If you have already pondered the question enough to have an opinion, or you're a bear biologist or an AK/BC guide, I would like to hear your recommendations on spec'ing an electrified bear fence for the BWCA in two scenarios – portage routes and non-portage routes, all by paddle.

(If you want to expound on bear spray, firearms, the virtues of keeping a clean camp, the virtues and non-virtues of hanging versus canisters versus flinging it under a bush, etc., etc., please find another sandbox to play in.)

UDAP makes one ready to go Bear fence, available cheaper at Cabelas. You can make your own for a bit less. I've made a number of them from scratch, but the breakdown poles are probably worth the added expense. The weak part of all the bear fences is getting a proper ground. Always check the voltage before you rely on it, and add more ground (e.g. large nails) as you see fit. With good grounds, I was routinely getting over 5000 volts, which was recommended.

Yeah, I'm looking at alternatives to the UDAP. Which charger(s) do you favor?

gravelroad: "Yeah, I'm looking at alternatives to the UDAP. Which charger(s) do you favor?"

It's been almost 20 years, but I think we used Zarebas, 2-D cell chargers. I looked at their website, and they've updated them. I'd go with the smallest. So, you'll need a charger, voltmeter, poly-wire, insulated posts, and a couple of 10" fencing spikes (one spike may not be enough, depending on soil). All are available at farm/ranch stores, but the posts are usually one piece (i.e. too long for backpacking, but may be passable for canoes/rafts). The UDAP ones are two piece, I think. They're fun to work with--I developed an "in field" assessment for charge--no zap with my boots, mild zap with just socks, and I don't think I ever tried barefoot.

I thought I stumbled across an Onion article. But you guys are serious.

Blatz: "I thought I stumbled across an Onion article. But you guys are serious."

Yup--electric fences have commonly been used on Alaska river trips (e.g. ADFG bear fence ). I've used them on the Alsek-Tatshenshini Rivers, and used them to reduce bear conflicts within communities in national parks. I had hoped to use one on my latest river (Noatak River in AK), but canisters were required per recent NPS regulations (food for 30 days takes a lot of canisters--we had 20 with 4 people, in canoes).

Blatz: "I thought I stumbled across an Onion article. But you guys are serious."

I have a very specific reason for this query.

Interesting topic. I wonder, for all those people that are struggling with finding ways to hang their food as per the Forest Service Requirements, maybe this could be a solution. Have your canister or blue barrel and also an electric fence surrounding it.

I brought this up in one of the many "order" threads several days ago. I don't know why they aren't more popular. $250, 6 pounds, an area 45' x 45'. What's not to like.

billconner: "I brought this up in one of the many "order" threads several days ago. I don't know why they aren't more popular. $250, 6 pounds, an area 45' x 45'. What's not to like."

6 lbs? That's a deal breaker for me. My full Ursack weighs less than 10 lbs for a typical trip. I'll hang it if I have to.

Blatz: " 6 lbs ? that's a deal breaker for me. my full Ursack weighs less than 10 lbs for a typical trip. I'll hang it if I have to"

Yeah, but try putting your whole camp, boats and all, in your Ursack. They're useful for groups and for areas where bears can damage equipment (a brown bear walked upon an upturned PakCanoe on my last trip, bending some ribs. Bears also like to bite things plastic. I've seen bears bite Royalex boats, just because). Have you seen what a brown bear can do to a Super Cub? The UDAP fence lists at 3.7 pounds, which is less than two food canisters, yet could protect well over 100x that amount of food. Obviously you're not the right clientele.

The thought of fences crossed my mind, but then I wondered if anything electrical might spark, which would be pretty risky right now. Also don’t you have to pound the stakes into the ground to hold up the fence? I seem to have plenty of trouble getting tent stakes down in lots of places.

Jaywalker: "The thought of fences crossed my mind, but then I wondered if anything electrical might spark, which would be pretty risky right now. Also don’t you have to pound the stakes into the ground to hold up the fence? I seem to have plenty of trouble getting tent stakes down in lots of places. "

Yes, they will spark if touched. And yes you do have to drive/press the stakes into the ground. As there is a learning curve to use them (just like hanging food), I wouldn't recommend them to everyone everywhere. But they do have their applications as I mentioned in an earlier post.

MReid: "

Blatz: " 6 lbs ? that's a deal breaker for me. my full Ursack weighs less than 10 lbs for a typical trip. I'll hang it if I have to"

Yeah, but try putting your whole camp, boats and all, in your Ursack. They're useful for groups and for areas where bears can damage equipment (a brown bear walked upon an upturned PakCanoe on my last trip, bending some ribs. Bears also like to bite things plastic. I've seen bears bite Royalex boats, just because). Have you seen what a brown bear can do to a Super Cub? The UDAP fence lists at 3.7 pounds, which is less than two food canisters, yet could protect well over 100x that amount of food. Obviously you're not the right clientele."

Sounds like just the ticket for large groups in Brown Bear territory.

I see the 3.7 pound model. Smaller area 27'x27' but fine for food. Does USFS accept these in lieu of an approved container?

billconner: "I see the 3.7 pound model. Smaller area 27'x27' but fine for food. Does USFS accept these in lieu of an approved container?"

I doubt it, they seem quite married to the idea of a hard-sided container.

Out west (irrelevant for BWCA), the US Forest Service usually relies on the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee guidelines for food storage IGBC food storage Their guidelines do include specific electric fences (and excludes the 3.7 pound UDAP--their heavier model does meet guidelines). Just like hanging food properly, fences must be installed correctly. Otherwise, bears can get ALL of your food, which is bad for you and for the bears. A friend of mine spent a month in Alaska using a UDAP fence, and found out at the end of the trip that it wasn't working (bad ground). Considering how many people screw up with hanging food, I'd proffer that allowing fences with a large spectrum of paddlers (experience, understanding) would be fraught with problems. Canisters are proven effective, and almost foolproof.

MReid, your friend went to sleep every night in grizz country thinking he was protected. He wasn't. Yikes! Some of those bruins out west have very nasty dispositions. He was so lucky.

It's not necessarily that bad. We had grizzlies 50m from camp while we slept. Our food was secure, but they didn't show any interest in our camp.

Huh, there might be something to this Internet thing after all:

Protecting Your Camp from Bears: Electric Fencing

Electric Fences As Bear Deterrents

mschi772: "

billconner: "I see the 3.7 pound model. Smaller area 27'x27' but fine for food. Does USFS accept these in lieu of an approved container?"

I doubt it, they seem quite married to the idea of a hard-sided container."

They recently agreed to a separation after prodding from the Ursack fans. It will probably take a while longer before they publicly acknowledge the benefits of Michael Faraday's insights.

I was on the Noatak earlier this month. We used a Udap fence, the lighter model. I purchased it mostly at the insistence of my girlfriend. She had convinced herself that we would be eaten by bears on the trip. I'll admit that having it around the tent did make going to sleep a lot easier. After some slight modifications I was very happy over all. You need to keep a few things in mind. 1. if you are moving camp everyday it adds to set up time. 2. depending upon the soil, getting a good ground can be an issue. 3. the area has to be clear of bushes and tall grass. Anything that touches the top two wires will absolutely drain your batter in a hurry. 4. spend the ten bucks on amazon and get a fence tester to throw in the bag. I cannot believe that the fence does not come with one. It is a must have in my opinion.

kenpark23: "I was on the Noatak earlier this month. We used a Udap fence, the lighter model. I purchased it mostly at the insistence of my girlfriend. She had convinced herself that we would be eaten by bears on the trip. I'll admit that having it around the tent did make going to sleep a lot easier. After some slight modifications I was very happy over all. You need to keep a few things in mind. 1. if you are moving camp everyday it adds to set up time. 2. depending upon the soil, getting a good ground can be an issue. 3. the area has to be clear of bushes and tall grass. Anything that touches the top two wires will absolutely drain your batter in a hurry. 4. spend the ten bucks on amazon and get a fence tester to throw in the bag. I cannot believe that the fence does not come with one. It is a must have in my opinion. "

Thanks for your input. I’m assembling a DIY kit and a tester is among the things I’ve ordered. Ridiculously cheap piece of mind for that part.

One more item you might want to consider throwing in your kit is a couple of stakes and some cordage. Depending upon the soil type and posts you use, you might notice that the tops of the posts get pulled in as you are trying to tighten up the wires. More than once I had problems getting the top, middle and bottom wires all nice and taught at the same time. Staking out two of the opposite corner posts eliminated that problem and made for an overall stronger fence in the case of high winds etc. This may not be necessary if you are using strong posts in good tight soil.

Yeah, I’ve been visualizing the less cooperative aspects of the Canadian Shield that we all know and love.

You only need them tight enough not to touch. They don't have to be under tension. But if the poles don't go in at all (they are made for soft ground), guying them out should be considered.

Blatz: "I thought I stumbled across an Onion article. But you guys are serious."

I'm going to have to remember this thread for next April Fools Day.

I'm working on a giant battery operated bug zapper that you place in camp and it kills all the bugs so you can have a bug-free campsite.

tumblehome: "

Blatz: "I thought I stumbled across an Onion article. But you guys are serious."

I'm going to have to remember this thread for next April Fools Day.

I'm working on a giant battery operated bug zapper that you place in camp and it kills all the bugs so you can have a bug-free campsite."

Electric fences have been used out West in grizzly country for at least 20 years.

tumblehome: "

Blatz: "I thought I stumbled across an Onion article. But you guys are serious."

I'm going to have to remember this thread for next April Fools Day.


I'm working on a giant battery operated bug zapper that you place in camp and it kills all the bugs so you can have a bug-free campsite."

Until you have walked in the shoes of a person planning a BWCA hunt, you might want to reconsider the mockery.

I just returned from my 27th BWCAW trip a few days ago. We use a combination of the blue 30 liter barrels and hanging food packs. we had never had a problem until this trip, when a very large and smart male bear stole away with one barrel at sunrise. Long story.... This occurred on Moon lake. As you all know, it is difficult on many/most sites throughout the BWCA to find adequate branches for all your hanging needs with larger groups. I have now began to explore the addition of a portable electric fence to our routine.

I am most concerned with the driving of posts and the ground stake on many sites, due to a lack of soil, rocks and the potential availability of any soil for one or more posts. I don't necessarily like the idea of guy lines on the posts, as some (other forums) say that the bear can become entangled in them and pull the fence down, rendering it ineffective.

I would like to hear from those who have used one, specifically in BWCA. How do you install in tricky sites and provide an effective ground...especially in solid rock situations? Pour water on the area before deploying? Multiple grounds with extension conductors? If a bear is standing on solid rock, and the ground is in nearby soil, is he insulated? etc.......

I agree w/ the issues to get a good ground. I've put in plenty of electric fence in perfect Iowa soils and still have ground issues at times. How to (A) get a ground spike into anything is an issue at many sites and then (B) figuring out how to stake it out if it's also rock in a lot of areas.

I do agree w/ the bear entangling the fence issue. If you're having to tie out the posts or wires here and there and it can smell food, it may trip on the tie-out and mess up the whole thing. Not necessarily take down the whole fence but if it gets wires to touch stuff or land on the ground that's it.

What sort of battery are people powering these with? That you can portage in?
We used solar charging full size 12v vehicle batteries but that of course isn't very fun to carry more than 4 feet at a time.

Our guys would all trip into the wire during the five times a night they have to get up. The next morning they would tie me up with the bear fence, coat me in honey, and leave me for the bears.

One of the links I posted above has a link to this excellent resource with answers to many of the questions posed here:

Living With Predators Resource Guide

Because I hope to have a massive quantity of meat hanging in camp, possibly for more than a day, I chose to use a solar-powered charger that cranks out something like 5000 volts. The weight is not an issue because the hunt involves no portaging by design. Depending on the number and IQ of my companions, I might use the smaller charger mentioned above by MReid if I were portaging or hiking in.

Thanks for that document. I had ferreted out a lot of information from various sources. Nice that you have in one place. I am gathering bits and pieces to build my own based on the USFS tech tip in your link. I am only building a small fence for food protection. 30 feet of 9 conductor poly rope
X 7 strands. Hot/neutral configuration. Same energizer as the UDAP food fence. I still struggle with the ground issue in bwca soil, but I guess I'll just have to experiment.

I am intrigued by this electric fence thing. Is there anyone who has photos of it being set up in a canoe campsite (BW, Q, WCPP, WPP...)

This a photo from a river trip by Brian Johnston and his paddling colleague. I found it on myccr while I was researching a Kazan river trip into Baker Lake (Nunavut). Their route was from Parker lake out to Rankin Inlet (Hudson Bay). The photo shows their electric fence set-up.

dznf0g: "Thanks for that document. I had ferreted out a lot of information from various sources. Nice that you have in one place. I am gathering bits and pieces to build my own based on the USFS tech tip in your link. I am only building a small fence for food protection. 30 feet of 9 conductor poly rope
X 7 strands. Hot/neutral configuration. Same energizer as the UDAP food fence. I still struggle with the ground issue in bwca soil, but I guess I'll just have to experiment. "

The one thing that is essential in my mind is a fence tester. Without it, a fence user might do "stupid" things and pay the price in the middle of the night. Or at noon, if you're mid-Trail, apparently ...

Jackfish: "I am intrigued by this electric fence thing. Is there anyone who has photos of it being set up in a canoe campsite (BW, Q, WCPP, WPP...)"

Stand by. Last year's plan was thwarted by this SOB:

gravelroad: "

dznf0g: "Thanks for that document. I had ferreted out a lot of information from various sources. Nice that you have in one place. I am gathering bits and pieces to build my own based on the USFS tech tip in your link. I am only building a small fence for food protection. 30 feet of 9 conductor poly rope
X 7 strands. Hot/neutral configuration. Same energizer as the UDAP food fence. I still struggle with the ground issue in bwca soil, but I guess I'll just have to experiment. "

The one thing that is essential in my mind is a fence tester. Without it, a fence user might do "stupid" things and pay the price in the middle of the night. Or at noon, if you're mid-Trail, apparently ..."

I indeed did purchase a tester.

Finished product

One thing you might consider is to use rods you can drive into the ground to support the wires, without needing to guy it out. With external guys, a bear may stumble into them and drop the whole system, or at least short out the hot wires, leaving your contents vulnerable. Another option, if not self supporting, is to brace the corners from the inside with rods, thus not having any supporting structure vulnerable to external mishap.

I initially used no guys. They are fiberglass posts. In order to keep the lines from sagging, there does need to be some tension. Unfortunately guy lines are necessary.

I would like to use internal braces, but have had no luck in finding a way to bracket them to the posts.....some kind of pocket bracket. Posts are 3/8". Are you aware of such a bracket?

dznf0g: "I would like to use internal braces, but have had no luck in finding a way to bracket them to the posts.....some kind of pocket bracket. Posts are 3/8". Are you aware of such a bracket?"

This feels like something 3d printers could do.

Yes, 3D printer would be the answer, but I don't have access to one. I can visualize the exact bracket I would like to make.

I could modify the clips to the point where the rope attachment just barely is long enough to hold the rope and pop off if disturbed.



In other words trim it down to just above the rope attachment point. the posts are driven in the ground 6". I don't think, realistically, I can plan on a deeper drive in many soil locations.

Ok, not very elegant, and in proof of concept form right now...but by using 2 of the wire clips and, perhaps a bolt and wingnut, this seems to work. quite sturdy even with a lot of hand pressure.

Quick mockup, struts work

dznf0g: "Quick mockup, struts work "

Nice--I think that will work much better than guys. Note that if you're in moose country, they have a tendency to walk right through electric fences. Also, you might be able to get away with fewer lines--three lines is common for bears. I can't remember if we did two hot and a ground, or three hot. You just need for them to stick their nose on one! I think four flat feet makes them well grounded!

MReid: "

dznf0g: "Quick mockup, struts work "

Nice--I think that will work much better than guys. Note that if you're in moose country, they have a tendency to walk right through electric fences. Also, you might be able to get away with fewer lines--three lines is common for bears. I can't remember if we did two hot and a ground, or three hot. You just need for them to stick their nose on one! I think four flat feet makes them well grounded!"

USFS requires 7 horizontal lines (recommends 12) with 3 conductor strands per required (recommended is 9). I am running 7 wires with 9 conductors each.

They also require 2 led lights on the fence. This ALLEGEDLY scares off animals....or makes the fence more visible. This seems anecdotal, as I have found no scientific studies online....but it is required. There are moose in BWCA, but not really common in the camp site areas. I have only seen them in the rivers.

dznf0g:
USFS requires 7 horizontal lines (recommends 12) with 3 conductor strands per required (recommended is 9). I am running 7 wires with 9 conductors each.

They also require 2 led lights on the fence. This ALLEGEDLY scares off animals....or makes the fence more visible. This seems anecdotal, as I have found no scientific studies online....but it is required. There are moose in BWCA, but not really common in the camp site areas. I have only seen them in the rivers."

These recommendations came out after I was working with fences. Note that they specifically reference grizzly bears. On the Alsek-Tatshenshini (an agency trip), we used mesh similar to the UDAP offering. Coastal brown bears are not worth toying with.

Usfs also allows mesh. It just has to have the minimum strands.
It appears to me that they tested udac food fence and wrote their specs around it.

I know almost nothing about bear fences. So, what happens if a person trips one of these?

I got too close to mine several times. You get a 6400 volt shock. Only milliamps of current though, so not harmful to humans nor animals. Gets your attention though.

I used a 10ft high 5 wire fence to keep deer out of my garden. After installing I “hand tested” it and got a decent but not painful shock. Later that year remembering the results of the test I decided to slip through the fence rather than walk around to turn it off. Turns out bare feet and rubber boots are a huge difference. It gave me a muscle tensing jolt! These things are no joke if you are completely grounded.

Bjmd28: "I used a 10ft high 5 wire fence to keep deer out of my garden. After installing I “hand tested” it and got a decent but not painful shock. Later that year remembering the results of the test I decided to slip through the fence rather than walk around to turn it off. Turns out bare feet and rubber boots are a huge difference. It gave me a muscle tensing jolt! These things are no joke if you are completely grounded. "

When I was building them, I tested them a) with my boots on, and b) in just socks. I was not willing to test them barefooted. A voltage meter works a lot better!

Proof of concept was obtained this past week for a (sadly unsuccessful) bear hunt on Seagull. Penetration with the poles and the ground rod was no issue, and I only guyed out one corner. You won't see it on the video, but the fence tester maxed out at 10,000 volts. :-)

Fortress of Solitude