I have been bringing up groups of men to the BWCA for many years, 6 to 18 each year (we divide into separate smaller groups when we leave the outfitter). We started out knowing nothing and rented everything but our clothes. By third year, we rented only canoes.

Then the meals got more and more elaborate, with big breakfasts and dinners, baked goods in the evening, etc.

What I realized the last 5 years was that when one person plans the trip, buys the food, cooks the food and handles the camp kitchen... that is pretty much all he does. I found that I was getting up at 6 AM to get breakfast together, cooking and then serving, and by the time cleanup was done, it was 9:00. Dinner started at 4:00 and wasn't done until 6:00. Then we baked things in the reflector and dutch ovens to eat around the campfire. More cleanup.

There was also the dynamic of one or two guys that would pitch in and help by getting water for the gravity filters, and starting and keeping the fire going. But the rest pretty much just hung out, fishing, talking, sitting in front of the fire, or waiting for the food to be done.

I am so done with this. IF I go back up, we do it under backpacking protocols. Each guy brings his own jetboil and whatever he wants to eat. He can eat whenever he wants to. All the guys have water filtration so they are on their own for that as well.

I used to enjoy planning the trip, meals, and bringing the camp gear. No more. I come home exhausted, and it takes a week to clean, wash, sanitize, and dry out all the group gear I brought, along with my own. I realize now why moms never liked camping. . .(they did all the work).

Ocky... with all due respect, it took you 20 years to figure that out? The more I read your post, the more pissed off I was getting. If it's not a team effort, I'd tell those guys to go pound sand.

Everyone does something. If you're not cooking, you can help with prep. If you're not cooking or helping with prep, you can clean fish... or do the dishes. If you're going to eat what someone else is making, you can make the dessert... or clean the reflector oven or the dutch oven (I hope you're not carrying a heavy cast iron model).

You can't turn into a one-man show unless you let it happen. And if those guys are so stinking lazy that they can't think for themselves and realize that you're doing all the work while they're sitting on their asses, drinking whiskey and smoking cigarettes, well, they don't need to come along anymore.

part of the issue the last two years was COVID. I only allowed one guy to fill and run the Platypus systems, and one guy in each camp cooked, served, and washed the dishes. . . .the idea is that only one person handled anything food related for the group. It seems to work as we brought 18 up last year, and 6 this year and no COVID cases.

What I am questioning is the whole idea of a group kitchen, food prep and cooking. I have talked to others that go up in groups and everyone brings their own dehydrated food, backpack type stove, and handles their own cooking and water filtration. That solves 90% of the planning, prep and in camp work.

I can certainly understand why you want to make changes! It is definitely no fun when you do all the work before, during, and after a trip.

Another possibility would be to assign meal responsibility, clean up, etc before your trip. Be sure to discuss this with the group so they have some input into what chores they each want to do (and you don't become the mean dictator). Then everyone knows what they are expected to do, and that you will not be doing everything. And if no one steps up, then maybe they don't need to come. It is your vacation too.

Some questions I am going to go through with our guys before next year. . .furnished by guys that have canoe camped for decades:

1. Would I die if I don't take this? (start with only the essentials)

2. If I didn't use it, eat it or touch it last year why not leave it at home?

3. does my food pack weigh more then my canoe? (if so, replace with dehydrated foods)

They also suggested:

bring the lightest, smallest highest quality gear needed for the trip

leave the saws, axes and heavier tools at home and commit to only using wood that is down and available.

I’d say bringing a folding saw Is a good idea. Good for firewood in camp. Good for getting a small to medium tree that blocked a portage out of the way. If god forbid a tree fell and pinned someone. Axe and hatchet leave at home!!

I like to plan and prep trips. I enjoy it but I’ve only done a few now. I would have expected my buddies to pitch in and help out on trip. Would have had my first non family trip with buddies but it got cancelled when the BWCA closed. Challenge if you packed everything is then letting others help since you know the plan.

In scouting it was an assigned rotating roster. I’d recommend that. As for covid I’d say once out in trip I wouldn’t even worry about it. In fairness though you’ve been going with some large diverse groups from the sounds of it.

You might also want to downsize who you go with and what you provide to a core group of individuals you know will put in effort. Maybe do that for a few years and expand out to introducing more new individuals to canoeing when you feel good about it again.

I’d personally be horrified to sit in camp not helping watching you do all the work.

Ryan

part of the issue is that I am a men's director for our church and we open up the trips to all men in the church, as well as their friends. We don't actually choose those that go.

Some years the guys are better at helping then others. I used to enjoy the planning, ordering food sorting through and packing the food containers and kitchen gear. In the past I worked with a team of cooks (one in each camp) planning the meals, buying food, and preparing the meals.

However, in talking with a couple of the guys that went this year I think we are ready to try a "every man for himself trip". I will point the guys to where they can order/buy dehydrated meals, and they will bring their own stove (jet boil, etc) and individual cook set. In our camp this year, with 6 men, we went through two Playpus 6 litre bags of water twice a day. Next year we are looking at everyone being in charge of their own water filtration.

I guess where I am getting to is that the thing we enjoy is eating together around the fire. That can be done without the work of coordinating the food and cooking for everyone as a whole. It could be the other camps will stay with the old system. Mine is going "you are on your own".

How do I get on the list to trip with you? Haha. I've been extremely fortunate with all of my tripping partners. I like to do the planning and outfitting but everyone wants to be, and is, involved. When we are at camp everyone naturally finds their sweet spot and we all mesh. Everything gets done but nobody is organizing the effort, everyone just seems to know what needs to be done and jumps in. What's strange is that many of us only see or even talk to each other once a year, sometimes the others have never even met. I have never tripped with more than 4 people which I think helps because it's easier to identify what needs to be done and to see that nobody has claimed the task so they take it on. Someone allows like to build and tend to the fire, they also doing any cooking that is done over the fire. Someone always like to make sure we have an ample supply of water. Someone like to rig and hang the food pack, set up the tarp, put up clothes lines. Someone likes to organize the campsite, secure the canoes, packs, trash, etc. I like to cook. When the meal is over everyone jumps in on the dishes. So far it's been a perfect system.

Good luck, and enjoy your next trip. You deserve it!

Fritty

Pretty much exactly why I gave up taking large family/friends groups. Now I mostly solo or go with a friend or two who knows the routine. My favorite tripping partners are the ones who know what to do without having to be asked or even talk much about it.

deerfoot: "Pretty much exactly why I gave up taking large family/friends groups. Now I mostly solo or go with a friend or two who knows the routine. My favorite tripping partners are the ones who know what to do without having to be asked or even talk much about it."

Same here. There’s only two of us and we have the routine down pretty well. We both contribute and really don’t have to give it any thought.

A couple thoughts….

- I also own most of the gear and am in charge of most planning aspects of our trips. I do all of this as a labor of love as it is my passion. However, all of the problems you mention while on the trip are unacceptable. If the freeloaders you talk about are good friends and you enjoy their company, tell them what is going on and ask them to pitch in. They will more than likely be embarrassed and oblivious to what is going on. A lot of people who aren’t experienced don’t know all of the little things that need to happen in order to make things run smoothly. If they are not good friends or are not worth the trouble, don’t invite them anymore.

- Whoever cooks should never clean up. If your buddies don’t insist on cleaning up after you cook them dinner they kind of suck

- Consider freeze dried (mountain house, etc.) and other no cook meals. I can eat fancy food in town. Time spent on food prep/cleanup on trips takes away from world class fishing opportunities or relaxing in camp with friends

- Any time you fill your water bottle from the group gravity bags you should be filling the dirty bag. Again, if you don’t do this you pretty much suck.

I think it's all about expectations: what you expect of and for yourself and what you expect of and for the others that you bring.

Like you and Hammertime, I too own most of the gear and, like him, I do most of the organizing/planning because that is my passion. My further passion is seeing others--particularly newbies--have a great time on their wilderness trip and therefore I expect to, and don't mind, doing a lot of the extra work so they have time to take it all in and enjoy. Of course I do also expect some help at camp from those that I invite and that is communicated clearly during the planning process. With those expectations pre-communicated, I have little problem leading my fellow campers through those expectations once we are out on the trail. This still means that I'll often need to step in and do what is probably more than my "share" so as to help others get the most out of their trip. As group leader, I accept that. This approach has worked well for us as group campers and I would think is a lot more fun than six or eight individual all responsible for themselves and doing their own thing.

ockycamper, the generosity of a giving spirit is a wonderful thing. That's what you've done for a long, long time. It's overdue for the DIY theme. It's no fun doing someone else's camp tasks when they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. It's carrying extra baggage and that's no fun. I go solo only but I can clearly understand your frustrations.
If the numbers of the group drop, it's a good thing. Those that remain in the group are the ones you can share true comradery, and rely on.

ockycamper: "part of the issue is that I am a men's director for our church and we open up the trips to all men in the church, as well as their friends. We don't actually choose those that go.
"

Sound to me like you are a church group guide and it's time to hang it up.

If you were going with the same group of fellas each year, the tasks, chores, and responsibilities would have been split up and divvied up years ago.

I like the planning and organizing of meals. One person responsible makes for a good plan. We tried "each person bring a meal". We ended up with two meals of Polish sausage and the Asian Surprise Meal was "surprise, I forgot to bring it".

We have a few of the same guys every year, but a lot of new ones. We also may have one camp or three depending on the number going.

I have a lot of gear that I used to loan out. I did not mind at all loaning out gear to guys making their first time trip. However, we had a couple of guys that after three years of going still wanted to borrow hammocks, underquilts, tarps. I solved that by selling or giving away most of my gear (keeping what I needed for trips with my son and son in laws, and grandkids). I now tell guys 90 days out to start getting their gear together and that there won't be any loaned out.

We went to dehydrated meals a couple of years ago so that cut back on cooking time and weight. We also have guys that pretty much only bring hammocks so that cuts down on weight.

One idea I might switch to is only 4 guys in a camp site. When we do 6 or more that means a two burner stove, and extra pots and cook gear. If only 4 guys, we can go with one cook set and a jetboil.

One humerous side note that happened this year. Due to the fire ban we lost most of our guys. We had 6 all in one camp. One of the guys was the cook for one of the other camps the last few years. He mentioned he went through 5 green propane cannisters for the week (four guys in his camp). I went through 1 1/2 cannisters for the week with 6 guys in mine last year. This year he was in my camp and I found out why. He brought a large coffee pot/perculator. He would fill it up and it took 30 minutes to get the coffee ready for his liking. But then I found out he was leaving the burner on the two burner stove on simmer for a couple of hours to "keep the coffee hot".

ockycamper: "part of the issue the last two years was COVID. I only allowed one guy to fill and run the Platypus systems, and one guy in each camp cooked, served, and washed the dishes. . . .the idea is that only one person handled anything food related for the group."

While I agree that camp needs to have shared duties- I hate to gather wood for the fire, but I like to cook. My buddy hates to cook but likes to process firewood. Match-Match.

But I don't understand your grumbling..... Your first post made it sound like no one would help you out... but then your second post said you only allowed one person to do water and one person to cook..... then you complained about only one person cooking and how the water was too much... So are you disappointed that people listened to your rules? Did you mean one person per the entire trip, or did you mean one person each day was in charge, and they should have alternated but didn't?

I personally don't like the idea of multiple kitchens. BUT, I also go with the same people, not a random group.

I get where you're coming from but see some potential issues. The replies have been great. If everyone brings stoves and pots and all that....you'll probably end up carrying way more gear as a group. More portage trips? Everyone going to bring their own fry pan cause they all want to eat their own fish?

The way we do it....whoever cooks doesn't clean up. If someone spends time making a meal the others do the dishes or dispose of fish carcass or whatever. Sharing the duties and rotating is what gets everyone experience. What would happen if you got sick on day 2 and couldn't cook? (non Covid...or an injury or whatever) What if you're off fishing and someone wants to make hot chocolate? No one knows how to use the stove, no one knows where the right gear is. If everyone cooks a little, does some dishes, puts up the tarp, tears tents down....they all know how to do it all after that first time or two.

I take lots of newbies...they're usually eager to learn and help. Hey can you start the fire? Sure. Can you flip the pancakes when they're ready? Sure. Can you fill this with water and bring it back? Sure. Share the load....which spreads the knowledge. Which will only help to share the load more.

THEGrandRapids: "

ockycamper: "part of the issue the last two years was COVID. I only allowed one guy to fill and run the Platypus systems, and one guy in each camp cooked, served, and washed the dishes. . . .the idea is that only one person handled anything food related for the group."

While I agree that camp needs to have shared duties- I hate to gather wood for the fire, but I like to cook. My buddy hates to cook but likes to process firewood. Match-Match.


But I don't understand your grumbling..... Your first post made it sound like no one would help you out... but then your second post said you only allowed one person to do water and one person to cook..... then you complained about only one person cooking and how the water was too much... So are you disappointed that people listened to your rules? Did you mean one person per the entire trip, or did you mean one person each day was in charge, and they should have alternated but didn't?


I personally don't like the idea of multiple kitchens. BUT, I also go with the same people, not a random group."

+1 on a lot of your points. Also, as a church group, why was the annual trip still happening during COVID?

One of the types of tripping I liked the best was “group solos”. We all had our own everything. We’d share stuff often... but never relied on anyone. And with having our own permit we didn’t have to even camp together if we didn’t want. Seems like nobody likes the same foods anymore. Back in the 70’s I brought many groups in, never a complaint. Now you’d have to offer three different items on the menu. And solo kitchens are so small you hardly notice.

You can also divy up the duties once at the beginning of the trip, if people get tired of what they are doing, let THEM trade.

For example list the tasks that need to be done - fire (gathering wood, processing wood, starting, maintaining, snuffing out), water filtration, hanging/stashing food packs, securing canoes, clothes line, cooking, garbage collection/storing, setting up tents, rigging tarps, etc. List the tasks the night before you enter and let people volunteer/sign-up. Write it down on paper. Do this until all the tasks are done. Don't mention it again the remainder of the trip.

If Joe gets tired of being the fire builder, he can trade with someone else. Let it be known that whomever is the cook doesn't partake in dishes. Tell them that as a group 2-3 people will need to step up after each meal and take care of dishes.

Let them police themselves. If people know what needs to get done, and if you don't do it, they will step up and get it done (most of the time). If someone isn't doing their part, they don't get invited again.

ockycamper: "Some questions I am going to go through with our guys before next year. . .furnished by guys that have canoe camped for decades:


1. Would I die if I don't take this? (start with only the essentials)


2. If I didn't use it, eat it or touch it last year why not leave it at home?

"

Except the first aid kit! That's one thing you don't want to use, but still need to bring.

You’ve clearly been generous with your time and knowledge. One thing that can help just a tiny bit is looking at gear for ease of use. Is it something anyone can operate or will you be needed to do things. That’s one reason I like canister stoves over something with liquid gas that needs priming. Yes, priming isn’t that big a deal but canister stoves are easier and that means people can start cooking by themselves sooner during a trip.

Another thing that can help is making sure everyone has bought into the trip organization. Sometimes we have wound up making all the meals. One time we took all the dehydrated ingredients to the home of our friends that were coming and we all had fun creating meals. Then everyone was looking forward to cooking. Other times, and we are usually with experienced campers even if they are new to the BW, each couple brings a share of the dinners. Again, everyone cooks their nights.

But sometimes there are people with fewer skills. We took 6 of our nephews and their Dad once. The first few days I was burning out teaching them stuff and doing too much. But then they got it and I barely did anything for rest of the trip. They didn’t all do each chore but figured out what they wanted to do and split things up. We had a somewhat complex water filter and that became the domain of one of our nephews who was studying engineering. The youngest had just learned how to build a bunch of different types of fires in Boy Scouts. So he was usually making the fire.

We definitely didn’t do any dishes. We actually felt bad about not doing our share. But anytime my wife would offer that we would do them, one of them would jump to it. It turned out that when their Mom says, “I’m doing the dishes,”it really means, “these dishes aren’t doing themselves and if I have to do them then I’m not gonna be happy and then you’re not going to be happy.” We didn’t realize we had hit on a magic phrase.

Anyway, run your trips how works for you. You are a friend helping friends and not a guide. It is your vacation too.

And anyone who doesn’t pull their share doesn’t go again. I will say a trip where everyone is looking for what needs doing is a joy. If they also know how to do everything, it is relaxing. But teaching is fun too, if you have enthusiastic students.

I get the burn out factor of planning and leading large trips. I've lead a number of scout and family trips. My last two trips were with just my oldest son. They were fantastic! We spent a total of about 3 hours packing and 1 hour in the grocery store. Maybe offer to help with planning for the large group. But, treat yourself to a small group trip with some hard working grizzled veterans that know what they are doing.

I really sympathize with you.
I have been going to the BWCA for 11 years now, but I have been taking a couple friends, and my significant other for the last 5 or so years as the one "knowledgeable" person in the group.

It's nice to introduce people to the area, and everyone is new to these types of trips at one time. It's also nice to not feel like an unpaid guide.

My SO was pretty sad and disappointed when I went on a week long trip with a friend that knew his stuff, and it was hard to explain to her that even though I enjoy trips in the BWCA with her it's a completely different experience for me.
The trip I just came back from was more refreshing and relaxing than every trip I had taken since 2016 because we both knew exactly what needed to be done and nothing was left undone, and the work was shared almost directly down the middle.



If you are worrying about EVERYTHING everyone else is doing when you are out on a trip you really aren't experiencing the same trip they are.

Thanks for all your input! May give it one more year with your ideas. . .

smaller groups. . .4 per camp site

group planning of the trip and the menu

everyone assigned to a task before leaving

possibly try a "group solo" trip where everyone brings their own food, cook gear, and water filtration as an experiement.

Thanks again

Buy a solo canoe...

used a Prism this last year loved it.

We are similar in that I've been taking guys for 20 years plus to the BW. Started with complete outfitting and even a guide in the early years. Learned things. Progressed to planning and bringing own food, no guide. Then started buying own gear - boat, tents, packs. Now we just rent however many canoes we need. But whoever went we always planned menu together, shopped for groceries together, packed good together. When out breakfasts are cereal bars, lunches various wraps with foil tuna, salmon, pb&j, salami and cheese. Dinners we splurge. But we all worked together and took turns washing dishes and cleaning up. I always have a great crew, mostly my Veteran paddlers. You teach and cultivate expectations. If someone doesn't meet the standards, they are not invited back. Don't give up. Teach to work together.

As a possibly paid church leader, you have little say on who gets to go. After any health issues are ferrited out, you will have to change by educating your group in what has to be done and then divvy it up. Stay with the written work schedule, even if things do not get done at all. If the group does not rebel against the non-workers, then you stay at the first camp until the group (not you in any way) fixes the problem. You will likely have new leaders come forward as some will not want the trip end on your first camp site at the end of your week. Remember to get the expectations written down with copies for each member.

If you are not willing to step up your efforts to diversify the labor, then suck it up and consider this trip a part of your job description. Or you can stay away from their group trip for a year or so.

I am betting the trip will go on as previously and your post is mostly about venting. Keep us posted next year if not sooner if you are going to implement changes. Good luck.

Thanks. I am not a paid staff member and actually own and operate my own company. I just volunteer as men's coordinator for our church

We'll have a meeting with the guys late spring next year and go over these issues. Particularly: everyone has a task, we need to lighten up our gear, and everyone needs to both give input and pitch in.

I like the idea of groups of four.
When I set up trips, I assign meals to each person.
So you might get breakfast, lunch, and supper for day one.
Another person gets the same for day two.
You don’t always get three meals per person.
If the days don’t match the number of people you might get 2 or 4 meals per person,
Also the rule is cooks don’t do dishes.
Even the little ones get to plan a meal, consequently when the small ones plan meals we have a lot of mac and cheese.

Some questions:

1. Would the trips stop if you stepped away completely?
If yes, then they are not important enough to the rest of the group. Stop feeling guilty about not wanting to do as much. It is clearly something nice that happens, but, not nice enough for them to take ownership in their experience.
If no, who would become the leaders? Tap into that for your help and for who to educate on the process of planning trips.

2. Why are you doing this for your church? Is it a ministry for you? Is it still fulfilling that part of your life that it once was? Do the groups give and receive in fellowship during this process? How can you make it more about that fellowship? Not just the trip, but the planning and preparation also.

3. Is it still worth your time? This is your vacation too. To spend that time frustrated is not fair to you or the group. They are not getting the best of you when you are not feeling appreciated/supported.

I sincerely hope this resolves positively for you. I can tell the BW is too important to you for you to go there and feel anything but the awe it deserves.

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes the BWCA is very important to me. I have done oudoors ministry for years prior to the BWCA including river trips, rafting, hunting and fishing trips. However the BWCA falls in to a class all its own. It is there you can most see the handiwork of God in creation, and hear the sounds of creation. There are no cell phones, appts, calls, recorded music, etc. The highlight of my trips is often the reaction of a new tripper to the first clear night showing the expanse of stars.

The tiredness is on me. As others have pointed out, I need to do a better job including the entire group in the planning and job assignments. I have operated in the past with the idea that guys would just "pitch in", but that often does not happen.

I will take the poster's advice and give it another shot: Planning meetings that include everyone's input, clear expectations on each tripper's job while in camp before going, and trying to simplify the entire trip to make it easier and more enjoyable for all. At the end of the day we don't go up there for all the kitchen and camp gear, and meals beyond what we even eat at home. Its about sharing our faith and being in the Lord's creation.

Thanks for all your input!

You're a good Man. Keep at it.

A couple thoughts for you Ockycamper:
I was in a similar position with leading men's groups to the BWCAW. The goal was to introduce more people to the greatest place on earth to experience God's creation. Everyone loved it and each year it was a highlight for our men's groups. After a few years of tripping with these groups I began to experience some of the feelings that you are describing. On the last night of one of our trips the guys asked "how did we do?" I felt led to share that "you did great and your ready to be on your own next year". They looked at me and laughed but I was dead serious. The next year I took an extra long trip with my kids and grandkids and the group took a trip on their own and we both had great times. All this to say that it is ok to pass the torch and stay refreshed and you can always go back to leading trips if you get the itch.
Blessings

One other note.
Everyone that goes with me knows that if they don’t pitch in and help, there won’t be a next time.

Captn Tony: "One other note.
Everyone that goes with me knows that if they don’t pitch in and help, there went be a next time."

+1

Our group went through the exact same transition. Our first trip was 1999 and it was a group trip, group planning, group tent, group eat, chores divided...it was great because it was our first trip, but we had one guy who appointed himself the leader. There were 5 of us total and two of the others were fine being told what to do all the time and myself and one other fella grew tired of it rather quickly. By the end of the 4 day trip, there was real tension. It was a constant nagging about the firewood being stacked wrong or we're using the water pump wrong. The guy sucked.

We gave it one more go - doing the whole group thing, with the discussion up front about there's no trip leader, everyone will help out, but it doesn't need to be scheduled and directed...We took the trip and the "self appointed trip leader" member struggled reigning in his desire to tell everyone what to do.

Year 3 - I bought a solo canoe and tent and informed everyone I'd be bringing my own food and would be self sufficient. I was completely self outfitted. In regards to gathering firewood, each morning after fishing, I would cut and split a large stack.

Year 4 - a second member also went solo... One trip member had dropped at this point and self appointed trip leader now only had one other member to make his lacky.

Year 5 - lacky quit and self appointed trip member opted out as well. 2- solo's trip.

Year 6 - 2 solo's trip

Year 7 - other two original (non self appointed trip leader) trip members come back and tandem together.

Years 8-22 - This combination of 4 members has gone in various arrangements over the years, sometimes tandems, sometimes solos, sometimes a mix, sometimes two of us,, three of us, all four. Other's have occasionally joined for a trip here or there, but we all outfit and feed ourselves. No group gear and it's worked.

That happened to us this year. Typically we are in three camps. I lead one camp, and two other guys lead the other. One of the guys has become progressively worse about telling the others how they are not doing things right... water filtration not right, the way we do the fire isn't right, food choices not what he would have done.

This year, he was in my camp as we had only six total. One of the guys was a seventeen year Boy Scout leader and was excellent doing camp fires. This guy was constantly telling him he was doing it wrong. Both were in the same canoe, and when paddling he would tell the other that he wasn't sitting correctly in the seat.

I was in charge of the meal planning and cooking. I chose not to bring scrambled egg mix this year as we had enough food already and I didn't want to have to throw food away. He got upset that I had not brought eggs because it is not breakfast without eggs.

The last thing was the stove. I typically go through 1-1/2 green cans of propane for a week trip for six guys. This year I had one can run out by the morning of the second day. When looking into it, I realized he insisted on bringing a percolator coffee pot which took 30 minutes to "perk" the coffee, then let it sit and simmer all morning on the stove to keep the coffee hot. He won't be in my camp site again.

Frankly if we had the five guys without him the week would have been totally different.

"Years 8-22 - This combination of 4 members has gone in various arrangements over the years, sometimes tandems, sometimes solos, sometimes a mix, sometimes two of us,, three of us, all four. Other's have occasionally joined for a trip here or there, but we all outfit and feed ourselves. No group gear and it's worked."

I really like this comment. One of the goals in going to BWCA is to teach me to be self sufficient. With a person in charge of each camp, making most of the decisions we are creating dependence, not self reliance.

I will talk to the guys in the spring. Probably will be back up to 16-18 men again. Each camp can do as they choose. I will float the idea of running one camp (mine) as described above, with the goal of teaching each guy in the camp how to do BWCA on his own or bring his own group in.

Thanks for the ideas.

It makes sense to let people choose a camp based on whether they like the way it will be organized. There are just a lot of different ways to do a BW trip.

This extends to how we do each task. One of my friends spent several summers running geology field crews in Alaska. His advice is to realize that there are 15 different ways to do a task. One of them is better than all the rest and two are really bad. So if you are a leader and watching someone do something, just let them unless you are sure they are doing one of the two really bad ways or you are sure you know the one best way. But most of the time, you should just shut up and let them do it their way.

I've struggled with this sort of thing over the years myself. I love bringing new people to the BWCA and I don't mind doing all the cooking. When I manage the food, it means I am in control of at least that aspect. The worst times I've had have revolved around eating the terrible meal that someone else cooked because we wanted things to be "equitable" and I gave the spatula to the wrong guy. I think a little discussion of chores for the new folks goes a long way.

Also a general point to be made for a newbie - if you find yourself doing nothing, think about doing something to improve the camp, but verbalize it and ask about it so you don't go off and do something really dumb, like percolate coffee and waste fuel. :)

I've had my challenges where I fear that some way I act or something I do will cause a fellow traveler to have a bad time. But the truth is, it's so beautiful - if you get out there and have a bad time, I don't have to take responsibility for that. If you can't find a way to let go of your anger on a lake that's like glass, paddling through the wilderness, maybe it's not the guide's fault. :)

I too was that guy for 25 years. Always the go to for food, planning and equipment, always coming home exhausted from our BWCA trips until, 6 years ago when I was an adult leader for my sons Boy Scout Troup. Before we left the landing after the outfitter dropped us off I told the boys. "This is your trip, make of it what you will. I'm hear as a resource, but I will not be doing anything on this trip. I got drove you here and paid the outfitter, I am done." It sounded harsh even as I was saying it, but the other adult leader/dad on the trip said "Amen".
One of the nicest trips I've made. The boys not only responded positively but seemed to relish being "on their own". Empower your team and hold them to a high level of accountability then, get out of the way.
P.S. Love my friends and family, solo is the way to go.

Thanks so much for your story. I am sure there are a lot of guys like us, who have planned trips for years, brought most of the gear, planned the meals and bought the food, cooked the food, pulled the permits, booked the outfitter, and made sure there was water filtration. What we find out is that by not turning the men loose they are simply on a guided trip and don't learn to do wilderness tripping themselves. And we come home exhausted.

Next year we will probably have 16-20 men going up again. We will have a planning meeting where everyone has input in late spring. Individual camps/groups will be formed then. My group is going to be the group solo as discussed in this thread. I will be encouraging the others to try it as well. If we keep doing it like we have done all these years, with one person in each camp planning the food, buying the food, cooking the food, and bringing equipment for those that don't want to invest in any on their own. . .we are creating dependency, not self reliance.

In 1989, myself and another adult scout leader, went on a Q trip for 8 days and 7 nights. By night 3, the scouts had a rebellion against us as we were not doing nearly enough of the work in the portages and around camp, including meal time. To resolve this issue, they almost demanded we step up our efforts.

The resolution was to divide up all community gear such as our canoe, food, cooking gear, tent for us, etc. This worked out well for us and not so much for them. By day 5, we were asked to reunite which we did. They did not complain again about the division of work as before or any suggestions we made the last couple of days.

As we watched their group dynamics develop, their struggles and lack of cohesion was very evident. Also, we watched as leaders came to the top and the non-productive in the group learned that they were going to go through another divorce or get with the program. By day 4, that was happening as they became functional.

The total reunion worked out well as the group decided to keep the dynamics they worked out and not blame adults for what actually became evident in the identification of the real issues in camp. All worked out and everyone learned from the trip.

ockycamper: "part of the issue the last two years was COVID. I only allowed one guy to fill and run the Platypus systems, and one guy in each camp cooked, served, and washed the dishes. . . .the idea is that only one person handled anything food related for the group. It seems to work as we brought 18 up last year, and 6 this year and no COVID cases.


What I am questioning is the whole idea of a group kitchen, food prep and cooking. I have talked to others that go up in groups and everyone brings their own dehydrated food, backpack type stove, and handles their own cooking and water filtration. That solves 90% of the planning, prep and in camp work."

We have done it both ways. Everyone doing their own thing meant folks were leaving super early and getting back super late, and there was not bonding time around a camp fire, etc, etc. So we stated doing group breakfast and dinners.

That is GREAT, if you share the load, but we found out that 1 or 2 guys did all the cooking and camp work and that made it tough.

What the guys are doing now, and I have not been in a while, is they are each responsible for a couple dinner meals for the group, and lunch and breakfast are ON your own. So if you have 8 days in country and 4 guys, each guy is responsible end to end for 2 dinners........and no chump ass dinners either. :)

That seemed to work pretty good.

This past Cabin trip I did to vermillion, the 4 guys in our cabin shared cooking all meals and that was great.

Later,

Geo

Ioway: "I too was that guy for 25 years. Always the go to for food, planning and equipment, always coming home exhausted from our BWCA trips until, 6 years ago when I was an adult leader for my sons Boy Scout Troup. Before we left the landing after the outfitter dropped us off I told the boys. "This is your trip, make of it what you will. I'm hear as a resource, but I will not be doing anything on this trip. I got drove you here and paid the outfitter, I am done." It sounded harsh even as I was saying it, but the other adult leader/dad on the trip said "Amen".
One of the nicest trips I've made. The boys not only responded positively but seemed to relish being "on their own". Empower your team and hold them to a high level of accountability then, get out of the way.
P.S. Love my friends and family, solo is the way to go."

Outstanding: "Empower your team and hold them to a high level of accountability then, get out of the way."

GeoFisher: "

ockycamper: "part of the issue the last two years was COVID. I only allowed one guy to fill and run the Platypus systems, and one guy in each camp cooked, served, and washed the dishes. . . .the idea is that only one person handled anything food related for the group. It seems to work as we brought 18 up last year, and 6 this year and no COVID cases.



What I am questioning is the whole idea of a group kitchen, food prep and cooking. I have talked to others that go up in groups and everyone brings their own dehydrated food, backpack type stove, and handles their own cooking and water filtration. That solves 90% of the planning, prep and in camp work."

We have done it both ways. Everyone doing their own thing meant folks were leaving super early and getting back super late, and there was not bonding time around a camp fire, etc, etc. So we stated doing group breakfast and dinners.


That is GREAT, if you share the load, but we found out that 1 or 2 guys did all the cooking and camp work and that made it tough.


What the guys are doing now, and I have not been in a while, is they are each responsible for a couple dinner meals for the group, and lunch and breakfast are ON your own. So if you have 8 days in country and 4 guys, each guy is responsible end to end for 2 dinners........and no chump ass dinners either. :)


That seemed to work pretty good.


This past Cabin trip I did to vermillion, the 4 guys in our cabin shared cooking all meals and that was great.


Later,


Geo"

Early on we cooked BIG breakfasts and dinners. Real biscuits and gravy, breakfast casseroles, etc. Dinners were fresh veggies, steaks/brats, etc., even pizzas cooked in dutch ovens. It was a big hit but I was starting breakfast at 6 AM, and not done cleaning up until 9. Dinners started around 4 pm in prep, with cleanup not done until 6 pm. And that was with several guys doing dishes other then me.

It finally occured to me that we can eat that way back at home. These trips were about being out in a wilderness area. So we moved to all dehydrated foods. That helped, but still a lot of work for cooking a full breakfast with side item and dinners with two sides.

I believe it can be simplified with still having everyone together for meals. It just means everyone cooks their own food on their own stove, then we sit at as a group around the fire to eat. As nearly everyone in the group has gravity water filtration gear, I plan on telling the guys in my camp they are on their own for water.

Meals can still be first rate even if dehyrated (we have been using Camp Chow).

Step back and take a careful look at what you have been doing.
I started organizing trips in the 1960s. Experience teaches us that canoeing is a team sport. We need people that are compatible and willing to pitch in for the common good. Team players.

I never take groups over 8. I prefer 4. We take turns cooking dinner and cleaning up each night. I only invite certain types of people. We stay together on the river. No more all day dope smokers, tweekers or people that want to drink all day. My favorite trips are me and my dog, maybe my brother. Neat and simple. The older I get the less patience I have for dumb behavior.

There is a tendancy to supply a lot of the equipment. Sometimes I charge people rent to pay for wear and tear, I have people make a donation like a new throw rope. YOu have to teach people how you want to be treated. Don't forget that layover days, and less mileage are your friends too.

Different perspective entirely -- I live to bring the joy of a great, adventurous northwoods fishing trip to the members of my group. In fairness, it's a small group including me, my son, and my dad. My son is now 14 and it's been a lot of fun watching him take more and more initiative to help me out with all the work. My dad, on the other hand... But he's my dad, what can I say? I owe him this and a lot more. He makes up for it in more ways than I can count. Sometimes the trip feels a little like "work," but then again, it's about the best kind of work I could imagine.

The issue I face, and others that are group leaders, is that we are not taking relatives and often not close friends. As a church leader, I don't "pick" the group and would never tell someone they can't come. This year was unique in that with the closing, and the fire ban, we only had 6 and they were all in one camp. In the past we had 14-18 divided into 3 camps. Each camp had their own leader and own personality. They guy that bossed everyone around this year had a camp of newbies the last two years and it worked for him. Our other camp last year had a group leader that let everyone pretty much bring whatever they wanted. . .yet they still cooked group meals. It ended up with 3 full size two burner stoves, 5-6 jet boils, and they brought back out half the food the brought in.

The last two prior years in my group guys pitched in and it worked. We are already talking about meeting for next year and have three camps again, all with different "styles".