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joewildlife
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06/14/2021 03:33PM  
Not sure if this is the place to put it, but I wouldn't recommend staying at Agnes off EP16.

Came out from LLC on Friday and one party had a determined bear clean out their food pack which was hung. Bear got it down, bear ate all their food despite the yelling and harassment from the campers.

Another party on Agnes said they had a bear trying to haul off their food pack when they returned to camp, and their dog scared it off. They said it was a light colored black bear. Probably a different one.

On Crooked, a group told me that had a bear walk through their site on the west side of Thursday bay, too.

Joe
 
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airmorse
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06/14/2021 04:57PM  
And that is what Bear spray is for.
schweady
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06/14/2021 05:23PM  
This is so maddening. I want to get up to LLC one more time in my life, but not sure these aging bones have the strength to make it any more in one day from the Moose River North entry. Lately, I have been happy to make it to Agnes' north peninsula, even after an early launch. And stopping short on Nina Moose on one occasion, mostly due to the heat but also due to these continual nuisance bear reports. Such a wonderful area and great fishing. Perhaps a tow to LLC is in my future...
joewildlife
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06/14/2021 06:00PM  
Go for the tow! I spent a night or two on LLC 9 years ago on my first BWCA trip. Didn't catch many fish at all. This time, I had it figured out and the fishing is pretty dang good on LLC!!
Trg
Guest Paddler
  
06/20/2021 12:41AM  
Entered EP 16 on Monday 14 June and pushed up to LLC. Checked out 10 camp sites in Boulder Bay and all those in and around Tiger Bay…all were occupied. So we proceeded to take the portages back to Agnes by the ranger cabin and the longer portage into Agnes from the Boulder River. Stayed at the first camp site off the portage. Stayed 3 nights at that camp sight. Day 2 and day 3 we had a big black bear enter the camp during the day (morning). Got far to close for my taste …pretty quiet before we saw him coming down the trail (15 - 20 steps). Was able to scare him off both times however he did get into the food of the camp site next over). We keep a clean camp sight and alway hung out barrel when not eating. Cleaned fish and ate fish away from the camp sites. We moved after he got into the neighbors’ food. Had bear spray but didn’t have to use it. Just be cautious…saw some big groups going in so keep a clean camp, hang your food in a bear barrel or something similar and have spray available.

On my way home after coming out today…this was my 7th trip and first bear encounter…stories to tell when I get home. Safe travels and stay safe.
06/20/2021 08:07AM  
just got back from a week long trip out of Moose Lake. First 3 days we stayed on Ensign but had to move because we had a bear in camp on Monday morning while out fishing. We also keep a clean camp but they are basically "circus bears" in the BWCA. Pretty sure bears on Ensign just make the rounds from camp to camp.
Beast388
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06/21/2021 11:50AM  
Trg: "So we proceeded to take the portages back to Agnes by the ranger cabin and the longer portage into Agnes from the Boulder River. Stayed at the first camp site off the portage. "


After entering Agnes from the 115 rod portage from the Boulder River, did you stay in the first campsite to the right or the left?

On Friday morning (6-18), we entered Agnes from that portage....and after determining that Agnes was not crossable due to the wind & whitecaps, we stayed in the first site to the right. We could get to that one while being sorta protected from the ugly swells and waves.

Our original plan was to push to Nina-Moose due to the bear problems on Agnes, but mother nature had other ideas. We kept the food hung and kept the cleanest camp we could. Luckily, we had no issues.

On our way in on 6-12, we passed a couple of guys heading out....they had just completed the last portage before entering Agnes if you're heading north. They told us that there was a bear on the portage and that they scared it away the best they could. Ugh.

We modified our usual portage routine....and sent two guys across with the food packs and a paddle each. One guy stayed and guarded the food while the other three portaged the rest of the gear and canoes. That was a new experience.

Trgobin
member (13)member
  
06/21/2021 05:22PM  
We stayed at the first one on the right (I think it was camp site 1804 in paddle planner)
mpswid0
member (45)member
  
06/27/2021 06:55PM  
We just got back in yesterday, and talked to a group that had to come out for resupply on Moose lake. They were staying on Agnes and swore that someone stole their food pack. I was extremely doubtful and they said that one of their food packs was missing with not a sign of it found. They even stated that their canoe was moved in the middle of the night and it was quiet enough that nobody woke up to the noise. I talked to a couple outfitters as we were puttering around town and everyone was convinced it was a bear. But maybe someone lost a food pack to a bear and instead of just asking for food, decided to help themselves. No clue but this is definitely a reminder to keep a clean campsite.
prizes14
distinguished member (175)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/27/2021 10:38PM  
I just got back from my solo trip to #16 and had a bear destroy my hung food pack on the first night (June 20) of my 7 day trip and ate half my food. I had it hung but not high enough. It was on the very north west campsite of Agnes closest to the 25 rod portage. He came back a second time as I was cleaning up the mess. Talked to another group and they saw possibly 3 different bears on Agnes. They said one bear was up in the tree out on a limb trying to reach down to get the pack.

Fortunately I was able to halfway stitch my pack with parachute cord and catch enough fish to last the week. I've had that Granite Gear Superior 1 pack with me on 9 trips and hated to lose it.

I couldn't believe how much trash people just throw in the fire grates without even burning it (which I know you aren't supposed to do anyway.) Also plenty of hooks, fishing line and plastic worms thrown about many sites. Oh, and did I mention the walleye carcasses just thrown in the water? Makes my blood boil.
billconner
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06/28/2021 06:52AM  
I'm curious to learn did bears get bag at day or night? Were you in camp or day tripping?
prizes14
distinguished member (175)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/28/2021 07:12AM  
billconner: "I'm curious to learn did bears get bag at day or night? Were you in camp or day tripping? "


He came at night and when I was cleaning it up early morning was when he tried to come back.
tumblehome
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06/28/2021 07:18AM  
Sounds like it’s time the USFS close Agnes to campers for the rest of the summer.

Tom
06/28/2021 07:57AM  
At the very least, it sounds like we should all pass-through this lake and not plan to camp there overnight. That's an incredible amount of bear activity on that lake. It's starting to rival SAK bear activity in years past.
Lawnchair107
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06/28/2021 08:08AM  
HighnDry: "At the very least, it sounds like we should all pass-through this lake and not plan to camp there overnight. That's an incredible amount of bear activity on that lake. It's starting to rival SAK bear activity in years past."


We will yes, but the noobs who don’t know better (not aware of the problems) will still continue and this nasty circle will continue to play out.
mjmkjun
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06/28/2021 08:17AM  
Bear spray and bear vaults worth the investment(s) more and more. Can't fault the bear who's hungry and in its territory. Can't fault the campers who have hung their foodstuff properly. Get a bear vault (or two) and bear spray to avoid ruining a trip.
RatherbeDuffing
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
06/28/2021 02:22PM  
Wonder when the UFS is just going to make bear vaults a requirement for entry into the BWCA? Many national parks require them for backcountry camping. With enforcement (which is lacking in the BWCA) this could go a long ways to fixing the problem.

joewildlife
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06/28/2021 02:40PM  
I wonder about a bear proof container requirement as well.
However, I have two BV500 Bear Vaults. Not only are they about $84 each, two of them won't nearly hold a trip's worth of food, and there is no good way to carry them. But I use a 60L barrel and keep a clean camp but I don't hang my barrel. I know it isn't bear resistant. I would prefer they NOT put a blanket restriction like this in place, but rather just choose to stay away from those super popular areas with known bears. The noobs are certainly making the problem worse, I've seen a LOT of bad behavior in the BWCA my last three trips (during Covid), and I honestly don't think anybody reading this forum is the problem.


Joe
06/28/2021 03:46PM  
joewildlife: "I wonder about a bear proof container requirement as well.
However, I have two BV500 Bear Vaults. Not only are they about $84 each, two of them won't nearly hold a trip's worth of food, and there is no good way to carry them. But I use a 60L barrel and keep a clean camp but I don't hang my barrel. I know it isn't bear resistant. I would prefer they NOT put a blanket restriction like this in place, but rather just choose to stay away from those super popular areas with known bears. The noobs are certainly making the problem worse, I've seen a LOT of bad behavior in the BWCA my last three trips (during Covid), and I honestly don't think anybody reading this forum is the problem.


Joe
"


I do the blue barrel as well. I used to hang, but I've heard stories and watched videos about bears getting into a properly hung pack. There's risk no matter what you do. I figure that at least with the barrel, it isn't that expensive to replace it if it does get damaged, it seals in the scent so it isn't as easily identified as food, and it keeps out racoons and squirrels that might otherwise chew through a hung pack. Plus hanging a food pack is a huge pain so most of the time it probably isn't high enough and/or far enough from the tree. At least the barrel is easy enough to avoid doing it wrong.
RatherbeDuffing
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
06/28/2021 05:12PM  
joewildlife: "I wonder about a bear proof container requirement as well.
However, I have two BV500 Bear Vaults. Not only are they about $84 each, two of them won't nearly hold a trip's worth of food, and there is no good way to carry them. But I use a 60L barrel and keep a clean camp but I don't hang my barrel. I know it isn't bear resistant. I would prefer they NOT put a blanket restriction like this in place, but rather just choose to stay away from those super popular areas with known bears. The noobs are certainly making the problem worse, I've seen a LOT of bad behavior in the BWCA my last three trips (during Covid), and I honestly don't think anybody reading this forum is the problem.



Joe
"


I am a little surprised those bear vaults don't have a bigger canoe country size. Theoretically they could make one the same size as the blue barrels. It would be a bit heavier but oh well...

Agree completely that the people causing the issue don't frequent this board. I really wish they would increase entry fees to get some more patrols checking people. Hope they drop the hammer on people they catch. The lasting damage these idiots cause greatly outlasts the pain they feel in their pocket book
joewildlife
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06/28/2021 06:11PM  
you are right, what if they made a 60L bear vault! They would get rich.
I don't hang. I hide, the Cliff Jacobsen technique, I take it with me during the day if day tripping, or I pile pots and pans on it as an alarm system and will try to defend my food. The latter approach clearly doesn't work on the Agnes bears. So I choose just not to go there...work my butt off to bypass it on the way in or out to LLC.
Hopefully some archers will take care of the problem. I'd say a guy could go in looking like a canoeist, apply some deet and sunscreen as cover scent, forego the camo, and fry up some fish and bacon for breakfast, and sit back and wait for Yogi and get him with a bow...problem solved.

Joe
Lawnchair107
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06/28/2021 06:29PM  
joewildlife: "I'd say a guy could go in looking like a canoeist, apply some deet and sunscreen as cover scent, forego the camo, and fry up some fish and bacon for breakfast, and sit back and wait for Yogi and get him with a bow...problem solved.

Joe
"


Haha, +1
JDM2
Guest Paddler
  
06/29/2021 08:06AM  
joewildlife: "I wonder about a bear proof container requirement as well.
However, I have two BV500 Bear Vaults. Not only are they about $84 each, two of them won't nearly hold a trip's worth of food, and there is no good way to carry them. But I use a 60L barrel and keep a clean camp but I don't hang my barrel. I know it isn't bear resistant. I would prefer they NOT put a blanket restriction like this in place, but rather just choose to stay away from those super popular areas with known bears. The noobs are certainly making the problem worse, I've seen a LOT of bad behavior in the BWCA my last three trips (during Covid), and I honestly don't think anybody reading this forum is the problem.



Joe
"


If there is a will there is often a way. I felt that bear resistant canisters were the only serious protection for unattended food so I made the switch from hiding and hanging to canisters. It was an easy transition for me.

I felt that it was better for myself, the wild animals, and the other campers. I used similar reasoning for getting vaccines.

Unless required I respect the choices of others regarding PFD's , food protection, and personal camping styles.



dustytrail
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06/29/2021 08:07AM  
I sometimes paddle where bear barrels are required and so have garcias. I have them so I use them in bwca. 3 of them hold my food for 2 for a week and with the right pack are easy to portage. They also make a decent seat at camp.
PeaceFrog
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06/29/2021 09:53AM  
Well I am planning a trip through EP16 next June. Hope the bear moves on before then. Was planning to use a Ursack. Might have to reconsider.
thistlekicker
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06/29/2021 01:04PM  
I'm sick of these bear attacks. It's like a freakin country bear jambaroo around here.
thistlekicker
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06/29/2021 01:10PM  
If you want wild bears eating your children and scaring away your salmon, that's your business. But I'm not going to take it.
thistlekicker
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06/29/2021 01:13PM  
Let the bears pay the bear tax. I pay the Homer tax.
06/29/2021 06:58PM  
WOW! While we are killing off all those child eating bears I think we should deal with the tooth problem on the northern pike and those sharp fins on the walleye, trap out the mice and shoot the chippys and end their reign of terror on unprotected white bread, don't forget the Roundup to kill those pesky trees blocking my view and where is the DDT when we need it? mosquitoes, blackflies and ticks OhMy. How dare these creatures interfere with my once a year 5 day 4 night" wilderness" vacation !! The nerve! they act like they live here? Wildlife belong in a zoo just like God intended.

Live trap and relocate the problem bears. close the camp sites for 2 years.

Would you not pick up a $20.00 bill found laying on the ground? why would you expect bears to forgo a free meal, you brought it in his house after all.
schweady
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06/30/2021 09:13AM  
joewildlife: "...what if they made a 60L bear vault!..."

Guaranteed sale here. (But, of course, they'd want $400.00 for it...)
OHPaddler
member (22)member
  
06/30/2021 09:22AM  
schweady: "
joewildlife: "...what if they made a 60L bear vault!..."

Guaranteed sale here. (But, of course, they'd want $400.00 for it...)
"


I had conversations in early 2021 with both Bearikade and Bearvault about building a 60L version of their product for canoe tripping. Neither has the current capability to produce a 60L version.

Bearikade Response:
The carbon fiber cylinders that are used for the Bearikade are table rolled with offset seams. The tooling produces a six foot long “log”. We dice these to make 82 different sizes. The largest Bearikade we shipped last year was 22” tall. The largest cylinder ever manufactured and sold was nearly six feet long.

I think that the Bearikade diameter is ~9"

Bearvault:
Thank you for reaching out to us. We have definitely thought about this. The size limitations originate from our equipment, although we are looking at some other suppliers who may be able to make a larger version. It. would also have to be thicker to compensate for the larger proportions (making it heavier - which only really matters during portage). You're right, it is something to consider for the canoeists. We will look more into this once we determine the capabilities of suppliers.

Thank you for sending your suggestion, and also for supplying the exact specification that would work best.

joewildlife
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06/30/2021 12:37PM  
So does the USFS or MN DNR actually DO anything about problem bears in the BWCA?
Trap and relocate would be extremely difficult if not impossible. I don't know if they would shoot a problem bear, or if they leave it up to hunters to do it via regular hunting seasons. Do they every close camping on a given lake?

The Bearikades look interesting but far too pricey!
I would suspect that Bear Vaults couldn't be made effectively in a 60L version but a 30L version should be doable. I would hate to go back to a pack with two 30L barrels, I had a Kondo and was terrible to carry and had to sit upright in my canoe, while my CCS Quad Pocket 60L barrel pack is good to carry and lays down in my canoe for a lower center of gravity.

Joe
treehorn
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06/30/2021 01:55PM  
joewildlife: "So does the USFS or MN DNR actually DO anything about problem bears in the BWCA?
Trap and relocate would be extremely difficult if not impossible. I don't know if they would shoot a problem bear, or if they leave it up to hunters to do it via regular hunting seasons. Do they every close camping on a given lake?
"


They will close campsites at times, and kill them at times.

What exactly triggers them to spring into this type of action, I have no idea. Obviously it has to do with repeated reports from multiple groups of campers, but how many and what types of reports, I don't know.
JDM2
Guest Paddler
  
06/30/2021 03:39PM  
PeaceFrog: "Well I am planning a trip through EP16 next June. Hope the bear moves on before then. Was planning to use a Ursack. Might have to reconsider."


Bear resistant canisters are pricey but quality pre-owned canisters can be found for less than half retail if you have the time to search.

I prefer canisters but have considered taking a Ursack in addition to a canister to contain the overflow when one canister will not hold everything starting out.








mjmkjun
distinguished member(2885)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/01/2021 06:33AM  
merlyn: "WOW! While we are killing off all those child eating bears I think we should deal with the tooth problem on the northern pike and those sharp fins on the walleye, trap out the mice and shoot the chippys and end their reign of terror on unprotected white bread, don't forget the Roundup to kill those pesky trees blocking my view and where is the DDT when we need it? mosquitoes, blackflies and ticks OhMy. How dare these creatures interfere with my once a year 5 day 4 night" wilderness" vacation !! The nerve! they act like they live here? Wildlife belong in a zoo just like God intended.


Live trap and relocate the problem bears. close the camp sites for 2 years.


Would you not pick up a $20.00 bill found laying on the ground? why would you expect bears to forgo a free meal, you brought it in his house after all."


I like your thinking.
Sadly, understaffed FS districts aren't going to find the funds to dart, sedate, and relocate. Culling is cheaper.
07/01/2021 10:51AM  
The live traps I have seen look like a culvert with a door attached to a baited trigger. The logistics of placing them and removing a captured bear are probably more trouble then the FS can afford to take, although I bet there are people that would volunteer to help transport the trap in and out.
I guess I don't have a solution to the Agnes bears except to close the camp sites in question long enough to re educate the bears that this is not a food source.
Preserving the wildlife as wild is part of LNT.

















Wispaddler
member (45)member
  
07/02/2021 10:20AM  
We have taken to using a 30L blue barrel (foot for 2 for a week) and bike lock cable it to a tree maybe 50 yds from camp off in the bush. There is zero scent plus they seem to really be keying in on the campsites as opposed to randomly scouring the area in the vicinity. And we keep a very clean camp. So far so good. I think the problem bears have learned to spot those odd looking things hanging from the trees and really go after them.
danbogey
senior member (79)senior membersenior member
  
07/02/2021 01:07PM  
Wispaddler: "We have taken to using a 30L blue barrel (foot for 2 for a week) and bike lock cable it to a tree maybe 50 yds from camp off in the bush. There is zero scent plus they seem to really be keying in on the campsites as opposed to randomly scouring the area in the vicinity. And we keep a very clean camp. So far so good. I think the problem bears have learned to spot those odd looking things hanging from the trees and really go after them. "


There's no such thing as zero scent. "Conservative estimates of a black bear's sense of smell state that a black bear can smell a food source from over a mile away, while other sources claim a black bear can smell food from over two miles away. " I'd be careful putting my barrel that far, you'll never hear the bear getting into it. If you're occupying a campsite I'm guessing any bear within a mile will know you're there. If they're feeling up to it they'll pay you a visit to see what they can scrounge. My method for my 60-liter barrel is to put a cotter pin in the handle release and find the best spot near you to secure it. I try and find places I can wedge it into then just wrap the rope around it and the tree 5 or 6 times, I'll then place some pots and pans with pebbles so if yogi decides to mess with it I'll at least hear it at night. trying to hang a barrel is almost impossible and leads people to hoist it up a tree where the barrel rests on the tree. I've seen bears scramble up the tree, pop then lid, and rummage through everything.

As far as the Bearikades, I have one but only use it when I'm hiking in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. They are expensive but worth it when your ultralight backpacking. My go-to solo food storage in the BWCA is the Ursack XL Major
desertcanoe
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07/03/2021 01:05PM  
About the cost of bear-proof containers.

Yeah they're kinda pricey. As others have mentioned, in grizzly country out west they're mandatory for any backcountry travel. Out there, if you don't want to buy, it's pretty standard that you can rent Bearvaults. Even the Forest Service offices rent them in popular areas like Rocky Mountain National Park

We never go into the backcountry without our food in bearproof containers. Used to use Bearvaults but we moved on to Ursacks. They're approved for used by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee (IGBC) so I figure they'll stop a black bear. In an Ursack a bear can mess up my food (they crush) but they can't get at it. Which means after they've messed up one or two they learn it's not worth their while and leave them alone.
I think 2 Ursacks actually weighs less than bringing rope along for hanging. And they pack down small when empty (they never both get empty because of packing out garbage.)
FYI here’s the IGBC approved list of containers, coolers etc:
http://igbconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/210614_Certified_Products_List-1.pdf

Whatever we choose, just remember a bear’s gonna do what a bear’s gonna do and respect that. Bears become “problem bears” because of “problem humans. If I’m hanging out in the bears’ home, I don’t put my food where I’m going to cause a bear to get shipped out or killed. Just like if I'm visiting in someone’s house, I don’t leave my gun out where their kids can play with it and get killed. If I left it out and their kid was playing with the gun, that’s my fault. (And I don’t get to bow-hunt the kids.)

I figure the weight and cost and inconvenience of a bearproof container is part of the price of respecting the wild.
mjmkjun
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07/03/2021 01:40PM  
I strap my blue barrel against a tree within camp, in full view. Since 2007, never had a bear encounter. I'm constantly going in and out of barrel to retrieve stuff and clamp it closed each time--mostly to keep small critters out of it. Kind of annoying at times, though. I leave nothing out except stove/fuel & clean pans/mug. If a bear is going to claw at the blue barrel I want to hear it and make use of bear spray. A bear, rabbit, chipmunk, or moose wandering into camp is something you can't foresee. What you can control is what it finds/doesn't find. I do fret about that hanging water bladder getting raked by claws.
VoyageurNorth
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07/03/2021 08:09PM  
Unfortunately most bears who are live captured usually end up coming back in a year or two.

I have been advising anyone doing the #16 Moose River route to either not camp in Agnes or bring a barrel.

People are making sure they get out early enough to get up to Boulder Bay or Tiger Bay.
prizes14
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07/03/2021 10:23PM  
VoyageurNorth: "Unfortunately most bears who are live captured usually end up coming back in a year or two.


I have been advising anyone doing the #16 Moose River route to either not camp in Agnes or bring a barrel.


People are making sure they get out early enough to get up to Boulder Bay or Tiger Bay."


They better get to those sites on Boulder and Tiger Bay by about noon because they were all locked up when I was up there. Not one open. Once I got to Fish Stake Narrows up north, there were open sites all the way west. The number of people up there is ridiculous, even with permits to limit people.
JDM2
Guest Paddler
  
07/04/2021 01:01PM  
The OP's bear problem is related to food protection and food protection is unregulated in the BWCA . The Forest Service planning guide suggests hanging or bear resistant canister but individuals can do as they please .

Some people do not consider food protection important or do not understand the impact and take little or no precaution. Others understand the impact and feel compelled to do their best but expense, convenience, or difficulty cause them to fall short.

Be informed and trip with a clear conscience.

John





billconner
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07/05/2021 06:30AM  
Not totally unregulated and I expect more regulation will come.

BWCAW bear container requirement
pearl62
member (31)member
  
07/05/2021 06:58AM  
We went in on 6/22 at #16, headed for Oyster for our first night. We stopped on Agnes at the site just north of the Oyster portage because we were tired. After we had our camp set up, my son saw a note in the fire grate that said " Bear here 6/18" . I decided I would not sleep, so we packed up and pushed to Oyster. We had a great trip, on up to Ge-be, north island on LLC. Spent the last night on Nina Moose, getting the last site. By the way, we always use a blue barrel and hide it.
mpswid0
member (45)member
  
07/05/2021 07:10AM  
If it gets too bad, I can see the forest service either setting up permanent poles and wires to hang bags, or place bear proof containers in every camp site. It would definitely be a lot of work and money though.

Matt
R1verrunner
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07/06/2021 06:09AM  
Mn has lots of bears.

These problem bears should be removed .


There is really no reason one or two bears. Should be allowed to ruin disrupt endanger the lives of hundreds of humans.

The forest service has a lot of liability if some one gets injured by a known problem bear and they refuse to act.

Case out of AZ cost the state a couple million dollars

MMt lemon bear attack
billconner
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07/06/2021 07:32AM  
mpswid0: "If it gets too bad, I can see the forest service either setting up permanent poles and wires to hang bags, or place bear proof containers in every camp site. It would definitely be a lot of work and money though.


Matt"


Of the two, much prefer the poles and wire rope. It is easy and apparently successful at Philmont. I hate to think what I would find left in the metal boxes. Both seem not practical to install in BWCAW. Rental containers seem more likely.

PeaceFrog
distinguished member (339)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/06/2021 08:25AM  
I have enjoyed reading everyone's position on the "problem" bear(s). For me it's not a problem. It is a part of the wilderness we love. We all know that a bear could show up anywhere at anytime. It is our choice to help prevent such encounters and it is also our choice how we deal with it when it happens. I do not expect the FS or anyone to take action on this. It will need to run its course naturally.
JDM2
Guest Paddler
  
07/06/2021 09:41AM  
billconner: "
mpswid0: "If it gets too bad, I can see the forest service either setting up permanent poles and wires to hang bags, or place bear proof containers in every camp site. It would definitely be a lot of work and money though.



Matt"



Of the two, much prefer the poles and wire rope. It is easy and apparently successful at Philmont. I hate to think what I would find left in the metal boxes. Both seem not practical to install in BWCAW. Rental containers seem more likely.


"


Equipment and procedures go hand in hand. People often do not understand or care about the function or proper use of equipment. Even if the forest service provided steel vaults or poles with cables at campsites some people would fail to use them properly. Also in camp is not the only time that food is vulnerable

Our choices regarding food protection can effect our trip, the wildlife, and the trips of other. I determined that bear resistant canisters provide the best insurance of success for myself while still being practical. When researching bear resistant canisters I came across articles and videos of bears that have defeated them, still they are my currant preferred method.

I chose to guard or secure my food. Food is either in my possession or stowed properly in a bear resistant canister. Unattended food that is not properly stowed on portages or anytime in camp is in my opinion an unnecessary and preventable risk. I single portage but if I were to leave my food canister unattended on a portage or in camp it would be properly stowed without the carry harness attached.

Discussions like this are like preaching to the choir. Those reading this thread likely have an interest in the function and use of equipment and though we don't always agree we may be searching to improve the experience for ourselves and others.

John
pastorjsackett
distinguished member(1204)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/06/2021 11:05AM  


Just to put all comments from Thistlekicker above in perspective.... We Don't Want Anymore Bears!
joewildlife
distinguished member(605)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/06/2021 12:30PM  
I don't think we are preaching to the choir here. I think there is a pretty good discussion going.

I have a few things to address here:

1) I have always planned on defending my food pack. Others have said that is their plan too. Problem is, the bear in question would not be deterred by the campers. They could not scare him off the pack. So I learned that in the case of these problem bears, it takes more if you plan on defending your food. it takes bear spray at least. But, bear spray has hardly been mentioned in this thread, nor other threads on BWCA bears I've seen. Maybe there is something I don't know about it. But I don't think any of us should be so cocky as to assume they can scare off the bear.

2) Lots of folks rely on hanging their packs. These smart bears find hanging packs, and know to chew through the securing ropes to get the whole pack down. Unless you are using steel cables, you are fooling yourself if you think your pack is safe. Sure, it may be less visible and not even smell, but the bears know it is there.

3) I have a couple BV500 cannisters but would need 2 to 3 more to replace my 60L blue barrel. I don't want to use them...if you don't remove them from your pack, the bear will destroy the pack and then what do you do? They are just a pain.

I don't know the answers but I'm going to continue to use my 60L barrel where I can legally, with a plan to defend it. Might start carrying bear spray. But personally I won't stay on a lake with known bear problems.

Joe
07/06/2021 02:00PM  
I typically “protect” my food by
1) keeping a clean camp,
2) storing food in a blue barrel, and
3) strapping the barrel to a tree at ground level a bit out of camp.

This has worked well. However, there is room for improvement and if I was going where there are know problem bears, it is worth thing about. Most of the common options and their strengths and weaknesses have been mentioned. There is one option I think about that has not been mentioned. Maybe it has short comings I don’t see or maybe not. What do you think?

Here is the idea, combine a blue barrel and ursacks. This could be done in several ways.

1) Instead of using nylon organizers inside the barrel to separate your foods, use ursacks. Perhaps the company could be talked into making sacks to fit the barrels.

2) Protect the entire barrel by putting it in a ursack. Again, someone would have to convince the company to make such sacks. This wouldn’t be hard for barrels carried in a barrel pack. If you wanted the barrel in a sack with a harness over it, it might take more work to get a design that worked.

So, what do you think?
PeaceFrog
distinguished member (339)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/06/2021 02:59PM  
Agree. Bear spray is something I am considering to have with me. I am also researching the use of wolf pee as a deterrent. Have seen or heard of anyone using it or its effectiveness. Anyone?
R1verrunner
distinguished member (111)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/06/2021 04:45PM  
Black bears are least effected by spray.

Worth trying I carry a canister on every trip.

Never had to use it.

But don't be surprised if it does not work.
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2885)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/06/2021 05:42PM  
PeaceFrog: "Agree. Bear spray is something I am considering to have with me. I am also researching the use of wolf pee as a deterrent. Have seen or heard of anyone using it or its effectiveness. Anyone?"

Pee: Don't be surprised if it attracts wolves!
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2709)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/06/2021 07:01PM  
The reports show that bear was 356 pounds and was 1 year old.

That is a really, really big one year old, if that was true.

And that is a really big bear for the BWCA, even at adult size.

If it had been attacking other people, then it should have been dealt with. Not moved somewhere else.

The bear(s( on Agnes, as far as I have heard from customers, has only been interested in the food/food pack. Maybe it has not run out of camp right away, but has not been aggressive towards people. Bear reports in the past for Agnes have also been interested in the food, not the people.

This bear is getting too used to people & food so if more people choose to camp on a different lake, it may help. Or this bear may just wait till next year or the next, see people and decide to look for the "pik a nik" baskets again.

This bear might be a candidate for either moving far away or we can tell people who are hunting in the BWCA this fall where they can find a bear fairly easy.

For hunters, I figure if they are going to shoot a bear anyway, might as well get one that has been a nuisance plus may be plump because of what it is eating. :-)




R1verrunner: "Mn has lots of bears.


These problem bears should be removed .


There is really no reason one or two bears. Should be allowed to ruin disrupt endanger the lives of hundreds of humans.

The forest service has a lot of liability if some one gets injured by a known problem bear and they refuse to act.

Case out of AZ cost the state a couple million dollars

MMt lemon bear attack "
RatherbeDuffing
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
07/06/2021 10:25PM  
joewildlife: "I don't think we are preaching to the choir here. I think there is a pretty good discussion going.


I have a few things to address here:


1) I have always planned on defending my food pack. Others have said that is their plan too. Problem is, the bear in question would not be deterred by the campers. They could not scare him off the pack. So I learned that in the case of these problem bears, it takes more if you plan on defending your food. it takes bear spray at least. But, bear spray has hardly been mentioned in this thread, nor other threads on BWCA bears I've seen. Maybe there is something I don't know about it. But I don't think any of us should be so cocky as to assume they can scare off the bear.


2) Lots of folks rely on hanging their packs. These smart bears find hanging packs, and know to chew through the securing ropes to get the whole pack down. Unless you are using steel cables, you are fooling yourself if you think your pack is safe. Sure, it may be less visible and not even smell, but the bears know it is there.


3) I have a couple BV500 cannisters but would need 2 to 3 more to replace my 60L blue barrel. I don't want to use them...if you don't remove them from your pack, the bear will destroy the pack and then what do you do? They are just a pain.


I don't know the answers but I'm going to continue to use my 60L barrel where I can legally, with a plan to defend it. Might start carrying bear spray. But personally I won't stay on a lake with known bear problems.


Joe
"



I agree with you about hanging packs. 90% of the packs aren't hung correctly either due to inexperience, laziness, or just not having the right tree around. It just isn't worth the time.

IRegarding bear vaults... they are expensive, but so are the blue barrels and they will last a long time. Other parks have successfully implemented it so I don't think it is too huge a burden. Definitely would be an adjustment as people probably couldn't bring as much crap as they normally do

For what it's worth I just switched to bringing bearvaults. Previously I have just hid/defended my food without issue. Doing a hike out west this summer so I made the change. Definitely impacted my meal plans in the BWCA this summer, but I slept better at night knowing I didn't have to worry about it
coffeetalk
senior member (65)senior membersenior member
  
07/08/2021 11:50AM  
FWIW

I did a loop out of LIS north last week. I don't remember which evening it was, whether I was camped on Hustler or Ge-be-on-e-quet (would have been June 26 or 27), but I definitely heard rifle fire. Definitely a centerfire rifle, definitely out of the east. Two shots several seconds apart, and a third maybe up to a minute later. Are people still having nuisance bears on Agnes?
Voyager
distinguished member (387)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/08/2021 06:58PM  
Remember! bear spray canisters spray approximately 9 seconds. Agnes Lake has repeated accounts of 3 bears. That gives you 3 seconds per bear. Good luck, and don't spray till you see the whites ( or reds) of their eyes.
JDM2
Guest Paddler
  
07/09/2021 09:44AM  
I have a carry harness that will fit a Counter Assault Bear Keg bear resistant canister. If anyone wants it I will be in Ely July 13.
desertcanoe
distinguished member (107)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/09/2021 12:09PM  
billconner: "
mpswid0: "If it gets too bad, I can see the forest service either setting up permanent poles and wires to hang bags, or place bear proof containers in every camp site. It would definitely be a lot of work and money though.



Matt"



Of the two, much prefer the poles and wire rope. It is easy and apparently successful at Philmont. I hate to think what I would find left in the metal boxes. Both seem not practical to install in BWCAW. Rental containers seem more likely.


"


This is pretty standard in Canadian national parks. Poles with wires in the Canadian Rockies. In Pukaskwa on the north shore of Lake Superior east of Thunder Bay they have the boxes. And yeah, people leave stuff in them.
R1verrunner
distinguished member (111)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/10/2021 06:03AM  
The reports show that bear was 356 pounds and was 1 year old.

A 356lb is a big bear.

Most yearlings are in the 75 to 100lb range.

Could well be dealing with more then one bear.

356lbs is an odd estimate I have weighed and seen a lot of bears weighted

Most guessamates are way off on live bears.

We have a weight contest with every one throwing in a dollar the winner usual is with in 10lbs.

But the weight guess can be way off also. Most of those are by people with little exspearince.

mjmkjun
distinguished member(2885)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/10/2021 05:48PM  
Voyager: "Remember! bear spray canisters spray approximately 9 seconds. Agnes Lake has repeated accounts of 3 bears. That gives you 3 seconds per bear. Good luck, and don't spray till you see the whites ( or reds) of their eyes."


Voyager, you jest, yes? If not, then 'we' are sh*t of luck because the videos I watched instructed to spray until bear turns to flee. If you wait until you see the white of a charging bear's eyes and it's headed to you--you'll be flying in the air upon impact or underneath smelling its stinky breath.
In reality, I think most black bears just meander around the campground slightly annoyed with wide-eyed campers talking in tongues, freaking out, and helpless.
R1verrunner
distinguished member (111)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/11/2021 05:37AM  
mjmkjun: "
Voyager: "Remember! bear spray canisters spray approximately 9 seconds. Agnes Lake has repeated accounts of 3 bears. That gives you 3 seconds per bear. Good luck, and don't spray till you see the whites ( or reds) of their eyes."



Voyager, you jest, yes? If not, then 'we' are sh*t of luck because the videos I watched instructed to spray until bear turns to flee. If you wait until you see the white of a charging bear's eyes and it's headed to you--you'll be flying in the air upon impact or underneath smelling its stinky breath.
In reality, I think most black bears just meander around the campground slightly annoyed with wide-eyed campers talking in tongues, freaking out, and helpless."


At the distances that spray is recommended one well have a very good look at any bear.
07/11/2021 12:24PM  
mjmkjun: "talking in tongues, freaking out, and helpless."


Are you talking about campers or politicians?
07/14/2021 09:49AM  
Just an FYI, there was a handwritten note on a USFS report tacked to the EP16 Moose River North kiosk at the parking lot. It stated that on or around July 7, a black bear was seen in a campsite on Nina Moose. The note did not specify which site. The bear apparently did not get the group's food pack and they scared him/her off.

I just stayed on Nina Moose overnight on the 12th and portaged out on the 13th to the parking lot. I did not see or hear of any bear activity so there's no way to know if this was a one off or a recurring pattern.
tmccann
member (35)member
  
07/14/2021 01:39PM  
Greetings - we camped on the north side of the north peninsula the evening of July 7. No sign of bear. There was a base camping fish-party camped just west of us who had exposed fish carcasses to ravens, thus inviting bears.

I spent the ENTIRE summer of 1976 as wilderness ranger on Agnes Lake. It was a full time job convincing people to keep a clean camp (dont bury fish skins, etc). The bear legacy continues but the full time adult supervision was never continued after my summer there.

I wouldnt avoid Agnes if you really want to go through there. Just inspect your campsite for buried or discarded fish and garbage. Clean up the camp yourself (including the micro litter - that smells too) and prepare to protect your gear from depredation. Stay only ONE NIGHT on your way to LLC. Its the base campers who seem to attract bear.
PeaceFrog
distinguished member (339)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/14/2021 02:28PM  
Anytime I get to have an encounter with wildlife of all types(not mosquitos) I feel very blessed and hope we all feel that way most of the time. I certainly do not want to see a bruin dragging my food pack away from camp, but I would welcome a sighting. Let's all keep passing the word on keeping a tidy camp and proper hanging. I'll be going to EP16 in June 2022.
Leave no trace>
Reke0402
senior member (87)senior membersenior member
  
07/19/2021 09:29AM  
We left Agnes on Saturday morning, one of the small bears stopped by for a minute Friday night till we told him to get lost, we cooked fish that night so i am sure he smelled the grease, other then that no issues. I know the other 2 sites around us had the bears stop by a little more frequently.
PeaceFrog
distinguished member (339)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/19/2021 10:01AM  
Reke0402: "We left Agnes on Saturday morning, one of the small bears stopped by for a minute Friday night till we told him to get lost, we cooked fish that night so i am sure he smelled the grease, other then that no issues. I know the other 2 sites around us had the bears stop by a little more frequently. "


Hunters take notice
07/21/2021 11:01AM  
I was just going to ask about the Ursaks. Thank you for this post.

desertcanoe: "About the cost of bear-proof containers.


Yeah they're kinda pricey. As others have mentioned, in grizzly country out west they're mandatory for any backcountry travel. Out there, if you don't want to buy, it's pretty standard that you can rent Bearvaults. Even the Forest Service offices rent them in popular areas like Rocky Mountain National Park


We never go into the backcountry without our food in bearproof containers. Used to use Bearvaults but we moved on to Ursacks. They're approved for used by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee (IGBC) so I figure they'll stop a black bear. In an Ursack a bear can mess up my food (they crush) but they can't get at it. Which means after they've messed up one or two they learn it's not worth their while and leave them alone.
I think 2 Ursacks actually weighs less than bringing rope along for hanging. And they pack down small when empty (they never both get empty because of packing out garbage.)
FYI here’s the IGBC approved list of containers, coolers etc:
http://igbconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/210614_Certified_Products_List-1.pdf


Whatever we choose, just remember a bear’s gonna do what a bear’s gonna do and respect that. Bears become “problem bears” because of “problem humans. If I’m hanging out in the bears’ home, I don’t put my food where I’m going to cause a bear to get shipped out or killed. Just like if I'm visiting in someone’s house, I don’t leave my gun out where their kids can play with it and get killed. If I left it out and their kid was playing with the gun, that’s my fault. (And I don’t get to bow-hunt the kids.)


I figure the weight and cost and inconvenience of a bearproof container is part of the price of respecting the wild.
"
PineKnot
distinguished member(2021)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/22/2021 08:03PM  
There are bears on Agnes? Dang right. I started my 17-night solo trip at EP16 on July 7 (before any fire bans) and arrived Agnes to find 1806 on the eastern shoreline the only site not occupied (could be 1806 had no suitable tent pads). I made due by erecting my tent on the huge flat granite slab that now doubled as the canoe landing. So, I had my canoe at one end, 15 feet to my food pack, another 10 feet to my tent door. Did I mention a fella from site 1808 paddled over as I was setting up my tent to tell me they saw a bear a hundred yards or so south of their camp earlier in the day. Well, after sleeping pretty darn well, I was awakened the next morning as first light was overtaking night (around 4:45 am) by a sound followed by silence. After a few more seconds I sit up and stare out of my vestibule which I left open...just in case. And just in case happened. I find myself staring at a fully grown and healthy looking black bear standing between my canoe and pack, and about 15 feet from my door. This bear is just staring back at me now. Took me a few seconds of bewilderment before I blurted out loudly, "Get Out!!" The bear simply turned around and quietly made its way back up the hill into the woods. I thought it musta been astute use of my military command voice that caused this bear to retreat....my wife says I'm just lucky....

This trip ended on Day 13 being chased out by the threat of Q fires jumping into LLC and nearby lakes. Who actually knew one could encounter 5 rangers on 3 separate occassions and once by a game warden in a nice-looking Lund....all within 24 hours?! That's a tale for another thread, but all these encounters were cordial and professional....

And what will the Agnes bears do for food while Agnes remains closed for....weeks??

 
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