BWCA Outer stems necessary? Boundary Waters Group Forum: Boat Builders and Repair
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      Outer stems necessary?     

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Red Beard
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07/26/2010 08:04AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Hey guys. Wondering what peoples opinions are on outer stems? Are they that important? How many have build a canoe without them and how has it worked out?

I am building with inner stems but am debating whether or not to use outer stems. This is my first canoe and I can't decided one way or another. If I go without, am I really comprising the integrity and durability of my canoe? I Think I like the look with no outer stems but have not seen enough canoes too know for sure.

Thanks for any opinions.
 
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07/26/2010 06:15PM  
It depends on the technique. If you do an interlocking technique for the strips, then you don't need an outer stem. However, if you simply butt the end of the strips, then you need an outer stem for integrity.

Many believe that the interlocking strips (also known as the Minnesota technique) is stronger and has better water integrity than using an outer stem.
 
Cedarboy
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07/26/2010 07:37PM  
Agree with Bannocks comments. I have used the MN interlocking tech on all my boats without issue. Also saves wt.
CB
 
HighPlainsDrifter
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07/26/2010 09:59PM  

I sure like the look of a canoe that has an outer stem and I will do an outer stem on mine.

By the way, in our class at North House we used 2 methods to bend the the stem laminates....... onthe stern we bent the outer over the inner before laying up the hull planks...... worked ok, but still tricky to get and exact match up of the outer over the inner.

In the 2nd method, we bent the laminates over the finished (and shaped bow (which had an inner stem). The laminate sandwich was richly layered with System 3 epoxy (with filler) between laminates........ amazingly simple and easy to bend.

 
woodcanoe
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08/03/2010 08:34AM  
The outer stems are not necessary. They do provide harmony on the appearance of the canoe. They are nice when installing brass stem band on the ends. They are aesthetically pleasing to the eye. But you do not need to install them, specially on your first canoe. IMO they serve no further structural integrity to the canoe.

They can be very tricky to install. I've built more than 80 cedar canoes and still find them to be the hardest part of the stripping process. If you choose to install them, make the inner and outer stems at the same time on your jig. One on top of the other. Separate them with wax paper so when the glue or epoxy cures you can separate them.

If you feel skilled and really want them, go for it but allow plenty of time to sand, bevel and cut away the wood over the inner stem to allow the outer stem to fit right on top of it.

Tom
 
Red Beard
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08/05/2010 03:32PM  
Thanks guys. O.K.... now I have another question. If I use the MN interlocking technique, can I still install a brass stem band? I really like the look these give a canoe.

Woodcanoe's comment leads me to believe that installing them on a canoe with no outer stem is not possible. Or at least would be difficult.
 
08/05/2010 04:26PM  
quote Red Beard: " Woodcanoe's comment leads me to believe that installing them on a canoe with no outer stem is not possible. Or a least would be difficult. "


I would say that is true. You could probably do it, but having an outer stem would be better, IMHO.
 
opolka
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03/12/2015 11:09PM  
I know this thread is old. But it fits the topic.

I'm will be using stems on my build (I just like the look). My questions are, would cedar strips for inner and redwood strips for outer be acceptable. (if so how many strips do you guys use per stem piece). And second, do I need to use epoxy to laminate them, or could I use wood glue? If epoxy, do you just use the same as for the hull and glass, or is any epoxy fine for this application?
 
1JimD
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03/13/2015 05:39AM  
I highly recommend stemless, or the Minnesota method. Most plans can easily adapted to it.
Saves a lot of work ! And I believe it's stronger.
If you like the looks, you could add a fake stem to the stemless technic.

If I failed to convince you ? Most stems are built with hardwood, such as Ash, Maple, or even Oak. Thus steam bending is necessary.

Good luck !

Jim
 
Alan Gage
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03/13/2015 08:41AM  
My first few builds were stemless and on the boat I'm working out now I decided to try stems, but a single (internal) stem only. I think it looks nicer (I tapered it) but it certainly is more work only to gain some aesthetics. In some ways I think using an external stem as well would have made it simpler.

As far as what wood to make them with cedar common fine for the internal stem while hardwoods are preferred for the external. That being said I agree that the external stem really doesn't play any part in the structural integrity of the hull so you can make it out of whatever you want. In stemless construction you have cedar at the leading edge of the hull and no one seems to have problems with it so there's no reason your outer stem couldn't be cedar (or whatever else you want) as well.

The nice thing, and the frustrating thing, about building cedar strip canoes is that there are lots of ways to do each step and none of them are right or wrong.

Alan
 
tumblehome
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03/13/2015 06:14PM  
You do not need to steam hardwood stems. Just cut the pieces thin. 1/8" thick ash will bend without steam.

You can use any wood you want. Hardwood or softwood. It doesn't matter.

If you use a brittle wood like maple, you can soak them overnight in the bathtub and then bend them on the jig. Let them sit for some time on the jig to dry out before you epoxy them together.

Tom
 
HighPlainsDrifter
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03/15/2015 08:18PM  
quote opolka: "I know this thread is old. But it fits the topic.


I'm will be using stems on my build (I just like the look). My questions are, would cedar strips for inner and redwood strips for outer be acceptable. (if so how many strips do you guys use per stem piece). And second, do I need to use epoxy to laminate them, or could I use wood glue? If epoxy, do you just use the same as for the hull and glass, or is any epoxy fine for this application? "


First: Good that you are using stems. They will give your canoe a classic look and they don't add that much weight.

*Cedar vs redwood. I have heard that redwood can be difficult to bend because it is brittle. Anyway, convention calls for hardwood on the outer and softwood on the inner. You will be beveling that inner stem and softwood with straight grain will make your job easier plus softwood accepts a staple easily.

*Laminate strips can be 1/8 - 1/4. I have used both. Choose stock with a straight grain. Fewer laminates also reduce the work gluing them up.

*Use thickened epoxy to glue the laminates. Use the same epoxy that you will be using on the glass and many other gluing jobs on the canoe. Typically the epoxy is thickened with wood flour. Remember to glue up your inner and outer stems at the same time and remember to put a layer of packing tape between the inner and outer stems.

Good luck
 
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