I’m coming up to do my third border route this September (Kruger Waddel Challenge) and looking to buy a solo canoe. I’ve done it twice on SUP so I know what I’m in for and love the route. I’ve never owned a tripping canoe but have a good bit of day paddling canoe experience so I’d like to get one way before the trip so that I can practice on it.

If you’re a veteran Boundary Waters paddler, what canoe do you own or recommend? If you do own one, what are your likes and dislikes and what would you do differently if you were to get another one?

Thanks

What is your paddling style? Do you prefer sit and switch paddling or more traditional style with some kneeling, Canadian style strokes, heeling the canoe, etc? Do you fish or just like to lay down miles? Do you use a single or double blade paddle?

Since you're talking about a tripping canoe I'm assuming you're less worried about moving water and more about flat water?

All of this would help a great deal.

Personally I like to do both sit and switch and Canadian style paddling depending on the conditions and my mood. I will also sometimes find myself on some gentle moving water on my solo trips and like to do a bit of fishing.

For my paddling style I find that my nova craft fox fits most of my needs really well. It's fast, agile, and light. I paddle with a single blade 90% of the time and find it responds exceptionally well to single blade maneuvers and paddling techniques. It's a pleasure to fish from and when I need to I can really get some speed and distance out of it. The specs might lead you to think it's made more for fishing/leisure and that it might not track well and might be slow, but that hasn't been my experience at all and I can't really explain exactly why. I've done some 20 miles days in it and felt pretty good. The seat is great for switching between sitting and kneeling throughout the day which saves my back a great deal. It's not for a novice paddler though. The initial stability is likely to dump someone who doesn't have a good feel for it.

I think the only thing I'd consider changing about it is the layup. I got mine in standard tuff stuff and I have no gripes about the weight or the durability, but I really don't like the red gel coat as it scratches quite easily and they show quite a bit. Might consider a color that wouldn't show scratches quite so bad, or wish they would make it in a resin/skin coat or something other than the gel...

I'm also learning to pole now as well and I can't pole with the fox, but that's neither here nor there though as I don't think there's a solo canoe out there that's good for poling. :)

Other important questions, besides those asked by keth0601, include:

Your size
Your typical load (one 40# pack? a 50# pack and a 50# barrel? Dog?)

Also, how much value do you put on low weight for ease of portaging?
This last one can be highly correlated to another big item: Budget

6’3 200 lbs. Combo of sit and kneeling. Primarily single blade. Primarily flat water. Mileage is key because 35 plus mile days are necessary for border challenge. (I usually do 45 on the first day). Think 240 miles in 6 or 7 days. Not fishing much. Single 35 lb pack no dog. Lighter the better. My sup weighs 24 lbs but it’s not possible to carry overhead so it’s tough to get through the tight woods. Looking at Wenonah Advantage aramid 32 lbs or graphite at 31 lbs. price is not too critical since I will be using it for many years. I also have been looking at swift and savage river.

Most of the people from this site do camping trips which is different form the border challenge. If you are after a dedicated border challenge boat it will be different from something that the typical 7 day base camper wants. I don’t have a lot of experience in lots of boats. I have spent more than a day in a Bell Magic, Wenona Prism and a Rapid Fire. For the challenge the Rapid Fire wins hands down. On the last challenge I did the first day I did 55 miles. For an old man with no racing experience that was a great day.
Muddy Feet was talking about selling his boat.

For efficiency/speed and Advantage is a good choice- can be a little twitchy in big water, troublesome going perpendicular to waves. Voyageur a bit faster and more seaworthy but more subject to wind. Savage River Blackwater, quicker, lighter and more seaworthy than the Advantage, notably better in big water and cross seas, less subject to wind than Voyageur. Swift 16'8 Cruiser a decent Blackwater alternative with a bit more volume.

Banksiana: "For efficiency/speed and Advantage is a good choice- can be a little twitchy in big water, troublesome going perpendicular to waves. Voyageur a bit faster and more seaworthy but more subject to wind."

Banksiana is right. The Advantage is a fast boat but a little light on freeboard for the bigger lakes. The Voyager is a very fast canoe that runs drier but is less stable.

At the risk of recommending something a little more middle of the road, have you considered the Prism? It's a very fast canoe with plenty of stability and capacity for a run down the border route. Similar seaworthiness to the Voyager with more stability. This is our most versatile and popular solo canoe. It's very much at home in the Boundary Waters.

I own an Encounter and an Advantage. The Advantage is my everyday canoe. The Encounter is for longer trips and bigger water. The Encounter is a big, deep boat. Quite fast. Stable. If I had to grab one of these two canoes to do the trip you're describing, it would be the Encounter. If I was shopping for a single solo canoe to do this trip and pretty much everything else, I would strongly consider the Prism.

Brian

On the subject or freeboard and solo canoes. I personally believe freeboard or increased depth of the hull is overrated and a little ridiculous. In theory you can have a "drier ride" in big seas but this is rarely the case. I've paddled an Advantage since 1986 and both day paddle and trip quite frequently. The only time I've ever shipped significant water was in attempting to surf breaking waves on Lake Michigan. I have crossed Bayley Bay and North Bay of Basswood in conditions that had tandems sheltered on shore (I had little choice) and in which I had no business being out in the waves and wind. I did not ship significant water. In a solo your weight rests in the center of the hull, even a sharp craft like the Advantage the buoyancy of the bow and stern keep the water out of the boat. More freeboard is more hull to catch the wind and present significant navigational challenges on windy and wavy days while at the same time offering a negligible increase in "dryness". People feel "safer" in the deep hulls but in real time experience the depth offers little advantage for the tradeoff of wind pressure and resistance. In my opinion you'd be much better off adding a spray skirt to a shallow hull (if you insist on running in tall curling white caps) than adding extra depth to the hull.

Good intel already provided.

Advantage, NS Magic, SR Blackwater and the Swift 16.8. I've heard mixed reviews on the last (but have not personally paddled it) and have heard of very few who don't love the first three...all of which will get up & go when asked.

Only other one I'd maybe throw in there is the Placid Rapidfire.

sns: "Good intel already provided.


Advantage, NS Magic, SR Blackwater and the Swift 16.8. I've heard mixed reviews on the last (but have not personally paddled it) and have heard of very few who don't love the first three...all of which will get up & go when asked.


Only other one I'd maybe throw in there is the Placid Rapidfire."

I test-paddled a Cruiser 16.8 this past summer, and while it was a joy in most conditions, I was stunned at how difficult it was to maintain a heading with a stiff quartering wind from the stern. I was unloaded, so I couldn't shift weight much to trim, but it was all I could do to track the way I wanted. I wish I could have tried it with a full load to see if there was a difference, but what I did experience was pronounced in ~12-15mph winds. I left wondering if that beavertail flourish on the back of the Cruiser was hampering the performance of an otherwise sleek and beautiful ship...

Conchistador: "6’3 200 lbs. Combo of sit and kneeling. Primarily single blade. Primarily flat water. Mileage is key because 35 plus mile days are necessary for border challenge. (I usually do 45 on the first day). Think 240 miles in 6 or 7 days. Not fishing much. Single 35 lb pack no dog. Lighter the better. My sup weighs 24 lbs but it’s not possible to carry overhead so it’s tough to get through the tight woods. Looking at Wenonah Advantage aramid 32 lbs or graphite at 31 lbs. price is not too critical since I will be using it for many years. I also have been looking at swift and savage river. "

I don't know your goals but if you are trying to win then the Blackwater (which I haven't paddled) and Rapidfire seem to rise to the top. I picked up both a used Advantage and Rapidfire over the past few years and also have several 15 foot solos.

I don't have anywhere near banksiana's experience in an Advantage but what I like about mine is that it loves to cruise and entices you into putting in a little more power. If you paddle harder it goes faster and if you see another boat ahead of you, you're happy to try and run it down. And the Advantage is a nice medium size boat, not too small and not too big (for me Swift Cruiser 16.8 is way too big and I'd bet most people would be faster in the 15.8 or 14.8). You can kneel in an Advantage to give your fanny a break if you like since there is nothing in the way. But the Rapidfire is a step up for sure, super quick and zero effort. If kneeling and sitting are both important to you then you could also consider something like a Hemlock Peregrine or Northstar Trillium...both can easily handle wind and waves and for me the combination of efficiency, speed and comfort (ability to change positions) make this type of boat very effective for covering miles.

Another canoe you might look at if one pops up is the Grass River Boatworks "Classic XL". It is a 16 1/2', narrow, fast canoe in a carbon layup at around 24 lbs., I picked up one a couple of years ago, used, and love it. I took it tripping in the Adirondacks last year and look forward to taking it on my next BWCA trip. I'm 6'1" and 180 lbs. and carried about 55 lbs. of gear with me. The canoe handled some rough, windy water very well.
Keep your eyes open; I saw one on Craigslist a couple of weeks ago.

NikonF5user: "

sns: "Good intel already provided.



Advantage, NS Magic, SR Blackwater and the Swift 16.8. I've heard mixed reviews on the last (but have not personally paddled it) and have heard of very few who don't love the first three...all of which will get up & go when asked.



Only other one I'd maybe throw in there is the Placid Rapidfire."

I test-paddled a Cruiser 16.8 this past summer, and while it was a joy in most conditions, I was stunned at how difficult it was to maintain a heading with a stiff quartering wind from the stern. I was unloaded, so I couldn't shift weight much to trim, but it was all I could do to track the way I wanted. I wish I could have tried it with a full load to see if there was a difference, but what I did experience was pronounced in ~12-15mph winds. I left wondering if that beavertail flourish on the back of the Cruiser was hampering the performance of an otherwise sleek and beautiful ship..."

Nearly all long solos face this wind pressure on the stern difficulty, it's amplified on the Cruiser by the depth of the hull (though by no means as deep as a voyageur or encounter). I paddled the 16.8 Cruiser trading off with the Advantage. In low wind conditions it was as quick as the Advantage but felt much larger, mainly due to the fullness in front of the paddler.

While I think the Advantage and the Blackwater have a greater top-speed than the Rapid-fire; my guess is that the Rapid fire takes considerably less energy to maintain a decent cruising speed. MagicPaddler would know more on this than I would.

"Nearly all long solos face this wind pressure on the stern difficulty, it's amplified on the Cruiser by the depth of the hull (though by no means as deep as a voyageur or encounter). I paddled the 16.8 Cruiser trading off with the Advantage. In low wind conditions it was as quick as the Advantage but felt much larger, mainly due to the fullness in front of the paddler."

One of the things that really impacts the ability of a paddler to hold a solo canoe on course in wind and waves is bow to stern trim. A lot of paddlers don't give trim enough consideration, but it's critical to boat control in mixed conditions. This is especially true in longer solo canoes, those with minimal rocker and deep, high capacity solos.

Trimming your canoe slightly stern down will improve control in following seas including quartering waves. Trimming bow down will keep the bow from blowing away from the wind if you are paddling toward the wind. In most cases, adjusting trim slightly will improve the handling of a solo canoe, even if you are paddling across the wind. Small shifts in trim can have a dramatic impact on how hard you work on a windy day.

The easiest and fastest way to adjust trim on the fly is with a sliding seat. It is possible to move packs, but this can be tough in the middle of a choppy lake. The sliding seat allows to to shift trim immediately and effortlessly by moving the heaviest thing in the boat--the paddler.

Brian

BrianDay: "
The easiest and fastest way to adjust trim on the fly is with a sliding seat. It is possible to move packs, but this can be tough in the middle of a choppy lake. The sliding seat allows to to shift trim immediately and effortlessly by moving the heaviest thing in the boat--the paddler.


Brian"

definitely will be getting sliding seat

BrianDay: "
One of the things that really impacts the ability of a paddler to hold a solo canoe on course in wind and waves is bow to stern trim. A lot of paddlers don't give trim enough consideration, but it's critical to boat control in mixed conditions. This is especially true in longer solo canoes, those with minimal rocker and deep, high capacity solos.


Trimming your canoe slightly stern down will improve control in following seas including quartering waves. Trimming bow down will keep the bow from blowing away from the wind if you are paddling toward the wind. In most cases, adjusting trim slightly will improve the handling of a solo canoe, even if you are paddling across the wind. Small shifts in trim can have a dramatic impact on how hard you work on a windy day.


The easiest and fastest way to adjust trim on the fly is with a sliding seat. It is possible to move packs, but this can be tough in the middle of a choppy lake. The sliding seat allows to to shift trim immediately and effortlessly by moving the heaviest thing in the boat--the paddler.


Brian"

As Brian notes the easiest way to adjust trim is to move the paddler. I can't imagine purchasing a center-seated solo with a fixed seat.

An interesting note is that long straight-tracking hulls when subject to wind from the side tend to weathervane with the bow "trying" to come about and point into the wind. It's a little counter-intuitive as many of the faster hulls have significantly higher bows than stern and one would think that the greater "sail" area of the bow would cause the stern to point into the wind. My theory is that the cutting action of the bow splitting the surface holds it in place, the stern blows downwind, and the bow ends up pointing into the wind.
When paddling in significant crosswinds in my Advantage I have the seat all the way back and shove the pack as far back as I can get it and still end up having to occasionally use big sweeps or C-strokes to keep my bow on point.

Banksiana: "An interesting note is that long straight-tracking hulls when subject to wind from the side tend to weathervane with the bow "trying" to come about and point into the wind. It's a little counter-intuitive as many of the faster hulls have significantly higher bows than stern and one would think that the greater "sail" area of the bow would cause the stern to point into the wind. My theory is that the cutting action of the bow splitting the surface holds it in place, the stern blows downwind, and the bow ends up pointing into the wind.
When paddling in significant crosswinds in my Advantage I have the seat all the way back and shove the pack as far back as I can get it and still end up having to occasionally use big sweeps or C-strokes to keep my bow on point."

You're exactly correct, Banksiana. Forward paddling locks the bow in place. The stern of the canoe sits in an eddy of disturbed water and is not as firmly anchored so it blows down wind. This makes it feel like the canoe is turning toward the wind. It's very common in sea kayaks and is known as "weather cocking".

If you stop paddling in these conditions, the canoe will often drift down wind parallel to the waves. It takes the forward paddling to lock the bow in place.

Deeper canoes catch more wind so the effect is exaggerated. Spray covers help a lot. Especially on a big lake like Basswood or Sag.

Sliding the seat all the way back and shifting a pack rearward is really the only thing to do to counteract weathercocking. That, and making sure any pack loaded in front of the footrest is very light. I run a single pack in the rear of a solo whenever possible for this reason.

Final note on sweeps. I've found that canoes like the Advantage and Encounter respond best to a stern draw rather than a sweep. The sweep has a forward component to it that accelerates the canoe before the final quarter of the stroke corrects direction at the stern. Since the faster you paddle, the more the canoe will tend to weathercock, this works against the paddler. It's better to finish a forward stroke, rotate your torso toward the stern and execute a sharp draw as far back as comfortably possible. This pulls the stern directly sideways toward the windward side, effectively counteracting it's tendency to drift down wind. If you haven't tried it yet, I think you'll find it is a very effective technique.

Brian

I'd look at the Bell Rob Roy. I've taken a ton of trips in that boat, as well as raced it in various local races. I've yet to come across a single blade solo that can come close to keeping up. I paddle it with a double blade.

Advantage was the first thing that came to my mind. Smooth efficient paddling will get the miles behind you pretty quickly

BrianDay: "
Final note on sweeps. I've found that canoes like the Advantage and Encounter respond best to a stern draw rather than a sweep. The sweep has a forward component to it that accelerates the canoe before the final quarter of the stroke corrects direction at the stern. Since the faster you paddle, the more the canoe will tend to weathercock, this works against the paddler. It's better to finish a forward stroke, rotate your torso toward the stern and execute a sharp draw as far back as comfortably possible. This pulls the stern directly sideways toward the windward side, effectively counteracting it's tendency to drift down wind. If you haven't tried it yet, I think you'll find it is a very effective technique.


Brian"

Noted and oft used when the wind isn't driving waves. In difficult waves the Advantage (like a bicycle I guess) seems more stable the faster I'm going- what is uncomfortable to dangerous when standing still becomes quite manageable when cruising.

I suffered a severely strained left shoulder paddling the Advantage from Cache Bay to the mouth of the Granite River on a day with big winds from the NW and uncomfortably large rollers. A full bore all out paddle using only the left side for the entire distance. Brutal.

For tripping purposes, I've found sliding gear to be as easy as a sliding seat. With my paddle I can push packs further toward the bow to deal with a headwind, and further toward the stern in a tailwind....

tomo: "For tripping purposes, I've found sliding gear to be as easy as a sliding seat. With my paddle I can push packs further toward the bow to deal with a headwind, and further toward the stern in a tailwind...."

The push forward or back is easy, bringing packs back toward center not so much- if it takes a paddle to push it retrieval on the fly will be fraught. Much easier just to shift your position.

Banksiana: "Noted and oft used when the wind isn't driving waves. In difficult waves the Advantage (like a bicycle I guess) seems more stable the faster I'm going- what is uncomfortable to dangerous when standing still becomes quite manageable when cruising.

I suffered a severely strained left shoulder paddling the Advantage from Cache Bay to the mouth of the Granite River on a day with big winds from the NW and uncomfortably large rollers. A full bore all out paddle using only the left side for the entire distance. Brutal."

Ouch!

I loved my Advantage during the Border Challenge last year. I only sit and have never tried kneeling in it. I have an adjustable sliding seat and foot bar. I weigh about the same as you, but am significantly shorter. I was impressed with its cruising speed and I agree with the comment above that says it encourages you to put more power in because it really responds. In windy conditions, I don't like how it handles with big following waves, but all else is fine. If the wind is 90 degrees to me, I always set a slight upwind angle and wind ferry no matter what canoe I am in. The only time on the challenge that I didn't like the Advantage was on the Pigeon River...it is just too long to do any sort of maneuvering in the current. Every time I saw an opportunity to ferry from eddy to eddy, the ends would run aground...guess my brain is used to a shorter boat in ww :)

I would love to paddle a Rapid Fire! Hey, Muddy Feet, if you are serious, let me know.

I’m going to go check out a used Bell Magic tomorrow

I've used an Advantage UL lay up on several BW trips on all types Lakes. Very happy with the results. I'm 5'10" 195 lbs, I travel light with a 14 lbs base weight pack . Sit and switch is my preferred paddling style.

Conchistador: "I’m going to go check out a used Bell Magic tomorrow "

I've owned 2 Magics over the years. Fine boat for sure. Versatile. Nice handling...predictable and turns responsively for a boat with not much rocker (turns better than specs would suggest). Excellent workout boat (because in my view it also goes plenty fast if you push it but it may take a little more muscle than an Advantage). Magic should be a very nice fit for a guy your size. Magic is comfortable and suitable for both sitting and kneeling (feels more natural for kneeling than an Advantage). Magic is also friendly in nasty conditions (wind and current) and definitely better for rivers than Advantage in my experience; this past Spring when my local river was high there was one eddyline I just would not try crossing in my Advantage.

Probably the best boat for the challenge is Muddyfeet’s Dragonfly. He passed me and within an hour was out of site. Muddyfeet’s Dragonfly

I agree Magic Paddler. Muddyfeet's own creation is styled after the Texas Water Safari canoes, LONG narrow bow and then a swell behind the seat to provide stability when the body's core muscles are fatigued. And of course, a rudder to eliminate the need for steering strokes or swapping sides constantly with a single blade, regardless of wind direction. I know a few years ago he mentioned selling it and building another, since he had a mold already built.

Voyager: "I agree Magic Paddler. Muddyfeet's own creation is styled after the Texas Water Safari canoes, LONG narrow bow and then a swell behind the seat to provide stability when the body's core muscles are fatigued. And of course, a rudder to eliminate the need for steering strokes or swapping sides constantly with a single blade, regardless of wind direction. I know a few years ago he mentioned selling it and building another, since he had a mold already built "

Swapping sides is equally about distributing the muscle load from one side of the body to the other. This pays off big time after many hours of paddling

I usually average about 10 strokes per side with a rudder on my Blackwater vs. 3 or 4 without a rudder. No problem, even with a 21 hour day in the MR 340 and in the Kruger Challenge last year.

Voyager: "I usually average about 10 strokes per side with a rudder on my Blackwater vs. 3 or 4 without a rudder. No problem, even with a 21 hour day in the MR 340 and in the Kruger Challenge last year."

I have a Blackwater without rudder (and due to some design changes to accommodate my dog a little bit of rocker) and usually manage 7 or 8 strokes side before a switch. My Advantage I usually get 5 or 6 strokes a side. I have never found switching sides to be burdensome. I prefer it.

Conchistador: "I’m going to go check out a used Bell Magic tomorrow "

Just curious, what did you think of the Magic?

SouthernKevlar: "

Conchistador: "I’m going to go check out a used Bell Magic tomorrow "

Just curious, what did you think of the Magic?"

I haven’t been on the water with it yet. Looking forward to that in the next couple days

Conchistidor,
BeaV paddles an Advantage with a rudder and I (Pigeon River Dave) paddle an Advantage without a rudder. I too like to kneel a lot and I can do that in my Advantage since I have a removable portage yoke. BeaV told me he cannot kneel b/c his swing up portage yoke is in the way. BeaV and I are both about 170 and 6' tall. You're a bit bigger but from what I've read you're still in the size bracket for an Advantage.
After seeing Russ's Blackwater, especially all rigged out at the Challenge last year I was pretty envious. As much as I love my Advantage, If I had the money, that is the boat I would buy.
I saw there is an Advantage on the for sale board here today with a Dan Cooke full cover. Looked nice.