Hopefully this will make people think twice before acting out their own bushcraft experience.

https://gearjunkie.com/news/zachary-fowler-gregory-ovens-vs-national-park-act

The logs these guys used were clearly not dead and down. I have no problem with people building shelters and practicing bushcraft IF they are on their own property cutting their own trees. If on public lands use dead and down trees and remove anything when you leave. A quick YouTube search of bushcraft and you will see many people cutting small trees and building. I don’t think that many of these people are on private land, and they all are using live trees.

Ovens Responds to Allegations
Ovens is disputing the charges, citing a lack of public notice from the parks administration. “We’re not denying that we were there doing these things,” Ovens told CBC. “It’s obvious in the videos, but it’s just the principle that they don’t do anything to let the public know when they change the rules.”

Give me a break. What happened to Leave No Trace principles?

These two need to be charged lots of money and sent to dig holes and plant trees in a mosquito infested locale.

Ignorance of the rules is just that--ignorance.

I don’t get his argument that he didn’t know the rules…isn’t one of the 1st tenants of law…I am no lawyer…but I slept at a Holiday Inn last night :)…that ignorance of the law excuses no one “Ignorantia juris non excusat or ignorantia legis neminem excusat”

He comes off as a child :) That excuse doesn’t work for children either…

T

The really sad thing is, is if you read the latest comments for this and Zach's video, most people think they did nothing wrong.

They would get off much easier, if they had only committed murder, on Chicago's South Side.

Stumpy: "They would get off much easier, if they had only committed murder, on Chicago's South Side. "

Please stop trying to punch threads into political scraps. Please. Your comment is utterly ungermane and is only meant to instigate.

missmolly: "

Stumpy: "They would get off much easier, if they had only committed murder, on Chicago's South Side. "

Please stop trying to punch threads into political scraps. Please. Your comment is utterly ungermane and is only meant to instigate. "

Not at all.... My point being that the outrage seems to me, to be unbalanced with so much going on in our society or the world, for that matter.
I could have picked many different examples, and chose what I thought was not political.

Well, living in the Chicago area I can see his point. And I got to learn a new word, ungermane, so that's a win. My goal is to use that in a sentence today, and since I have a meeting with my clueless boss later, there should be plenty of opportunities to do so. Thanks!

scat: "Well, living in the Chicago area I can see his point. And I got to learn a new word, ungermane so that's a win. My goal is to use that in a sentence today, and since I have a meeting with my clueless boss later, there should be plenty of opportunities to do so. Thanks!
"

I was mispronouncing it in my head. I thought it had to do with “The Odd Couple”s Felix Unger.

scat: "Well, living in the Chicago area I can see his point. And I got to learn a new word, ungermane, so that's a win. My goal is to use that in a sentence today, and since I have a meeting with my clueless boss later, there should be plenty of opportunities to do so. Thanks!
"

You can always derail a thread by offering up, "But what about this other issue, which is bigger and badder?"

Climate change is an example. So, in a thread about innies versus outies, one could make like Debbie Downer and say, "But what does an innie or outie matter when all the world's ecosystems are unraveling, thousands of species are going extinct, coastal cities will drown, droughts and famines will kill hundreds of millions, and war will wage around the world?"

The fact that the motive for doing it was to profit from it is why they are coming down hard on them. Also, because the number of followers on their channel get ideas from them, I don’t expect much leniency from the Canadian government. As YouTube influencers, it was their job to educate on the laws surrounding bushcraft. They had to know that bushcrafting is a controversial subject in wilderness areas.

missmolly: "

scat: "Well, living in the Chicago area I can see his point. And I got to learn a new word, ungermane, so that's a win. My goal is to use that in a sentence today, and since I have a meeting with my clueless boss later, there should be plenty of opportunities to do so. Thanks!
"

You can always derail a thread by offering up, "But what about this other issue, which is bigger and badder?"


Climate change is an example. So, in a thread about innies versus outies, one could make like Debbie Downer and say, "But what does an innie or outie matter when all the world's ecosystems are unraveling, thousands of species are going extinct, coastal cities will drown, droughts and famines will kill hundreds of millions, and war will wage around the world?"


"

Nailed it. The only thing "whataboutism" is good for is shaming and paralyzing us so that instead of defending some standards or acting on some offenses, we do nothing about anything. It is closely related to another terminal social illness we have with all-or-nothing expectations of perfection where if a solution/advancement isn't perfect in every conceivable way, it is rejected in favor of the status quo despite any benefits it may have over the status quo.

h20: "Ignorance of the rules is just that--ignorance."

They weren't ignorant of the rules, that's just their lame excuse. Throw the book at them.

dschult2: "The really sad thing is, is if you read the latest comments for this and Zach's video, most people think they did nothing wrong."

I was wondering about the fawning commentary as well. But it looks like all of it came before the publication of the charges.

My question is...where is YouTube in all of this? They are still promoting these two without any disclaimer of the charges pending for activities contained on a video hosted by them. Google hasn't hesitated to demonetize videos for people who have expressed unconventional views never mind flagrant disregard for laws.

I'm with anybody who believes these two were willfully blind of their actions. Banff is the crown Jewel of National Parks. Anyone with any outdoors experience knows these parks have a variety of restrictions and limitations intended to preserve their natural aesthetic. All of the transgressions listed should have raised red flags in the minds of these two - particularly the Canadian - to inquire before proceeding. Discharging firearms...gimme a break. You never take anything firearms-relate for granted in Canada - full stop.

Argo raises good points.

My follow-up is that woodcraft is archaic. Modern camping equipment is far superior to woodcraft. It's lighter. It's drier. It's safer, for you don't swing an axe to erect a tent. And it doesn't deform the forest. I understand the craving for independence, but you can use modern equipment to take you far deeper into the wilderness than Banff. I've been to Banff. It's lovely, but I saw Swan Lake there and listened to jazz and walked a river gully on a suspended footbridge. If you want wilderness, go to the Ungava Peninsula. Even with modern equipment, you might die, but without it, you won't have a fighting chance to live.

Thanks, Mitch!

Stumpy: "They would get off much easier, if they had only committed murder, on Chicago's South Side. "

Inferring (even if in a "joking/offhand" way) that we shouldn't mete out appropriate punishment to people breaking the national park rules because we don't mete out enough punishment to some murderers in some locations is a false equivalency argument. This type of argument is used/abused way too often, and I agree with missmolly that it doesn't belong in this discussion.

If they are "Alone" stars, they should know enough to research any applicable laws and rules for wherever they plan to "survive". The show frequently reminds viewers that all participants are bound by the laws/rules/regulations of the region they are "surviving".

MM - I see your point in your pointed remark. Sorry you took umbrage, I was actually more interested in the cool new word you shared. The $110,000 fine should take a bite out the half mil $ the guy won on the show and hopefully he gets pointed in the right direction. Point and period over and out.

It seems to me there are some key differences between "bushcraft" and Leave No Trace wilderness experiences. Throw in the survivalism of reality tv with the universal access to youtube content and public places can quickly be consumed.

Here's a primitive camping attempt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUJEbij-9Vk) in the BWCA with several references to the law. A few days into the trip they were hungry, caught an awesome Northern, and let it go because it wasn't the right length. Not sure how the butter is survivalist, but oh well!

scat: "MM - I see your point in your pointed remark. Sorry you took umbrage, I was actually more interested in the cool new word you shared. The $110,000 fine should take a bite out the half mil $ the guy won on the show and hopefully he gets pointed in the right direction. Point and period over and out."

To be frank, I simply slapped "un" onto "germane" and hoped that was a word. I've never heard anyone use "ungermane," so if you start using it, don't be surprised if folks say, "Huh?"

I looked it up and it is a British English word and means not appropriate to the topic being considered, so, nicely played! Never know, might come in handy while discussing politics at the next tea and crumpets party I attend. If I ever get the chance to use it in a Scrabble game my gratitude will be unending. Truly hope I didn’t get your knickers in a bunch, that wouldn’t be cricket.

Cheers, scat

You guys are too f%#!^(
Funny. I love it.

scat: "I looked it up and it is a British English word and means not appropriate to the topic being considered, so nicely played! Never know, might come in handy while discussing politics at the next tea and crumpets party I attend. If I ever get the chance to use it in a Scrabble game my gratitude will be unending. Truly hope I didn’t get your knickers in a bunch, that wouldn’t be cricket.

Cheers, scat"

Ha! We are funny!

Now use the word undeterred in a sentence.

I fear the woodcrafters are undeterred about woodcrafting and they'll pop up in another pristine park.

Too germane to this thread?

Two roads diverged in (this thread) wood...or was it three or four?

however do we get back to the main path?

Yes, stay on the path. To that end, I once interviewed a couple that's paddled many Labrador rivers. They typically paddle without other partners in large part because it's simply too wild for most folks and when I say wild, I mean those rivers are so cold, roaring, and uncharted that they'll kill you. I remember a pic they sent me of them standing beside a snowbank on the shoreline in July and the snow was higher than their heads.

So, if you want to pretend that you're as woodcrafty and tough as a Voyageur, there are still places one can do those things, but without Gore-Tex and freeze-dried food, which are as unwoodcrafty as it gets, they'll likely be gobbled. Filming woodcraft projects for a YouTube channel in a national park is an attention-grabbing stunt. It's also ironic, for they're using high tech equipment to present themselves as old-timey.

missmolly: "

scat: "MM - I see your point in your pointed remark. Sorry you took umbrage, I was actually more interested in the cool new word you shared. The $110,000 fine should take a bite out the half mil $ the guy won on the show and hopefully he gets pointed in the right direction. Point and period over and out."

To be frank, I simply slapped "un" onto "germane" and hoped that was a word. I've never heard anyone use "ungermane," so if you start using it, don't be surprised if folks say, "Huh?" "

Now I'm even more impressed!
My goal is to use ungermane in a sentence at least once this week.

The genius of it all is implicating yourself in a crime for all to see. Sadly if you spend enough time watching YouTube wilderness videos you will see some cringeworthy things. Usually cutting live trees, glass and cans where they're not allowed. I often wonder about the choice of fires ring locations but I'm pretty peticular. Perhaps part of the punishment is public service videos explaining what not to do.

Alone is my favorite TV show and both of these guys are truly B A.

That said, they should know the rules of whatever land they are doing these things on and follow them.

treehorn: "Alone is my favorite TV show and both of these guys are truly B A.


That said, they should know the rules of whatever land they are doing these things on and follow them."

I don't know the show, so it's good to have you counter-balance some of the criticisms here.

One more criticism: They are monetizing the wilderness. I know lots of people do that, but they're making money off of being bad role models.

MM - It's show where they take 8 or so contestants, and put them on a shore in a purely wilderness setting, totally solo. I think they can take something like 8 personal items with them. No food, so most of them end up starving close to death and buzz the rescue squad to pick them up. Some get pulled against their will cuz they are so malnourished. The goal is the person who lasts the longest gets a half a million dollar prize. Some don't last a day, the winner hangs in for a max of about 60? + or -, maybe it's 80 or so. Usually the ones who bail are those that miss their family, or can't find food or simply lose their mind. One guy had a large cache of fish and got pulled cuz he was starving himself to death. The last guy or two were avid hunters and were able to score some meat to carry them to the finish line. There was one woman who was totally thriving, I was rooting for her, and was really doing well, and then basically said, I'm good, been here did that, time to move on to something else. It's kind of a cool show, I watched it. What I don't get is that they always put them there at the onset of a brutal winter looming and a lot of them don't stand a snowball's chance in hey to make it. But I guess they only have a season of TV to get it all in.
Some others might have better recollect than I have right now, just my own summarization. And yeah, I'm quite sure it has spawned a whole bunch of goofs who think they want to try it for themselves. Then make a video to glorify it, and I take it try to profit off of it.

These two guys are dopes. They know the rules. Worst part about it is, now you have guys & gals trying to replicate this throughout the BW in flying their drones, moving campfire rings & cutting live vegetation. Hell, we saw youtubers doing this last year right here in the park.

Thanks, Scat, for getting me up-to-date.

missmolly: "Ha! We are funny!"

Goodfellas : How Am I Funny?