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Chieflonewatie
distinguished member (147)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/08/2022 01:46PM  
Have they or are they going back to the old food storage rules?
 
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02/08/2022 02:21PM  
Here's the Food Storage Order. It reads "Beginning July 30, 2021..." No "ending" date is listed or suggested.

TZ
 
woodsandwater
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02/08/2022 02:58PM  
When I talked with Deb at Seagull Outfitters this afternoon she said the Forest Service has recinded the mandatory Bear Vault order.
 
MikeinMpls
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02/08/2022 04:30PM  
woodsandwater: "When I talked with Deb at Seagull Outfitters this afternoon she said the Forest Service has recinded the mandatory Bear Vault order."


Good. It would be nice if the USFS could let us all know.

Mike
 
02/08/2022 04:46PM  
BearVaults (etc) were never mandatory. It was either that or hang according to specs listed in the order. I'm going to assume it's still the same as under the order until the USFS says otherwise.
 
02/08/2022 06:31PM  
MikeinMpls: "
woodsandwater: "When I talked with Deb at Seagull Outfitters this afternoon she said the Forest Service has recinded the mandatory Bear Vault order."



Good. It would be nice if the USFS could let us all know.


Mike"


As detailed in the link above, the Food Storage Order was amended to remove the "solid, non-pliable" verbiage from the order, thereby allowing Ursacks. Bear Vaults were never required, as hanging was and is an allowed food storage option.

TZ
 
02/08/2022 07:04PM  
Just checking :Bear vaults are no longer mandatory , correct?

So is hanging containers other than bear vaults still required? In particular, those blue barrels?

 
schweady
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02/08/2022 07:23PM  
4keys: "Just checking :Bear vaults are no longer mandatory , correct?"

They never were. Any food container has always been allowed (and still is) as long as it is hung properly. Trouble is, so few hangs are done properly.

4keys: "So is hanging containers other than bear vaults still required? In particular, those blue barrels?"

Blue barrels, yes. Ursaks, no.

Directly from the July 30, 2021 order, as amended on August 10, 2021:
"Proper food storage can be done in two ways:
Using a bear canister or bear-resistant container and placing it 50 feet away from your tent on the ground (preferred method) or;
Hanging your food pack at least 12 feet above the ground at all points, six feet horizontally from any pole or limb and four feet vertically from any pole or limb."

Excitement over USFS 'rescinding' any 'mandatory Bear Vault order' is misleading. The modification/correction made in August was simply to allow pliable containers which meet certain resistance standards (eg. Ursaks) to also be used for storage without hanging in the manner described above.

In the opening explanation of the modification to the order:
"Correction (8-10-21): The food storage order has been amended to remove the phrase 'solid, non-pliable' from the definition of a bear-resistant container."
 
02/08/2022 09:10PM  
To add some further clarification, BearVault is a brand of bear canister the same way Kleenex is a brand of facial tissue. There are other bear canisters approved by IGBC that are allowed by SNF, such as Grubcan or Bearikade. Also many coolers are allowed if used with a lock.

 
Chieflonewatie
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02/09/2022 08:29AM  
I was aware that the had changed to allow the Ursacks but I was wondering if they were going to go back to the old rules. The old rules where you can use blue barrels without hanging them.

 
mschi772
distinguished member(806)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/09/2022 09:19AM  
My question to anyone and everyone eager to hear that the USFS doesn't have a food storage mandate anymore is:

Why do you need to have a mandate in place to do the right thing with your food? If you're eager to handle and store your food improperly, should you really be going out there putting yourself and everyone else at risk?

Nothing that we might realistically bring into the BWCAW will ever be bear-proof. BearVaults, Garcias, Ursacks, *proper* hangs are bear-resistant. Blue barrels, however, cannot even be said to be bear resistant. Many people will say things like, "I've been doing X for years and never had a problem." This is a logical fallacy known as normalcy bias. That they've never had a problem is merely a matter of luck of never having their method of doing X actually tested by a bear. The day a bear comes across a blue barrel stashed in the woods is the day that bear defeats that barrel and gets your food. Your food hasn't been taken yet because you use a blue barrel; your food hasn't been taken yet because you've been lucky enough to not have it cross paths with a bold, hungry bear.

Now, and argument can be made for stashed, odor-tight containers being *behaviorally* bear resistant vs the conventional obsession with *physical* bear resistance, but the USFS and NPS and other groups seem to be violently allergic to science--ethological science especially. I'm a huge proponent of behavioral resistance. Hangs aren't just bad because they're often difficult or impossible to achieve properly but also because bears have learned to look for hangs; a hung pack is a massive sign to a bear that there is high-value food to be had. Bears have been observed walking into campsites and looking up, checking the popular hanging trees for packs. They KNOW. What they don't know very well is that food might be 100+ meters away in some random other tree or nook in a kind of container they aren't used to looking for. Technically I'm against any food container being *just* physically or behaviorally bear resistant. Behavioral resistance is great, but if a bear should happen upon food stored solely in this way, that food is as good as gone. We can and should achieve *both,* so that our food is not easily found, and if it *is* found, it is still not easily accessed.

Many of the small backpacking bear-resistant containers already advocate for stashing far from camp, and that is exactly what you should do. If you are going to hang, though, don't just hang from a tree that is 10 m down the latrine path. Bushwack away from camp a proper distance; unfortunately this makes the odds of finding a spot where a proper hang can be achieved even more impossible, but that just further solidifies my case against the USFS obsession with hanging in the BWCAW. What I'd like to see is a company develop a physically bear-resistant container that is larger, preferably similar in size/dimensions to the blue open head drums that so many of us have and use, that can be carried into the woods and secured far from camp. Packing 5+ BearVaults is expensive and, more importantly since the proposed container will probably be pricey too, really sucks. Canoe trippers need a better tool for this job.

Jaywalker: "To add some further clarification, BearVault is a brand of bear canister the same way Kleenex is a brand of facial tissue. There are other bear canisters approved by IGBC that are allowed by SNF, such as Grubcan or Bearikade. Also many coolers are allowed if used with a lock.

"


The Bearikade is no longer on the IGBC list. Bearikade failed testing, and Wild Ideas has never reattempted certification since. For what it is worth, it was approved by the Sierra Interagency Black Bear Group (SIBBG) before they were disbanded in 2008 which "legend has it" is because Ursack sued them because they did not receive approval after allegedly passing their bear test. It is worth noting at this point that SIBBG would only "conditionally" approve containers after a captive test and that containers would not be fully approved until they went 3 months in the field without issue.

I'm tempted to get into a rant about how IGBC (and SIBBG) isn't really all it is cracked-up to be, but that's a different topic.
 
02/09/2022 09:26AM  
Right - as others have said, Bear proof containers were never mandatory. As long as you properly hung your food, you were in compliance. That hung food could be in any container (just hang it within the guidelines).

Pretty much all they banned was the cliff jacobson method of hide your food backpack in the bushes and hope for the best.
 
Chieflonewatie
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02/09/2022 09:43AM  
If I want to be preached to I will go to church. I was just asking a question.
 
HowardSprague
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02/09/2022 11:22AM  
Yep. I had the same question as you Chief. (Especially since I bought my blue barrel just last year, and it fits so nicely in my CCS Barrel pack I bought the year before! Perfect size and carrying comfort.)

As for
“ Many people will say things like, "I've been doing X for years and never had a problem." This is a logical fallacy known as normalcy bias. That they've never had a problem is merely a matter of luck of never having their method of doing X actually tested by a bear. …”

Perhaps the logical fallacy is that the method never being tested is a matter of luck, rather than effectiveness. Stashing the blue barrel in bushes some distance out of camp is not the same method as leaving the barrel in the middle of camp, or nearby and unconcealed. And from blue barrel incidents I’ve seen/read about, that was the case.
 
coffeetalk
senior member (65)senior membersenior member
  
02/09/2022 12:25PM  
MikeinMpls: "
woodsandwater: "When I talked with Deb at Seagull Outfitters this afternoon she said the Forest Service has recinded the mandatory Bear Vault order."



Good. It would be nice if the USFS could let us all know.


Mike"


This. I tried to find confirmation on the FS website just now. The link to the order provided above works so the order is still there. But I was not able to browse my way to it. The list of Forest Supervisor's Orders under the Alerts and Notices heading does not include last season's Food Storage Order. It's gone (if it was ever on this page - I don't know). There is a Food Storage Order listed, but it's the one from the season before that only includes the Jasper, Alpine, Red Rock, etc. area and specifies the "solid non-pliable" bit. There's also a host of fire closure termination orders, but no food storage order terminations listed.

I could very well be missing something, but to the casual browser it may appear that last season's Food Storage Order no longer exists (but the one for the Alpine area still does?). It still feels ambiguous to me, lacking any official announcement of termination. Have I missed something, anyone?
 
OHPaddler
member (22)member
  
02/09/2022 12:45PM  
I wish someone would sell a 60L Ursack which I could use to line my blue barrel or a 60L aluminum, carbon/kevlar or Poly barrel which was bear resistant.

Bonus points if the barrel option had a "belt loop" design or indentation - where I could use a cam strap to thread through the belt loops (or place in the indentation) to cam securely to a tree.

 
LarrySw45
member (46)member
  
02/09/2022 01:05PM  
If you were using an Ursack why would you need a Blue Barrel.

Larry S
 
Gadfly
distinguished member (462)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
02/09/2022 01:06PM  
Can't help but notice the blue barrel in the photo provided by mschi772 on the top review

Blue Barrel
 
02/09/2022 01:17PM  
I emailed BearVault back when the new restrictions were put in place, asking, nay, practically begging for them to take my money for a 60L barrel that is just as strong as their existing models. I know it's an engineering challenge because they can't just scale up the design, they need to reinforce it with more ribs and studs and whatnot. Still, I think the market is RIPE for something like that especially given the new food storage restrictions. I like my blue barrels for ease of carrying (via a harness) and storage but I'd "gladly" pay (as glad as you could be to likely spend $200 per barrel) to upgrade to some big BearVault-type barrels if anything of the sort actually existed.

I recommend everyone here reach out to them to add your request for such barrels, if they are of interest to you.
 
OHPaddler
member (22)member
  
02/09/2022 02:16PM  
LarrySw45: "If you were using an Ursack why would you need a Blue Barrel.

Larry S
"


I like carrying my food in a hard-sided, waterproof container. I'd need ~10 bear vaults to achieve the same capacity as my two 60L barrels.
 
02/09/2022 03:11PM  
OHPaddler: "I wish someone would sell a 60L Ursack which I could use to line my blue barrel or a 60L aluminum, carbon/kevlar or Poly barrel which was bear resistant.


Bonus points if the barrel option had a "belt loop" design or indentation - where I could use a cam strap to thread through the belt loops (or place in the indentation) to cam securely to a tree.


"


Ursack does make a 30L one if you want two of those.
 
02/09/2022 03:13PM  
My recollection is that the original 2021 order contained the same language as the 2020 order that it was in effect until specifically terminated by USFS.
 
mschi772
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02/09/2022 03:48PM  
Gadfly: "Can't help but notice the blue barrel in the photo provided by mschi772 on the top review


Blue Barrel "


Yep, we have a blue barrel (pictured is actually a 30 l groupmates rented, but I personally have a 60 l). Despite barrels' lack of physical bear resistance, they are still invaluable containers for transportation of food and camp kitchen tools.
Since people have been teaching and emboldening bears in the BWCAW so much lately, we have switched to hanging it, and in the absence of any better option, this year will see the addition of a small Ursack for stashing away dense, crushable foods in a secondary location. This way if the hang and barrel are breached, we'll still have some food in reserve in the Ursack. I'm not about to spend $400+ on 5+ BV500s and a pack to carry them all. Not happening. That's a combination of expensive AND annoying. Packing food into multiple small containers instead of one or two larger ones sucks, is inefficient, and it prevents fitting some larger items altogether. Hanging properly sucks also, but it sucks less and doesn't cost nearly as much. I have my fingers crossed that eventually someone with the means to will produce a bear-resistant container that is larger and somewhat equivalent to our blue barrels.

HowardSprague: "Perhaps the logical fallacy is that the method never being tested is a matter of luck, rather than effectiveness. Stashing the blue barrel in bushes some distance out of camp is not the same method as leaving the barrel in the middle of camp, or nearby and unconcealed. And from blue barrel incidents I’ve seen/read about, that was the case."


Perhaps, but when I've seen the "I've been doing X..." excuse used, it has almost always been accompanied with a description of extremely reckless food handling such as admission of basic food bags just being left on a rock near camp. I am fully willing to entertain the notion that "deep" stashing of a blue barrel may be sufficiently bear resistant, however, I've never seen any repeatable, verifiable scientific methods supporting such claims, and, as I just said, often the people advocating for non-standard methods strike me as ignorant or reckless people just looking to justify not changing their methods. Furthermore, I'm not about to try to fight the fight for food stashing methods over food storage materials. The USFS and NPS both have a weak interest in the science of these matters as it is, and I have no hope of ever getting them to pay any attention to behavioral science, and I have a degree in biology focused on ecology and animal behavior--probably why I get so frustrated by all this in the first place, and ignorance probably would be bliss.

jdoutdoors: "I emailed BearVault back when the new restrictions were put in place, asking, nay, practically begging for them to take my money for a 60L barrel that is just as strong as their existing models. I know it's an engineering challenge because they can't just scale up the design, they need to reinforce it with more ribs and studs and whatnot. Still, I think the market is RIPE for something like that especially given the new food storage restrictions. I like my blue barrels for ease of carrying (via a harness) and storage but I'd "gladly" pay (as glad as you could be to likely spend $200 per barrel) to upgrade to some big BearVault-type barrels if anything of the sort actually existed."


I reached-out to Northstar recently because I couldn't shake the idea that a bear-resistant barrel might be able to be made out of kevlar/basalt/innegra composites not unlike their IXP or Nova Craft's TuffStuff. They were intrigued by the idea, but said they have no intention of pursuing it as they are only interested in making canoes and are swamped with orders.
 
schweady
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02/09/2022 06:45PM  
Chieflonewatie: "I was aware that the had changed to allow the Ursacks but I was wondering if they were going to go back to the old rules. The old rules where you can use blue barrels without hanging them."

I doubt that you'll ever see that again. FS seems to be acknowledging that breached blue barrels are contributing to the overall train bear problem.
 
eyestalker
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02/10/2022 08:42AM  
I always thought it was "Recommended" that you hang your food...not mandatory? I've done several trips to the BWCA and I'll admit I've never hung food pack one time and I've done some long trips like a 16 day moose hunt in '07. To he honest I've never seen a bear up there and I've spent alot of time on Agnes which apparently is the "Bear Capitol" of the BWCA or appeared to be a short time ago? If I "Need" to hang I'll start tho? Good thread
 
thistlekicker
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02/10/2022 11:03AM  
Leave No Trace principles: never feed wildlife, properly store and dispose of food. Pretty straightforward, right?

Yet, there's a significant problem with food habituated wildlife in the BW. Most likely explanation is people aren't following LNT principles. So SNF stepped in with more explicit rules. I hope they enforce them. And even if they eventually relax the language of the food storage order, I hope they fine people who do a poor job of keeping wildlife away from their food, regardless of the specific methods and equipment used.

 
Minnesotian
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02/10/2022 11:32AM  

I think the days of being able to utilize a blue barrel for food storage are numbered. I don't own one myself, and with all these developments I probably won't ever purchase one, but I think it is only a matter of time until a cooler manufacturer makes a more robust, bear resistant container in the shape of the blue barrels. For those interested, here is the complete listing of Bear Resistant Products supported by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee (IGB), last updated on January 27, 2022:
IGB Container list
 
ForestDuff
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02/10/2022 04:51PM  
Just curious, is this enforceable during winter trips?
Boo boo bear is generally asleep, and the only issue I've ever had is a Martin trying to get into my soft cooler.
 
mschi772
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02/11/2022 10:13AM  
thistlekicker: "I hope they fine people who do a poor job of keeping wildlife away from their food, regardless of the specific methods and equipment used.


"


I'd like to see fines for feeding the frickin' chipmunks and squirrels. Finding a site occupied by rodents that have clearly been habituated to being fed by stupid humans who think it's cute is third on my list after finding garbage and mutilated trees in terms of shit that grinds my gears when I arrive at a site. Pipe dream that anyone could ever possibly be caught doing it and fined for it, however.
 
burgydancer
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02/11/2022 12:31PM  
We've hung the food and scents stuff pack for over 40 years and never had a problem. We are very fastidious about it. Also, doesn't add the weight of a barrel for us "older" folks.
 
02/11/2022 12:56PM  
burgydancer: "We've hung the food and scents stuff pack for over 40 years and never had a problem. We are very fastidious about it. Also, doesn't add the weight of a barrel for us "older" folks."


+1 on hanging.
 
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