BWCA Watercraft defined? Boundary Waters Listening Point - General Discussion
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analyzer
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05/03/2022 11:21PM  
So my wife and I decided to go base camping with her brother (M), sister-in-law (T) and their two pre-teenagers. M has been to the boundary waters many times, but his wife T, has only been there once, and this will be the first time for the kids. T has bad knees, so any kind of a loop is out of the question.

The kids want to bring their relatively small, sit on top kayaks. There is no storage on those things, and we'll be crossing sag. I don't feel comfortable having someone cross sag on one of those. Certainly not in white caps.

M and T are both heavier individuals, and their son isn't small. M tends to pack more on the heavier side as well. I don't think it's realistic to get six of us in two canoes, with all of our gear, and pull the two kayaks. I think we're better off with three canoes.

The kids really want to bring those kayaks to paddle around at camp. Is there a minimum length that defines watercraft? There is only six of us. Can we have three canoes and tow those two kayaks, or not? I looked around the regs and there doesn't seem to be a definition of what constitutes a watercraft. I would guess the answer is no.

We're not portaging so that doesn't come into play. Just trying to figure out a way the kids can bring their sit on top kayaks. I'm guessing we're going to be limited to one, but thought I check with the forum to see if anyone knows.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.
 
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billconner
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05/04/2022 06:32AM  
People have tripped in SUPs so I'd guess sit on kayaks are fine. Sorry.
 
tumblehome
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05/04/2022 07:07AM  
“ I looked around the regs, and there doesn't seem to be a definition of what constitutes a watercraft.”

But did you really look? A rudimentary Google search gives it to you on the first heading.

LICENSING YOUR BOAT
All motorized watercraft regardless of length and nonmotorized watercraft over
10 feet must be licensed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The types of watercraft that must be licensed include, but are not limited to, motorboats, rowboats, sailboats, sailboards, stand-up paddleboards,
canoes, kayaks, paddle boats, rowing shells or sculls, all-terrain vehicles used in the water and inflatable craft.

Here are the complete MN boating regulations.

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/boatingguide.pdf
 
05/04/2022 07:58AM  
I'd think three canoes and two kayaks would get you a ticket.
 
analyzer
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05/04/2022 08:10AM  
tumblehome: "“ I looked around the regs, and there doesn't seem to be a definition of what constitutes a watercraft.”

But did you really look? A rudimentary Google search gives it to you on the first heading.


LICENSING YOUR BOAT
All motorized watercraft regardless of length and nonmotorized watercraft over
10 feet must be licensed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The types of watercraft that must be licensed include, but are not limited to, motorboats, rowboats, sailboats, sailboards, stand-up paddleboards,
canoes, kayaks, paddle boats, rowing shells or sculls, all-terrain vehicles used in the water and inflatable craft.


Here are the complete MN boating regulations.


https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/boatingguide.pdf "


Thank you for that Tumblehome. I was aware of what lengths need to be licensed, but just because a kayak is under 10 feet, and doesn't need to be licensed, doesn't necessarily mean the BWCA won't count it as a watercraft. A child under 16 doesn't need a fishing license, but fishing limits still apply. A 7 ft kayak may not need a license but it might still count against our 4 watercraft.
 
gravelroad
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05/04/2022 08:11AM  
tumblehome: "“ I looked around the regs, and there doesn't seem to be a definition of what constitutes a watercraft.”

But did you really look? A rudimentary Google search gives it to you on the first heading.


LICENSING YOUR BOAT
All motorized watercraft regardless of length and nonmotorized watercraft over
10 feet must be licensed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The types of watercraft that must be licensed include, but are not limited to, motorboats, rowboats, sailboats, sailboards, stand-up paddleboards,
canoes, kayaks, paddle boats, rowing shells or sculls, all-terrain vehicles used in the water and inflatable craft.


Here are the complete MN boating regulations.


https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/boatingguide.pdf "


The state of Minnesota has absolutely no say in what a "watercraft" is for purposes of federal regulation in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness.

Without bothering to look it up, I will say without fear of contradiction that a sit-on-top kayak of any length is going to be viewed by the Forest Service as a watercraft for this purpose. And having seen what had to be done to overcome the limitations of one on Isabella in windy conditions, I do not advocate venturing onto Sag on one.
 
analyzer
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05/04/2022 08:17AM  
I spoke with Sandy at the Gunflint Ranger Station. It doesn't matter what length the kayaks are, they count towards the 4 water craft rule. So if we bring three canoes, we can NOT bring two little kayaks for the kids.
 
analyzer
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05/04/2022 08:21AM  
gravelroad: "And having seen what had to be done to overcome the limitations of one on Isabella in windy conditions, I do not advocate venturing onto Sag on one."

I agree with you. I've been on Sag fifty times and I don't like the idea of even towing unloaded plastic kayaks. If the wind gets whipping, it's going to cause problems.

 
05/04/2022 09:14AM  
billconner: "People have tripped in SUPs so I'd guess sit on kayaks are fine. Sorry."


Yes, I understand that it can be done. But in this case, I wouldn't let kids' wants interfere with trip safety. Sometimes you have to say no to your kids and explain that this is not what a BW canoe trip is about.
 
05/04/2022 09:55AM  
If you are not portaging it sounds like you are camping on Saganaga. You could get a tow to a campsite with two canoes and two little kayaks.
 
nooneuno
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05/04/2022 10:01AM  
Food for thought, I had a couple friends that thought they would tow small kayak behind a canoe so they could separate for fishing, they made 1/2 mile and dragged the yak into the bush and there it stayed for the rest of the week due to wind, waves, and tracking issues.
 
gravelroad
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05/04/2022 10:14AM  
nooneuno: "Food for thought, I had a couple friends that thought they would tow small kayak behind a canoe so they could separate for fishing, they made 1/2 mile and dragged the yak into the bush and there it stayed for the rest of the week due to wind, waves, and tracking issues."


I dread having to answer at the pearly gates for all the SOTs I sold to the public over the years. Except for the long ones, they are atrocious when it comes to tracking and hull speed.
 
05/04/2022 10:31AM  
Bring three canoes and one kayak. The kids will have to share one. Then they still have their fun. If they can't share then they can't bring it. The parents have to tow the thing.
 
Savage Voyageur
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05/04/2022 01:40PM  
 
Jackfish
Moderator
  
05/04/2022 03:59PM  
analyzer: "...and their two pre-teenagers on top kayaks. "

Two pre-teenagers means 12 years old or younger. (I figured that out all by myself. lol) Two kids that young on sit-on-top kayaks paddling Sag isn't a good plan. Even if it's calm the day you paddle in, it most likely won't be calm on the way out. The safety of the kids, and those who would have to rescue them if they dumped, should be the most important decision maker. I would leave the kayaks at home.
 
05/04/2022 04:24PM  
I did a trip with a buddy who thought it was a good idea to bring a small kayak for his 2 kids. After the ride in to Bald Eagle Lake via the Snake River it sat for a week then had to be hauled back out, wasn’t worth it. Don’t think taking one to a big lake like Saganaga is a good idea, but I kinda think you knew that. Let the kids have their own canoe and see how that goes first.
 
05/04/2022 05:19PM  
analyzer: "
tumblehome: "“ I looked around the regs, and there doesn't seem to be a definition of what constitutes a watercraft.”

But did you really look? A rudimentary Google search gives it to you on the first heading.

LICENSING YOUR BOAT
All motorized watercraft regardless of length and nonmotorized watercraft over
10 feet must be licensed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The types of watercraft that must be licensed include, but are not limited to, motorboats, rowboats, sailboats, sailboards, stand-up paddleboards,
canoes, kayaks, paddle boats, rowing shells or sculls, all-terrain vehicles used in the water and inflatable craft.

Here are the complete MN boating regulations.

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/boatingguide.pdf "

Thank you for that Tumblehome. I was aware of what lengths need to be licensed, but just because a kayak is under 10 feet, and doesn't need to be licensed, doesn't necessarily mean the BWCA won't count it as a watercraft. A child under 16 doesn't need a fishing license, but fishing limits still apply. A 7 ft kayak may not need a license but it might still count against our 4 watercraft."

Some states like Illinois do not require canoes and kayaks to be registered. If you are from a state that does not require registration, you don't have to have your canoe or kayak registered for the BW. That wasn't always the cases, btw.
 
analyzer
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05/05/2022 12:08AM  
Jackfish: "
analyzer: "...and their two pre-teenagers on top kayaks. "

Two pre-teenagers means 12 years old or younger. (I figured that out all by myself. lol) Two kids that young on sit-on-top kayaks paddling Sag isn't a good plan. Even if it's calm the day you paddle in, it most likely won't be calm on the way out. The safety of the kids, and those who would have to rescue them if they dumped, should be the most important decision maker. I would leave the kayaks at home."


It was never our intention to have the kids traverse sag on those kayaks. They wanted to use them once we set up base camp, in relatively sheltered water. I don't want to bring them. We went with my wife's other sister and her brother, and their kids and it was the same thing. We towed the kayaks across clearwater, and portaged into Mountain. Those plastic kayaks were a little different, as you could sit IN them. It wasn't fun portaging those into Mountain. And we just had two canoes and two yaks, so we didn't run into the issue we have on this trip. I would prefer the yaks stay home.

I bought a Northwind in 2018, so I could go tripping with my wife. We love it, but now I'm stuck base camping with her relatives. I did base camping for 48 years, I'd rather loop now. But there are pro's and con's to everything. I can bring a few creature comforts base camping (like a screen tent), and my wife really wants to spend some quality time with her brother's family. so be it. I'll play along. I've just been on sag way too many times when it's been treacherous, and really don't want to tow a 7ft plastic kite in those conditions.

 
nooneuno
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05/05/2022 07:31PM  
gravelroad: "
tumblehome: "“ I looked around the regs, and there doesn't seem to be a definition of what constitutes a watercraft.”

But did you really look? A rudimentary Google search gives it to you on the first heading.

LICENSING YOUR BOAT
All motorized watercraft regardless of length and nonmotorized watercraft over
10 feet must be licensed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The types of watercraft that must be licensed include, but are not limited to, motorboats, rowboats, sailboats, sailboards, stand-up paddleboards,
canoes, kayaks, paddle boats, rowing shells or sculls, all-terrain vehicles used in the water and inflatable craft.

Here are the complete MN boating regulations.

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/boatingguide.pdf "

The state of Minnesota has absolutely no say in what a "watercraft" is for purposes of federal regulation in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area "

Interesting perspective, does that mean if the MN DNR stops me in the BWCA I can tell them they have no authority and just pound sand?
 
gravelroad
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05/05/2022 07:39PM  
nooneuno: "
gravelroad: "
tumblehome: "“ I looked around the regs, and there doesn't seem to be a definition of what constitutes a watercraft.”

But did you really look? A rudimentary Google search gives it to you on the first heading.

LICENSING YOUR BOAT
All motorized watercraft regardless of length and nonmotorized watercraft over
10 feet must be licensed by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The types of watercraft that must be licensed include, but are not limited to, motorboats, rowboats, sailboats, sailboards, stand-up paddleboards,
canoes, kayaks, paddle boats, rowing shells or sculls, all-terrain vehicles used in the water and inflatable craft.

Here are the complete MN boating regulations.

https://files.dnr.state.mn.us/rlp/regulations/boatwater/boatingguide.pdf "

The state of Minnesota has absolutely no say in what a "watercraft" is for purposes of federal regulation in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area "

Interesting perspective, does that mean if the MN DNR stops me in the BWCA I can tell them they have no authority and just pound sand?"

They can enforce the federal regulation if the feds have agreed to that (which I think they have). But they can't cite the Minnesota definition as the basis for that. (And BTW, they can enforce the Minnesota hunting and fishing regulations, which they do constantly in the BWCAW.)
 
andym
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05/05/2022 10:33PM  
I have had DNR stop us in the BW and check our PFDs and canoe registration. We didn’t have fishing gear and so they didn’t ask to see fishing licenses. Arguably they were onshore and may have been outside the BW but we were on the water and inside. This was between EP30 and Kawishiwi lodge.
 
Savage Voyageur
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05/06/2022 08:31AM  
nooneuno: "Interesting perspective, does that mean if the MN DNR stops me in the BWCA I can tell them they have no authority and just pound sand?

I hope you were joking. I’ve been stopped two times in the BWCA by DNR officers. They have jurisdiction there.
 
cyclones30
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05/06/2022 12:36PM  
I'd tell them to leave the kayaks at home. It's a safety issue and also illegal.

There are thousands of lakes (literally) in MN or elsewhere if they want to camp and/or paddle their little kid kayaks.
 
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