached Nina Moose River, it was a parade of people. I got going early and I was looking for a site early. Solitude can be found-if that’s what you’re searching for.
 
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