I had heard that the BW was going to have discussion about the requirement to hang and the use of Bear Barrels.

We did a trip in early June and hung for the 1st time. We never had before, we always used the canoe method of putting packs under at night. (and never had an issue in over 50 combined trips). This was an 8 day 7 night trip in the ottertrack/knife area.
We hung as instructed and used 2 bear barrels that we placed back in the woods.
We were only a group of 2 for the 1st time ever, our groups normally are 4-8 people.
No bear issues.
My overall feelings about hanging:
It was difficult.
It took a lot of time.
Hanging after dark when we got back from fishing was very difficult and dangerous to a point. Tripping and falling in the woods in the dark with headlamps wasnt great. We could have hung it before we left but we feel better about having our food with us.

We even took less comfort food to keep the pack we hung lighter. We took 1 bear barrel for each of us. That was a minimum amount of food for us. We ate pretty much everything by the last night. Luckily we ate fish for 4 dinners (which is more than we like to kill on a trip) but needed the protein since we couldnt bring in more because our 1 hang pack was filled to the brim.
We had 2 days of rain and hanging and lowering the hang pack was a very wet adventure each time.
Next time we will take a bright small tarp to put over the bear barrels because water got in during the previously mentioned days.
Finding adequate spots at 3 of our campsites was difficult. Many of the trees just didnt have branches strong enough for our pack...and our hang pack was actually pretty small, half the size of a normal food pack.
We could see branches broken at most of our sites that looked like a typical attempt of a hang that didnt go well.

If we were a larger group that had more food to hang or heavier packs, it would have been a REAL pain and expensive because we found that 1 barrel was barely enough food for 1 person for 8 days. So if we took a group of 6 next year, we have to buy 4 more barrels at $90 each. That really ups the cost.
Hanging bigger and heavier packs would NOT be fun and lead to more broken branches and be a huge time waste.

I hope they review the rule and get rid of it. Seems like a waste of time and much higher cost to a trip. We felt like it made an already difficult trip that much harder dealing with it each night.

How do other feel about it and how did it go for you on your trips?

I used to use Ursacks, now I use Bear Vaults. Haven't had any bear issues with either one, although the dang chipmunks chewed on my Bear Vault last trip. Left some pretty significant marks on it.

You are aware that you don't need to hang if you use approved bear-resistant containers, right? Not sure what you mean by "bear barrel".

The cost is what it is. For me it's not a deal breaker, but I can understand large groups being upset about having to invest several hundred dollars into Bear Vaults, Ursacks, etc if they don't want to hang. You gotta remember though, they should last a long time, so if you trip every year, and you think about the actual cost per trip, it's not so bad.

We(I) am still using the blue barrel and hanging. I do not have any issue with BV500's or other certified containers but I already own a blue barrel, harness, and pulley system so I do not have any intention to change unless issues occur. I also wasn't sure what you meant by bear barrel in the original post, but as NEIowapaddler stated if they are the certified "blue" BV500s or similar they do not need to be up in a tree. You may want to check the seals or threads if you had water get in.

My blue barrel is the 60L variety which holds enough food and camp kitchen gear for 4 people for a week and can be quite heavy depending on the menu. With some practice and a rope and pulley setup, hanging is much more manageable. Finding an appropriate spot and getting our rope and pulley system up is one of the first things we do once we arrive at a campsite. You can still take the food pack with you while fishing or exploring, but at least the hang system is in place for after dark.

I am sorry to say…and maybe I am wrong but I don’t think it is going to change.

2024 bear encounters were down significantly in the BWCAW. I don’t believe those numbers at all as there were more reports of Bear issues on the website than what the FS reported :) smells like someone is cooking the books…but that further solidifies my thoughts the rules are here to stay.

2025 should be out soon and by all reports food was more abundant the number of encounters should be down naturally.

So the deck is stacked against ya.

Per other comments Bear Vaults ARE NOT waterproof. If you do a long trip, move a lot, have a lot of rain it’s pretty easy for water to get in there so double bag food, waterproof your portage packs.

T

timatkn: "Per other comments Bear Vaults ARE NOT waterproof. If you do a long trip, move a lot, have a lot of rain it’s pretty easy for water to get in there so double bag food, waterproof your portage packs.

T"

I admit I've never had to deal with a lot of rain in the time I've been using Bear vaults, but I don't understand how water can get into them unless they're sitting on their side or upside down. If you keep them upright I can't imagine any way water gets inside unless they're literally submerged. Has anyone ever had water get into one while it was upright with the lid screwed on tightly?

These are what we used. We liked them quite a bit really. People complained on reviews about how hard they are to get into but we had no issues. Just follow the directions. I will have to buy 2 more, though. Really, 1 per person per 7 nights PLUS a bag (we used a medium sized soft sided cooler that fit down inside the portage pack perfectly) with all our fresh steaks, brats, eggs, cheese and such.

I guess for me it was more about cutting out some good fresh food because we wanted our hang pack to be as small as possible but that was for a group of 2. Next year it looks like my family of 4 so we will need double the food. 2 of which have never been.

It was just much more difficult. I wish they would recommend it but not require it.

NEIowapaddler: "

timatkn: "Per other comments Bear Vaults ARE NOT waterproof. If you do a long trip, move a lot, have a lot of rain it’s pretty easy for water to get in there so double bag food, waterproof your portage packs.

T"

I admit I've never had to deal with a lot of rain in the time I've been using Bear vaults, but I don't understand how water can get into them unless they're sitting on their side or upside down. If you keep them upright I can't imagine any way water gets inside unless they're literally submerged. Has anyone ever had water get into one while it was upright with the lid screwed on tightly? "

I don’t understand how but once I left it perfectly upright, I got water in so I started leaving it on the side and I’ve not had water on it since and I’ve had much rain on my trips

MarshallPrime: "

These are what we used. We liked them quite a bit really. People complained on reviews about how hard they are to get into but we had no issues. Just follow the directions. I will have to buy 2 more, though. Really, 1 per person per 7 nights PLUS a bag (we used a medium sized soft sided cooler that fit down inside the portage pack perfectly) with all our fresh steaks, brats, eggs, cheese and such.

I guess for me it was more about cutting out some good fresh food because we wanted our hang pack to be as small as possible but that was for a group of 2. Next year it looks like my family of 4 so we will need double the food. 2 of which have never been.

It was just much more difficult. I wish they would recommend it but not require it."

I bought one of these as well. I liked it well enough. I'm afraid to put it on the bottom of the pack though since I think it might crack if I set the pack down hard on a rock. Not like the blue barrel that I used previously. I'll have to rethink how I pack the kitchen pack. My buddy bought an Ursack and combined the 2 have enough storage for the trip, but they don't fit as nicely in the barrel pack as the barrel did.

The buttons to open were easy to use and tool free. I have heard that you want to be careful with sand and dust through since if can cause the lid to bind if it works into the threads. The 3 piece design means I can downsize it as we go through the food, or just pack for a smaller trip. Overall I like the bear canister, but not as much as I liked having the blue barrel and the barrel pack.

NEIowapaddler: "

timatkn: "Per other comments Bear Vaults ARE NOT waterproof. If you do a long trip, move a lot, have a lot of rain it’s pretty easy for water to get in there so double bag food, waterproof your portage packs.

T"

I admit I've never had to deal with a lot of rain in the time I've been using Bear vaults, but I don't understand how water can get into them unless they're sitting on their side or upside down. If you keep them upright I can't imagine any way water gets inside unless they're literally submerged. Has anyone ever had water get into one while it was upright with the lid screwed on tightly? "

Yes, more than once I have had water get into my BearVault, which was standing upright, lid side up, screwed on tight, in moderate rain. I don’t understand at all how it happens.

EmmaMorgan: "Yes, more than once I have had water get into my BearVault, which was standing upright, lid side up, screwed on tight, in moderate rain. I don’t understand at all how it happens."

That is very strange. Guess I'll have to keep that in mind when dealing with rain in the future. I always have my food in plastic bags of course, but typically not double bagged like I would if I expected it to get wet. That's precisely the reason I stopped using Ursacks; I found trying to keep them from getting soaked when it rained was too much aggravation for my tastes.

NEIowapaddler: "

EmmaMorgan: "Yes, more than once I have had water get into my BearVault, which was standing upright, lid side up, screwed on tight, in moderate rain. I don’t understand at all how it happens."

That is very strange. Guess I'll have to keep that in mind when dealing with rain in the future. I always have my food in plastic bags of course, but typically not double bagged like I would if I expected it to get wet. That's precisely the reason I stopped using Ursacks; I found trying to keep them from getting soaked when it rained was too much aggravation for my tastes. "

If you put your food into Smelly Proof bags in an Ursack, the food will stay perfectly dry in the heaviest of rain. That is proper technique anyway. Regular plastic bags aren't enough to decrease the odor radius properly.

If I was regularly bringing in groups of 4 or more people, and fresh food such as steaks, eggs, etc. was on the menu, I would look at getting a blue barrel 30L or the 60L version, and then filling that up with Ursacks of food. No need to hang, and everything is still following regulation.

High intial cost for all the equipment, but considering I have had my Ursack going on 10 years plus and it still looks brand new, I think it will last for a good long time.

Good luck, but I don't think those requirements are going away.

I believe those blue bear barrels are no longer acceptable or if you use them they must still be hung. Is that incorrect?

MarshallPrime: "I believe those blue bear barrels are no longer acceptable or if you use them they must still be hung. Is that incorrect? "

Yep, you can use a Blue Barrel, stash it on the ground, as long as all food is contained in an IGBC (Interagency Grizzley Bear Committee) approved container, of which an Ursack is one.

IGBC approved list here: https://igbconline.org/programs/bear-resistant-products/

"Q. Can you use your Blue Barrel and put an IGBC-approved container inside the barrel?
A. Yes you can."
Link to updated FAQ about food storage from Forest Service here: https://www.boreal.org/2024/05/21/492020/updated-faqs-for-boundary-waters-canoe-area-wilderness-bear-aware-food-storage-order

If anyone has more current info, please chime in.

NEIowapaddler: "

timatkn: "Per other comments Bear Vaults ARE NOT waterproof. If you do a long trip, move a lot, have a lot of rain it’s pretty easy for water to get in there so double bag food, waterproof your portage packs.

T"

Has anyone ever had water get into one while it was upright with the lid screwed on tightly? "

Well others have already chimed in…the manufacturer clearly states they are not smell nor waterproof. If the vault was…you may not be able to open it :)

In a pack my vaults are sideways but even if they weren’t I lay my portage packs down on their side not straight up to create better center of gravity.I think that is pretty normal. If you always paddle with no rain…you have better luck than me :) Water soaks through the pack…into the vault. Or sits in the bottom of the canoe and soaks through.

Also even if standing up. The seal isn’t water proof, water hits the top of the vault, runs down, and goes through the lid because the seal isn’t waterproof by design. A light rain no issues but it doesn’t take much.

T

Minnesotian: "

MarshallPrime: "I believe those blue bear barrels are no longer acceptable or if you use them they must still be hung. Is that incorrect? "

Yep, you can use a Blue Barrel, stash it on the ground, as long as all food is contained in an IGBC (Interagency Grizzley Bear Committee) approved container, of which an Ursack is one.


IGBC approved list here: https://igbconline.org/programs/bear-resistant-products/


"Q. Can you use your Blue Barrel and put an IGBC-approved container inside the barrel?
A. Yes you can."
Link to updated FAQ about food storage from Forest Service here: https://www.boreal.org/2024/05/21/492020/updated-faqs-for-boundary-waters-canoe-area-wilderness-bear-aware-food-storage-order


If anyone has more current info, please chime in. "

I agree so far this seems to be legal. Waterproof, smell proof…then add the ursack so you can say you are following their made up rules not based on science or research :)

T

Minnesotian: "... a blue barrel 30L or the 60L version, and then filling that up with Ursacks of food. "

I was under the impression that the Ursacks needed to be tied to a tree/rock etc in order to meet the requirement but I can't find anything from IGBC about it, there's no * next to it on their list of approved products that I can find, the only place I see the extra instructions is at Ursack's website Ursack How-to-use

IGBC Approved Products List

Z4K: "

Minnesotian: "... a blue barrel 30L or the 60L version, and then filling that up with Ursacks of food. "

I was under the impression that the Ursacks needed to be tied to a tree/rock etc in order to meet the requirement but I can't find anything from IGBC about it, there's no * next to it on their list of approved products that I can find, the only place I see the extra instructions is at Ursack's website Ursack How-to-use

IGBC Approved Products List "

Yeah, and that How-to-use link states "No trees? Try hiding your Ursack under a pile of rocks."

Minnesotian: "No trees? Try hiding your Ursack under a pile of rocks."

Wow, I hadn't realized, that is ridiculous.

So this is approved? I can just fill my blue barrel up with Ursacks?

Z4K: "

Minnesotian: "No trees? Try hiding your Ursack under a pile of rocks."

Wow, I hadn't realized, that is ridiculous.


So this is approved? I can just fill my blue barrel up with Ursacks?"

Below is copy and pasted from the SNF website and FAQ under the food storage rule.


Can you use your Blue Barrel and put an IGBC approved container inside the barrel.
Yes you can.

I dont see the point of the Ursack inside a blue bear barrel. Neither is smell resistant right? Putting the Ursack inside seems redundant to me. Seems like you would need a smell proof bag inside the blue bear barrel would do the job but some say no to this.

Tying a Ursack to a tree so the bear can smash everything inside also doesnt make any sense to me so Ive never understood these Ursacks.

Hanging Giant food packs for groups of 6 or 8 people also makes no sense for the damage to trees and the amount of work.

MarshallPrime: "I dont see the point of the Ursack inside a blue bear barrel. Neither is smell resistant right? Putting the Ursack inside seems redundant to me. Seems like you would need a smell proof bag inside the blue bear barrel would do the job but some say no to this.
"

The camping blue barrels have plastic seal on them, they should be water tight thus smell proof or at least smell reducing. Even when I used blue barrels i still sealed everyhting in bags to water proof or keep messes out of the barrel. But why someone whoudl use a ursack in a barrel would be to waterproof it further or kepe itmems form getting smashed.

I think why the FS allows them (ursack) in a barrel is if the bear breaches the barrel, they should not be able to get the food in the ursack.

T

MarshallPrime: "Tying a Ursack to a tree so the bear can smash everything inside also doesnt make any sense to me so Ive never understood these Ursacks."

People use Ursacks because they are cheaper, lighter, and overall more convenient than bear canisters or hanging. Yes you need to be aware that a bear can ruin whatever is inside an Ursack, but it's no different than people (like me) who for decades followed the Cliff Jacobson "stash" philosophy, with the added benefit of making it much more difficult for the bear to get a reward if they do find it. There are also many instances of bears destroying BearVaults and blue bear barrels and getting to hangs, so nothing is infallible.

Every food storage method is a compromise of convenience vs risk and what any particular person prefers is going to be subjective. It's important to note that there is not any data that shows the success rates of each method, it's all conjecture. But I think it's pretty safe to say that the chances of a bear getting your food with any properly done method are slim.

This is tangential to the thread, but seems apt:

Despite the permit vendor/distributor's (Piragis) spirited admonition, I did not bring up an Ursack, blue barrel, bear barrel, or any other hardened piece of equipment. Yes, I know that is against the rules. I'm not trying to posture myself as some kind of BWCA rebel, but I do use the Cliff Jacobson method that he taught me when I tripped with him over 40 years ago. It's working for me.

I do the time-honored Sierra cup/small saucepan early warning system: I fill a pan or similar with a few pebbles or small rocks, then tie or BDB the pan to the pack that has my food. Up until August, and over 50 trips, this alarm has never sounded in the middle of the night. However, during my solo trip in August on Wood Lake, the alarm did sound, and startled me awake in a way I have never experienced. (The pack with my food was under my tarp, not more than 50 feet away. I should have stashed it more in the woods as the Jacobson method suggests.) I immediately loudly yelled something to the effect of "hey, get out of here" or something similar. I did not hear anything that sounded like an animal exiting the area. I moved the pack so I could see it from my tent. I was up for about 90 minutes, and all was still.

Night was quiet until sunrise, when I heard it again. Again I yelled, and I looked and again no sight or sounds of an animal exiting the area. I came to the conclusion that a rodent or squirrel or chipmunk had actually climbed into the pan, disrupting the pebbles, triggering the "alarm." There was no bear sign, no bear sounds (as in crunching his way through the woods), so that's what I figured.

I have had bears in camp on two occasions: once on Devils Elbow Lake while we were cooking a meal (I can't remember if it was breakfast or dinner); and another time on the northwest site on Little Trout Lake. We were having coffee and pop tarts, and the bear saunters into the periphery of our camp. I think the bear came for the prodigious crop of raspberries that took up most of the hillside to the north of the camp. Anyway, he scooted away with no further problems.

Thanks for listening to my rambling and decidedly stream-of-consciousness reminiscing.

Mike

Double post

Mike

MarshallPrime: "I dont see the point of the Ursack inside a blue bear barrel. Neither is smell resistant right? Putting the Ursack inside seems redundant to me.

"

Correct, it is redundant, but the practice of an Ursack in a blue barrel aligns with the regulations while also having the convenience of using a blue barrel, and not having to hang it to meet regulations.

Tying a Ursack to a tree so the bear can smash everything inside also doesnt make any sense to me so Ive never understood these Ursacks.
"

As I said earlier in the year to you here, the intent of an Ursack is not to save the food for YOU, but to prevent an easy meal for the BEAR. By preventing the bear from getting an easy meal, you are not creating a habitual bear that sees humans as an easy meal target.

Hanging Giant food packs for groups of 6 or 8 people also makes no sense for the damage to trees and the amount of work.
"

Then if you don't want to use a blue barrel with Ursacks, or try hanging something, you are left with using Bear Resistant Products approved by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee, which the Forest Service relies on for testing and approval of bear resistant products. A complete list of approved IGBC products (for the 3rd time in this thread) is located here:

https://igbconline.org/programs/bear-resistant-products/

As I said earlier in the year to you here, the intent of an Ursack is not to save the food for YOU, but to prevent an easy meal for the BEAR. By preventing the bear from getting an easy meal, you are not creating a habitual bear that sees humans as an easy meal target.

Yes, I know we discussed it last May but I wanted to bring it up to see what new information was out there or fish for any new ideas that worked.
Also, clearly Im hoping they do not renew the mandate and make it more of a strongly recommended guideline.

Also, I have been trying to come to grips with the option of the Ursack. While I think the idea of a bear smashing my food for a 10 day trip sounds horrible, this is where I am at now. I doubt it would happen.
For MANY years we used the turn canoe upside down on the packs and use pans as an alarm method at night. We have brought student groups up to the BW since 1992. Usually 6 groups of 6 kids and 2 chaperones. I started in 2005 and took over the program in 2009. The program ended for many reasons in 2019. Now we do 1 or 2 personal trips each year.

Overall our groups (around 175ish trips from 1992-2025) never had a bear in camp but lots of false alarms with wind blowing the pots off the canoe. LOL
We never had a bear going after food. Most trips were anywhere from Poplar, Frost, Long Island, Granite River, Ogish, Knife Lake, Even 5 or 6 trips to Kawnipi.

Anyway, the more i think it through, the Ursack WOULD be a similar situation to the upside down canoe. If I put bells on it, tie it to the tree as directed, I guess we would get the same warning signal if a bear messed with it as we would if they messed with the canoe. Then go out, scare it away and change sites if it keeps messing with us, although we rarely stay at the same site more than 2 nights.
This could help me do less hanging and keep the food protected...and bears I guess. I do like how the canoe also helps rainproof the bags at night and lord knows we have been through some downpours in the middle of the night.

We always take our food with us for day trips or while out fishing, never leaving it at camp alone.

Im not excited about the additional cost of a Ursack which is HIGH, it does seem like it would be similar to the canoe at night.
thanks for helping me think it through everyone.
This board is great.

Minnesotian: "
If I was regularly bringing in groups of 4 or more people, and fresh food such as steaks, eggs, etc. was on the menu, I would look at getting a blue barrel 30L or the 60L version, and then filling that up with Ursacks of food. No need to hang, and everything is still following regulation.


High intial cost for all the equipment, but considering I have had my Ursack going on 10 years plus and it still looks brand new, I think it will last for a good long time.


Good luck, but I don't think those requirements are going away. "

we dont have the requirements across the border that you all have, but if we did, and i needed a fair amount of food and kitchen gear, i think this is what i would do.
i already use light dry bags for my food. so i would just drop those in sperate ursacks (maybe break them up into breakfast, lunch, dinner??), then drop them all in the barrel.
whats the downside besides the cost?
smells are kept to a minimum, the sacks ensure you are compliant, the barrel keeps everything organized / together, no need to hang it (just tie to a tree at camp or when unattended on a portage), makes it easy to transport, protects it from weather and other smaller critters.
sounds good to me.
not budget friendly for a solo or anyone who might only use it once in awhile, but a group could split the cost. and anyone planning to be doing this long term will have it probably for life.

MarshallPrime: "I'm not excited about the additional cost of a Ursack which is HIGH, it does seem like it would be similar to the canoe at night. Thanks for helping me think it through everyone.
This board is great.
"

To reduce the price of an Ursack, go to the company's website and sign up for email notifications. You won't get many, but you will receive notifications when they hold their fall and spring sales (typically 25%off).

Ausable: "

MarshallPrime: "I'm not excited about the additional cost of a Ursack which is HIGH, it does seem like it would be similar to the canoe at night. Thanks for helping me think it through everyone.
This board is great.
"

To reduce the price of an Ursack, go to the company's website and sign up for email notifications. You won't get many, but you will receive notifications when they hold their fall and spring sales (typically 25%off)."

They were just on sale last week for 25% off. Seem to have sales 2-3 times per year. Best I saw was 30% off.

Z4K: "

Minnesotian: "... a blue barrel 30L or the 60L version, and then filling that up with Ursacks of food. "

I was under the impression that the Ursacks needed to be tied to a tree/rock etc in order to meet the requirement but I can't find anything from IGBC about it, there's no * next to it on their list of approved products that I can find, the only place I see the extra instructions is at Ursack's website Ursack How-to-use

IGBC Approved Products List "

Easiest way to attach an Ursack to a tree: I use a set of colored carabiners so each sack is a different color to help me keep track of which has breakfast, lunch, dinner, etc. And once again, I will stress the importance of using odor reducing bags inside like "Smelly Proof" brand (cheaper and sturdier than Opsak). This also keeps the food waterproofed.

straighthairedcurly: "

Z4K: "

Minnesotian: "... a blue barrel 30L or the 60L version, and then filling that up with Ursacks of food. "

I was under the impression that the Ursacks needed to be tied to a tree/rock etc in order to meet the requirement but I can't find anything from IGBC about it, there's no * next to it on their list of approved products that I can find, the only place I see the extra instructions is at Ursack's website Ursack How-to-use


IGBC Approved Products List "

Easiest way to attach an Ursack to a tree: I use a set of colored carabiners so each sack is a different color to help me keep track of which has breakfast, lunch, dinner, etc. And once again, I will stress the importance of using odor reducing bags inside like "Smelly Proof" brand (cheaper and sturdier than Opsak). This also keeps the food waterproofed. "

When I quote your post it looks like you tried to link but it didn't work. Here's the instruction video:

A couple of thoughts:

Equating a blue barrel to a BV500 is not based on facts. Yes there are a small handful of bears (mainly in the Adirondacks) that have breeched a BV500. There are far more instances. . . in the BWCA. . .of blue barrels being torn open.

Can any system be breeched. yes. So the issue is what are the hardest for a bear to breach. I go to the registry of bear certified devices for that information. We bring BV 500's and/or bear certified coolers with bearproof locks for our trips. I realize that is not a backpacking or ultralight solution. But for those equating blue barrels with BV 500's, the facts do not support this.

ockycamper: " A couple of thoughts:


Equating a blue barrel to a BV500 is not based on facts. Yes there are a small handful of bears (mainly in the Adirondacks) that have breeched a BV500. There are far more instances. . . in the BWCA. . .of blue barrels being torn open.

But for those equating blue barrels with BV 500's, the facts do not support this."

1. Do you have statistics to back up your statement? It’s probably true, but I am guessing right now it’s opinion. I’ve looked for numbers of breached food storage and haven’t seen any from the FS. So anything else is just conjecture/opinion. Show me real facts/numbers?

2. No one in this thread that I saw equated Blue Barrels to BV500’s? People just mentioned the different methods legal methods of food storage.

I got my data from a google AI search. The few times a BV500 has been breached, according to the research, they had not been ratcheted down correctly turning it to multiple clicks

There are scores of instances and pictures where bears have chewed through a blue barrel. Many outfitters have examples of blue barrels being chewed through on display. I can't find any record of a black bear in the BWCA getting into a BV500.

I realize trippers love the blue barrels, probably due to cost and capacity. However I will go with the IGBC list of bear certified containers. We take coolers in our camps that are on that list. I realize that does not work for portaging, but we are base campers.

We use Ursacks.

Previous to that we utilized both hanging and Cliffy's stash method, depending on how late in the night it was and how much we'd drank. Sober equaled food was hung. Finished the flask of bourbon = food was stashed in a bush.

We've never had a bear in camp. I'm convinced, hanging, stashing, hiding under the canoe...none of them work any better than the other. It's literally just a matter of whether you have a bear wander into camp or not. Aside from bear proof containers properly secured all other methods can develop a problem bear and for that reason, I like the Ursack. If used and secured properly, it should keep the bears from developing the habit.

ockycamper: "I got my data from a google AI search. The few times a BV500 has been breached, according to the research, they had not been ratcheted down correctly turning it to multiple clicks
"

There are plenty of instances of BV500s being breached by bears with their lids still attached.



AI is still a terrible source of information and does not qualify as research.

Nobody is claiming a blue barrel is just as secure as a BearVault. The point is that all methods can be breached, but none are likely to be if done properly.

plmn: "

ockycamper: "I got my data from a google AI search. The few times a BV500 has been breached, according to the research, they had not been ratcheted down correctly turning it to multiple clicks
"

There are plenty of instances of BV500s being breached by bears with their lids still attached.




AI is still a terrible source of information and does not qualify as research.

Nobody is claiming a blue barrel is just as secure as a BearVault. The point is that all methods can be breached, but none are likely to be if done properly.
"

I mean it took less than 5 minutes to find A LOT of failed BV500’s. When I look for blue barrels I find a lot of the same pic over and over…just saying…agree AI is a terrible search engine and typically perpetuates what you WANT to see not necessarily the truth. Do I think a BV is better. Yes…but there isn’t actual evidence presented to prove that. Evidence would be last year 20 blue barrels were breached and zero BV’s were. Need numbers…anything else is just opinion.

The bear vaults help keep critters out of your food.

But they also make it really inconvenient for the corn cob and watermelon rind crowd to visit federal wilderness areas.

I think the latter, rather than the former, is why they're not going away long term (short term, is anyones guess these days). They're a slob filter.

NotLight: "The bear vaults help keep critters out of your food.


But they also make it really inconvenient for the corn cob and watermelon rind crowd to visit federal wilderness areas.


I think the latter, rather than the former, is why they're not going away long term (short term, is anyones guess these days). They're a slob filter.
"

A lot to unpack on that comment…which I think was wrong… I will agree the rules won’t change…slob filter no way! I mean all you need is a knock off yeti such as a Walmart Ozark trail cooler with a screw and bolt. Meets the regs…cheaper, holds more food, meets IGB guidelines totally legal. Easy to carry on a short trip.

T

NotLight: "The bear vaults help keep critters out of your food.


But they also make it really inconvenient for the corn cob and watermelon rind crowd to visit federal wilderness areas.


I think the latter, rather than the former, is why they're not going away long term (short term, is anyones guess these days). They're a slob filter.


"

I don't dismiss the "slob filter theory" as the reason FS made the decision, although the logic of it is flawed. With a 30L or 60L barrel alone, it was easy to manage your food waste over a trip - just use a separate garbage bag. Even average slobs could manage that. Last year we rented the 60L barrel and two Ursacks and fudged on the waste (left in barrel but not Ursack) until the end of each day. This year we used two Bear Vaults (BV500s) for our food and waste - sufficient for two people and a medium size dog for five nights. With no other container, we had to repack our waste after every meal. For the slob element, I see this last mode as being the most likely to result in cobs and rinds in the fireplace.

The original post complained about the insufficient volume of BV500s. What we learned is that the pre-packaged cook-in bags (Mountain House, Peak 360, etc.) are just too inefficient volumetrically to be used exclusively if you are going on a longer trip. We fish for meals but plan on getting skunked so we ended up carrying out about a quarter of the food, which ironically, was mostly the well-packaged, Minnesota-sourced dehydrated meals we have brought as reserve food for a few years. Time to reorder those.

The biggest advantage of the big barrel with a harness in my mind was the ease of portaging and carrying about from camp to distant hiding spot as a distinct unit. Our packs are already full and near our weight-carrying limit. Adding BV500s internally or externally to those packs wasn't a great option.

What I came up with was to buy an Army surplus rucksack pack on eBay ($45) strip off the rucksack from the polycarbonate frame and shoulder straps, wash it (these things are filthy!), buy 1" polyester strap and buckles from Amazon ($16) and 1.5" Tri-Glide retainers ($14) also from Amazon. The BV500s lie horizontally, with one strap each horizontally across the beam of the vault. Two vertical straps hold the BVs up. The one inch straps fit perfectly into the slots of the frame. In each of the four locations where a horizontal and vertical strap meet, I put one of the 1.5" tri-glide retainers (black in the photo) at 45 degrees, which holds everything rigidly in place, and IS a mandatory design feature to prevent the horizontal straps from sliding down. An ambitious person might box stitch these instead. We trialed this on some rugged trails in Austin before going North - all good with no shifting. It is lightweight and we had lots of places as well to strap on fishing rod cases, life vests, canoe seats and water bottles.

This past summer some rangers pulled into our campsite in the morning while we were still all sleeping. Our blue barrels were sitting in the middle of camp. They never mentioned it and actually complimented how nice and clean our camp was.

While the letter of the regulation states these containers are illegal, maybe the rangers are enforcing the spirit/intent of the rule instead. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Does anybody know of a citation being issued for not hanging a barrel?

timatkn: "

plmn: "

ockycamper: "I got my data from a google AI search. The few times a BV500 has been breached, according to the research, they had not been ratcheted down correctly turning it to multiple clicks
"

The BV500 is officially approved by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee (IGBC) and the Sierra Interagency Black Bear Group. The blue barrels are not. I would think that would be evidence of one being a more secure method then the other?



There are plenty of instances of BV500s being breached by bears with their lids still attached.






AI is still a terrible source of information and does not qualify as research.


Nobody is claiming a blue barrel is just as secure as a BearVault. The point is that all methods can be breached, but none are likely to be if done properly.
"

I mean it took less than 5 minutes to find A LOT of failed BV500’s. When I look for blue barrels I find a lot of the same pic over and over…just saying…agree AI is a terrible search engine and typically perpetuates what you WANT to see not necessarily the truth. Do I think a BV is better. Yes…but there isn’t actual evidence presented to prove that. Evidence would be last year 20 blue barrels were breached and zero BV’s were. Need numbers…anything else is just opinion.







"

Hammertime: "This past summer some rangers pulled into our campsite in the morning while we were still all sleeping. Our blue barrels were sitting in the middle of camp. They never mentioned it and actually complimented how nice and clean our camp was.


While the letter of the regulation states these containers are illegal, maybe the rangers are enforcing the spirit/intent of the rule instead. Of course, your mileage may vary.


Does anybody know of a citation being issued for not hanging a barrel?"

I mean they could have assumed you were hanging them and just pulled them down? I am surprised they didn’t strike up a conversation though…”How are you storing your food” “How do you ensure you keep your food from animals”

It wouldn’t have taken a lot of effort to check…I mean one can lie of course but it could also be an educational moment. As much as I don’t like the new rules…they should at least put some effort in.

As far as fines…I haven’t heard of any. Just a few people getting warnings. I haven’t heard of anyone using blue barrels, the stories I heard were people hanging food improperly. Either lack of skill or in a burn area. Just got a speech is all I heard…

T

timatkn: "

Hammertime: "I mean they could have assumed you were hanging them and just pulled them down?
T"

That assumption seems unlikely as they came in the morning and we were all still in our hammocks/tents. When I woke up to somebody saying “forest service” I thought my buddies were messing with me at first (haha).

The situation made me wonder if any of the rangers cared about storing food in blue barrels on the ground. The fact that you have heard of others being warned means they do. Thanks!

On the bearvault vs blue barrel conversation I also have wondered if blue barrels really are a higher risk than bear vaults. There seem to be less examples out there of bears getting into bear vaults, but at the same time it seems to me the blue barrels are much more prolific (at least certainly in the paddling world) and have been in use over a longer period of time. Sure the bear vaults are tested and pass the bear resistant criteria, but the blue barrels do a better job of sealing in scent whereas the bear vault doesn't really seal up at all so I feel like they're a little less likely to attract attention in the first place?

I don't think we'll ever get good statistics/data on this and anything the forest service publishes is likely to be biased for justification of making the change. There's basically 0 chance of anyone else caring enough to do an independent study so we're pretty much left with speculation.

Personally it hasn't made much difference to me as I mostly used Ursacks before and will continue doing that moving forward. Feel sorry for the folks who can't afford an approved container and are stuck having to hang now though. Seems like just another small step in the process of outdoor recreation transitioning to something less attainable to the common man.

Last year, after the new regs, our teams just gave up and brought Lifetime bear certified coolers with us, and left the blue barrels and bear vaults behind.

Upside is we eat a lot more meat!

Hammertime: "

timatkn: "

Hammertime: "I mean they could have assumed you were hanging them and just pulled them down?
T"

That assumption seems unlikely as they came in the morning and we were all still in our hammocks/tents. When I woke up to somebody saying “forest service” I thought my buddies were messing with me at first (haha).

The situation made me wonder if any of the rangers cared about storing food in blue barrels on the ground. The fact that you have heard of others being warned means they do. Thanks!

"

I get the impression that this is more of a CYA order to show that they are being proactive and that if there are nuisance bears it is not their fault because they "did something" to prevent it. I've noticed over the years that doing something and failing to prevent a problem or making it worse, is a lot more acceptable than doing nothing and having it result in a problem. Plus, maintaining doesn't look as good on a resume as making changes.

Hammertime: "This past summer some rangers pulled into our campsite in the morning while we were still all sleeping. Our blue barrels were sitting in the middle of camp. They never mentioned it and actually complimented how nice and clean our camp was.


While the letter of the regulation states these containers are illegal, maybe the rangers are enforcing the spirit/intent of the rule instead. Of course, your mileage may vary.


Does anybody know of a citation being issued for not hanging a barrel?"

My experience with both game wardens and rangers over the years has been that they tend to be very practical and down to Earth law enforcement officers. If they see you are putting in the effort to be an ethical camper or hunter, they are going to be very easy to deal with.

The reality is that bear problems are entirely about people, not whether food is hung versus not hung or the type of container food is stored in. In backcountry areas with higher human traffic (i.e. some of the National Parks in the mountain west or the Boundary Waters), it is very easy for a few unethical campers to create habituated bears. Once bears become habituated, then it can be difficult or impossible to keep them out of food, even when folks are putting in the effort and using "best practices". In areas with low human traffic (i.e. remote National Forest lands, Quetico) managing bear encounters is totally different because habituated bears are far less common.

Most of us that have spent a lot of years engaged in backcountry travel and camping tend to become pretty astute at identifying other folks adept in the backcountry versus the folks that are a bit of a disaster. The rangers are no different. If they walk into a campsite occupied by experienced and ethical campers, the conversation is going to be drastically different than if they walk into a campsite that is a mess or occupied by clearly inexperienced or unethical campers.

My thought is that the rangers could tell very quickly that you were not a group that was going to be problematic and they (rightfully) acted accordingly during their interaction with you.

A1t2o: "I get the impression that this is more of a CYA order to show that they are being proactive and that if there are nuisance bears it is not their fault because they "did something" to prevent it. I've noticed over the years that doing something and failing to prevent a problem or making it worse, is a lot more acceptable than doing nothing and having it result in a problem. Plus, maintaining doesn't look as good on a resume as making changes."

Having been a bear manager (black and grizzly) in national parks for upwards of 20 years, it was never CYA. Initially, it's usually about keeping bears alive, as food conditioning is a death knell. If the problem persists, it turns into keeping people safe. Under what circumstances have you seen agencies making bear conflicts worse?

ockycamper: "Last year, after the new regs, our teams just gave up and brought Lifetime bear certified coolers with us, and left the blue barrels and bear vaults behind.


Upside is we eat a lot more meat!"

What did you buy, and how do you transport it?

I was wondering also, What are bear certified coolers and how to you portage them way back in the BW or the Q? I guess if you are staying on Sag or Seagull you dont portage but that isnt most trips.

A little background:

We take up 15-20 men each fall, broken into 3 camps. We had formerly used blue barrels like everyone else or food packs. After the new guidelines we went to BV500's. We are base campers and cook big breakfasts and dinners, as well as cook stuff for lunch. We found that for a group of 6-7 men it took five to 7 BV500 bearvaults. The guys hated those as we portaged them carrying one at a time.

So we went to the IGBC website and looked at the approved methods of food storage. It was Bearvaults or Ursacks. We wanted to move away from bearvaults and Ursacks simply did not carry enough food. So we went to the coolers. Our choice was Lifetime coolers. We use the Lifetime 55 quart coolers. They are $109 at Walmart. What makes any cooler IGBC certified is you have to use a locking method through the metal plates.

We have now used these coolers for two trips, typically two coolers per camp (one in each canoe). The guys would much rather put packs on their back and two person carry the coolers (with the attached side rope handles) then go back and forth for 7 bearvaults.

There is no perfect solution. However if you cook fresh food and meat a couple of times a day this is pretty much your only option to meet the new regs. We found that the Lifetime coolers would still keep stuff cold after 5 days If you were careful about opening the lids, and use two 1/2 gallon frozen water bottles, and put the food into the coolers frozen to start with. Lifetime Coolers

One other thing to point out for those that say they would never bring a cooler:

We can get all our food in two coolers per camp (for 7-8 men) to cook ten meals a week. Each canoe that has a cooler carries them through with one guy on each rope handle. This works on the Lifetime coolers as they have longer rope handles and two guys can carry a loaded up cooler easliy while also carrying a pack on their back. They fit in the canoe sideways. We would much rather do this then bring 7 bearvaults or multiple food packs and blue barrels.

ockycamper: " We found that for a group of 6-7 men it took five to 7 BV500 bearvaults. The guys hated those as we portaged them carrying one at a time. "

BearVaults can fit in packs. A few years ago I spent 30 days on the Noatak River in Alaska, most of which is in national parks. NPS regulations required the use of hard-sided canisters. For 30 days of food, each of us had 5 canisters, BearVaults and/or Garcias. For me, 4 fit in one pack (a discontinued NRS dry portage pack), and one in my main pack with all my other gear. Although they represented additional bulk and weight, we all felt better about having no chance that the abundant brown bears would get our food (we saw 8, and others came within 50 yards of camp).

Fun to see everyone's experiences and reflections. That's why I come here. My two cents:

I agree with above person who said no one system works better than others--just a matter of whether or not a bear wanders by. I've never seen one and I go mulitiple times per year.

I use the blue barrel and like it very much. There are some things I don't want crushed en route and my experience of losing food has WAY more to do with rodents than bears.

Hanging is a pain. I dislike it very much.

Bear Vaults appear so small to me I wonder "What's the point?" Seriously. That thing would not carry my snacks for the day, let alone enough food to make it worth carrying the many it would take to supply our group of six. Maybe I need to re-examine my food intake level.

We've gone to more freeze dried food and we eat more meals of fish now too so carrying less in is possible.

I put Ursacks in my blue barrel (I really think someone on their team had an "in" with the bear committee--imagine how great your business would be if yours was one of the only "official" items for food storage).

To keep down the cost of the Ursacks, I borrow them from a nice friend of mine. He is great and I appreciate it very much.

Finally, all I have said above is highly debatable, possibly dubious and maybe untrue in your experience but hey, that's why we're here, right? To learn stuff and share thoughts and ideas. Nothing stays the same. We learn, grow, adapt. Nice post.

pastorjsackett: "Bear Vaults appear so small to me I wonder "What's the point?" Seriously. That thing would not carry my snacks for the day, let alone enough food to make it worth carrying the many it would take to supply our group of six. Maybe I need to re-examine my food intake level. "

I definitely wish Bear Vault made a bigger version, but maybe increasing the size makes it easier for bears to break in, unless they beefed up the construction as well. I don't know. That said, I can fit 5 days of food into a Bear Vault if I really pack it tightly and maximize every bit of space. And I'm a big guy who eats quite a bit. But virtually all my food is dehydrated, which helps a lot.

plmn: "

straighthairedcurly: "

Z4K: "

Minnesotian: "... a blue barrel 30L or the 60L version, and then filling that up with Ursacks of food. "

I was under the impression that the Ursacks needed to be tied to a tree/rock etc in order to meet the requirement but I can't find anything from IGBC about it, there's no * next to it on their list of approved products that I can find, the only place I see the extra instructions is at Ursack's website Ursack How-to-use



IGBC Approved Products List "

Easiest way to attach an Ursack to a tree: I use a set of colored carabiners so each sack is a different color to help me keep track of which has breakfast, lunch, dinner, etc. And once again, I will stress the importance of using odor reducing bags inside like "Smelly Proof" brand (cheaper and sturdier than Opsak). This also keeps the food waterproofed. "

When I quote your post it looks like you tried to link but it didn't work. Here's the instruction video:


"

this is very succinct. Thank you

I have to watch this every time before I go in or I forget :)

T

I slide my BV into my blue barrel and strap it to a tree.
Safe and legal.
Easy peasy.