Any comments on the practicality of the food storage rules, thus far this season? Pro or con.
On a may 22 trip on the Kawishiwi river my grandson and I had mixed results. We base camped and used both a Ursack and a roll top water proof pack; our pack hang was marginal at best but passed inspection from the two wardens who stopped by. They said they understood that many sites lacked perfect hanging trees. We pointed out a hanging attempt failure (not ours!) about 15 foot of rope with a pulley and an almost full roll of Gorilla tape was wrapped around a broken branch about 25 foot up a mature pine. Yes Gorilla tape. My grandson (170 pounds of rock climbing, swim team ,soccer player, all ripped up 20 year old) had a great time swinging back and forth until the branch broke and we recovered the tangled up " pack hanging" system which came out with us.
I can't say I found the food pack hanging more than a very minor inconvenience and was less of a hassle then I thought it would be (helped by a part mountain goat grandson)
This was not the first time I have seen hunks of cordage left in trees in the BWCA. tarp ropes and food hanging ropes, expect to see a lot more as time goes on.
On the original thread about the regulation I proposed the FS suspend a thin cable between suitable trees for ease of hanging packs in a bear proof manner, still thing it was not such a bad idea.
What are your thoughts?

merlyn: " On the original thread about the regulation I proposed the FS suspend a thin cable between suitable trees for ease of hanging packs in a bear proof manner, still thing it was not such a bad idea.
What are your thoughts?"

With 2200 designated campsites in the BWCAW, I really don't see how the Forest Service could possibly find the resources required to maintain a cable between two trees at every site for hanging packs. Nor do I want them to.

Sometimes there just aren't suitable spots to hang the food.

It really isn't that difficult to utilize an approved bear-proof container. Tie a Ursack to a tree. Done.

I do appreciate your removal of the old pulley system that somebody left behind. Thank you for that.

I spent $125 on an Ursack Major 2XL, plus another $40 for 4 Rubbermaid bins that fit inside the Ursack to meet the requirements for a forthcoming trip, and keep down food odors. Was able to pack about 95% of the food supplies I normally would.

So, for an additional investment of $165, I now have a compliant system, which I will likely store underneath an overturned canoe like I have done for the last 40+ years without any issues from wild bears or government types.

Total waste of money for experienced BWCA campers. After 40 years of tripping, if you have not figured out how to prevent bears from stealing your food, you should stop tripping to the BWCA.

Sorry to be blunt. Stupid people that don't follow common sense should have to deal with the consequences. Common sense is not necessarily put forth by the government .

Tom

Yup!!!

For me nothing has changed. I have always hung food and have continued to do so. Still appreciate an obvious bear tree but sometimes it take searching to find something that works. Usually a fun challange. I do go lean and light on the food which makes hanging much easier, rather spend time on the water than cooking and I like cooking but I can do that at home.

" On the original thread about the regulation I proposed the FS suspend a thin cable between suitable trees for ease of hanging packs in a bear proof manner, still thing it was not such a bad idea.
What are your thoughts?"

I think it's a good idea that would save wear and tear on the trees in the campsite and disturb the wilderness less in the long run. But then, I've only been doing this 20 years so what do I know.

rertel: "" On the original thread about the regulation I proposed the FS suspend a thin cable between suitable trees for ease of hanging packs in a bear proof manner, still thing it was not such a bad idea.
What are your thoughts?"

I think it's a good idea that would save wear and tear on the trees in the campsite and disturb the wilderness less in the long run. But then, I've only been doing this 20 years so what do I know."

While I see the point, I'm not convinced that bears stealing food packs is such a problem as to require the time and expense of stringing cables between trees. That's a lot of time and campsites and money to start with. Then monitoring the campsites and making repairs... a lot of money and I not sure it's worth it.

Also, I think we all are aware of what some people are capable of...and if a cable at any particular campsite survived one season, I'd be surprised. It would be torn down or overused or used to hang three packs or used to string a tarp or the cable would be repurposed by the same people who chop down live trees or try to burn all their trash in the fire pit.

Cynical viewpoint, to be sure.

Mike

Carrying over my question from another thread about what interactions there have been from those that have camped this season with F.S. officials in regads to the food storage order.

Thanks to Merlyn, the O.P. of this thread, for relating their group's experience. Any more stories?

merlyn: " Any comments on the practicality of the food storage rules, thus far this season? Pro or con.

our pack hang was marginal at best but passed inspection from the two wardens who stopped by. They said they understood that many sites lacked perfect hanging trees."

Not picking on ya, so I hope it doesn’t come off that way. This was my argument all along against the new regulations. Many sites just don’t have the proper trees to hang, especially with the recent fires. A lot of people aren’t going to know that until they get there and now they’re only option is to hang but not per the specs needed to actually deter a bear. The intent was good. In practice it is not practical.

There is not any evidence that using the blue barrels was less effective than hanging. Previously, anecdotal and actual data, points to hanging as the least effective method, although mostly due to error or circumstances. It can definitely be effective under the right circumstances. Not trying to argue that, but it takes time to learn, develop the skill, and you actually need trees in the area.

I am glad the FS didn’t fine you and understood the circumstances. That’s how it should be, just has my head shaking on how that was “better” for the bears?

I don’t think the cable idea will fly. Good idea, but too costly and not in budget for the FS, vandalism (more costs), and statistically speaking bears stealing food is a very small issue (not if your the one they steal from or if your the bear that needs to be put down :))—to justify the funding would be tough.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

T

timatkn: "

merlyn: " Any comments on the practicality of the food storage rules, thus far this season? Pro or con.


our pack hang was marginal at best but passed inspection from the two wardens who stopped by. They said they understood that many sites lacked perfect hanging trees."

Not picking on ya, so I hope it doesn’t come off that way. This was my argument all along against the new regulations. Many sites just don’t have the proper trees to hang, especially with the recent fires. A lot of people aren’t going to know that until they get there and now they’re only option is to hang but not per the specs needed to actually deter a bear. The intent was good. In practice it is not practical.


There is not any evidence that using the blue barrels was less effective than hanging. Previously, anecdotal and actual data, points to hanging as the least effective method, although mostly due to error or circumstances. It can definitely be effective under the right circumstances. Not trying to argue that, but it takes time to learn, develop the skill, and you actually need trees in the area.


I am glad the FS didn’t fine you and understood the circumstances. That’s how it should be, just has my head shaking on how that was “better” for the bears?


I don’t think the cable idea will fly. Good idea, but too costly and not in budget for the FS, vandalism (more costs), and statistically speaking bears stealing food is a very small issue (not if your the one they steal from or if your the bear that needs to be put down :))—to justify the funding would be tough.


Thanks for sharing your experience.


T
"

This^^^

My first trip to the BWCA (Moose to Ima) was in 1972 and after 20 trips I have yet to see a bear in the BWCA. Lots of Moose, but never a bear. Back then, we were advised by the outfitter to put the food pack(s) under the overturned aluminum canoe and stack the pots and pans on top. Then be prepared to have a discussion with the bear about the importance of not stealing peoples food.

For the past 20-30 years I've generally tried to comply with the rules by hanging the food pack / food box , but I don't think I've ever gotten one 12 feet off the ground. So . . . . not wanting to get crosswise with a Forest Ranger, I've now invested in Ursacks (we also have a Yosemite approved bear barrel from years past). So we're good. Not sure if they are really necessary, or how well they work, but at least I don't need to worry about being fined. I've never used the Blue Barrel, but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that they work just as well, or better than campers trying to hang food from a tree(s).

I kind of like the steel cable idea, but the lawyers would never allow it. Too much liability for the Forest Service should a camper be injured somehow.
I would think that if bears and food were a major problem in the BWCA, then the Forest Service would be installing steel food storage boxes at each campsite. I do not see a need to do that.

So in summary, the new mandatory rules don't allow much flexibility as to how a camper goes about keeping bears from getting at their food. Requiring campers to hang food in a tree versus using a Blue Barrel may very well result in bears getting at more food. Just my opinion.

MikeinMpls: "Also, I think we all are aware of what some people are capable of...and if a cable at any particular campsite survived one season, I'd be surprised. It would be torn down or overused or used to hang three packs or used to string a tarp or the cable would be repurposed by the same people who chop down live trees or try to burn all their trash in the fire pit.


Cynical viewpoint, to be sure.


Mike"

I served on a park commission years ago. One of the low points was finding out that some you-know-what attached a tow chain to a water faucet installed in a masonry wall and pulled it out with a vehicle. Nothing surprises me about the lengths vandals will go to compensate for their insecurities.

No changes for us. We have been using Ursacks with Smelly Proof bags inside for years already. Gave up hanging food now that so many areas have poor hanging trees. One of the last trips where we hung also resulted in a huge delay to remove one of our rope/pulleys that got horrible jammed 30+ feet up in a pine.

Thanks for removing the stuck rope and pulley. We did the same on Snipe Lake a few years back where someone had abandoned them.

straighthairedcurly: "No changes for us. We have been using Ursacks with Smelly Proof bags inside for years already. Gave up hanging food now that so many areas have poor hanging trees. One of the last trips where we hung also resulted in a huge delay to remove one of our rope/pulleys that got horrible jammed 30+ feet up in a pine.


Thanks for removing the stuck rope and pulley. We did the same on Snipe Lake a few years back where someone had abandoned them."

Thanks for removing the ropes SHC and all. It is my pet peeve as a volunteer ranger to leave a campsite we checked and still had ropes remaining in trees. Unfortunately we have to leave them somtimes and have no choice.

Our groups are going this September. AFter a group meeting, we all decided to get the Lifetime 55 bear certified coolers and work with those. With 4-5 men in each of the four groups, all food fresh and dehydrated should be able to fit into the coolers.

We are base campers so we think this will work for us as we have one short portage into Red Rock. And the coolers double as a work table to set the stoves or cooking gear on.

We never found he Ursacks to work for us. Before this year we all brought Bearvaults (BV500's) and were happy with those with the exception that you had to portage 6-7 of them per camp for the week.

Nothing has changed for me as I have always hung my food. Maybe that is one of the reasons I have never seen a bear in the BWCA

rertel: "" On the original thread about the regulation I proposed the FS suspend a thin cable between suitable trees for ease of hanging packs in a bear proof manner, still thing it was not such a bad idea.
What are your thoughts?"

I think it's a good idea that would save wear and tear on the trees in the campsite and disturb the wilderness less in the long run. But then, I've only been doing this 20 years so what do I know."

Have you watched how trees move in a strong wind? It might take a pretty strong cable to keep it from snapping as one tree moved south while the other the cable was attached to moved north.

Over the past 45 years we have had 2 bears come into our campsite that were seen. One required a stern "Get out" and the other i chased with a stick and that one came in as we were repacking our gear to move on after eating lunch. Hard to hang the pack when you are trying to put it in the canoe.

Last week my wife and I were checked by a ranger as we were out fishing. A pleasant encounter and we told them which campsite we were staying at. Our food packs were hung from the only available limb and could not have been 12 feet off the ground or 6 feet from the tree but there was no follow up on that. We tried the best we could with the resource available.

I've been on two trips this summer and have one more church trip ahead. I own a blue barrel and CCS pack for it. I like it very much.

25 trips in over the past 20 years and I've never seen a bear up there.

A good friend of mine has Ursacks now so I stuff all our food in that, then inside the barrel. I hope that makes me compliant.

In June my daughter and I made our first trip of the season with a BearVault so as to comply with the new regulation. Our practice in camp didn't change from what we've done in the past - clean camp, no food in tents, food items sealed in ziplock bags and in a container stored away from the camp.

We were checked by rangers. They were very nice and happy we were complying.

Hanging isn't the only correct answer, in fact it often can't be done as described in the regulations in many sites. Not a problem. Store your food items a distance from the camp.

I appreciated Cliff Jacobson's thoughts on the subject which he has shared many times over the years in his books and at speaking engagements. That's what we do.

Like most regulations it is an unnecessary pain in the butt. For those of us that know how to pack food and keep it safe without the gymnastics of ropes, we suffer needlessly for the few “bad apples” that bring their plastic Coleman coolers into the wilderness and think that’s good enough. Hanging packs does more damage to the trees near camp than saving the food of stupid people.

The last few years we’ve just hid the blue barrel / tied to a tree. This year we hung the barrel and the Ursack (the dog food takes up a lot of room). Did the best we could, but was probably not high enough. The trees would not move where we wanted them! And with the high winds I was worried about the barrel swinging a lot.

There have been comments on putting up a cable. Rather than stringing it between trees, what about putting in 2 tall posts with a cable/ metal rod between them? Yes, it would be quite an expense and man power, and I’m not too thrilled with the visual aspects. But no one could say they couldn’t find good trees. We were in Yellowstone several years ago, and spent the night in the back country. They had this kind of hanging pole at the site.

Just an observation- whenever the question “have you seen a ranger on your trip” comes up, there are few yes responses. But there have been a few people that have been checked just on this thread.

We are going back to a different EP in August, and plan on hanging the blue barrel and Ursack again. It’s what we have, so it’s what we’ll use.

Food and trash in a 30L Ursack Major XXL fastened to a tree. Clean kitchen utensils/supplies in the blue barrel stashed in the woods. Done and done. Hanging is not happening for me, especially when I need a 'Cascadian Farms Sweet and Salty Bar' at around 1am. The trees in my campsites breathe out an oxygen-laden sigh of relief when the see me a comin'.

Hanging is no match for the allure of the midnight munchies!

Just got back from 2 weeks out, first time with the new regs. I have a barrel and harness that I love, so I stuffed it full of ursacks. They take up space, so we also needed to bring my vault. Put the days food in the vault along with things we needed every day, like dish soap, toothpaste, etc.

It worked fine, although the ursacks are annoying in that they are in no way color coded so you had to open them to find out which one had dinner.....answer is the last one you open, LOL.

We got checked by the rangers and they didn't even mention our barrel, which was on ground in camp, clearly visible. So was the vault, so maybe they just assumed we were in compliance?

I used a BV500 and Ursack 2XL. Worked well, though I do wish the Ursack was white so it would be easier to see stuff. It's really nice to have the extra space and lightness of the Ursack for some items.

I'll mention yet again that if a bear actually did try to get into the Ursack I wouldn't like it near as much. Getting stuff crushed and slobbered on would not be fun. So the critical stuff goes in the BearVault. I view the Ursack as a convenient compliance item and wouldn't trust it alone to keep my food edible.

I enjoy the challenge of executing the perfect bear-bag hang. I have taken only one trip to the BWCA with this requirement but, I have always attempted hanging my food on all previous trips. Admittedly, some attempts are less than the ideal, but practice makes better.

Every BWCA campsite has a latrine and a fire grate. I hear very few to absolutely zero complaints regarding the inclusion of those features in the wilderness. If bears continue to be a problem requiring food to be hung then a forest service installed food hang at each campsite will be inevitable.

Zero problems. Smelly stuff in bear vault, dry, non-smelly stuff hung from trees, mostly to minimize damage from squirrels and mice.

dogwoodgirl: "Just got back from 2 weeks out, first time with the new regs. I have a barrel and harness that I love, so I stuffed it full of ursacks. They take up space, so we also needed to bring my vault. Put the days food in the vault along with things we needed every day, like dish soap, toothpaste, etc.


It worked fine, although the ursacks are annoying in that they are in no way color coded so you had to open them to find out which one had dinner.....answer is the last one you open, LOL.


We got checked by the rangers and they didn't even mention our barrel, which was on ground in camp, clearly visible. So was the vault, so maybe they just assumed we were in compliance?"

Since I use the Ursack securing method that requires a carabiner, I color code my Ursacks with different colored 'biners. Usually blue for breakfast, silver for lunch and red for dinner.

While I haven't tripped yet (leaving in a couple weeks). The bear barrels require that I make some different choices packing food. I have to be a little more efficient.

The biggest difference? - Has anyone seen a report of a nuisance bear encounter on this board from this summer? I know that because of the frequent rains that the forest is probably full of natural bear foods. But, by the end of July there are usually reports of nuisance bears up and down Knife Lake, Lake Polly, the Duncan/Daniels, or Alpine Lake. Here is one case where a lack of reports is a great thing!

Now that I have written it down, perhaps several will appear, but, I think it highly unlikely.

Michwall2: "While I haven't tripped yet (leaving in a couple weeks). The bear barrels require that I make some different choices packing food. I have to be a little more efficient.


The biggest difference? - Has anyone seen a report of a nuisance bear encounter on this board from this summer? I know that because of the frequent rains that the forest is probably full of natural bear foods. But, by the end of July there are usually reports of nuisance bears up and down Knife Lake, Lake Polly, the Duncan/Daniels, or Alpine Lake. Here is one case where a lack of reports is a great thing!


Now that I have written it down, perhaps several will appear, but, I think it highly unlikely."

I thought I saw a while back where somebody or somebodies were going to try to hunt the Rose/Duncan bear but don't know if they did or if there were any results. That one seemed to be getting pretty bold.

Michwall2: "

The biggest difference? - Has anyone seen a report of a nuisance bear encounter on this board from this summer? I know that because of the frequent rains that the forest is probably full of natural bear foods. But, by the end of July there are usually reports of nuisance bears up and down Knife Lake, Lake Polly, the Duncan/Daniels, or Alpine Lake. Here is one case where a lack of reports is a great thing!


"

Not a hint of bears anywhere on our trip last week to Alpine and Seagull, which were two problem lakes that prompted the "special" food storage order a couple of years ago. This was a really good thing as I found out after the fact that my newbie tent mate had brought his personal pack into the tent at night with a deodorant stick, scented Gulp worms, toothpaste, baby wipes and a few freeze-dried food packets. Everyone had been instructed pre-trip about NO food in the tent but he figured the freeze-dried food and Gulp worms were in never-opened sealed packets so therefore less of a threat. I suppose there is some truth to that but one still cannot be comfortable with ANY edibles in the tent--bear's noses are incredible! He said he "forgot" about the toiletry items.

We were cooking some really smelly foods over the fire: bacon, steaks, onions, etc. It smelled really good to me all over the campsite and my nose is not anywhere near as good as a bear's. If that wasn't going to draw them in, I can't imagine what would.

plmn:


I thought I saw a while back where somebody or somebodies were going to try to hunt the Rose/Duncan bear but don't know if they did or if there were any results. That one seemed to be getting pretty bold. "

Bear season opens 1 Sept in Minnesota. I love hunting, but the thought of hauling out a stinky bear in the summer heat is not an inviting one...

OCDave: "I enjoy the challenge of executing the perfect bear-bag hang. I have taken only one trip to the BWCA with this requirement but, I have always attempted hanging my food on all previous trips. Admittedly, some attempts are less than the ideal, but practice makes better.


Every BWCA campsite has a latrine and a fire grate. I hear very few to absolutely zero complaints regarding the inclusion of those features in the wilderness. If bears continue to be a problem requiring food to be hung then a forest service installed food hang at each campsite will be inevitable.


"

I wonder if somebody could design a retractable pole that could hold food packs that would be unobtrusive.

bottomtothetap: "

Michwall2: "


The biggest difference? - Has anyone seen a report of a nuisance bear encounter on this board from this summer? I know that because of the frequent rains that the forest is probably full of natural bear foods. But, by the end of July there are usually reports of nuisance bears up and down Knife Lake, Lake Polly, the Duncan/Daniels, or Alpine Lake. Here is one case where a lack of reports is a great thing!



"

Not a hint of bears anywhere on our trip last week to Alpine and Seagull, which were two problem lakes that prompted the "special" food storage order a couple of years ago. This was a really good thing as I found out after the fact that my newbie tent mate had brought his personal pack into the tent at night with a deodorant stick, scented Gulp worms, toothpaste, baby wipes and a few freeze-dried food packets. Everyone had been instructed pre-trip about NO food in the tent but he figured the freeze-dried food and Gulp worms were in never-opened sealed packets so therefore less of a threat. I suppose there is some truth to that but one still cannot be comfortable with ANY edibles in the tent--bear's noses are incredible! He said he "forgot" about the toiletry items.


We were cooking some really smelly foods over the fire: bacon, steaks, onions, etc. It smelled really good to me all over the campsite and my nose is not anywhere near as good as a bear's. If that wasn't going to draw them in, I can't imagine what would. "

All the bear talk this year had me thinking while I was out there last week. If bear noses are really that good wouldn't the smells from cooking permeate most everything around camp anyway? After cooking, fishing, etc should my dirty clothes all go in an Ursack? Surely they smell more than sealed food. After I use wipes or toothpaste aren't I going to smell more than the re-sealed packages? Seemed I was bringing a lot of "attractive" smells into the tent regardless of what I did.

So sure, not rewarding the bear with things in a tent is sound practice that protects the next camper. But is it actually any more likely for the bear to come into the tent because of some of those things? I have my doubts.

I have always hung I have had no bears get into my food.

But a camp raiding bear. can and well learn to climb trees and either. chew off the rope or just jump onto the pack pulling it down.

If a bear decides to enter your tent you are in grave danger no matter the reason.

The reason is only known to the bear. No matter how many people think they are doctor Do little.

Nobody can read a bear's mind.

I hated the regulations that they put out this year but it is what it is. I purchased the largest Ursack and the largest Bear Vault and should be set to go with that route. Sucks it was basically a forced purchase but ... new gear is always fun.

Maybe I missed it but did anyone get fined or even sternly talked to by rangers?

Just read of 2 bear attacks. An infant in a tent in Montana - predictably food, etc. "in and around" tent - and one in Smokey Mountains - a bear just charged two hikers. They fought it off with rocks and bear spray.

It sounds like the FS have been pretty laid back--the synopses I've read on encounters: people have not hung their pack to regs, some still using the blue barrels, some not checked at all, some thanked for following the rules when checked. I haven't heard of any fines. Doesn't mean they didn't happen but probably not with any frequency or else we would of heard I'd expect.

T

What about the part of not leaving your food unattended while portaging...anyone have thoughts on that?
The couple of solo trips I have taken in BWCA I double portaged and had a dedicated food bag while traveling from camp to camp. It would be unattended on one end of the portage or the other for the while I double portaged. I don't dilly-dally on portages and get on with it.
Seem to recall the new regs mentioned that food needed to be hung if unattended even for a short while on portages.
Seems this would cause some gridlock.
Be interested to hear anyones experiences or thoughts on this.
Shug

Shug…I’ve been on record on how I feel this rule was not well thought out by FS leadership, but for all practical purposes those enforcing rules so far this year seem to have been enforcing with common sense.

T

I just talked to Dan Shirley at Sawbill (I'm putting in there on 9/5) about this as I was planning on renting a rope and pulley system from them. He told me that I could put food in ursacks and put those ursacks in a barrel to carry and the FS is ok with that.

Since I have one time had a bear drag my 30L barrel out of camp, I'm surprised that the FS is ok with that. Kind of a shake my head situation there.

Gotta love the FS.

OneMatch: "I just talked to Dan Shirley at Sawbill (I'm putting in there on 9/5) about this as I was planning on renting a rope and pulley system from them. He told me that I could put food in ursacks and put those ursacks in a barrel to carry and the FS is ok with that.


Since I have one time had a bear drag my 30L barrel out of camp, I'm surprised that the FS is ok with that. Kind of a shake my head situation there.


Gotta love the FS."

I have the large bear vault and large ursack in my old no longer approved food pack :)

We’ve seen several trees damaged by people hoisting packs. This inclues broken branches and rub marks on trees used like pulleys.

Actually I thought pullys were illegal to use in the Wilderness. Are they not mechanical devices?

tmccann: "We’ve seen several trees damaged by people hoisting packs. This inclues broken branches and rub marks on trees used like pulleys.


Actually I thought pullys were illegal to use in the Wilderness. Are they not mechanical devices?"

Cam straps and fishing reels are also mechanized, but used a lot. I think the no mechanical applies to assistance in moving things, like portage wheels, sail boats, and out board motors.

I’m wondering how many people changed their food storage practice based on the new regs?

egknuti: "I’m wondering how many people changed their food storage practice based on the new regs? "

My assumption is most people have changed if they used the blue barrels or just hid. Mostly I am sure people keep hanging bear piñata’s and calling it good :)…I’ve seen several in posts on this site as evidence…

Time will tell if it makes any difference, but in my opinion until they crack down on the poor hangers or require everyone to use IGBC containers you will see no difference.

T

billconner: "

tmccann: "We’ve seen several trees damaged by people hoisting packs. This inclues broken branches and rub marks on trees used like pulleys.



Actually I thought pullys were illegal to use in the Wilderness. Are they not mechanical devices?"

Cam straps and fishing reels are also mechanized, but used a lot. I think the no mechanical applies to assistance in moving things, like portage wheels, sail boats, and out board motors."

Agree, I found this:
“ MOTORS NOT ALLOWED
With the exception of a few lakes, motors are not allowed in the Boundary Waters. This applies to all motorized equipment: boat motors, electric trolling motors, chainsaws, power augers, generators, pumps, snowmobiles, ATV's, remote control boats and planes, etc. You cannot have them in your possession, whether in use or not.
MECHANIZED TRAVEL NOT ALLOWED
In addition to the BWCA being motor-free, mechanized transportation is not allowed. This includes sail boats, sail boards, paddleboats, pontoon boats, bicycles, wheeled carts, and portage dollies. Mechanical assistance is only permitted over the following: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, and Prairie Portage.”

A pulley doesn’t seem to be included in any of the items banned. Plus it’s the only way you can really hang effectively to keep a bear out of your food.

T

We came out 2 weeks ago and I took three lengths of ropes and 2 pulleys.
The two pulleys make it nice for when there are no good branches to use but we didn't need the second one. We found suitable branches at all camps.

One rope with pulley attached tossed up and over the branch with enough free slack to raise and lower the pulley to be able to thread the second rope through it.

Once threaded through raise that pulley to the appropriate height and tie it off to a nearby tree.

At night we would move the barrel and the mostly empty portage pack to the second rope and tie it up and hoist away. Took about 2 minutes per night.

When we went out fishing and exploring we just took our barrel with us. A little extra ballast and lunch was always handy.

Other than the added weight of ropes and pullies I didn't find it to be as much of a pain as I thought it would be.

x2jmorris: "

OneMatch: "I just talked to Dan Shirley at Sawbill (I'm putting in there on 9/5) about this as I was planning on renting a rope and pulley system from them. He told me that I could put food in ursacks and put those ursacks in a barrel to carry and the FS is ok with that.



Since I have one time had a bear drag my 30L barrel out of camp, I'm surprised that the FS is ok with that. Kind of a shake my head situation there.



Gotta love the FS."

I have the large bear vault and large ursack in my old no longer approved food pack :)"

Hopefully you properly tie shut your Ursack when it is in there :)

Here's the FS take on it: "The U.S. Forest Service supervises the Superior National Forest and the BWCAW. An agency spokesperson told the Minnesota Star Tribune that visitors have reported fewer than 10 brushes with bears this season. The number is "significantly lower" than previous years, said Joy Liptak VanDrie. The last three seasons have averaged 42."
FS food storage effects

MReid: "Here's the FS take on it: "The U.S. Forest Service supervises the Superior National Forest and the BWCAW. An agency spokesperson told the Minnesota Star Tribune that visitors have reported fewer than 10 brushes with bears this season. The number is "significantly lower" than previous years, said Joy Liptak VanDrie. The last three seasons have averaged 42."
FS food storage effects "

I call BS on this…I think there has been at least 10 brushes with bears reported on this website and the FB account and we are just a small subset of the BWCAW travelers.

T

timatkn: "

MReid: "Here's the FS take on it: "The U.S. Forest Service supervises the Superior National Forest and the BWCAW. An agency spokesperson told the Minnesota Star Tribune that visitors have reported fewer than 10 brushes with bears this season. The number is "significantly lower" than previous years, said Joy Liptak VanDrie. The last three seasons have averaged 42."
FS food storage effects "

I call BS on this…I think there has been at least 10 brushes with bears reported on this website and the FB account and we are just a small subset of the BWCAW travelers.


T "

Even if the numbers are true, I don’t believe it has anything to do with the order. Anecdotally, it appears that most people didn’t change anything they currently do.

Agree egknuti, according to biologists bear encounters are related to food scarcity, population densities, hunting pressure, earlier emergence from dens, increased human activity (in our case more people going to the BWCAW)…of course every precaution should be taken to keep food protected but it’s annoying to see a FS make this statement…

How about we just had a year with record cancels and fails, reduced usage of the BWCA…maybe that caused alleged reduction in bear encounters…I say alleged because there is no way there was just 10 encounters with bears last year in the BWCAW…

T

I just don't see the problem with securing a blue barrel and maintaining camp hygiene. I'm pushing 20 trips in and have never had a bear encounter.

Problems with hanging:

- Many sites lack suitable trees and hanging a food pack well away from camp is stupid, inconvenient, and makes it harder to see/hear if a bear is attempting to get the pack.

- Hanging food packs is an eyesore and damages trees.

- There are a number of ways to get injured hanging a food pack.

- Bears can climb trees and the bear that can actually open a secured barrel is the rare exception. There's no reason to believe a barrel hung from a branch is safer than one secured to a tree trunk.

The blue barrels are watertight, float, durable, work far better for packing food than the other supposed bearproof options, and most of us already own them so we aren't excited to shell out for more gear that isn't more effective and impedes our packing routine. I follow the new rules, but I disagree that they help at all. At this point, I'm just hoping some company will make a grizzly-certified blue barrel (cuz we have so many grizzlies...) so I can spend a couple hundred on more gear to help solve a problem caused by sloppy campers.

I hate hanging blue barrels. If the bear were to chew through the rope, snap the branch, or otherwise cause the barrel to fall, I could see the barrel breaking open depending on how much weight is inside. They work great for sealing in smells, acting as a table, and holding all your food without crushing it though, and they're waterproof. No bear "proof" container can claim the same.

I'm not happy with the new rules and think the FS needs to actually put some thought into the matter instead of having a knee-jerk reaction. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some kid fresh out of collage with little to no experience with the outdoors came up with this. That or a politician.

We went away from blue barrels to BV500. The blue barrels are much heavier, you couldn’t see what was in them, and the larger ones took up a lot of space in the canoe. The breaking point was nobody wanted to portage the large blue barrels. They would much rather take a couple BV 500 each.

By contrast, the bearvaults are clear so you can see what’s in them, can also be used as seats or cooking services, and you can load four of them into a pack.

The Bear vaults are an inferior product to me for the BWCAW. It just goes to show different people have different experiences. Almost everything Oky says is a positive I have the opposite opinion. We are both probably right.

The BV barrels are bear beacons to me. I repackage and reseal all my food. I pretty much bring dried foods, but not freeze dried. Carrying a pack with BV I can smell the food. I’ve never been able to do that before. I have a sensitive nose, but a bear is way more. The first step in bear protection is to try to keep them out of camp by reducing smells to not have them in camp to begin with.

I’ve been in a lot of gully washer storms. Seems to follow me—-whatever week I choose…do a different week :) Never had an issue with water getting into food. I had 1/2my food ruined by a gulley washer in one of Bear vaults. We also had scouts capsize on another trip, the BV sat in water for a bit and ruined some food and once again wet food in a non airtight barrel stinks and becomes bear attractant…

Weight…I now need 5-6 Bear Vaults to carry my food for my group. That’s a little over 15 pounds of weight in BV. My 2 30L barrels were 8.5 #, almost doubled my weight.

I follow the rules, we have Ursacks and Bear vaults now. I’ve had them for years and slowly converted. I’m just saying there are pluses and minus…I am considering going back to the 30l barrels using an Ursack in them.

T

It depends on the group and how you use the BVs. I spread responsibility for carrying them out to one BV per paddler. They would much rather have one BV to carry then be the one carrying the large blue barrel. I can’t comment on this smell. All our items are in sealed packages before they go into the BV. I am also not sure how water from rain would get in one. we have been taking them for 16 years. Many times they have been in the rain but nothing has got wet. If they are sitting up, there is no possible way rain can get in the lids in that position. If there is that much concern about smell or water getting in, The simple solution is wrapping tape around the lids when underway

I believe in the " rule of law " and make an effort to understand and comply with regulations. I feel that willful non-compliance is disrespectful and destructive. I also believe that enforcement impacts compliance.

I recognized the difficulty and inefficiency of hanging so I chose bear resistant canisters for regulation compliance. The transition from hanging to canisters required compromise and innovation but overall has been very satisfying.

The bearproof container rule has not had a negative impact on me. I travel occasionally in grizzly country out west where they take the issue seriously, and just applied the same food packing strategies here in canoe country. The rule is a good idea, and like many regulations is a response to the irresponsible behavior of a minority of visitors.

Tomcat: "

timatkn: "


I’ve been in a lot of gully washer storms. Seems to follow me—-whatever week I choose…do a different week :) Never had an issue with water getting into food. I had 1/2my food ruined by a gulley washer in one of Bear vaults. We also had scouts capsize on another trip, the BV sat in water for a bit and ruined some food and once again wet food in a non airtight barrel stinks and becomes bear attractant…


"

My food is individually packaged and waterproofed so I don't require a waterproof canister but I could easily add a foam gasket to a Bear Vault lid if I wanted a water tight seal.


"

I appreciate the idea, I still might try it, but I did contact the makers of the Bear vault after my issues and was warned not to do this (nor adding a rubber gasket as others have advised). With temperature and barometric changes you could possibly create a vacuum effect and be unable to remove the lid. It also voids any warranty. They specifically stated that their bear vaults are not water nor airtight by design.

All my food is wrapped and packaged to be waterproof--whether in a barrel or not. It just that if you have ever had plastic sitting in water somehow it doesn't stay waterproof...whether it's condensation or just failure. You cannot "waterproof" your food nor smell proof with plastic bags alone. At least not on the trips I go on and have been on. It helps, but not an end all to be all. I don't do "normal" trips either. I might be the exception I recognize.

T

If you have that much concern on odor and water, just wrap the sides of the lids with tape.

I use a liner in my BV (or Ursack) - typically an OPsack or Smelly Proof bag - which are both waterproof and odor-reducing. Same principle as pack liners. No problems.

timatkn: "

Tomcat: "

timatkn: "



I’ve been in a lot of gully washer storms. Seems to follow me—-whatever week I choose…do a different week :) Never had an issue with water getting into food. I had 1/2my food ruined by a gulley washer in one of Bear vaults. We also had scouts capsize on another trip, the BV sat in water for a bit and ruined some food and once again wet food in a non airtight barrel stinks and becomes bear attractant…

"

I appreciate the idea, I still might try it, but I did contact the makers of the Bear vault after my issues and was warned not to do this (nor adding a rubber gasket as others have advised). With temperature and barometric changes you could possibly create a vacuum effect and be unable to remove the lid. It also voids any warranty. They specifically stated that their bear vaults are not water nor airtight by design.

All my food is wrapped and packaged to be waterproof--whether in a barrel or not. It just that if you have ever had plastic sitting in water somehow it doesn't stay waterproof...whether it's condensation or just failure. You cannot "waterproof" your food nor smell proof with plastic bags alone. At least not on the trips I go on and have been on. It helps, but not an end all to be all. I don't do "normal" trips either. I might be the exception I recognize.


T"

My preferred canister is the Counter Assault Bear Keg and my food is individually waterproofed so I don't require a waterproof canister. I was bored and made a foam gasket for my Bear Vault out of curiosity. I considered internal pressure variations and could have installed a flush mounted relief valve in the lid but I am doubtful that pressure change would be a significant issue. I have no intention of using a waterproof canister, I just enjoy equipment problem solving.

ockycamper: "We went away from blue barrels to BV500. The blue barrels are much heavier, you couldn’t see what was in them, and the larger ones took up a lot of space in the canoe. The breaking point was nobody wanted to portage the large blue barrels. They would much rather take a couple BV 500 each.


By contrast, the bearvaults are clear so you can see what’s in them, can also be used as seats or cooking services, and you can load four of them into a pack."

Ockycamper, I thought you were going to the Lifetime 55 cooler. Did you change your mind?

boonie: "I use a liner in my BV (or Ursack) - typically an OPsack or Smelly Proof bag - which are both waterproof and odor-reducing. Same principle as pack liners. No problems."

I am happy all of you have drier trips than me. I have those bags and they are not smell proof nor 100% waterproof. I can still smell food. When you have constant wet trips those bags still leak or else it is condensation. On the majority of trips you are fine though.

Look everyone…I’m not violating the rules, I follow them, I just see issues with the current products as well. It doesn’t matter it’s just an internet discussion. I do have a Devils Advocate issue :) when people post something is great or present it as perfect I can’t help but point out that there may be some issues…I recognize I am not the normal tripper either. We’ll put in at Snowbank at noon and be fishing Raven that day…my needs/wants and tripping style are different. My gear is subjected to different stress…

I do really appreciate the ideas on how to make my current systems work better.

T

I think I'll just continue hanging, as I have for 20+ years, imperfect as it may be. I suspect they won't throw me in jail, or even fine me, if with budget cuts I even see a ranger.

After another trip I really like my Ursack 2XL. It's light, relatively large, and with the carabiner method very easy to hang. But I realize that while it meets the regulation, it's not going to stop a bear from ruining what's in it. So I bring at least one BV500 as well and the less critical stuff goes in the Ursack. If either one is breached, I have plenty for a couple of days in the other. If I'm within a day or so of an exit the Ursack would be fine by itself.

I do wish there was a clear water/air tight option. Everything has drawbacks. If I only could do one, I'd stick with the Bearvault.

HangLoose: "

merlyn: " On the original thread about the regulation I proposed the FS suspend a thin cable between suitable trees for ease of hanging packs in a bear proof manner, still thing it was not such a bad idea.
What are your thoughts?"

With 2200 designated campsites in the BWCAW, I really don't see how the Forest Service could possibly find the resources required to maintain a cable between two trees at every site for hanging packs. Nor do I want them to.


Sometimes there just aren't suitable spots to hang the food.


It really isn't that difficult to utilize an approved bear-proof container. Tie a Ursack to a tree. Done.


I do appreciate your removal of the old pulley system that somebody left behind. Thank you for that.
"

+1

billconner: "I think I'll just continue hanging, as I have for 20+ years, imperfect as it may be. I suspect they won't throw me in jail, or even fine me, if with budget cuts I even see a ranger."

Hanging food is totally fine. No jail lol

While hanging does seem to be the answer for most people, we visit parts of the BW that weave in and out of several burn zones that have varying degrees of recovery. Hanging is not always possible. Hence, we have the need for bear resistant devices.

My main problem with those is space. I have been building my own menu for 20 years now. The type of foods that I plan are mostly dehydrated. Most are prepared in camp. Even these tend to take more space than you would think. Most of these have a protein (dehydrated ground beef or ground turkey OR packets of tuna and chicken) along with a carb (pasta, dehydrated potatoes, rice, lentils, etc.). These are my least space hungry meals.

Then there are those that are prepared at home and dehydrated for storage. e.g. I have a dehydrated breakfast casserole that most like. I also have breakfast cookies. I do a ramen spaghetti, but even those ramen packets take more space than I would like. I have another spaghetti recipe, but there is no way this one will work.

Lunches are the huge space hog. We do sausage and cheese with crackers the first 2 days. None of that is space friendly. The peanut butter has gotten better with the advent of squeezable peanut butter packs. But the jelly is not space friendly. The tortillas are probably the best items for space.

This year we did one 5 day trip with 5 people. I barely had enough space. The 5 day trip for 2 people was a lot easier. I am thinking of adding a 5th container, but the pack space and weight of just the containers is getting a little ridiculous.

May be we need a newer thread of space saving recipes?

We cook big breakfasts and dinners in our camps. We have also found that we need one BV500 per day to bring in the food, oil, condiments, etc for a group of 6 men. Roughly one BV 500 per guy for 5 days of breakfasts and dinners.

Its not a problem as we divide them up two BV500 containers to a canoe (one per guy to carry/portage). Everyone likes this a lot more then being the guy hauling through the large blue barrel.

Ockycamper, how did the coolers work this year?

T

Because of the new rules, as I posted, the four camp sites all brought Lifetime 55 quart bear certified coolers. (the site with the larger group of 7 brought two). We used them from Monday-Saturday. Those that put ice in the coolers still had ice the end of the week. I opted to freeze everything and stack the food with first out on top. Things stayed cold through Thursday.

The only thing we used the BV 500's for was buns/tortillas and condiments.

I decided again the ice cream. Went with New York cheesecake, apple pie and cherry pie. All with cool whip!

The concensus was that we will stick with the coolers as they allowed us to stay in compliance and bring steaks, burgers, brats, etc.

PS: This was with temps that got to upper 80's that week. Next year we are moving back to last week of September or first week of October. Will try ice cream then!

ice cream, steaks, burgers, brats...sounds like a nice trip. Eat better than I do at home! Glad it worked out.

T

The big hit was lunches. We fried fish, put them in burritos and had them with cheesecake, apple pie or cherry pie for desert!

ockycamper: "The big hit was lunches. We fried fish, put them in burritos and had them with cheesecake, apple pie or cherry pie for desert!"

OH My this is forcing me to rethink my trips :) Sounds wonderful!

T

Blue barrel with Ursacks worked for us this year. The Ursacks definitely take up space in the barrel but it wasn't a major problem and we now know more about how to pack using this approach. We have used BearVaults from time to time and I much prefer the blue barrel + Ursack setup for canoe tripping. I'm pretty sure we were using 3 Ursack Major XLs in a 60L barrel.

If I was going to bring my 30L barrel I don't think 2 fully-packed Major XLs would fit, so would probably start with one in the barrel and plan to hang another (wrapped in a pack liner) until we ate enough to free up space in the barrel. Much easier to find a good hang option for a small food bag than an entire barrel.

I think we spent about $100 each on the Ursacks, there was a "small business day" sale back in May and we got them direct from the manufacturer.

We have canoe tripped for years with blue barrels without any bear issues. Going to the Ursacks has added some expense and time investment to our trips but I'm not upset about it.

Michwall2: "

...Lunches are the huge space hog. We do sausage and cheese with crackers the first 2 days. None of that is space friendly. The peanut butter has gotten better with the advent of squeezable peanut butter packs. But the jelly is not space friendly.... "

Coughlan Squeeze Tubes can make jelly more space-friendly.

In June 2018 I was on a solo, stopped for the night on Loon Lake when this fellow stopped by to visit while I was there cooking my very fresh fish for dinner.



Although you can't see it, on the next tree to the right were two ursaks. This was day 2 and they were both filled with dehydrated vacuum sealed food. The bear brushed against the ursaks as it left, but ignored them.

three or four days later, I ran into a pair of conservation officers who had gone in and shot the bear because it had been successfully raiding hanging bags in campsites on Loon Lake. The officers had been double portaging into the south end of Loon. They took their food pack on the first run along with their canoes, and when they came back, the bear was there pulling their food pack out of the canoe.

IMHO, very few people can successfully hang a bag, either because they don't know how or due to the lack of good hanging trees.

p.s. don't know why, but when I posted, none of the pics in my journal were available. Sorry

Chicagored: "three or four days later, I ran into a pair of conservation officers who had gone in and shot the bear because it had been successfully raiding hanging bags in campsites on Loon Lake. The officers had been double portaging into the south end of Loon. They took their food pack on the first run along with their canoes, and when they came back, the bear was there pulling their food pack out of the canoe.
"

Never mind, I completely gapped the fact that you said that was in 2018.