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doubledown
distinguished member (111)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
01/28/2022 11:53PM  
Anyone use a canoe sail or wind paddle?

Most of the options out there just seem cheap so I’m wondering if anyone has had good experience with a certain brand.
 
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schweady
distinguished member(8070)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
01/29/2022 10:12AM  
Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, tho. :-)
 
MReid
distinguished member (443)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
01/29/2022 10:15AM  
I've used the original Wind Paddle on a long trip up north. They work great. They're not made anymore, and I don't know about the cheapos. After using my partner's, I snagged an original from another paddler that wasn't using it. I didn't want to take a chance in the boonies with a cheap copy.
 
01/30/2022 03:45AM  
I remember seeing plans for sewing a sail which used two paddles in pockets. Seemed to be a simple easily made sail.
 
01/30/2022 11:39AM  
schweady: "Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, though. :-) "

Yep.

I always thought about bringing something like this (not really) but the wind is never to my back. Always seems like a headwind...
 
MoosilaukeJohnny
member (19)member
  
01/30/2022 12:53PM  
Back in 1976...on the last trip I guided - the Granite-Sag-Alpine-Seagull loop (did it with my wife last summer!), there were three canoes total, and for the final stretch across Seagull, there was a strong, steady tailwind.

So...we lashed the three canoes together, with the middle canoe sticking out about a yard forward to prevent water piling up - then cut a longish pole to span the three canoes about two feet forward of the outer canoes midships - and affixed a tent fly to this to act as a large spinnaker-sail, with lines on each corner which were each tied with quick release knots (wet those lines and test the releases first...to make sure they work wet!) near the stern folks, each of whom also manned paddles for steering and stability. No fancy window in the fly, mind you - but there was a bit of a sightline underneath....and the bow folks could navigate.

But man oh man...did we ever fly across Seagull that day!

Edit: Fast forward to last summer (July 2021) - as mentioned, my wife and I did this same loop...and Seagull was completely, totally becalmed...like glass.
 
doubledown
distinguished member (111)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/01/2022 08:35PM  
plander: "
schweady: "Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, though. :-) "

Yep.

I always thought about bringing something like this (not really) but the wind is never to my back. Always seems like a headwind..."


Yes, that’s the style I’m talking about…not a mast style. Hoping for some 1st hand experience and a recommendation on a reliable brand.
 
andym
distinguished member(5340)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
02/01/2022 09:14PM  
The ones similar to the old wind paddle brand may count as having a fixed point because they attach to the hull. You might want to clarify with the FS before using in the BW.
 
02/01/2022 09:53PM  
doubledown: "
plander: "
schweady: "Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, though. :-) "

Yep.


I always thought about bringing something like this (not really) but the wind is never to my back. Always seems like a headwind..."



Yes, that’s the style I’m talking about…not a mast style. Hoping for some 1st hand experience and a recommendation on a reliable brand. "


I think these aren’t allowed since they attach to the boat.
 
AdamXChicago
distinguished member(1175)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/01/2022 10:52PM  
I’ve used the WindPaddle on a few trips to Quetico. Technically, the sail lines are not attached to the canoe (I’ve rigged it so that my feet are actually on the bottom line, while I hold the upper line with both hands). This obviously is in the bow and prohibits me from paddling, but when you get the right wind, you can really fly.

As mentioned on this thread, reliable tailwinds are rare. I haven’t brought the sail on any recent trips though, as I’ve determined it’s too much hassle to take with.

AdamX
 
Bobaaa
member (40)member
  
02/02/2022 08:46AM  
plander: "
schweady: "Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, though. :-) "

Yep.

I always thought about bringing something like this (not really) but the wind is never to my back. Always seems like a headwind..."


That thing could double as one heckuva drift sock ;)
 
scotttimm
distinguished member(647)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/02/2022 09:49AM  
doubledown: "
plander: "
schweady: "Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, though. :-) "

Yep.


I always thought about bringing something like this (not really) but the wind is never to my back. Always seems like a headwind..."



Yes, that’s the style I’m talking about…not a mast style. Hoping for some 1st hand experience and a recommendation on a reliable brand. "


I went through a lengthy process, sent in photos of something very similar to the FS, and they came back saying they are NOT legal in the BWCA. They did mention if you rig something up yourself with a tarp...fine. But anything pre-made for that specific purpose, no.
 
02/02/2022 03:15PM  
This message has had HTML content edited out of it.
Well I contacted the Superior National Forest by email to ask if these devices are allowed. What we all thought, no. The question and response email exchange is below:

QUESTION FROM ME:

Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:03 PM
To: FS-R9 Superior NF
Subject: Wind sail on canoe in BWCA
Hi, I’m pretty sure I know the answer but looking for confirmation. Are wind sails for canoes allowed in the BWCA? Specifically something like in the link below. Thanks in advance for the response.

canoe kayak sail



RESPONSE FROM THEM:

from: FS-R9 Superior NF
to: "peteralander@gmail.com"
date: Feb 2, 2022, 3:04 PM
subject: RE: Wind sail on canoe in BWCA
mailed-by: usda.gov
signed-by: usda.gov

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Superior National Forest.

No, the product from the link you provided would not be permitted within the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. If desired, there are thousands of lakes outside the Wilderness where you would be more than welcome to use such a product.

If I can clarify any of the above information or be of any further help, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Regards,

Luke Laaveg (he/him/his)
Visitor Services and Information
Forest Service
Superior National Forest

Supervisor’s Office

p: 218-626-4300
luke.laaveg@usda.gov

8901 Grand Avenue Place
Duluth, MN 55808
www.fs.fed.us
 
Jackfish
Moderator
  
02/02/2022 05:04PM  
plander: "Luke Laaveg (he/him/his) "

Wow...
 
02/02/2022 06:46PM  
Jackfish: "
plander: "Luke Laaveg (he/him/his) "

Wow..."


What's that even mean?
 
doubledown
distinguished member (111)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/02/2022 07:15PM  
Plander - appreciate the efforts in putting this one to bed!

Quite honestly, I had never even considered the legality until folks started mentioning...I had seen a couple of crews use them over the years so didn't even think twice.

May you limit out on walleye every day on your next trip!
 
scotttimm
distinguished member(647)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/02/2022 07:35PM  
bobbernumber3: "
Jackfish: "
plander: "Luke Laaveg (he/him/his) "

Wow..."



What's that even mean?"

It’s his preferred pronouns. Becoming fairly standard in signatures now a days. Mine were automatically added to my business cards, though I didn’t ask for it. The times they are a changin.
 
chessie
distinguished member (343)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/02/2022 07:39PM  
schweady: "Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, tho. :-)
"

A season past, I got a great photo of a fun group of guys going by our camp, 3 canoes together, the guy in front/center holding a pole (could've been a paddle for all I know) which supported a sail, with outer guys on either side holding onto sail "tails." Definitely not a rain poncho, for sure a "sail" but not like the one posted in previous pic. Not "attached" to boats, but held up-right in center by a support "pole". I was going to write a story and include this pic, but.... maybe not? Would this be "illegal?"
Super nice group, fun to see others having fun.
 
scotttimm
distinguished member(647)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/02/2022 07:50PM  
chessie: "
schweady: "Any sail with a fixed point/mast attached is illegal in the BW. Temporarily spreading out your rain gear to catch the wind is fine, tho. :-)
"

A season past, I got a great photo of a fun group of guys going by our camp, 3 canoes together, the guy in front/center holding a pole (could've been a paddle for all I know) which supported a sail, with outer guys on either side holding onto sail "tails." Definitely not a rain poncho, for sure a "sail" but not like the one posted in previous pic. Not "attached" to boats, but held up-right in center by a support "pole". I was going to write a story and include this pic, but.... maybe not? Would this be "illegal?"
Super nice group, fun to see others having fun. "


My understanding- from my conversation with the forest service - is that that is ok if it is a tarp, sticks, improvised. But something specifically manufactured for the purpose is not. I think I spoke to the same gentleman referenced above.
 
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(14414)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
  
02/02/2022 07:53PM  
We went to Johnson falls one trip. The days we spent there were always a strong wind from the west. On the way back there were strong winds so we made a sail with a tarp and two poles. We sailed back to our camp with not putting too much effort into it.
 
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(14414)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
  
02/02/2022 08:00PM  
This message has had HTML content edited out of it.
plander: "Well I contacted the Superior National Forest by email to ask if these devices are allowed. What we all thought, no. The question and response email exchange is below:


QUESTION FROM ME:


Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:03 PM
To: FS-R9 Superior NF
Subject: Wind sail on canoe in BWCA
Hi, I’m pretty sure I know the answer but looking for confirmation. Are wind sails for canoes allowed in the BWCA? Specifically something like in the link below. Thanks in advance for the response.


canoe kayak sail




RESPONSE FROM THEM:


from: FS-R9 Superior NF
to: "peteralander@gmail.com"
date: Feb 2, 2022, 3:04 PM
subject: RE: Wind sail on canoe in BWCA
mailed-by: usda.gov
signed-by: usda.gov


Hello,


Thank you for contacting Superior National Forest.


No, the product from the link you provided would not be permitted within the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. If desired, there are thousands of lakes outside the Wilderness where you would be more than welcome to use such a product.


If I can clarify any of the above information or be of any further help, please don’t hesitate to ask.


Regards,


Luke Laaveg (he/him/his)
Visitor Services and Information
Forest Service
Superior National Forest


Supervisor’s Office


p: 218-626-4300
luke.laaveg@usda.gov


8901 Grand Avenue Place
Duluth, MN 55808
www.fs.fed.us"



This topic has been discussed here many times before. The thing to remember is you can’t have a permanent mounting for a sail, like with a permanent mount, brackets. This version does NOT have a permanent mounting. It has ropes or straps. So the Forest Service is wrong. They probably thought you were mounting some big sail. This is no different than a tarp that people use with ropes lashed to the canoe. I would ask them why is this not allowed and a tarp is allowed. It’s exactly the same principle!
 
andym
distinguished member(5340)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
02/02/2022 08:06PM  
I think any improvised sail is going to be ok. If your improvisation is based on having brought along pulleys, cleats, and fittings for leeboards and a rudder, you might be going over the line. But it is an interesting question where the line winds up. With a CCS tarp folded on the diagonal, a good long branch for a mast, some ingenuity to support the mast, and a couple of people holding paddles, I think I could manage to get a canoe to sail upwind. Whether I could get it all the way to 45 degrees off the wind is open to debate.

As for specifying pronouns... that is becoming more common. I do it in my work email for two reasons. First, a gay colleague says that seeing it makes him feel more comfortable. Even though he is typically male and his pronouns are he/him/his, seeing them specified provides a signal to him that people are accepting of people being different. It also makes it easier for the non-binary person I work with. Their email specifies they/them. Because I specify mine, and I'm one of the group leads, it makes it easier for them to specify theirs and know they will be understood and respected. But it is not universal. Of the two trans people I am close to, one specifies their pronouns and the other doesn't.
 
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