US Forest Service cuts

Would be interesting to see what they have been spending money on. From what I can find their budget has slightly surpassed the rate of inflation over the past ten years.

Nice thing about the FS is everything is pretty public. Lots of information here.
USFS Budget information

I looked at just the last couple of years...the one item that really stands out is the increase is Wildland Fire Management. I suspect that this cost is limiting what can be spent in other areas. This is a snippet from the 2024 budget justification.

plmn: "Would be interesting to see what they have been spending money on. From what I can find their budget has slightly surpassed the rate of inflation over the past ten years. "

This is standard MO for any division of government. You can just assume most spending is flagrant and not being used where it counts.

The Fire fighting budget is huge now and this puts a drain on other projects.

Pinetree: "The Fire fighting budget is huge now and this puts a drain on other projects."

Yes, and among other things I saw they increased their workforce salaries and expenses by 55% in one year.

Seems they increased a lot of spending without securing the long term budget to do so ahead of time. Now they can't even maintain basic services. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that nobody will be held accountable.

plmn: Seems they increased a lot of spending without securing the long term budget to do so ahead of time. Now they can't even maintain basic services.
"

A lack of a new Farm Bill (which the Forest Service is a part of the Department of Ag) has put a huge hamper on any predictive budgeting ability. The current Farm Bill was passed in 2018 and has had a continuning resolution (kick the can) extensions since last year. It is fully expected to be CR this fall/winter after the election and possibly into next spring.

Trying to budget on guidelines from six years ago (and before a global pandemic) when the last farm bill was passed is a challenge and I suspect that is a big factor in this news of the Forest Service budget cuts.

My information is mostly anecdotal, coming from various news outlets, so feel free to take with a large grain of salt... But... the salaries that are paid to woodland firefighters are simply crazy. And not in a good/high way. The men and women who do that job, and frankly make peanuts for doing it... Just crazy.

I'm a Firefighter/EMT and on any given structure fire, I have a very good idea before I go into the building where the fire is, how far it's spread, what the risk is, ect. On a woodland fire... you may know some of it, but you have no idea at all where it's going and how fast. That's all based on weather and we know how hard that is to predict.

I'll run into a multi story apartment building without a second thought. Heading out to backstop a forest fire... scares the crap out of me. And I suspect those on this site who have done it would find my comments to be understating the issues. While the government wastes money at a astounding rate, that certainly isn't the worst of it. At least those men and women are putting it all out there!

I think the forest service has done an excellent job and Ely-BWCA USFS had close to 300 foresters around 1970. Now a fraction of this. So many more duties and expenses now.

Also, BWCA fees are so dirt cheap it is unreal. No reason they can't at least be 25% of what it costs to stay in a Minnesota State Park per night. Should be an overnight fee even if it is only $5.00 a night.

Seeing public agency budgets in broad categories tells you nothing. They can lump anything they want in those categories--and that's exactly what agencies do for political reasons.

"Wildfire Suppression"? That could include anything from personnel, to travel expenses, to fleet, to community outreach, to administration, to equipment, to sensitivity training consultants, to IT, to office rental...you name it. Any agency budget without numerous specific line items is as informative as a photo of a pile of money followed by a photo of no money. I'm not suggesting they spend their budget irresponsibly, but that they never go out of their way to provide enough detail to reassure anyone who thinks about it critically. Of course, there are political reasons for this, and they aren't all the fault of the agency or the administration running it--there are incentives all around to obfuscate.

ItascaBirder: "Seeing public agency budgets in broad categories tells you nothing. They can lump anything they want in those categories--and that's exactly what agencies do for political reasons.


"Wildfire Suppression"? That could include anything from personnel, to travel expenses, to fleet, to community outreach, to administration, to equipment, to sensitivity training consultants, to IT, to office rental...you name it. Any agency budget without numerous specific line items is as informative as a photo of a pile of money followed by a photo of no money. I'm not suggesting they spend their budget irresponsibly, but that they never go out of their way to provide enough detail to reassure anyone who thinks about it critically. Of course, there are political reasons for this, and they aren't all the fault of the agency or the administration running it--there are incentives all around to obfuscate."

Starting on page 151 to 167 of the FS Fiscal Year 2025 Budget Justification goes into more detail, highlighting and defininng items such as Wildfire Suppression, Suppression Operations, Salaries and Expenses, and Preparedness: https://www.fs.usda.gov/sites/default/files/fs-fy25-congressional-budget-justification.pdf

Pinetree: "

plmn: "

Pinetree: "The Fire fighting budget is huge now and this puts a drain on other projects."

Yes, and among other things I saw they increased their workforce salaries and expenses by 55% in one year.

Seems they increased a lot of spending without securing the long term budget to do so ahead of time. Now they can't even maintain basic services. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that nobody will be held accountable. "

Here is what you actually see: Salary increase "

Thank you, that confirms my suspicion. They gave out pay raises, the largest in 40 years, before having the budget to do so.

Moore, however, wrote that Congress didn’t provide the Forest Service with funding that accounts for the pay raise, aside from its wildland fire operations.

It also mentions their attrition rate is nearly half what it normally is, which tells me the amount of the raises probably wasn't needed to begin with. And they evidently used temporary funds from COVID-related legislation to add 4,000 non-fire positions with the supposed goal of improving core operations. Now we see they have accomplished the opposite.

No private sector business operates like this.

tumblehome: "

billconner: "Sorry I posted this."

Don’t be sorry Bill. It just went off the rails for a bit.


This might go alongside the thread about permit cancellations that went into the direction of permit costs.


I am on board with increased user fees. As we have discussed in the past, our wilderness camping experience is heavily subsidized by the people of the United States. Should we not consider raising the cost of our recreation to more closely reflect the actual cost to go to the BWCA?


$20 non-refundable permit reservation fee.
$100 up front overnight camping fees that is refundable in a pro-rated fashion if cancelled up to the permit date.


Still a subsidized trip but it’s a start.
Tom
"

I'm not necessarily opposed to increasing fees to account for inflation. But an over 6x increase seems excessive. And if it is called a reservation fee, it should cover the cost of the reservation system and that's it.

For the record, there is currently a $32 penalty if you don't cancel within two days of entry.

"As of Oct 15, 2024, the average annual pay for a Hotshot Firefighter in the United States is $48,932 a year." Source: Zip Recruiter.

The joke is that wildland firefighters are paid in sunsets.

$16.38

How much does a Wildland Firefighter make at United States Forest Service in the United States? Average United States Forest Service Wildland Firefighter hourly pay in the United States is approximately $16.38, which is 27% below the national average.

'Too Steep and Too Rough' by Murry Taylor covers a major problem in Wildland Fire. The Wildland Fire Complex is making a lot of money for certain fire corporations and is not about to change.
.

AlexanderSupertramp: "

plmn: "Would be interesting to see what they have been spending money on. From what I can find their budget has slightly surpassed the rate of inflation over the past ten years. "

This is standard MO for any division of government. You can just assume most spending is flagrant and not being used where it counts."

Oh you see that in private business too. Insurance companies waste a TON of money on perks like conferences, luxurious meetings, heath spas, etc,etc.

Pinetree: "$16.38


How much does a Wildland Firefighter make at United States Forest Service in the United States? Average United States Forest Service Wildland Firefighter hourly pay in the United States is approximately $16.38, which is 27% below the national average."

The previous story implies the firefighter budget increase was accounted for in their approved budget and they got a 50% raise. As I pointed out, they spent a lot of money on other employees that was not part of the budget.

arctic: "

AlexanderSupertramp: "

plmn: "Would be interesting to see what they have been spending money on. From what I can find their budget has slightly surpassed the rate of inflation over the past ten years. "

This is standard MO for any division of government. You can just assume most spending is flagrant and not being used where it counts."

Oh you see that in private business too. Insurance companies waste a TON of money on perks like conferences, luxurious meetings, heath spas, etc,etc."

The difference is those "waste" expenses were already approved budget items whose funding was accounted for before the money was spent.

I think they should audit themselves and let us know if they’ve done anything illegal or unethical or stupid.

Pinetree: "$16.38


How much does a Wildland Firefighter make at United States Forest Service in the United States? Average United States Forest Service Wildland Firefighter hourly pay in the United States is approximately $16.38, which is 27% below the national average."

Which is part of the reason why they have trouble filling positions and keeping experienced personnel. Add in the physical demands - and risk, extended time away from family, long term health risks from smoke. They definitely don't get paid enough, even if you add in the sunsets.

JackpineJim: "I think they should audit themselves and let us know if they’ve done anything illegal or unethical or stupid."

This is sarcasm, correct?

Chieflonewatie: "

JackpineJim: "I think they should audit themselves and let us know if they’ve done anything illegal or unethical or stupid."

This is sarcasm, correct?"

Sure it is.

Simple log the lumber and make money or spend money fighting mother nature and fires. I can tell you who would win.

An audit would have to come from the outside and the person(s) would have to be very wealthy. The government will go after anyone that questions it, history proves this. Chief if you are Native, you know this.

The forest service is in with the department of agriculture, the same ones not controlling the wolves.

A person from the private sector with average intelligence could turn the FS in to a multimillion-dollar business. We have seen this with concessioners at national parks.

US Forest Service (USFS) has made money in the past, but it has also lost money in recent years:

1952
Newsweek called the Forest Service one of the government's most businesslike investments and the only major branch to show a cash profit.

1906
The Forest Service's first year of receipts were much higher than expected, which led to a dispute in the House of Representatives over how to control the agency's budget.

Lost money on timber
Independent studies have shown that the Forest Service's timber program has lost hundreds of millions of dollars annually. The Forest Service sells most of its timber to the highest bidder in competitive auctions, but it can lose money if it falls short of its timber sale targets

4keys: "

Pinetree: "$16.38

How much does a Wildland Firefighter make at United States Forest Service in the United States? Average United States Forest Service Wildland Firefighter hourly pay in the United States is approximately $16.38, which is 27% below the national average."

Which is part of the reason why they have trouble filling positions and keeping experienced personnel. Add in the physical demands - and risk, extended time away from family, long term health risks from smoke. They definitely don't get paid enough, even if you add in the sunsets."

I retired after 30 years as a wildland fire fighter for the Feds. I started as a GS-3 and retired as a GS-09. The pay and sunsets were not nearly enough. My lungs are trashed and I have PTSD, both medically diagnosed. Sunsets were awesome but not enough.

Here are the GS pay rates for fed employees.

LindenTree: "I retired after 30 years as a wildland fire fighter for the Feds.
I started as a GS-3 and retired as a GS-09 the pay and sunsets were not nearly enough. My lungs are trashed and I have PTSD, both medically diagnosed. Sunsets were awesome but not enough.

Here are the GS pay rates for fed employees. "

Well said Linden

Thanks for sharing your experience, but that doesn't justify spending money they didn't have. And, as mentioned a couple of times now, the finalized budget did cover a large increase in firefighter wages.

I'm not against people getting paid fair wages. I'm against government agencies increasing spending without the budget to do so and then failing to provide basic services because of it. Now they will say "see, we can't even provide basic services, we need more money". And I'm sure they will eventually get it and nobody will be held accountable. The system is broken.

plmn: "Thanks for sharing your experience, but that doesn't justify spending money they didn't have. And, as mentioned a couple of times now, the finalized budget did cover a large increase in firefighter wages.


I'm not against people getting paid fair wages. I'm against government agencies increasing spending without the budget to do so and then failing to provide basic services because of it. Now they will say "see, we can't even provide basic services, we need more money". And I'm sure they will eventually get it and nobody will be held accountable. The system is broken. "

I was involved in a little bit of hiring in my years, mostly all with the Dept of the Interior, US Fish and wildlife Service. We were always counseled to be very cautious with hiring full time employees when our budgets were fat because the money will most likely not stay fat for incoming years, then we may be dealing with a RIF/Reduction in Force. There were a few times in the fire budgets that we were told that a certain segment of our fire budgets would never be reduced, this held true for about 4-5 years but what do you know. Those programs budgets were sure enough downsized, I am referring to WUI, Wildland Urban Interface budgets within the fire program.

“I'm not against people getting paid fair wages. I'm against government agencies increasing spending without the budget to do so and then failing to provide basic services because of it. Now they will say "see, we can't even provide basic services, we need more money". And I'm sure they will eventually get it and nobody will be held accountable. The system is broken. "

I don’t think that is how gov’t agencies work in terms of their budget. I worked for many years with an agency of Wisconsin state gov’t. In beginning for planning for the next biennial budget, states agencies were told to develop a budget based on what they could foresee as needed to provide services in the coming 2 year budget cycle. These proposals went to the department of which my agency was a part, and were hashed out with the governor’s office where the overall state budget was actually developed. The governor would forward his proposed state budget for the next biennium to the legislature’s bipartisan budget committee which reworked the budget, sometimes even discarding the governor’s entire budget proposal and writing their own budget. The legislature (Assembly and State Senate) would have to finalize an overall state budget, pass it and forward it to the governor for signature before it became law. It is a lengthy and time consuming process. In my over 20 years with the state, we almost never had a state budget passed and signed into law in time for the new fiscal year - we had to operate based on the previous state budget. I suspect the federal budget development process is similar and probably much more involved.

The bottom line is gov’t agencies can only spent money within their approved budget since they only have access to appropriated funds in that budget. If they want additional funds they would need to request them from the legislative branch who is responsible for granting them or not.

Correct deerfoot, the feds/USFS cannot spend money that has not been appropriated by congress that money has to already be within their budgets.

The bottom line is gov’t agencies can only spent money within their approved budget since they only have access to appropriated funds in that budget. If they want additional funds they would need to request them from the legislative branch who is responsible for granting them or not.

From the Hotshot Wake up.

In A Massive Turnaround, The Forest Service Says They Have Reduced The $750M Salary Budget Gap To $50M.

The Hotshot Wake Up
Oct 23, 2024
It’s pretty clear by now that a fully funded budget is not likely before the new year. It’s not impossible, but most don’t expect it to happen. I reported on the $750M budget gap months ago, and it sounds like the Forest Service has drastically closed that gap through tough decisions and creative money management.

Reducing a budget gap of this size by $700M is no easy task, and the Forest Service did it relatively quickly. However, this did not come without tough decisions. In communications with Forest Leadership last week, the FS said, "The Forest Service has made tremendous progress regarding the budget for FY25 and has reduced the $750M salary budget gap down to $50M.”

They continue saying that this was accomplished through personnel actions and permanent employee actions and was greatly assisted with trust funds and contract adjustments.

As we already know, no non-Fire seasonal hires will happen in fiscal year 2025, likely freeing up a tremendous amount of money. There have also been discussions about providing buy-out opportunities for “close to retirement” employees. I don’t know what this would look like, but multiple employees have come forward saying they have received “hypothetical” offers.

It's not a huge surprise to hear they utilized trust funds, and contract adjustments were likely coming down the pipe anyway. I think this just really forced their hand.

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Add that all up, and they filled a $700M hole in about two months with $50M remaining. Of course, this does not mean the bleeding has ceased, but it seems like the Forest Service looked at their budget issues like a trauma surgeon and lopped off the infected leg to try and save the rest of the body.

I’m sure more difficult decisions still need to be made, but quite frankly, this is a massive move forward in terms of closing the enormous budget gap. Clearly, sacrifices were made. Cutting your entire non-fire seasonal staff in 2025 is a huge sacrifice with measurable downstream effects for many people and organizations. But as I’ve said before, they couldn’t just do nothing. It’s a mess.

The question now is, what does the path forward look like? If a full budget does get passed, it’s already been made clear by the Chief’s office that it’ll likely be significantly less than what they need. Hell, they might shut the Government down in December if a budget deal can’t be reached. But they are well-versed in that scenario by now.

Forest Service leadership seems to be trying to get ahead of all these situations by making tough decisions now. Currently, wildfire funds and salaries seem secure, but this did come at a cost—one that will surely be felt by others who filled those seasonal positions.

I’m sure these decisions were not easy, but by the looks of it, they were necessary to keep the Agency afloat.

Link from the above article.

deerfoot: "The bottom line is gov’t agencies can only spent money within their approved budget since they only have access to appropriated funds in that budget. If they want additional funds they would need to request them from the legislative branch who is responsible for granting them or not. "

That isn't what they did though, evidently. It states they increased spending and when the money wasn't appropriated, they cut elsewhere.

Thank you to those members who are refraining from pushing your partisan politics in this thread.

adam: "Thank you to those members who are refraining from pushing your partisan politics in this thread. "

Ditto!

It sounds like the cuts will limit enforcement and maintenance of portages and campsites, which is too bad. Enforcement has long been a big problem. Maybe they need to increase the fines for various penalties to help pay for enforcement. They also need to publicize it more when they do prosecute an egregious violation such as the recent Sag fire which by accounts was caused by people without a permit. What were the consequences of that action?

With very reduced staffing in the field as well as the office, gaining control of the workload through closure is a realistic approach. Road closure, recreation facility closure, entry point closure, administrative office closure.

Perhaps the wilderness and other features in the landscape could take a well deserved rest from our constant trammeling and have some time to restore themselves.

Cutting seasonal hires has got to be one of the easiest things to do politically, but a terrible move in terms of "bang for buck" - the productivity to cost ratio for seasonal staff is incredibly high. I guess it's possible that "doing less work" is just part of the big picture goal.

Smoke's comment about the "Wildland Fire Complex" is spot on.

thistlekicker: "Cutting seasonal hires has got to be one of the easiest things to do politically, but a terrible move in terms of "bang for buck" - the productivity to cost ratio for seasonal staff is incredibly high. "

So true.

It is interesting to see the opinions on this. The idea of turning the forest service into a multimillion dollar business is in direct conflict with the point of the mission of the forest service. Not really a fan of letting the stockholders give the thumbs up or thumbs down on whether we put out a forest fire.

afromaniac: "It is interesting to see the opinions on this. The idea of turning the forest service into a multimillion dollar business is in direct conflict with the point of the mission of the forest service. Not really a fan of letting the stockholders give the thumbs up or thumbs down on whether we put out a forest fire. "

+1

A more corporate mentality or approach to managing forest service lands would be a complete unmitigated disaster for anyone that loves public lands and wild spaces.

Cricket67: "

adam: "Thank you to those members who are refraining from pushing your partisan politics in this thread. "

Ditto!"

Ditto x2