Trying to balance the challenges of the outfitters compared to the challenges of the trip. I have a permit scheduled for August 5th, it includes a shuttle, a tow, and a bunkhouse. A bunkhouse. My permit is for Magnetic Lake. It's not opening next week but who knows about the following week.

I have paddling partner making travel plans, that if they get canceled, he will be out some coin. Also, if we we're sure that our EP would remain closed, we could make other plans for a different paddling experience outside of the Boundary Waters.

So I'm just wondering what is the ethical thing to do? I really want to be sensitive to the outfitter who's providing the bunk house, tow and shuttle, but also want to make sure that we're not stranded at home the week we had planned on paddling.

What do you think? The and ethical timeline is to make other plans away from the BWCA?

I have a Aug 3 entry. With the latest closure extension
I am not feeling confident. Our reservation at Fall Lake for
the night before was cancelled. We have a plan B if BWCA is closed on our entry day.

We have reservations made for a "plan B" developed as well (Sylvania in Michigan) and are prepared to quickly pivot to that if needed but want to give our business to the outfitters and stores in Ely who have served us so very well in the past and will hold out for "plan A" of the BWCA until the very end if it comes to that.

I would hang into the shuttle, tow and bunkhouse for now, but I would definitely make a backup plan for a trip outside the BWCA if your EP doesn't open up in time. Sylvania, as has been suggested, or the Timber-Frear Canoe Route. Or just find a campground that's open and do day-trips to non-BWCA lakes. You can still have an enjoyable time if you keep your options open.

August 14th entry. I'm inevitably going to lose my stuart permit, so I grabbed a trout lake permit in the interim. Just found out they haven't opened that fully to overnite so I'm in the same boat. I think we are going to ely regardless and we will just have to try to snag a different permit last minute.

NEIowapaddler: "I would hang into the shuttle, tow and bunkhouse for now, but I would definitely make a backup plan for a trip outside the BWCA if your EP doesn't open up in time. Sylvania, as has been suggested, or the Timber-Frear Canoe Route. Or just find a campground that's open and do day-trips to non-BWCA lakes. You can still have an enjoyable time if you keep your options open. "

Right, I went to Sylvania last week when my first permit was canceled. My question is when to make plans for another place? If I wait until 3 days before my Boundary Waters entry point and then they cancel it, that's not going to leave enough time for my partner to change airline, travel plans, etc, plus what I learned is Sylvania is completely booked as are most other areas. So the longer you wait to make alternative plans, the less opportunity you have to actually make them come true. I could make some plans today and then have two sets of plans, but that's not reasonable either. I'm wondering if I should wait until next Wednesday and if they still haven't opened up magnetic Lake, cut bait and look for someplace else. The question is when is it ethically responsible to cancel my permit and plans and pivot to something else.. without being too late and missing out on everything?

I’m trying to figure this out. I was supposed to go with my nieces, mid-Aug. But with the EP being involved in a fire, I don’t have hope for a reopening this year.

Anyone think there’s a chance the area around Loon/LLC stays closed for the year?

Hello! I’m an EP 57 person as well, for August 3. We have been facing same issues. Flight, hotels, bunkhouse, tow. A party of two paddlers. The flights for Fair Spouse are so expensive that canceling was very ouchy. So today I made a Plan B trip with a base camp (don’t want to say where) and plans for 5 days of paddling different lake/river systems. We are fully committed to visiting the Boundary Waters this year. We are keeping the hotels (even added a night if they’ll have us) and the bunkhouse. Of course if the permit is cancelled, we’ll have to cancel the shuttle.

That said, day trips are just not the same. They will not captivate and challenge her as a first time touring canoeist. A campground is just not the same. The call of the wild is just not there. So here’s what I am wrestling with. Do we hold the EP 57 permit and pray for a positive development? Or do we cancel and try to rebook an overnight paddle adventure on Monday?

Not sure I could scrounge up an overnight adventure trip as iconic as and doable (for her) as the one we now have booked.

I’m inclined to hold, wait and see. And back into Plan B if needed. And somehow try to wow her with a few super cool day paddles.

Let us know how your own thinking develops!

wxce1260: "Right, I went to Sylvania last week when my first permit was canceled. My question is when to make plans for another place? If I wait until 3 days before my Boundary Waters entry point and then they cancel it, that's not going to leave enough time for my partner to change airline, travel plans, etc, plus what I learned is Sylvania is completely booked as are most other areas. So the longer you wait to make alternative plans, the less opportunity you have to actually make them come true. I could make some plans today and then have two sets of plans, but that's not reasonable either. I'm wondering if I should wait until next Wednesday and if they still haven't opened up magnetic Lake, cut bait and look for someplace else. The question is when is it ethically responsible to cancel my permit and plans and pivot to something else.. without being too late and missing out on everything?"

Apologies, I didn't fully understand what you were asking. They seem to be opening things up about a week in advance, so I would wait until Wednesday if that's not leaving it too long for your partner's travel plans. If they haven't said by then that your EP will be open by the 5th, I wouldn't feel guilty about cancelling the bunkhouse, etc. That way you've made a reasonable effort to wait as long as possible before cancelling, while still leaving a decent buffer to make new plans.

I am in Thief River Falls which is west of the BWCA and slightly north of it. We just got .71” and it is still raining. Baudette got over an inch of rain. The storms are moving towards the BWCA. I hope it continues.
What we got and are getting would certainly help with the fight.
PRAYING RAIN! RAIN! RAIN!
Carl

I recommend staying in touch with your outfitter as they can help you plan some alternate paddling and fishing in the area if the BWCA is closed. A lot of people are using Superior National Forest to get some time on the water. Better than a total cancel for you.

Deeznuts: "August 14th entry. I'm inevitably going to lose my stuart permit, so I grabbed a trout lake permit in the interim. Just found out they haven't opened that fully to overnite so I'm in the same boat. I think we are going to ely regardless and we will just have to try to snag a different permit last minute. "

Maybe you know this already??? And, maybe it will be a moot point anyways....or, won't be an issue even if?

But, We just drove past Lake Vermilion and there was a huge orange sign on the road that said Moccasin Point was closed until November 1. Not sure what this would all effect. But, I know that is the usual starting point for a Trout Lake permit & thought id give you a heads up.

Ughhhhhh of course it is :/
Thanks for the heads up. Will be reworking the plan AGAIN. I still have about 18 days to figure it out. I'm hoping I can grab a last minute permit but may have to reconfigure the whole trip now, since permit competition will be fierce. I have been planning this trip for 3 years and had to postpone coming last year because my father passed. Im determined to make this trip happen this year, for the sake of my sanity.

So sorry to hear this and I really hope you can arrive in a good place with all this going on ….

Deeznuts: "Ughhhhhh of course it is :/
Thanks for the heads up. Will be reworking the plan AGAIN. I still have about 18 days to figure it out. I'm hoping I can grab a last minute permit but may have to reconfigure the whole trip now, since permit competition will be fierce. I have been planning this trip for 3 years and had to postpone coming last year because my father passed. Im determined to make this trip happen this year, for the sake of my sanity. "

Deeznuts: "August 14th entry. I'm inevitably going to lose my stuart permit, so I grabbed a trout lake permit in the interim. Just found out they haven't opened that fully to overnite so I'm in the same boat. I think we are going to ely regardless and we will just have to try to snag a different permit last minute. "

Edited: Sorry didn’t see Trout Lake was day use only.
If you look at my post from the other day, Trout Lake is actually on the list of proposed entry points to open on 7/30 for day use. It all depends on what happens with rain and fire containment. It could open for overnight in time.

So there is still hope.

wxce1260: "Trying to balance the challenges of the outfitters compared to the challenges of the trip. I have a permit scheduled for August 5th, it includes a shuttle, a tow, and a bunkhouse. A bunkhouse. My permit is for Magnetic Lake. It's not opening next week but who knows about the following week.

I have paddling partner making travel plans, that if they get canceled, he will be out some coin. Also, if we we're sure that our EP would remain closed, we could make other plans for a different paddling experience outside of the Boundary Waters.

So I'm just wondering what is the ethical thing to do? I really want to be sensitive to the outfitter who's providing the bunk house, tow and shuttle, but also want to make sure that we're not stranded at home the week we had planned on paddling.

What do you think? The and ethical timeline is to make other plans away from the BWCA?"

Sorry looks like no plan to open Magnetic lake anytime soon. It’s right on the edge of the proposed openings. Entry 57? Correct?

timatkn: "

wxce1260: "Trying to balance the challenges of the outfitters compared to the challenges of the trip. I have a permit scheduled for August 5th, it includes a shuttle, a tow, and a bunkhouse. A bunkhouse. My permit is for Magnetic Lake. It's not opening next week but who knows about the following week.


I have paddling partner making travel plans, that if they get canceled, he will be out some coin. Also, if we we're sure that our EP would remain closed, we could make other plans for a different paddling experience outside of the Boundary Waters.


So I'm just wondering what is the ethical thing to do? I really want to be sensitive to the outfitter who's providing the bunk house, tow and shuttle, but also want to make sure that we're not stranded at home the week we had planned on paddling.


What do you think? The and ethical timeline is to make other plans away from the BWCA?"

Sorry looks like no plan to open Magnetic lake anytime soon. It’s right on the edge of the proposed openings. Entry 57? Correct?

"

this is kind of what I'm thinking. The maddening thing is it's a bit of a ways from the Little Knife fire, however, the only way out is Sagagana which can take you right into that fire zone. It will be interesting to see how the forest service opens and closes things based upon accessibility to fire zones.

As a back up plan you could access Quetico Provincial Park East from Powell Lake Resort Outfitters. Waiwag River, Mack Lake, McKenzie Lake, Ross Lake area.

Adding to this thread a detail about the chaos we’re experiencing as visitors. I won’t name names, but a few days ago (maybe as long ago as one week?) I placed a call to the place where we plan to stay before entry. I had to leave a message, so I sent messages of love and support and stated clearly that whatever happened with our OP permit, we would absolutely be there as planned. We would spend money as planned. We looked forward to seeing them and wished them the best in the meantime.

Now mind you, my permit for August 3 has still NOT in fact been cancelled on recreation.gov. The permit is live. I check it hourly. No cancellation, no refund.

But today I get a generic cancellation notice from the local business about our stay. Now I have to call the local business and say, um, i am your friendly and loyal customer, did you not listen to my message a few days ago? I get that things are stressed for property owners managing possible evacuation orders and prep etc, but I got pushback over the phone to the effect that “your permit has been cancelled.” And this was incorrect. So I said, “but it hasn’t. And until I receive that refund, I can’t book another entry date if something comes up, so I am just as frustrated about what “cancellation” means as you are. But whatever is happening with my canceled permit, I am still honoring my commitment to you. And even if my permit has been canceled, the whole point is, we are still coming to support you!”

I have to admit, the response I got was .… a bunch of excuses that amounted to: well everything is chaotic …. And literally not even an apology for randomly cancelling my reservation on bad information without listening to voice messages or checking my with me. Ok … so we worked this out. But I mean it has me scratching my head a bit and wondering, all this talk about outfitters hurting, do you guys want us there or not? Do you want our custom or not? For most of us who live in states that are not MN, WI or IL, it is “a very big deal” to get to the Boundary Waters with canoe and gear every year—often more than once a year. It is expensive and it is logistically challenging during a period of high uncertainty and it is time consuming. The local MN economy is hurting, the BW are under threat, there have been many appeals for visitors to keep visiting, and we are still coming. So please greet us with a smile. Is that too much to ask? Because we are coming to you with a smile.

Bottom line business owners: please don’t send random cancellation letters (based on incorrect information) to customers rushing around planning our imminent travel when you actually have not heard from us that we are canceling our visit to you. These letters cause more uncertainty and unnecessary stress for us.

Looking to the days that remain this season, I’m posting this comment so that other members, paddlers and visitors can brace for a “welcome” that may (in spite of the record heat) be cooler than expected… and perhaps that is to be expected … long term, though, imm a bit concerned that this vibe may not result in the levels of patronage that local businesses owners may be hoping for.

Members maybe talk to the local business owners you know and gently pass along this message from a loyal customer. If you don’t want visitors, close your business. If you do want visitors, please do better than what I just had to deal with today.

LaVirginienne: "Adding to this thread a detail about the chaos we’re experiencing as visitors. I won’t name names, but a few days ago (maybe as long ago as one week?) I placed a call to the place where we plan to stay before entry. I had to leave a message, so I sent messages of love and support and stated clearly that whatever happened with our OP permit, we would absolutely be there as planned. We would spend money as planned. We looked forward to seeing them and wished them the best in the meantime.


Now mind you, my permit for August 3 has still NOT in fact been cancelled on recreation.gov. The permit is live. I check it hourly. No cancellation, no refund.


But today I get a generic cancellation notice from the local business about our stay. Now I have to call the local business and say, um, i am your friendly and loyal customer, did you not listen to my message a few days ago? I get that things are stressed for property owners managing possible evacuation orders and prep etc, but I got pushback over the phone to the effect that “your permit has been cancelled.” And this was incorrect. So I said, “but it hasn’t. And until I receive that refund, I can’t book another entry date if something comes up, so I am just as frustrated about what “cancellation” means as you are. But whatever is happening with my canceled permit, I am still honoring my commitment to you. And even if my permit has been canceled, the whole point is, we are still coming to support you!”


I have to admit, the response I got was .… a bunch of excuses that amounted to: well everything is chaotic …. And literally not even an apology for randomly cancelling my reservation on bad information without listening to voice messages or checking my with me. Ok … so we worked this out. But I mean it has me scratching my head a bit and wondering, all this talk about outfitters hurting, do you guys want us there or not? Do you want our custom or not? For most of us who live in states that are not MN, WI or IL, it is “a very big deal” to get to the Boundary Waters with canoe and gear every year—often more than once a year. It is expensive and it is logistically challenging during a period of high uncertainty and it is time consuming. The local MN economy is hurting, the BW are under threat, there have been many appeals for visitors to keep visiting, and we are still coming. So please greet us with a smile. Is that too much to ask? Because we are coming to you with a smile.


Bottom line business owners: please don’t send random cancellation letters (based on incorrect information) to customers rushing around planning our imminent travel when you actually have not heard from us that we are canceling our visit to you. These letters cause more uncertainty and unnecessary stress for us.


Looking to the days that remain this season, I’m posting this comment so that other members, paddlers and visitors can brace for a “welcome” that may (in spite of the record heat) be cooler than expected… and perhaps that is to be expected … long term, though, imm a bit concerned that this vibe may not result in the levels of patronage that local businesses owners may be hoping for.


Members maybe talk to the local business owners you know and gently pass along this message from a loyal customer. If you don’t want visitors, close your business. If you do want visitors, please do better than what I just had to deal with today. "

Sorry you had to deal with this - can imagine how frustrated you were.

Thankfully, we had the opposite experience. I called our outfitter and asked for their gut feel on whether or not our Aug 28 entry would go ahead and what they would suggest for a backup plan. They were transparent on their views and willing to help us find a plan B if we didn't have any clarity in the next two weeks. I would guess most outfitters fall into this bucket and that you may have just caught them on an off day. I would maintain your outlook on supporting local businesses as keeping those communities afloat far outweighs a single negative interaction.

Thanks for this super nice reply. Great message! Yep must have been a bad day. I promise I will stay positive.

I like that your outfitter offered to render Plan B advisory services etc. Nice, and also adaptive & creative!

paddlindrew: "

LaVirginienne: "Adding to this thread a detail about the chaos we’re experiencing as visitors. I won’t name names, but a few days ago (maybe as long ago as one week?) I placed a call to the place where we plan to stay before entry. I had to leave a message, so I sent messages of love and support and stated clearly that whatever happened with our OP permit, we would absolutely be there as planned. We would spend money as planned. We looked forward to seeing them and wished them the best in the meantime.



Now mind you, my permit for August 3 has still NOT in fact been cancelled on recreation.gov. The permit is live. I check it hourly. No cancellation, no refund.



But today I get a generic cancellation notice from the local business about our stay. Now I have to call the local business and say, um, i am your friendly and loyal customer, did you not listen to my message a few days ago? I get that things are stressed for property owners managing possible evacuation orders and prep etc, but I got pushback over the phone to the effect that “your permit has been cancelled.” And this was incorrect. So I said, “but it hasn’t. And until I receive that refund, I can’t book another entry date if something comes up, so I am just as frustrated about what “cancellation” means as you are. But whatever is happening with my canceled permit, I am still honoring my commitment to you. And even if my permit has been canceled, the whole point is, we are still coming to support you!”



I have to admit, the response I got was .… a bunch of excuses that amounted to: well everything is chaotic …. And literally not even an apology for randomly cancelling my reservation on bad information without listening to voice messages or checking my with me. Ok … so we worked this out. But I mean it has me scratching my head a bit and wondering, all this talk about outfitters hurting, do you guys want us there or not? Do you want our custom or not? For most of us who live in states that are not MN, WI or IL, it is “a very big deal” to get to the Boundary Waters with canoe and gear every year—often more than once a year. It is expensive and it is logistically challenging during a period of high uncertainty and it is time consuming. The local MN economy is hurting, the BW are under threat, there have been many appeals for visitors to keep visiting, and we are still coming. So please greet us with a smile. Is that too much to ask? Because we are coming to you with a smile.



Bottom line business owners: please don’t send random cancellation letters (based on incorrect information) to customers rushing around planning our imminent travel when you actually have not heard from us that we are canceling our visit to you. These letters cause more uncertainty and unnecessary stress for us.



Looking to the days that remain this season, I’m posting this comment so that other members, paddlers and visitors can brace for a “welcome” that may (in spite of the record heat) be cooler than expected… and perhaps that is to be expected … long term, though, imm a bit concerned that this vibe may not result in the levels of patronage that local businesses owners may be hoping for.



Members maybe talk to the local business owners you know and gently pass along this message from a loyal customer. If you don’t want visitors, close your business. If you do want visitors, please do better than what I just had to deal with today. "

Sorry you had to deal with this - can imagine how frustrated you were.


Thankfully, we had the opposite experience. I called our outfitter and asked for their gut feel on whether or not our Aug 28 entry would go ahead and what they would suggest for a backup plan. They were transparent on their views and willing to help us find a plan B if we didn't have any clarity in the next two weeks. I would guess most outfitters fall into this bucket and that you may have just caught them on an off day. I would maintain your outlook on supporting local businesses as keeping those communities afloat far outweighs a single negative interaction."