BWCA Camp site accountability.. Boundary Waters Listening Point - General Discussion
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myceliaman
distinguished member(931)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/22/2021 11:21AM  
I’m reading more and more about damage to campsites be it cutting down green trees, leaving trash etc.,etc.. I was talking to a friend whose not a canoe guy but does a great deal of camping and he brought up a good thought. Why not have to report to the forest service, what sight you stayed at and which day/days you were at said site. It seems a simple computer program could accomplish this. It might not be fool proof but if someone sees recent damage it could be reported and help with finding said perpetrators. In my mind this could be done with the cooperation of outfitters. It would also help outfitters and permit holders to see how much use a individual site gets.
 
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07/22/2021 12:02PM  
Good idea, but I think the folks who follow rules might be willing to do this. Those who break rules will not abide by it or take the time to do so.
 
07/22/2021 12:11PM  
Even some of us that follow the rules might have an issue with this. It is just one more straw.
 
myceliaman
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07/22/2021 12:15PM  
If you don’t register where you stayed then you can no longer be able to reserve a permit in the future. It couldn’t take more then 5 minutes. As I stated it’s not fool proof but it would possibly create some form of accountability.
 
tumblehome
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07/22/2021 12:22PM  
Unfortunately, this idea is like Amway.
It looks real good on paper but in real life it fizzles before it starts.

The USFS would have to implement a higher level of visitor movement tracking and it would not be popular, or practical. With that, I wish there was a way hold the abusers accountable.

A group could be required to keep a USFS issued GPS tracker with them to monitor their route but could you imagine the fall out from that?

Campsites could be issued numbers in writing at the site and groups would be required to write down the numbers and dates visited and send it back. I would do that but would the Youtubers? How long till the signs are destroyed. Who would the Fed's hire to do all the paperwork. Sigh.

Educating these folks before they get in a canoe is probably the most cost effective way. Or more enforcement in the BWCA

Tom

 
07/22/2021 12:25PM  
I don't want more rules and regulations and policies and procedures in the wilderness. There will ALWAYS be ignorant people that think that the rules don't apply to them. Let's not make it more difficult for those of us that do follow the rules. Increased education and a bit more of an enforcement presence might be justified. Just my 2¢
 
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(14414)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
  
07/22/2021 02:07PM  
Too much human error involved here. Your plan involves remembering what campsite I stayed at what days. Are we going to have signs at each campsite telling us what the site number is? I have no idea what campsite number I’ve ever stayed at. Since no one can remember a weeks worth campsites numbers and days stayed on what lake how would I remember these numbers and dates if I didn’t have a pen or pencil and paper? If you left it up to a map on a computer to log your stats after the trip is over most would forget the numbers or enter the wrong numbers. Others would just not do it at all.

I like this saying…
Animals don’t litter and destroy nature, people do. Be more like animals.
 
dustytrail
distinguished member (194)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/22/2021 04:08PM  
A group might leave a site in good shape but another comes along and trashes it after you leave and never report.
A group might trash a site but are aware that a nearby site was vacant and report that one as the one used.
Lots of mights.
 
07/22/2021 04:24PM  
How about we all wear body-cams???!! (and PLEASE note that this comment is made with an extreme level of sarcasm & snark. NOT SERIOUS!)

TZ
 
07/22/2021 05:22PM  
Recognizing this is a discussion to improve campsite conditions, I did want to share my perspective. First time visitor to BWCA. My son and I just returned from Clearwater (EP 62) area. In preparing I read various posts on this site including those about camp conditions. I was expecting the worst, but was pleasantly surprised to find the sites we found were in good condition upon arrival. We made sure they were in the same condition upon departure. Now, there was a monofilament leader and a small bag of hooks found (that are now mine), but appeared to be a result of unintentional behavior. We did not find any conditions I would attribute to intentional acts. Now in a few years with more trips under my hat my eyesight could improve and perspective change, but we did not experience the camp conditions others have described on this site and are thankful.
 
Boppasteveg
distinguished member (146)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/22/2021 05:28PM  
Well, this would tough to do since the B-dub campsites aren't like hotel rooms. Hotel management fines people all the time because they know exactly who they are.
 
whyzata
senior member (51)senior membersenior member
  
07/22/2021 09:59PM  
The freedom of movement in the Wilderness is what makes it unique. You can go wherever and whenever you wish and camp at any open site. The less bureaucracy the better. I agree that more and better education might work. But slobs will be slobs. The true campers are the respectful ones. Voyageurs park has a great system and accountability. But you pay for the night. Also, if you need to travel 10 miles and the wind is harsh you might not make it to your selected site. I don't understand the chopping of green tree's, nails in trees, garbage, noise and disrespect. To me, these people are and never will be true wilderness campers.
 
07/22/2021 10:00PM  
Fishman53: "Recognizing this is a discussion to improve campsite conditions, I did want to share my perspective. First time visitor to BWCA. My son and I just returned from Clearwater (EP 62) area. In preparing I read various posts on this site including those about camp conditions. I was expecting the worst, but was pleasantly surprised to find the sites we found were in good condition upon arrival. We made sure they were in the same condition upon departure. Now, there was a monofilament leader and a small bag of hooks found (that are now mine), but appeared to be a result of unintentional behavior. We did not find any conditions I would attribute to intentional acts. Now in a few years with more trips under my hat my eyesight could improve and perspective change, but we did not experience the camp conditions others have described on this site and are thankful. "


Thanks for posting your perspective and I am glad you ran into relatively clean sites. To be honest I think most people do well, eventually you run into a site that is just ridiculously destroyed and it gets to ya.

It is happening more but the 2 worst sites I ever saw was on Argo in 2009 and on Hudson in 2002…it isn’t new either.

T
 
jhb8426
distinguished member(1440)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/23/2021 12:37AM  
Nope, just Nope.
Don't need location tracking. Turned it off on my cell phone the day I got it.
Obviously we're passed the date 1984, but no need to hurry the spirit of it. Already too much surveillance of where you are and when.
 
Stumpy
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07/23/2021 01:37AM  
jhb8426: "Nope, just Nope.
Don't need location tracking. Turned it off on my cell phone the day I got it.
Obviously we're passed the date 1984, but no need to hurry the spirit of it. Already too much surveillance of where you are and when."


Agree
 
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2885)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/23/2021 05:58AM  
myceliaman, your proposal was shot full of holes but I commend you for your effort. There seems to be only one solution and that is to have rangers issuing tickets for violations. How to design a fool-proof method of accountability?
Assigned campsite(s) is a way but that proposal would not work because people are on the move.
Voyageurs National Park has an assigned sites policy and I think that works because the area isn't as vast. I wonder if there's a trashing of campsites there?
 
colddriver
member (45)member
  
07/23/2021 06:23AM  
jhb8426: "Nope, just Nope.
Don't need location tracking. Turned it off on my cell phone the day I got it.
Obviously we're passed the date 1984, but no need to hurry the spirit of it. Already too much surveillance of where you are and when."

There is no turning it off!! You might have pushed a button but I guarantee you it's not OFF by any means.
 
07/23/2021 07:43AM  
Another support for a solution, but must agree tracking site usage could be a concern. If it were to work perhaps a gps device the group leader is responsible to pick up with the permit and return. When a negative behavior report is received match it to who was in the area.
I for one would pay more for a permit if funds were used to support more rangers. From what I read they would only have to patrol entry areas.
While most of us do it because it is the right thing, some need consequences.
 
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2885)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/23/2021 08:00AM  
bhouse46: "...
I for one would pay more for a permit if funds were used to support more rangers. From what I read they would only have to patrol entry areas.
... "

Me too! Ranger presence is what's going to work best. Once word gets around that violators are paying hefty fines, it'll affect the trash going in. Pun intended.
Although, I don't understand "they would only have to patrol entry areas." How would that be a gamechanger? Violators watch the films, smirk, and go on to do what they do. Rangers standing at the entry points are going to do any good unless you really believe handing out yet more pamphlets is going to change the mindset of that sort. They have to be caught in the act and ticketed--which involves fieldwork. Rangers love to be in the great outdoors too! It's funding that causes the scant Ranger presence.
Yes, there are people out there who don't know the ethics and principles of LNT. Like, maybe 5. How could you not be aware of them when you just watched the films?
Sorry for the rant. Shouldn't of drank that whole pot of coffee. :D
 
PeaceFrog
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07/23/2021 09:11AM  
Unrelated - dig your message board name myceliaman
 
07/23/2021 10:15AM  
I think that simply seeing someone from the forest service at the entry point would go a long ways as far as enforcement is concerned. Not saying we need someone posted at every EP, but in 8 trips I have not been checked once. If someone spent just a few hours at a popular entry point and checked permits, trash bags, went over rules, asked about violations or bear activity, and whatever else they usually do when stopping people, then I think it might make a big difference. People need to see that there is some enforcement and not just a free-for-all out there.

Probably wouldn't help with the worst violators, but it could encourage some group members to speak up against violations and keep honest people from making mistakes.
 
myceliaman
distinguished member(931)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/23/2021 11:18AM  
In my 150+ trips. I’ve seen one forestry person at hook island once. In September of 95 I saw a group of fire fighters going in and asked us if we were capable of getting ourselves out of cache bay. That’s it for me!! The inky way to solve this problem is to make folks accountable. Education sounds great but you can’t educate someone whom doesn’t. There comes a time the blind man says can’t you read.!!!
 
Lionabe
member (47)member
  
07/23/2021 11:26AM  
That's all good to say, but the USFS has limited assets. They can't patrol everywhere at all times. In fact, the USFS is impacted by worker shortages just as much as any business in Ely or Grand Marais is! So it's great to say that more patrols are necessary, but sometimes that just isn't possible.
 
07/23/2021 01:02PM  
Lionabe: "That's all good to say, but the USFS has limited assets. They can't patrol everywhere at all times. In fact, the USFS is impacted by worker shortages just as much as any business in Ely or Grand Marais is! So it's great to say that more patrols are necessary, but sometimes that just isn't possible."


Then what would it take to get more workers? Personally I don't think that just money is the answer. I think there needs to be more training and educational opportunities. I'm sure there are lots of people up in the iron range that would like a job, USFS or not. Maybe we need more campgrounds or other areas that can bring in more revenue to sustain the USFS in Minnesota. I think the USFS just needs more infrastructure to support the workers and make the working conditions better.
 
Dolpho
member (25)member
  
07/23/2021 01:11PM  
Like everyone else on this board I find the damage and mess left behind by some folks disgusting. And like everyone else I would love to see those folks ticketed.

However I don’t see any practical way to enforce the rules in the field most of the time. To me the most effective way is preaching LNT through the permit process.

Unless we have rangers lurking behind every tree watching our every move and actually witnessing destructive behavior what can they do? Visit your camp while you are there and decide You were responsible for the felled green tree or garbage next to the fire grate? I didn’t do it. Same for trying to track our campsite use and determine responsibility for condition of the site after the fact. Circumstantial evidence unless witnessed. Doubt that would hold up in court if contesting the ticket.

I have had interactions with rangers in the past. All were pleasant and fun to talk with. At the same time the last thing I want is a police state of seeing rangers every day who are stopping by to see if I’m compliant. Be careful what you wish for.

I try not to get too worked up over garbage left behind by slobs. I was a bit steamed tho when finding and hauling out 6 spent 1 lb propane canisters that I found thrown in a crevice of large rock on Williamson island on Insula. To me the only “important” violation is cutting down trees and playing billy bushcrafter. All else is fairly easy to remedy. Not that we should have to.. slobs will be slobs. Best bet is to try and get them to see the light through education.





 
Lionabe
member (47)member
  
07/23/2021 01:42PM  
A1t2o: "
Lionabe: "That's all good to say, but the USFS has limited assets. They can't patrol everywhere at all times. In fact, the USFS is impacted by worker shortages just as much as any business in Ely or Grand Marais is! So it's great to say that more patrols are necessary, but sometimes that just isn't possible."



Then what would it take to get more workers? Personally I don't think that just money is the answer. I think there needs to be more training and educational opportunities. I'm sure there are lots of people up in the iron range that would like a job, USFS or not. Maybe we need more campgrounds or other areas that can bring in more revenue to sustain the USFS in Minnesota. I think the USFS just needs more infrastructure to support the workers and make the working conditions better."


I actually agree with you. While there is a worker shortage, there are things that can be done to mitigate that issue. I was just pointing out that it is not as easy as just saying: "We need more patrols!" There is a lot more thought and action that needs to be done to dramatically lower the number of BWCA rule violators.
 
myceliaman
distinguished member(931)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
07/23/2021 06:36PM  
Since we all have one thing in common which is a love the body waters and the second thing in common which is to eliminate Problems . There’s always that possibility people volunteering and working with the United States Forest service
 
billconner
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07/24/2021 06:07AM  
Kind of related:
Camper fined
 
07/24/2021 11:33AM  
I haven't thought this out completely so I'm sure there are a lot of holes in the plan but here goes-- how about some sort of "adopt a lake" group along the lines of the adopt a high way volunteers?
Lets face reality, a-holes will be a-holes no matter how many educational videos they watch or how many fines are imposed. They act the way they do because they have a screw you attitude and don't expect to get caught.
Here is an example : Merlyn agrees to keep an eye on Horseshoe Lake June 10 to 16th. He DOES NOT confront violators or attempt to enforce any rules and makes no contact with campers other than a "Good Morning", no inspections, no permit checks etc. He has no authority to enforce anything. He goes about his normal berry picking, fishing, exploring, napping ways but when he does see a clear violation, a bon fire or a drone for example he gets on the Sat phone and calls it in and lets the rangers do the enforcement. Merlyn will also check out a recently vacated campsite with trash bag in hand.
Snitch, tattletale, I don't want to get involved, I'm on vacation, not my business etc There are tons of reasons to shoot this idea down but unless politicians suddenly decide to make the funds available to the FS I don't see too many other alternative. I'll sign up.
 
bottomtothetap
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07/25/2021 02:31PM  
myceliaman: "In my 150+ trips. I’ve seen one forestry person at hook island once. In September of 95 I saw a group of fire fighters going in and asked us if we were capable of getting ourselves out of cache bay. That’s it for me!! The inky way to solve this problem is to make folks accountable. Education sounds great but you can’t educate someone whom doesn’t. There comes a time the blind man says can’t you read.!!!"


Compared to you, myceliaman, I must attract the rangers since in less than 30 trips I have crossed paths with them more than a half-dozen times. We were never found to be in any type of "violation" and all have been very pleasant encounters, other than a time we met a crew doing some maintenance as we crossed a portage: There was a guy--not uniformed and I suspect a volunteer--who just from his whole demeanor seemed like he was feeling his authority a bit as he demanded to see our permit.
 
billconner
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07/25/2021 06:42PM  
merlyn: "I haven't thought this out completely so I'm sure there are a lot of holes in the plan but here goes-- how about some sort of "adopt a lake" group along the lines of the adopt a high way volunteers?
Lets face reality, a-holes will be a-holes no matter how many educational videos they watch or how many fines are imposed. They act the way they do because they have a screw you attitude and don't expect to get caught.
Here is an example : Merlyn agrees to keep an eye on Horseshoe Lake June 10 to 16th. He DOES NOT confront violators or attempt to enforce any rules and makes no contact with campers other than a "Good Morning", no inspections, no permit checks etc. He has no authority to enforce anything. He goes about his normal berry picking, fishing, exploring, napping ways but when he does see a clear violation, a bon fire or a drone for example he gets on the Sat phone and calls it in and lets the rangers do the enforcement. Merlyn will also check out a recently vacated campsite with trash bag in hand.
Snitch, tattletale, I don't want to get involved, I'm on vacation, not my business etc There are tons of reasons to shoot this idea down but unless politicians suddenly decide to make the funds available to the FS I don't see too many other alternative. I'll sign up.
"


I like the concept but numbers make it a challenge. Say you divided it up into groups of 50 camp sites. That's 44 groups (and 44 sat phones or maybe satellite communicators.). Memorial Day to Labor Day is 14 weeks. 616 volunteers at a week apiece. And should be double for groups of 25 sites - but still alot. At least two coordinator rangers just to manage.

You'd think in the infrastructure trillions they could find maybe $2.5M / year for 25 or so more rangers.
 
07/25/2021 09:17PM  
Thanks billconner. I know there would be gaps in coverage but I think the deeper you get into the BWCA the less need for volunteers as very long or multiple portages and increased paddling may weed out some of the offenders. I feel that like the Neighborhood Watch signs you see that it would at least make people think twice before they act. If a few of the a.. clowns get caught and fined and their activities get posted on social media it might slow up the abuse.
I know it's just a band aid and it won't stop all the boneheads but I can't think of anything else I personally can do to make a difference. There will never be enough FS funding for wilderness area protection. Politicians look at them as a piggy bank waiting to be smashed open.

 
07/26/2021 12:53PM  
I guess the real starting point should be; how much money do the BWCA permits bring in, and where does that money go? Is it 100% used on the BWCA or is it split up across the entire USFS? How much money is provided by the state or federal government?

Before we can say or do anything about the situation, I think we need to find out what the current situation is. I worry that the the money that is intended to manage the forests and wilderness is going towards bureaucracy and managing the forestry service itself instead.
 
billconner
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07/26/2021 06:40PM  
A1T2o - good question but hard to find answers. 100,000 visitors but how many are overnight and pay $16? Even if all it can't possibly cover the USFS SNF expenses. They do get lumber revenue I think, and maybe minerals. I skimmed USDA budget request 2021 but only one tiny mention of SNF, and no figures.

It's my guess is that all permit money and other income if any goes to a "general fund" and the budget for facilites and personell comes from general tax revenue, and the two are not related.
 
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