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01/09/2022 11:43AM  
I am wondering if anyone else has ever had trouble getting a satellite signal for their Garmin, Spot, Zoleo, etc. while canoeing the northwoods?

This past September in Wabakimi on the last morning of my 20 day trip, I woke up to unexpected light rain falling on the tent. I grabbed my Garmin InReach Mini and tried to get a basic weather update but could not get a signal. I had used my Garmin Mini inside my tent many times before without trouble and I did not think I was under especially dense tree canopy. My battery was 80%+.

So I went outside to my tarp for breakfast and tried again. Still no satellite signal after several attempts. Again, I had used under my tarp many times. I finally walked out in the rain and set it on an open rock ledge with no trees overhead, and nothing. The rain finally stopped as I packed up, the low cloud cover started to break up a bit, and finally I got my weather update after about an hour of trying.

The conditions seemed no different than a lot of the prior days, so I was surprised and a bit bothered. Was this a fluke of satellite positioning? A combination of extra-thick low clouds? User error?

I'm wondering if anyone has any theories, or has or has not had similar issues?
 
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01/09/2022 01:52PM  
I think that the longest I've waited for a weather report is something like 10 minutes. I can't recall ever having connection problems in rainy weather.

Perhaps upper atmosphere conditions were particularly bad on the day you had difficulties.

Edit: I guess that I should mention that I have an inReach Explorer, not a Mini.
 
01/09/2022 08:45PM  
Interesting that you mention it. My mini has always worked great except for a similar experience on the overcast last morning of a trip at the end of this October. I was heading out anyway so didn't wait around for it to get a fix, but I intended to try it out around home just to verify it's working. I never got around to doing that and convinced myself that it will be fine, but this note has been sitting on my desk since I got back.

 
MossBack
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01/10/2022 07:06AM  
I have a Garmin Explorer plus and I live way out in the country. I always have trouble connecting, even with zero overhead cover. Yet when I am in town, it connects almost immediately? When I first bought the device I had trouble everywhere I went. I called Garmin and they actually could pull up a log of all my failed attempts. So they sent me a new one. Puzzling? MB
 
kenpark23
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01/10/2022 08:13AM  
Sometimes are slower than others, but mine always connects within 5-10 minutes at most as long as I am outside of a building. I've used it from as far south as Oklahoma to as far north as Gates of the Arctic NP.
 
01/10/2022 10:21AM  
MossBack: " I have a Garmin Explorer plus and I live way out in the country. I always have trouble connecting, even with zero overhead cover. Yet when I am in town, it connects almost immediately? When I first bought the device I had trouble everywhere I went. I called Garmin and they actually could pull up a log of all my failed attempts. So they sent me a new one. Puzzling? MB"

That’s very weird, because I really doubt that by driving to town you are getting any closer to the satellites!
 
MossBack
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01/10/2022 11:00AM  
One explanation may be my proximity to the Crane Naval Depot, which is only 15 miles or so. There had been rumors of the military "Dithering" the local Satellite signals for security reasons. MB
 
andym
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01/10/2022 11:33AM  
Dithering was done to GPS in the early years to degrade the quality of locations without a military grade receiver that knew the algorithm. That was ended twice. The first time was temporarily for the first Gulf war because the army didn’t have enough military grade receivers. My wife was on a research cruise during the war and they could tell when it ended because the GPS fixes degraded. The second time was in 2000 when it was decided that the civilian uses were sufficiently important to give everyone better access.

But that dithering is done at the satellite end. There could be something else the military is doing by emitting noise at ground level but that could cause them problems too.

As for wet days, it is the moisture in the leaves that produces problems under a canopy. So more moisture in the atmosphere and see or rain on the leaves can increase the problem. I haven’t used my Inreach Explorer+ enough to have experienced that and I have used it on a very rainy day without a problem.

I did have a bit of trouble getting a weather map on my cell phone that day. We were on Lake One and trying to pick a time to paddle to the EP with two little kids while dodging thunderstorms. The lightning was giving the cell phone reception problems downloading radar maps.
 
01/10/2022 12:35PM  
The FCC does limit the transmitting power of sat communicators and the satellite constellations used are commercial and often in a fairly low orbit. GPS sat constellations on the other hand are higher often geosynchronous having better and longer coverage. Same for SarSat/ComSat constellations, all these are governmental sponsored and paid for. The sat communicators have to deal with power restrictions and satellite availability which include low angle line of sight.

Because I am not interested in communications I use a PLB with higher signal power limits and a higher sat constellation for better transmitting success.
I had made my decision but this article sealed it for me, Winter Hiking and Survival Guide The Death of Kate Matrosova

I'm not criticizing the use of sat communicators, but it is always good to know the limitations of the gear you use.

butthead
 
01/10/2022 01:41PM  
I noted in my trip report that one rainy day I was unable to get a weather update on my Garmin InReach mini despite almost immediate satellite acquisition and multiple attempts. I was able to send an OK message. I assumed it was a problem on the weather service end.
 
coffeetalk
senior member (65)senior membersenior member
  
01/10/2022 01:43PM  
My Delorme Inreach had no trouble signalling a supererogatory SOS from deep down in my pack last summer...
 
01/10/2022 02:25PM  
butthead: "The FCC does limit the transmitting power of sat communicators and the satellite constellations used are commercial and often in a fairly low orbit. GPS sat constellations on the other hand are higher often geosynchronous having better and longer coverage. Same for SarSat/ComSat constellations, all these are governmental sponsored and paid for. The sat communicators have to deal with power restrictions and satellite availability which include low angle line of sight.

Because I am not interested in communications I use a PLB with higher signal power limits and a higher sat constellation for better transmitting success.
I had made my decision but this article sealed it for me, Winter Hiking and Survival Guide The Death of Kate Matrosova



I'm not criticizing the use of sat communicators, but it is always good to know the limitations of the gear you use.

butthead"

This was an interesting though tragic read. I have always accepted that my ACR PLB would have a stronger transmitting signal, but I have never wondered by how much? The article specifies a PLB (they do not specify brand or model, but assuming it applies to my ACR ResQlink+ that I still have) has a transmitter strength of 5,000 milliwatts, and that a SPOT has 400 milliwatt transmitter. Obviously mathematically that's 4,600 milliwatts less, but I don't have the technical skills to put that into context. I just know its less and seems a lot less.

This drove me to look at the Garmin website to try to find out where my InReach Mini would fall on this continuum. All I could find was something on the User Manual PDF about Wireless frequency/protocol. I believe dBm is a measure of signal strength, but I am not sure if that is the transmitter or not. Anyone know?




The article also points out that PLB's can operate at colder temperatures, and suggested the colder temps may have been part of why her SPOT sent inaccurate and misleading GPS locations. So was the SPOT unable to accurately know where it was, or was the weaker transmission somehow responsible for sending varied locations?
 
01/10/2022 04:58PM  
Jaywalker

This past September in Wabakimi on the last morning of my 20 day trip, I woke up to unexpected light rain falling on the tent. I grabbed my Garmin InReach Mini and tried to get a basic weather update but could not get a signal.

I will admit that I'm not super tech savy and haven't used the Garmin device that you describe, but when I step out of my tent and water is coming down on me and I can't see the sun I've pretty much received my weather update! ;)
 
01/10/2022 04:58PM  
Jaywalker

This past September in Wabakimi on the last morning of my 20 day trip, I woke up to unexpected light rain falling on the tent. I grabbed my Garmin InReach Mini and tried to get a basic weather update but could not get a signal.

I will admit that I'm not super tech savy and haven't used the Garmin device that you describe, but when I step out of my tent and water is coming down on me and I can't see the sun I've pretty much received my weather update! ;)
 
01/10/2022 05:32PM  
PLB transmitting power is roughly 10 times the FCC limit on sat phones. Lack of detail on sat communicator devices makes direct comparison hard but I believe it would be similar to sat phones.
There are other thing to consider also, frequency and distance to the satellites being 2.
PLB's are regulated for international search and rescue, so all brands have very similar specifications. Sat com devices have few standard requirements, and built for commercial use including the satellites/messaging transfers.

I do a lot of traveling in the western mountain (thanks to retierment) and know how frequent signals drop off plus the lack of cell coverage. I keep the PLB in my vehicle in case of an emergency.

butthead
 
01/10/2022 05:45PM  
ScottL: "
Jaywalker


This past September in Wabakimi on the last morning of my 20 day trip, I woke up to unexpected light rain falling on the tent. I grabbed my Garmin InReach Mini and tried to get a basic weather update but could not get a signal. “


I will admit that I'm not super tech savy and haven't used the Garmin device that you describe, but when I step out of my tent and water is coming down on me and I can't see the sun I've pretty much received my weather update! ;)

Ah, so like Butthead you are a “weather-rock” guy. I respect that. Indeed this situation was the least important use on my trip. I was a mere 1.5 hour paddle from my car. The forecasts I got on the prior 19 days were usually very accurate. Then the day before I had a 10% chance of rain, but it rained all afternoon and night. I just was hoping to find out if I should just pack up and go or make another pot of coffee and sit around a while.
 
MossBack
distinguished member (158)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
01/10/2022 05:47PM  
andym:

As for wet days, it is the moisture in the leaves that produces problems under a canopy. So more moisture in the atmosphere and see or rain on the leaves can increase the problem. I haven’t used my Inreach Explorer+ enough to have experienced that and I have used it on a very rainy day without a problem.

This may have been some of my problem. Nearly all of my time trying to get familiar with the In-Reach was in the most humid part of the Southern Indiana summer. Lots of tree foliage. not necessarily directly overhead.
 
Savage Voyageur
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01/11/2022 09:55AM  
I have the Garmin InReach Explorer + model. I’ve had it for 2 years now. We travel with our camper to lots of places where there is no cell coverage so this is really a good fit for us. To your question I have never had a problem picking up satellites or getting coverage. It usually takes under a minute to connect from off position. I can even get coverage in my basement sitting in my Lazyboy chair. I get weather updates in timely fashion too. Zero problems with my InReach Explorer unit. I plug in my unit to my laptop on a regular basis and do any software updates. This is a very important thing to do.
 
ockycamper
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01/12/2022 06:01PM  
butthead: "The FCC does limit the transmitting power of sat communicators and the satellite constellations used are commercial and often in a fairly low orbit. GPS sat constellations on the other hand are higher often geosynchronous having better and longer coverage. Same for SarSat/ComSat constellations, all these are governmental sponsored and paid for. The sat communicators have to deal with power restrictions and satellite availability which include low angle line of sight.


Because I am not interested in communications I use a PLB with higher signal power limits and a higher sat constellation for better transmitting success.
I had made my decision but this article sealed it for me, Winter Hiking and Survival Guide The Death of Kate Matrosova


I'm not criticizing the use of sat communicators, but it is always good to know the limitations of the gear you use.


butthead"


What model PLB do you use?
 
01/12/2022 09:18PM  
ACR ResQLink.

butthead
 
gotwins
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01/27/2022 09:37PM  
butthead: " ACR ResQLink.


butthead"

I'm like Butthead. PLB from ACR plus a NOAA Weather radio, which has never failed me. My current radio is the Sangean DT-400W. Super lightweight, pulls in NOAA weather, as well as WELY, NPR, and 830am at night for Twins games. Also, no subscription fees for either device!
 
billconner
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01/28/2022 06:13AM  
If you only care about rescue, the PLB makes sense. For me, the Spot 2 has been 100% reliable and a comfort for my wife. Based on past similar discussions, now some a$$hole will feel it necessary to insult me or my wife.
 
01/28/2022 06:58AM  
I have an Explorer +.

Like the brochure says, you need a clear view of the sky. If you don't have a clear view and you are getting a signal, consider it a bonus.

When I try to get a signal under a tree canopy, I generally just set the command and will hear a ping within 5-10 minutes.

As to weather forecasting, I consider the inReach helpful but not reliable. Wind speed and direction are pretty accurate. And as that data point lends itself to paddling, it is is very useful. Rain forecasting is hit and miss in the middle of nowhere.

Only other comment I would make is that the antenna quality in a mini may not be as good. However, it seems like your experience has been not much different than mine.

 
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