On a recent trip to basswood we had a motorboat land at our campsite. An older man entered our camp and announced he was using our latrine. My dog, an Irish terrier,disagreed with this gentleman’s choices and voiced her displeasure! We told him the latrines location and suggested he make use of it and then leave our campsite! Upon completing his task the intruder stood between our tents and demanded we restrain our dog before he would leave! I then explained how rude and unethical his behavior was and explained that my dog would remove him from our camp on command. He then climbed into his motorboat and cruised the bank yelling profanities at us much to my dos amusement. I regretted allowing him to use our facilities, and the resulting upset he caused. How would you have handled this oaf?

You handled it nicer than I would have. It's *bleeping* Basswood and he had a motor, so there's no reason he couldn't have zipped around looking for an open site among the MANY at his disposal at any given spot on that lake. Even if he *did* do that and failed, it sounds like he was impolite as heck. Once he copped an attitude, refusing to leave after his business was finished, not only would he be facing a dog, he'd be noticing some sort of melee weapon in my hand as my tone grew ever-increasingly irritated with him while one of my partners noted his boat's information.

I'm more than happy to share a site or resources with someone in need, but an attitude of entitlement quickly spoils my generosity. You don't get to trespass into my camp and start making demands. Know your place. You're a guest at my site, and I expect you to behave accordingly or you'll quickly stop being at my site at all.

Having said all of that, if I were to host someone at my site in this way, I would immediately restrain my dog for as long as they are there for a variety of reasons. Actually, I wouldn't need to as my dog is on-leash in some way at all times in the wilderness, but I'd likely relocate and possibly shrink their range in order to give my guest and my dog plenty of space from each other. It's polite as many people are uncomfortable with dogs. It's safe for my dog as I don't trust people to conduct themselves properly with my dog.

There was no hosting this character! He barged into campsite uninvited and declared he was using the latrine. My dog met him and attempted to discourage him by barking. This is a well trained animal who knew the intruder had not been invited!

Bobcatmaster: "There was no hosting this character! He barged into campsite uninvited and declared he was using the latrine. My dog met him and attempted to discourage him by barking. This is a well trained animal who knew the intruder had not been invited!"

I understand that but was covering some adjacent bases. This specific guy should be thankful he didn't get a beat-down for the initial trespass, nevermind his parting attitude.

This would never happen in my camp. Anyone that would have the audacity to enter my campsite and make any kind of demands or threats would be sent packing. I don’t have a dog, but I’m a pretty big guy myself, and I always paddle with my son who is a Division I offensive lineman. That play would be over pretty damn quickly.

He thought he had the power after setting foot in your camp on his conditions.

Probably the "I've had motor permits for the last ____ years and this is what we always do" crowd.

I'd be much more inclined to help a paddler. If they "gotta go" for whatever reason by all means you can paddle up and ask and I'd even let you use my TP so you didn't have to find yours. Motor boat? You can be at another open site in....2 min?

I would have written down (or taken a pic) of his boat number info and reported him to the USFS when I took out.

Yep, he was an oaf. Still, I'm glad you didn't escalate the conflict. He might have been packing and a thunderbox isn't worth dyin' over.

I would have emotional scarred this fool. I can give it back big time if someone is a jerk

He would still be trying to figure out how to get out of that latrine, or surely would have had to burn his clothes. You could have followed him back there and snapped a few pictures or pretended to, that would have been funny. "Dude, one more word and these will be all over Facebook!" would have probably shut him up. I can understand the need to go but if I was him in that situation I would have been as gracious and cordial as possible and offer up some sort of payment or gift to you for allowing me to use the throne.

OneMatch: "I would have written down (or taken a pic) of his boat number info and reported him to the USFS when I took out."

+1. Forward with details to the local FS LEO. If he’s a regular trouble maker they might well know him.

I’d say you handled it well. The guy was a jerk, but it doesn’t sound like he was in any way a threat. If it had been a group of guys, or he insisted on camping, of if you had youngsters in camp - that might be very different. But as you described it, you let a guy not crap his pants, you and your dog both gave him a good piece of your minds, and you have the satisfaction of having gotten under his skin and you got rid of him (hence the shouting). I’d say you won.

Wow. I'm sorry you had to deal with this; what a jerk. No person should ever enter an occupied site without permission. It's interesting to me how much the "visitor's" attitude matters. Anyone who landed at my site and called up from shore saying they are really sorry and embarrassed but need a latrine bad and could they use it would be welcomed or at least tolerated. I would have handled it as you did making clear he was rude and unethical. Agree that not escalating would be important but from my comfy chair here at home it seems like following him down the trail and removing my TP would be in order. I might even stand there and, when he complained about needing some privacy, I'd note that he didn't ask to come into camp and I'm not asking his permission to "supervise. " Getting the boat info is also a good idea and I'd take a picture if I could. All this is easy to say upon reflection. At the moment such a bizzare event outside normal behavior occurs, you just do your best and you clearly did. Glad you had the dog at the ready too.

I can't help but laughing at this post. Imagine the look on his face as he's about 5' from the box thinking "I made it" when he hears the engine on his boat revving up. You know when you think that you have made it and you can't hold it another second because your brain and body just sort of give up the fight to hold back. As he comes running down the trail you yell out "just kidding!". Now that would have turned ugly. Sometimes I just have sick thoughts but it's the practical joker in me. Sorry to digress.

Somehow, I think there is another side of this story or missing details...

Yes, odd that the guy seemed to march right into your site. But it seems the unrestrained dog added to the difficult situation and upset.

And the threat by you of using the dog to remove him from camp was probably not a good call.

missmolly: "Yep, he was an oaf. Still, I'm glad you didn't escalate the conflict. He might have been packing and a thunderbox isn't worth dyin' over. "

+1 agreed

bobbernumber3: "Somehow, I think there is another side of this story or missing details...
."

This was my first thought as well. I imagine coming ashore wasn't a casual thoughtless affair for the older gentleman. If he felt the need to land at an occupied site and announce he need to use the latrine, I suspect he had very little time for niceties at his arrival.

The OP's "make use of it and leave our campsite!" response makes clear they had zero interest in offering good will or the slightest compassion for an individual who was clearly exhibiting a distress we have all shared. Moreover, it likely eliminated the opportunity for their trespasser to ask forgiveness on his return from his emergent visit to the latrine.

We all share the BWCA. Seems petty to be stingy about a hole full of crap.

That is my take.

This is for sure a crappy situation(pardon the pun). But based on what we have been told about the attitude and approach of the intruder it seems to me that trying to shift blame or put this back on the OP is ridiculous.

That guy is clearly out of line, but it’s not worth fighting over.

Just shrug it off and carry on with the day.

I can’t imagine ever stopping at a campsite to ask somebody to use their latrine and would be annoyed of someone did the same. You’re in the woods, figure it out.

There are always 3 sides to a story…yours, mine, and then the truth…with that said it would be hard for the guy using the latrine to have much to say that would be redeeming.

You just don’t enter a camp…you ask…if they are jerks and say no then you move on…If you don’t now you are an intruder and a bigger jerk! you don’t need a latrine to deuce in the woods. Plus he had a motor boat…drive to the next one for God’s sake if you are too weak and decrepit to deuce in the woods? He could of pulled over anywhere on the lake? Then the dog barking didn’t deter him? This guy must be some piece of entitlement…

I am not sure what I would do if someone “told” me what they were going to do at my site? Certainly wouldn’t get a “hey nice guy, come on in with your great attitude”

T

I would hate to use a thunderbox. Holes in the ground are full of spiders! Anyone who's squatted to poop can feel that squatting is how we are made to poop. It's so easy! If you're married to sitting or too stiff to squat, then sit on a log and cantilever your back porch.

On Crown Land, there are no thunderboxes, but there are public toilets, aka low, flat rocks where birds and beavers find it easy to poop. That's where I poop too. Being public facilities, there's water right there for washing afterwards. Nice view too.

Anyway, rude, old guy, I'll yell this so you can hear it: "QUIT BEING RUDE AND TRY SQUATTING SO YOU DON'T BOTHER GOOD FOLKS AND GOOD DOGS!!! TRY IT!!! YOU'LL LIKE IT!!!"

I'm sure he heard that: I yelled really loud.

missmolly: "I would hate to use a thunderbox. Holes in the ground are full of spiders! Anyone who's squatted to poop can feel that squatting is how we are made to poop. It's so easy! If you're married to sitting or too stiff to squat, then sit on a log and cantilever your back porch.


On Crown Land, there are no thunderboxes, but there are public toilets, aka low, flat rocks where birds and beavers find it easy to poop. That's where I poop too. Being public facilities, there's water right there for washing afterwards. Nice view too.
"

BWCA rules require you to use the latrine when at a designated campsite. If you aren't at a designated campsite you are required to cathole your waste at least 150 feet from shore. The same for wastewater from using soap. Using soap in a lake is prohibited.

I likely would have handled it like you...probably gave him the stink eye, but allowed him to use the latrine. When he became rude - my answer would have been similiar to yours. "Dude - you're at our campsite uninvited. Time for you to leave"

Bears, wolves, moose, almost any wild critter, has the potential to cause us harm but I don't believe they act out of malice or with the intention of hurting us. People on the other hand, do horrible things every day for no other reason but because they can. That campsite is my home while I occupy it. The guy would not have set foot on shore at my camp.

I would act differently for a medical emergency or bad weather but in this case the guy can s..t in his hat before I let him in my camp.

"The guy would not have set foot on shore at my camp."

Okay, what would you do? I ask partly because I'm working on a short story right now that was sparked by an anecdote a bwca.comer told about two guys in a canoe with an axe who declared they'd be sharing the bwca.comer's campsite. He pushed them away, triggering cussing. Would you push him off the shore too?

missmolly: "I would hate to use a thunderbox. Holes in the ground are full of spiders! Anyone who's squatted to poop can feel that squatting is how we are made to poop. It's so easy! If you're married to sitting or too stiff to squat, then sit on a log and cantilever your back porch.


On Crown Land, there are no thunderboxes, but there are public toilets, aka low, flat rocks where birds and beavers find it easy to poop. That's where I poop too. Being public facilities, there's water right there for washing afterwards. Nice view too.


Anyway, rude, old guy, I'll yell this so you can hear it: "QUIT BEING RUDE AND TRY SQUATTING SO YOU DON'T BOTHER GOOD FOLKS AND GOOD DOGS!!! TRY IT!!! YOU'LL LIKE IT!!!"


I'm sure he heard that: I yelled really loud. "

When I was younger, I have camped on Crown Land, and also in Quetico. One of the reasons we made the change to the BWCA is because at an early age (early 40's) I developed arthritis and it became severe more quickly than for most people. Knees, feet, ankles, spine, shoulders, hands, etc. You name it. Squatting, an activity I had taken for granted, became painful and sometimes almost impossible. For me, the "thunderbox" (we always called it the "biffy",) saved wilderness camping for me, as it made it much more comfortable and lessened my chance of a painful fall. (Yup, had a couple of those when trying to squat.)

So I disagree about the distastefulness of the box, as compared to the alternative for someone like me. Now, having said that, if I had an emergency while paddling and really needed the box, we would stop at a vacant campsite or find some deep woods if possible. We were lucky, as we did our traveling in the olden days when most people didn't basecamp, so in the paddling part of the day there was usually a campsite available.

This never happened to us, but if a real emergency had developed and I had felt the need to approach an occupied site to ask to use the facilities, you can bet that I would have been most apologetic and very, VERY polite about it. I would have called up before putting my foot on the site, and only have come ashore if given permission. I think if I had done that, permission would probably have been granted by most campers, and it would have been a congenial meeting. At least I would hope so.

A person barging into a campsite and announcing what they are about to do is just so foreign to my experiences that it takes my breath away.

However, I can also remember a time when we did approach a campsite (for another reason) and ask to come on site. I thought we were very clear about our intentions and very polite. I later read a description of that same encounter posted here on this website and it was a story very much unlike what really happened. Totally fabricated in some areas, and overdramatized in others. So when people say that there are always two sides to any story, I find I am believing that more than I would have before I had that upsetting experience.

NOT saying that Bobcatmaster isn't being completely clear and honest in his recollections of the event. I am sure this particular incident happened just as described. Rudeness is very hard to deal with, and personally, I am just glad to learn that the man took his leave and the situation didn't escalate.

Language warning...

You could also employ the clever charm offensive from the always irreverent Ricky Gervais.

As a parent to 2 wondeful and completely honest children I will stress that there are always 2 sides of every story. Both sides of the re-telling can be 100% true but remain completely opposite in theme.

From OP's perspective old man is rude intruder but, we don't know the equally true story from the aged distracted male visitor's side.

Remember: "don't judge a man until you've portaged his canoe 320 rods in his soiled drawers"

There's a movie called "Vantage Point" about an attempted assassination of the president of the United States and various people are interviewed after the failed attempt and each has a starkly different story to tell and the truth must be gleaned from bits of each story.

Yeah, Squatting + Arthritis =/= A Good Poop

merlyn, I wouldn't fight. I'd flee if I sensed that violence was impending. I'm a bunny, not a bear. Heck, even bears frequently flee. However, if I were Hank the Tank, I wouldn't budge.

missmolly: ""The guy would not have set foot on shore at my camp."


Okay, what would you do? I ask partly because I'm working on a short story right now that was sparked by an anecdote a bwca.comer told about two guys in a canoe with an axe who declared they'd be sharing the bwca.comer's campsite. He pushed them away, triggering cussing. Would you push him off the shore too? "

MM, I would like to read this story when done and published. Or email it to me if you don't publish it. I'll send you some MN maple syrup and wild rice in exchange.

Maybe he had to go do bad his brain turned to s..t! Did you check his eyes? Were they brown and then another color when he left?

This won't happen on Isle Royale. People share campsites when needed and dogs are not allowed.

As they say on the Rez...white people problems.

In no way do I blame Bobcatmaster for this one. I blame the dumbo guy in the motorboat. Good grief just pull up to any shoreline and get out, walk in the woods and find a tree. Its really not that hard to figure out. People have been doing this since the beginning of time.
I also have to heap some blame on the Forest service. Something really needs to be spelled out on the back of the permit, in the printed rules, in the video that you watch about coming into someone’s campsite. Most people I’ve talked to here and up there consider the campsite you are camping in as home. I’m not knocking at your door to use the bathroom.
As Far as what I would do. I trip with 4 to 8 guys depending on the trip. So I would have no problem letting someone into camp to use the thunder box. Families with kids, all ladies in the group, young adults, totally different thing.
So until someone addresses this, this behavior will continue.

jillpine: "

missmolly: ""The guy would not have set foot on shore at my camp."



Okay, what would you do? I ask partly because I'm working on a short story right now that was sparked by an anecdote a bwca.comer told about two guys in a canoe with an axe who declared they'd be sharing the bwca.comer's campsite. He pushed them away, triggering cussing. Would you push him off the shore too? "

MM, I would like to read this story when done and published. Or email it to me if you don't publish it. I'll send you some MN maple syrup and wild rice in exchange.
"

DEAL!

Maiingan: "This won't happen on Isle Royale. People share campsites when needed and dogs are not allowed.


As they say on the Rez...white people problems."

I’ve been to Isle Royale and I remember this rule, and I camped with others there too. I had no problem with it because I knew the rule to share campsites. But the BWCA is not Isle Royale, it not Yellowstone, its not Denali, and it’s not spelled out for people. Everyone has a different set of rules. One person says no way, it would have ended badly, others say no problem. Spell out the rule or this will keep happening.

The fact that it was an older fellow makes me think this was a bit of an emergency. Granted, I am giving HUGE benefit of the doubt. Sounds like he could've softened his delivery quite a bit. Personally, I would've 'bushwhacked' to a toilet on shore somewhere as opposed to barging into an occupied campsite. That might not have been an option given age, balance, ability to hold it, etc...

Maiingan: "This won't happen on Isle Royale. People share campsites when needed and dogs are not allowed.


As they say on the Rez...white people problems."

What’s your point? It wasn’t Isle Royale…If it was Chicago it would of turned out different you need to buy something to use a restroom…same relevance to the OP…none :)

T

bobbernumber3: "Somehow, I think there is another side of this story or missing details...


Yes, odd that the guy seemed to march right into your site. But it seems the unrestrained dog added to the difficult situation and upset.


And the threat by you of using the dog to remove him from camp was probably not a good call."

I know we are only getting one side but the fact the guy even came into a site with a dog barking, then allegedly stayed there telling them to restrain the dog is very weird…

My thought is that it was an emergency, and once done, his concern about the dog (or maybe a grumpy disposition) made him come across as a jerk.

Similar situation but different circumstances: i did a solo granite river trip this year, and made my way to a gorgeous island site with red pines on Sag around 10am. I found a 1.75 bottle of vodka with maybe a 1/2 liter left by the firegrate when I arrived. I had just finished getting my hammock and tarp up when I noticed a motor boat with two 30 something fellas coming in near my canoe. Assuming they'd been at the site the night before and were back for their forgotten bottle, I grabbed it and held it up to them and started making my way down. They asked if I was staying at the site and I said that I was. They said that they'd talked to the prior campers and were tying to get this site and that I'd "snuck in on them". I indicated it was a first come first serve kind of deal. They asked if I was on my own, and if they could join and could we party. I said "no, I'm out here to be on my own". They said they were a party of 6 and at a bad site I shrugged and I told them I'd be exiting tomorrow and they could try then. They stopped talking and sped off.

This was the first conversation I'd had in about 5 days, so it kind of replayed in my head for a while. I got more frustrated as time went on, either they didn't know or care how things work out there. Though I did think it sort of funny that I greeted them by holding up a mostly drank 1.75 at 10am.

The campsite likely was the only place with a landing for this guy's motorboat. He was unprepared and caused himself an emergency... shoulda had a coffee can or bucket in his boat. Did he even have TP?

My first assumption in reading this anecdote was that it was a skirmish in the war between those want mining/motorboats/developed shorelines and those who want canoes/quiet/wilderness. After reading the entire thread and cognitively chewing on this for days, i'm sticking with my first assumption, which is that a guy with a motorboat, in declaring usage of the bathroom, was declaring that Basswood belongs to the motorboaters and canoeists need to step aside.

Savage Voyageur: "
I also have to heap some blame on the Forest service. Something really needs to be spelled out on the back of the permit, in the printed rules, in the video that you watch about coming into someone’s campsite. Most people I’ve talked to here and up there consider the campsite you are camping in as home. I’m not knocking at your door to use the bathroom.
"

I agree completely. This issue of uninvited guests in campsites has come up several times here, so it must be somewhat of a regular occurrence. I have looked and tried to find a definitive answer in the regs and other FS sources, and can't find anything. There should be some guidance about whether occupied campsites are considered off-limits to other users.

missmolly: "My first assumption in reading this anecdote was that it was a skirmish in the war between those want mining/motorboats/developed shorelines and those who want canoes/quiet/wilderness. After reading the entire thread and cognitively chewing on this for days, i'm sticking with my first assumption, which is that a guy with a motorboat, in declaring usage of the bathroom, was declaring that Basswood belongs to the motorboaters and canoeists need to step aside. "

You may very well be correct. But if that is the case, it is not going to change, no matter how many new guidelines the Forest Service comes up with.

can someone verify the rule in the BWCA an occupied campsite is not open to use? with decades of BWCA use I have never seen such a rule - only the rule that 'can not exceed 9 people or 4 watercraft'

Sometimes when something is blatantly obvious you don't need to write the actual rule.

Chieflonewatie: "Sometimes when something is blatantly obvious you don't need to write the actual rule.
"

If only this were true, but in litigious America, bleach and lye come with "Do not swallow. You will die. Really. No lie." warnings.

If it were my camp, I'd have controlled my dog and perhaps even offered to secure the guy's boat for him thinking it my good deed for the day.

Reversing roles, I'd have to be truly desperate as I'd fear someone might lighten my tackle box or something while I was, umm, vulnerable to such unsportsmanlike like conduct.

uqme2: "If it were my camp, I'd have controlled my dog and perhaps even offered to secure the guy's boat for him thinking it my good deed for the day.
"

+1... thanks for reading my mind!

I’d have just said... make sure you flush!

As rude as it was, letting it get under your skin was your deal. But I agree the guy could have / should have gone somewhere else.

timatkn: "

Maiingan: "This won't happen on Isle Royale. People share campsites when needed and dogs are not allowed.



As they say on the Rez...white people problems."

What’s your point? It wasn’t Isle Royale…If it was Chicago it would of turned out different you need to buy something to use a restroom…same relevance to the OP…none :)


T"

I was trying to make the point even the crunchy crowd shares in other places.

But on the other hand maybe people were not so welcoming... so they had to make a rule letting people know they do not own the park.

You are right in Chicago it would have turned out different. Almost 800 murders there last year.

I was raised that you treat everyone the way you would want your Grandparents treated. Words I try to live by.

Maiingan: "...You are right in Chicago it would have turned out different..."

Two guys from Illinois meet in the BW. And this encounter is the result.

Not even sure I could articulate my understanding or confusion of this scenario or what I would do if faced with an uninvited visitor such as this . Something doesn't add up for me. Anyway, it happened and I feel like if it happened to me, I would still be standing at camp asking myself and dog; "Did that just happen?"

OneMatch: "I would have written down (or taken a pic) of his boat number info and reported him to the USFS when I took out."

For what?? Rude behavior…although he was completely out of line it wasn’t illegal, no need to bother the USFS, just understand people suck sometimes. Ignore them and try not to let it get to you.

As a 67 year old I probably qualify to be an "old guy." It's a pain to have problems with your bowels. I am at the place in life that almost any extended time slot requires an imodium pill. I've had some horrible embarassments not getting to a place to go when I needed to go. Just saying...

This reminds me of a few years ago when my wife and I were camping on Sandpoint in Voyageurs National Park. A boat pulled up to our site and a women and her dog got out while the man stayed with the boat. She hardly looked at us but said “my dog needs to go to the bathroom”. She disappeared in the direction of our privy while her dog proceeded to pee on everything including our tent. The shocked look on my wife’s face was priceless. I couldn’t stop laughing. The guy in the boat couldn’t even look at us.
Sometimes it’s best to look for the humor.

This sounds like an older person who was embarrassed by the continence of their body, was facing an emergency, chose the path to what is permitted for defecation in the BWCA (taking a dump in a latrine), and covered for his embarrassment by blustering at something he thought he could control, mainly the actions of a dog, to cover for something he couldn't control, his bowels.

The guy was embarrassed that he had to drop a duce in a strangers house and acted like John Wayne to cover for his embarrassment.

There is an old joke my wife and I share as we get passed/cutoff/nearly run over by assholes on the roads...."Maybe they have to poop real bad."

There are places on basswood that have a history of different uses. There are places that have things like chives and herbs. He maybe had something stashed and he was checking on it. Pretty harmless.

I agree that the situation was likely urgent. A bowel malfunction. I personally get a good laugh from poop stories. Once on a hike below the Tetons, I was clenching for about a mile before letting loose just before me backside hit the seat in the nearest porta pottie. My lovely wife was laughing for days.

Keep your dog safe and close to you. You are your dogs protector.

not signed in: "can someone verify the rule in the BWCA an occupied campsite is not open to use? with decades of BWCA use I have never seen such a rule - only the rule that 'can not exceed 9 people or 4 watercraft' "

There is no printed rule, nothing mentioned on the video everyone has to watch concerning complete strangers in your camp. Only thing that is clearly stated is 9 people 4 canoe rule. So if its not spelled out clearly for everyone, we will continue to have stories like this.

All I ask of the Forest Service is to spell it out clearly. Ether state that the campsite is only yours and no one else unless an emergency, or state that the campsite can handle up to the max person, boat number. Even then you would need a large campsite to handle a large group moving in. I’ve been to campsites that have one good, one not so good pad and that’s all. So, with the fact that some sites are small, it should be printed out what the expectations are.

Minnesotian: "
This sounds like an older person who was embarrassed by the continence of their body, was facing an emergency, chose the path to what is permitted for defecation in the BWCA (taking a dump in a latrine), and covered for his embarrassment by blustering at something he thought he could control, mainly the actions of a dog, to cover for something he couldn't control, his bowels.


The guy was embarrassed that he had to drop a duce in a strangers house and acted like John Wayne to cover for his embarrassment.


There is an old joke my wife and I share as we get passed/cutoff/nearly run over by assholes on the roads...."Maybe they have to poop real bad.""

Hey, you're a little like me: When someone whooshes past me on the road, I say, "That's the world's foremost brain surgeon, off to save a desperate child in need of life-saving surgery. No wonder they're speeding."

Porkeater: "

Savage Voyageur: "
I also have to heap some blame on the Forest service. Something really needs to be spelled out on the back of the permit, in the printed rules, in the video that you watch about coming into someone’s campsite. Most people I’ve talked to here and up there consider the campsite you are camping in as home. I’m not knocking at your door to use the bathroom.
"

I agree completely. This issue of uninvited guests in campsites has come up several times here, so it must be somewhat of a regular occurrence. I have looked and tried to find a definitive answer in the regs and other FS sources, and can't find anything. There should be some guidance about whether occupied campsites are considered off-limits to other users. "

(Edited because it looked like I was specifically responding to Porkeater in a sarcastic manner—-sorry) This is more of a general response to those asking for clarification from the FS.

I swear the 3 videos you are supposed to watch before picking up your permit address this issue. There was something in there about avoiding occupied campsites and that people go to this wilderness place for solitude. I think is another key item is that the BWCAW is a wilderness. People making comparisons to other outdoor areas where campsites are shared are forgetting the wilderness designation of the BWCAW. That is an important distinction. It really surprises me how anyone can think it is okay to go into an occupied campsite, it violates the inherent tenants of the wilderness experience and seems to be common sense…but as others have pointed out maybe the FS needs to spell this out better if so many are treating it like Isle Royale, SHT, or the Appalachian trail…all of which are completely different designations/areas.

I am sensitive to this as we had a group of 9 men force their way into my wife’s and my site in 2009. It was initially very scary, then realized just a group of entitled ignorant A-Holes but weren’t going to cause us harm. None the less no one should feel that way even if for just a few minutes.

To the OP…I would of handled it differently knowing the full story now (maybe you would too) but you did nothing wrong. I can tell you from experience It is very unsettling when someone just comes into your camp and makes demands vs. asks for permission. The motorboat guy had options and he chose poorly and handled his final option poorly. That’s on him not you.

T

timatkn: "

Porkeater: "

Savage Voyageur: "
I also have to heap some blame on the Forest service. Something really needs to be spelled out on the back of the permit, in the printed rules, in the video that you watch about coming into someone’s campsite. Most people I’ve talked to here and up there consider the campsite you are camping in as home. I’m not knocking at your door to use the bathroom.
"

I agree completely. This issue of uninvited guests in campsites has come up several times here, so it must be somewhat of a regular occurrence. I have looked and tried to find a definitive answer in the regs and other FS sources, and can't find anything. There should be some guidance about whether occupied campsites are considered off-limits to other users. "

Does everyone posting for clarification if sites can be shared completely ignore the videos you are supposed to watch? I know after I booked my trip the FS sent me links to YouTube videos I was supposed to watch before picking up my permit. It clearly says DO NOT approach occupied campsites because this area has a wilderness designation and people go to the BWCAW for privacy …what else are they supposed to do???? Have airplanes constantly flying over the BWCAW with this message, put signs up at camps…for God’s sake it is a wilderness designation that specifically states campsites are first come first served…having a tiny bit of common sense this doesn’t mean a second group can come come in…it means once a campsite is occupied it is taken. I am just really amazed that there is any confusion on this…
"

I didn't ignore a damn thing. It seems pretty clear to me that those asking these questions are the ones who agree that occupied campsites are just that, occupied. Why is it unreasonable to ask whether there is a rule that backs up what seems to be the appropriate behavior. Clearly not everyone watches or heeds the video if this pops up from time to time. It would be nice if there were published guidance to point to if there is a dispute rather than just saying, "hey, didn't you watch the video?"

I actually did email the SNF office to ask this question yesterday. The response I received was basically what we all have been saying, that it's common courtesy and consistent with LNT to not bother people on an occupied site, but there is no specific rule. At least the FS employee didn't accuse me of not having common sense.

Sorry Porkeater I had already edited my post as I realized it came off wrong. Wasn’t directed at you. I was editing it as yiu were responding. Hopefully my edits make more sense. This hit me personally from a previous scary experience I had. Once again nothing to do with you. I apologize.

T

timatkn: "Sorry Porkeater I had already edited my post as I realized it came off wrong. Wasn’t directed at you. I was editing it as yiu were responding. Hopefully my edits make more sense. This hit me personally from a previous scary experience I had. Once again nothing to do with you. I apologize.


T"

Thanks. All is good.

I guess everything has pretty much been covered here, but I'll add that I do feel like the dog should have been controlled/taken out of the equation. It's not totally clear if the dog was leashed or anything, but it seems like this interaction could have gone better if the dog wasn't hollering at the guy. OP seems to talk about it as a fairly well-trained dog that was defending its territory/people, but if that's the case, it should be able to be called off as well. So the adults in the room call the shots, not the animals. Allowing the guy to get back to his boat without having to fight off the dog would be a good thing.

Meanwhile, folks at some campsite downwind were probably wondering why a dog is barking incessantly and why people were yelling.

treehorn: "I guess everything has pretty much been covered here, but I'll add that I do feel like the dog should have been controlled/taken out of the equation. It's not totally clear if the dog was leashed or anything, but it seems like this interaction could have gone better if the dog wasn't hollering at the guy. OP seems to talk about it as a fairly well-trained dog that was defending its territory/people, but if that's the case, it should be able to be called off as well. So the adults in the room call the shots, not the animals. Allowing the guy to get back to his boat without having to fight off the dog would be a good thing. "

I agree, to an extent, especially having the benefit of analyzing the situation after the fact. What I'd like to point out is in the heat of the moment, when someone enters your campsite uninvited, and since I have been in this situation, I can honestly say in the heat of the moment it probably initially appeared to be aggressive act...the comfort of that person entering your camp isn't your priority. There is a shock and disbelief you are trying to process. “What the heck is going hear?”

To me, I read it differently, the guy had room to leave even though the dog was barking...albeit the dog was probably aggressively barking...but the guy still stopped to yell at them. A guy entering camp with a barking dog, not asking, stopping to yell are HUGE red flag behaviors. Maybe he had a bathroom emergency and it affected his behavior but I am not going to second guess anything the OP did as it is scary...

If you haven't been in the situation it's hard to understand. I've had situations where people needed to use the latrine, help, directions, advice, even a visitor who just socialized. All of those went well because the group/person entering were polite and announced themselves so I am not some psycho that's afraid of people :) ...but I am going to reiterate when this happened to my wife and I it was disturbing. When I retold the story on this website I did it through the lens of knowing there wasn't any danger and did not retell how I felt at that the moment of time it was initially happening. I did not articulate the danger/fear we felt, I downplayed it after the fact. That's what most people do in these type of stories. Just keep that in mind.

T

My take?

In days of old, when men were bold, and toilets not invented,
They dropped their load beside the road, and walked away contented.

One million acres of land readily available. . .and a grown “man” can’t find a place to do his business in private without bothering strangers?

So, I’m thinking that the dog wasn’t barking at him, but simply trying to explain in plain english how he (or she) routinely conducts his (or her) business when faced with similar circumstances.

RunningFox: "My take?


In days of old, when men were bold, and toilets not invented,
They dropped their load beside the road, and walked away contented.


One million acres of land readily available. . .and a grown “man” can’t find a place to do his business in private without bothering strangers?


So, I’m thinking that the dog wasn’t barking at him, but simply trying to explain in plain english how he (or she) routinely conducts his (or her) business when faced with similar circumstances."

Love it.

And I think I agree.

RunningFox: "

One million acres of land readily available. . .and...."

... and very few motor boat parking spots.

Still a man with a plan and a can wouldn't have had to land.

timatkn: "

Porkeater: "

Savage Voyageur: "
I also have to heap some blame on the Forest service. Something really needs to be spelled out on the back of the permit, in the printed rules, in the video that you watch about coming into someone’s campsite. Most people I’ve talked to here and up there consider the campsite you are camping in as home. I’m not knocking at your door to use the bathroom.
"

I agree completely. This issue of uninvited guests in campsites has come up several times here, so it must be somewhat of a regular occurrence. I have looked and tried to find a definitive answer in the regs and other FS sources, and can't find anything. There should be some guidance about whether occupied campsites are considered off-limits to other users. "

(Edited because it looked like I was specifically responding to Porkeater in a sarcastic manner—-sorry) This is more of a general response to those asking for clarification from the FS.

I swear the 3 videos you are supposed to watch before picking up your permit address this issue. There was something in there about avoiding occupied campsites and that people go to this wilderness place for solitude. I think is another key item is that the BWCAW is a wilderness. People making comparisons to other outdoor areas where campsites are shared are forgetting the wilderness designation of the BWCAW. That is an important distinction. It really surprises me how anyone can think it is okay to go into an occupied campsite, it violates the inherent tenants of the wilderness experience and seems to be common sense…but as others have pointed out maybe the FS needs to spell this out better if so many are treating it like Isle Royale, SHT, or the Appalachian trail…all of which are completely different designations/areas.

I am sensitive to this as we had a group of 9 men force their way into my wife’s and my site in 2009. It was initially very scary, then realized just a group of entitled ignorant A-Holes but weren’t going to cause us harm. None the less no one should feel that way even if for just a few minutes.

To the OP…I would of handled it differently knowing the full story now (maybe you would too) but you did nothing wrong. I can tell you from experience It is very unsettling when someone just comes into your camp and makes demands vs. asks for permission. The motorboat guy had options and he chose poorly and handled his final option poorly. That’s on him not you.

T"

I would like to know exactly where it is stated where it says about avoiding occupied campsite. So please post a link to one of the three You Tube Forest service videos we all need to watch, stating exactly time stamp you are referring to. All three are easily looked up on You Tube. If there is a BWCA rules or regulations that states this please post that link.

You say it’s common sense not to go into another occupied campsite and I agree with you. But like the old saying goes, common sense is not that common. So if I missed reading that or in the video or a published brochure please educate me.

The perpetrator,let’s call him #2, should have been overly apologetic and very humble after the afore mentioned intrusion and expulsion of unstoppable excrement.Regardless of the behavior of the witness,we will call him K-9 in order to maintain anonymity.

RunningFox: "My take?


In days of old, when men were bold, and toilets not invented,
They dropped their load beside the road, and walked away contented.


One million acres of land readily available. . .and a grown “man” can’t find a place to do his business in private without bothering strangers?


So, I’m thinking that the dog wasn’t barking at him, but simply trying to explain in plain english how he (or she) routinely conducts his (or her) business when faced with similar circumstances."

In the old days, like when I was a younger? We would stop at one of the 20 resorts. Then when we were done with our business, we would get a beer and flirt with the swampies.

RunningFox: "My take?


In days of old, when men were bold, and toilets not invented,
They dropped their load beside the road, and walked away contented.


One million acres of land readily available. . .and a grown “man” can’t find a place to do his business in private without bothering strangers?


So, I’m thinking that the dog wasn’t barking at him, but simply trying to explain in plain english how he (or she) routinely conducts his (or her) business when faced with similar circumstances."

This says it all RunningFox. And I agree. Trees and corn fields aplenty!

Doublelung76: "The perpetrator,let’s call him #2, should have been overly apologetic and very humble after the afore mentioned intrusion and expulsion of unstoppable excrement.Regardless of the behavior of the witness,we will call him K-9 in order to maintain anonymity."

^The author of this post, let's call him Funnybritches76, sure made me laugh.^

So...there was a time when a friend and I snowmobiled into a cabin near the BWCA in mid-winter. A very cold outhouse was available to meet your needs. After too much coffee there was a rush to the outhouse, yet not enough speed or time. A completely full pair of underwear was left out in the cold and snow where it froze solid then was put in a garbage bag. The garbage took the ride home on the trailer. Somewhere along 35 we pulled off to get gas at a Holiday station. The garbage bag (not a big bag) was deposited in the trash can between the pumps. From inside the store we watched with surprise to see someone rush to that trash can and run away with our garbage bag. I suppose they thought they would find some treasure in it. They found something but not treasure. :)