I’m sure this has been discussed before; but I’m seeing mostly canoe messages. I’m looking for a paddle that will help me get to Knife faster from VCO. I will be in a Kevlar canoe. Every little bit helps with each paddle stroke. I plan to bring a second paddle for when I arrive at Knife for navigating more harsh waters (rocks, banks, etc). Thanks in advance for your expertise.

What do the FKT canoe people use?

If you want fast, go for a double-blade (i.e. kayak style). I regularly use one in my solo, but have seen people use them in tandems as well. In my 16' solo, I can hit 6 knots if I hoof it, and it's a game changer when fighting a stiff headwind.

Note that a double-blade for a canoe will typically be much longer than one for a kayak due to the fact that they're wider and you're sitting up much higher. Mine is 270cm -- a Werner marketed for fishing kayaks.

Good advice on the double. What are the thoughts on blade style?

I’ll be riding tandem with a buddy, if that makes a difference for recommendations.

There has been some discussion here in recent months about kayak paddles for canoeing. See, for instance ...
Double-blade paddle recommendations
Kayak paddles with offset grips

For single blade paddles, you will want to look at bent-shaft paddles with offsets of 10-12 degrees. For the lightest weight, look at carbon fiber blades. The racing folks seem to prefer those from Zaveral Racing Equipment (ZRE). A less expensive alternative would be a Wenonah Black Light (mine is 52 inches long and weighs 13 ounces). Several others make them, but ZRE is probably the lightest (and most expensive).

To get maximum speed in a tandem with 2 paddlers, you'll have to adopt the racers' techniques: a shorter stroke than you might normally do, increased cadence, both paddlers switching sides simultaneously, etc

I do appreciate the information and for those of you reading this and thinking, “great, another noob asking the question about paddles again..” I appreciate your tolerance. For reference, I am 6’ and weigh 180# while rarely losing a bet when it comes to a task of physical demand. There was one time when I had to wear my wife’s underwear for a day, but that contest was rigged…

Reading the previous articles about using a double paddle, looks like the Aquabound Stingray and the Werner Kalliste are the favored options.

Black Lite Elbow in Carbon, or something similar, would be the single paddle recommendation.

Is it stupid to want to bring a double and a single paddle?

Think about what you're padding, my Jenson 206 is substantially faster than my prisim no matter what I paddle with. And yes the 206 has been to the BW. As Ausable points out technique will make quite a difference, and I will add, weights nothing on the portage.

Northstar Magic here

ZRE PowerSurge Expedition 52" as my single blade

Aqua Bound Tango Carbon as my double blade. 260CM

Not at all stupid to bring a single and a double. I always do on my solos.

billconner: "Not at all stupid to bring a single and a double. I always do on my solos."

+1.

My feeling is that the biggest difference-maker for a single blade is the light weight. Lifting a 2 pound paddle 10,000 times makes one more fatigued than lifting an 8oz paddle the same number of times.

Blade shape and angle are important too, but for me I really notice the weight. In fact, my super-light carbon fiber paddles are so buoyant that they pop back up out of the water at the end of every stroke. Lovely feeling…. Like wearing ladies underwear.

ZREs are magically fast with the sit and switch style. I use a Wenonah Advantage with it. The ZRE will get you through all the BW stuff btw

I like it here. You all get me. ??

Technique. ?
Light paddle. ?
Bring a single, and a double. ?
Wearing women’s undergarments assist with wanting to get through the next section faster, if only to be able to change out of them at the portage. ??

I’ve considered looking into used paddles online but am hesitant. Lack of inspection, micro-fissures, knock-offs, etc. Is there a respectable business or person on here who peddles these items?

I’m a yearly BW trip guy (May), considering a 2x/year if I can get the wife (and her panties) away from work in August. So, investment vs yearly storage and whatnot. Is there a places I could rent these items?
But, would the rentals be junk? Sorry, thinking via text…

Depending where you're located, canoecopia is coming up in Madison, WI the weekend of the 7th through the 9th of March. Great place to buy a paddle from reputable manufacturers at a discount. Huge selection of manufactures as well.

Some outfitters have carbon fiber paddles to rent. Check the outfitters who are sponsors of this site.

For what it's worth, I bought a used Wenonah bent shaft carbon paddle from Piragis Outfitters at the end of the paddling season when they sell their rental stuff. The paddle had scratches, of course, but otherwise it was in great shape.

Basketcase: "What do the FKT canoe people use?"

Maybe I should know this, but what are FKT canoe people?

Definitely go with a single and double blade. While (in my solo) I love the power of the double, it really isn't the best in tight quarters where it can snag on overhanging branches. It does get the most use, but you'll want to carry a spare anyway for safety reasons, and it makes sense to have it be a single blade so that you can choose as conditions warrant.

The double I bought was intended to be cheap (used for $90) and allow me dip my toes into the water of double-blade use. The adjustable length is nice, though I find myself usually using the 270 length. I wonder about the durability of the exterior clamp mechanism, but it's been fine for me now after a few years of use. I'd probably prefer a full carbon blade, but this seems to work fine. Here's what I've got: https://wernerpaddles.com/collections/fishing/products/skagit-hooked-adjustable-straight-shaft-closeout

It's hard to quantify, but I really prefer the aesthetics of the single blade. Just seems more pleasant to use. If I want a relaxing paddle around the lake in the evening, that's what I use. Because you've always got a blade up in the air, doubles tend to drip a lot of water up into the boat, particularly if it's windy.

Something also worth noting is that you can really wear yourself out trying to go fast. I can't cite any studies or real numbers, but my gut feeling is that doubling your expended effort might result in about a 25% increase in speed. Any shoulder or back injuries will flare up much more when you're pushing it.

Another consideration is that your boat will likely affect speed as much if not more than the paddle. Generally speaking, a longer waterline and narrower beam make for a faster boat, but increases in length and decreases in beam will also reduce stability, which could be a real liability in rough weather.

While the most popular boats are rarely the fastest, they're usually the best combination of speed/capacity/stability/durability. Whenever you focus on improving a single aspect of a canoe, the others tend to suffer.

if the speed at which you get to Knife is your only consideration you get a tow, If you want to enjoy the trip and the scenery then you paddle. Technique is probably more important than the particular paddle. Until we reached out 70's there didn't seem to be any canoe/paddle combination that could match us for speed.

Lots to follow up on:

Canoecopia in WI sounds like a great opportunity, especially to learn and feel some of the different stuff out there. I’m in South Dakota, so probably won’t make that though.

FKT = fastest known time
For the people who want to make a run and have the time record. I was just curious if they are using anything specifically for these trials.

I called Piragis outfitters and they have the Black Lite Carbon Elbow and the Black Pearl 11 used outfitter additions for $170 plus $30 shipping. They don’t have doubles.

I’ll be getting and bringing a single and double on my trip.

I already have a tow lined up from VCO to past American Point.

I’ll be tandem in a Wenonah Kevlar Basswood from the outfitter.

And, that’s not the first +1 I am reading about technique. So, will be brushing up on the ole sit-and-spin, I mean, sit-and-switch for sure!

Still waiting to hear back on military discount from AquaBound…

I think you should practice with the double bladed paddle before you commit to using it on a trip. A double bladed paddle may be faster for someone who has been using one for a while, but not necessarily for a first time double bladed user.

I have a Bending Branches Black Pearl with an 11-degree offset. Superlight. Expensive though.

Mike

Only used the crappy plastic/aluminum single paddle from the outfitter on my previous (and, first) BWCA trip. I plan to upgrade to the carbon elbow for this trip, AND, try a double. So, if the double ends up pushing me backward or something crazy, I’ll still have the single to bail me out. No better time to try something new than a 7-day trip in a remote location, eh??

30% discount at AquaBound for military, btw. Blew my mind.

Basketcase: "Lots to follow up on:


Canoecopia in WI sounds like a great opportunity, especially to learn and feel some of the different stuff out there. I’m in South Dakota, so probably won’t make that though.


FKT = fastest known time
For the people who want to make a run and have the time record. I was just curious if they are using anything specifically for these trials.


I called Piragis outfitters and they have the Black Lite Carbon Elbow and the Black Pearl 11 used outfitter additions for $170 plus $30 shipping. They don’t have doubles.


I’ll be getting and bringing a single and double on my trip.


I already have a tow lined up from VCO to past American Point.


I’ll be tandem in a Wenonah Kevlar Basswood from the outfitter.


And, that’s not the first +1 I am reading about technique. So, will be brushing up on the ole sit-and-spin, I mean, sit-and-switch for sure!


Still waiting to hear back on military discount from AquaBound…"

Rather than renting the Wenonah bathtub get a Minnesota
Two, and remember every time you drag a paddle to correct steering it's the same as breaking

Ahahn366: "Rather than renting the Wenonah bathtub get a Minnesota
Two"

FKT or not, if you are concerned about speed, this is a much bigger component than the paddle.

That said, you want a ZRE or a GRB carbon fiber bent shaft. I have both, and they are awesomexcellent gear.

Another ZRE vote for myself and my spouse. I make wood paddles for fun and held out on a carbon for a long time, but there's no comparison. I still bring a homemade long shaft straight paddle as our backup and to keep the CCS lean up in the middle.

Have I ever mentioned I love forums?

The wealth of knowledge here is fantastic.

Ok, ordered a carbon double from AquaBound. The outfitter has Black Lite Carbon elbows, so I will try that this time around and upgrade to the ZRE for my next trip. Baby steps, yeah?

I will also be changing the ‘target’ to a Minnesota II instead of the bathtub, read basswood. ??

I appreciate all the knowledge here and believe you all have answered my questions, including a lot of questions I didn’t know existed.

Lot’s of good advice…I’ll chime in too.

To get to Knife the fastest. #1 take a tow. I don’t consider any of the motorized lakes the BWCAW and want through them ASAP…it’s like saying the Fernberg Road is in the BWCAW…no…it’s just a way to Get to the BWCAW. You already have it lined up, just reinforcing the choice.

A Carbon bent shaft using the switch or Hut method (don’t know about the double blade—could be faster) as light as possible is going to get you there the fastest. The ZRE is a great choice.

Don’t know what your canoe type is? But that might matter more than the blade you use. Narrower, longer canoe should be faster.

Let us know your FKT when it’s over.

T

Basketcase: "Have I ever mentioned I love forums?


The wealth of knowledge here is fantastic.


Ok, ordered a carbon double from AquaBound. The outfitter has Black Lite Carbon elbows, so I will try that this time around and upgrade to the ZRE for my next trip. Baby steps, yeah?


I will also be changing the ‘target’ to a Minnesota II instead of the bathtub, read basswood. ??


I appreciate all the knowledge here and believe you all have answered my questions, including a lot of questions I didn’t know existed. "

Black lite carbon is a club compared to a ZRE weight wise.

I believe we will be switching to the MN 2 from the basswood, based on previous recommendations. That should help as it seems it is a much sleeker canoe.

Weight difference from ZRE to Black Lite/Black Pearl is ~7oz compared to ~18oz. The aluminum paddle I used last year weighed in at ~30oz.

The AquaBound Stingray carbon double I will be bringing checks in at ~28oz.

I’ll try the outfitter edition of the Black Lite this year and upgrade to the ZRE next year since I’m focusing on a set money limit for gear upgrades in other areas for this trip.

All the advice I’ve gotten on this thread will make a significant impact on our route time. For clarity, we are not going for a FKT, but, we don’t intend to be taking it easy getting to knife. I’ll send my route and time in this forum when we get back in early June.

Thanks again for all the help and advice here. You are all truly great assets to improving the experience in BWCAW.

I recommend that you check with GRB Newman Designs and see if they have any blems. My last GRB was only $175 shipped and it's a pretty big upgrade (smoother and quieter as well as lighter) over the bent you are considering. You don't need anything sturdier for rocky areas.

A little physical conditioning could also be very helpful vs just taking on a long/hard paddle with no prep.

Noted! I have an email in to GRB and anxiously await the reply. Just going off their website, new paddles are in the $200s range, about half of ZRE. I'll ask about military and blem discounts and report back.

I appreciate you opening the door regarding conditioning. I have that covered.

billconner: "Not at all stupid to bring a single and a double. I always do on my solos."

+1!

2 emails sent to GRB… crickets…

I took a look at the GRB website…looks like a mom and pop shop. Could be wrong. They could simply be on vacation. I’ve found places like this are slow to respond.

If that bothers ya (okay if it does) might not be the best operation to purchase from. But I’d just give them more time if it was me.

T

I like my GRB but it's a backup to my ZRE.

I ordered the GRB last year and I think Gene got sick - it did take 3 months to get the paddle.

The cost of your equipment matters not if you are out of shape. Spend 200 hours paddling between now and your trip and you'd be faster in a sportspal with a plastic Caviness than if you were in a proper C2 with a Zav following 0 hours of training. This reminds me of the controversy over high-tech swimsuits for middle schoolers.

Z4K: "The cost of your equipment matters not if you are out of shape. Spend 200 hours paddling between now and your trip and you'd be faster in a sportspal with a plastic Caviness than if you were in a proper C2 with a Zav following 0 hours of training. This reminds me of the controversy over high-tech swimsuits for middle schoolers."

I fully agree with your comment. And, this is not a concern for me. I basically workout ~2 hours a day (4-5 days a week) and my job is a physical therapist, so have a doctorate in physical medicine. I’ve also done ultra-marathons and have no problem pushing through being uncomfortable.

My education, however, is not helpful when it comes to the best gear for this activity. Hence, the thread question.

Basketcase: "2 emails sent to GRB… crickets…"

I think you have to call Gene. 315-323-0946. I think that must be his private cell number because every time I've called he always seems surprised. He's a great guy and will tell you what delivery time you can expect. I hope his health is OK.

Z4K: "The cost of your equipment matters not if you are out of shape. ."

Thank you. Finally said.
Your canoe paddle is a very very small part of the speed of your travel.

Your body is the biggest factor in speed.

And nobody has mentioned the wind. A head-wind trumps everything.

Plan on 4 mph on a good day and use that as a benchmark.
If this is indeed a ‘race’ to knife then I guess…have a good time!
Tom

sns: "

billconner: "Not at all stupid to bring a single and a double. I always do on my solos."

+1.


My feeling is that the biggest difference-maker for a single blade is the light weight. Lifting a 2 pound paddle 10,000 times makes one more fatigued than lifting an 8oz paddle the same number of times.


Blade shape and angle are important too, but for me I really notice the weight. In fact, my super-light carbon fiber paddles are so buoyant that they pop back up out of the water at the end of every stroke. Lovely feeling…. Like wearing ladies underwear."

lol! Also, you’re right on. +1 People always seem to forget that you’re doing this repetitive motion all day and a few ounces can really make a world of a difference. The only drawback I’ve found with the CF paddles is that you need to be delicate with them. You’re not going to want to shove off of rocks with it, drag it on the ground along portages, or use it to prop up a tarp guy line, etc. They’re just not as tough as wood, but you’ll notice the difference immediately on the water. I have both a Kayak and Canoe paddle in CF and love them. Well worth the extra money. I have an Aqua Bound yak paddle in the 280 cm length. You’ll want that, 270 is probably too short for anyone 6’ and up. Have a great trip!

Tony

There's so much fantastic advice on this thread already, and I echo what folks have said - the motor is more important than the prop meaning the person is more important than the paddle (but the paddle and canoe do help.) I don't have much to add as I am a wood paddle guy for the sake of feel, but I will say there is merit in being very intentional with the grip style and the length of the paddle if you're serious about speed. A longer paddle equals more power, a shorter paddle equals less fatigue (simplification). Where you fall on that scale is a factor of your conditioning, paddle stroke style, personal preference, and the type of canoe you're paddling. And if you're truly trying to optimize everything, the diameter of the paddle shaft and the style of handle both play a big role in how well you can maintain a paddlestroke from the start of the day to the end. If the paddle shaft is too large for your hands, fatigue will set in. The grip style is mostly personal preference, though different styles do different things better than others. But, with anything, if you're truly trying to optimize you'll find what works for your style and become comfortable with it the more you use it.

Following up after my return from BWCA:
- I used the carbon-fiber bent shaft from the outfitter and this worked great.
- My friend was reluctant to switch to the MN2 from the Basswood, so we were stuck with the bathtub for our duration (although, on the trip back from knife to AP we had 2' swells and I was grateful for the stability of the BW)
- We were able to make it from AP to knife (with 2 trips back and forth on monument portages due to the amount of crap we brought) in 5 hours and 42 minutes; we also had ideal conditions of flat seas and a 5mph tailwind
- Our return trip from knife to AP was 7 hours and 15 minutes due to the sustained 25mph winds that gusted to 5mph never (where is the throwing-up emoji?)
- I brought the kayak paddles, but I only used them for about 30 minutes for the entry and not once on the return. The carbon bent was good enough to handle everything and even better in the rough sea conditions so I could get more power when I needed it.
- Cold water fishing is completely different than warm water. We burned through 2 pounds of leeches last year and over 400 fish caught last year in a week. We caught 7 total fish this year and went through 8 leeches of our total 2 pounds. Make sure you do your research on how to fish cold water before you go during this time of year. However, my PR Walleye and the over 50" Pike (think Human Centipede of a half-dozen Folger's cans) I had next to the canoe more than made up for the rest of the downtime...

Let me know if you have other questions. Put your gear back where you grab it from. I don't know how long I spent looking for my friend's Gerber or camp-soap.. I have dry-bags of different colors for a reason. Hydration stuff goes in the blue, electronics go in the orange, poop-kit/washing stuff goes in the gray, etc

billconner: "Not at all stupid to bring a single and a double. I always do on my solos."

Yep!