BWCA Rillers and brushes and binders, Oh My! A little help? Boundary Waters Group Forum: XC Ski
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      Rillers and brushes and binders, Oh My! A little help?     

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plaid wool
senior member (99)senior membersenior member
  
12/09/2010 09:35PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
I know it's probably second nature to some of you long time Nordic skiers who know this waxing stuff inside and out, but the more I look into waxing the more complicated it becomes. I am planning on getting a new pair of waxable skis, do you recommend putting on a base coat of of base prep wax before placing glide wax and grip wax on? I see "structure" rollers in catalogs, do these imprint a pattern in the wax or in the base itself? There are several types of brushes available, do I need to use these? I understand using a cork and scraper, but this other stuff is pretty mysterious to an Iowa boy with no access to a real ski shop.

I don't plan on racing, I just want to ride a well tuned ski.

Thanks in advance,

PW
 
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12/09/2010 10:33PM  
the more I look into waxing the more complicated it becomes.
PW"


Exactly!

Good waxing info

The theory behind repeated glide waxing of new skis is to "open the base" allowing the base to hold more wax for longer. I don't have the patience to wax a new pair 10 times before hitting the snow so I wax with plentiful base prep, reheating the ski (dripping more wax if necessary) and allowing it to cool numerous times, scrape, brush and then hit it with the day's glide wax. Since the new ski doesn't hold onto the wax as well as a well used and waxed ski I just wax it nearly every outing until it begins to hold on to the wax (the base holds its shine with no dull spots).

I don't race either, but I am a huge fan of the glide....
 
gbusk
distinguished member(2077)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
12/09/2010 10:39PM  
I'm not sure where you live, but it sounds like you would really enjoy one of the free waxing clinics that most Nordic ski shops offer.

I have attended one so far and I really enjoyed it. I had already learned most of what they had to say from Internet research, but it was nice to learn that I am doing it correctly.

The rilling tools I believe impart additional structure to the base of the ski, and when you wax the next time, this structure is removed by the heat of the iron and only the stone ground structure remains.

I understand that rilling tools add additional structure which decreases adhesion (suction) during warmer conditions. Adhesion, commonly referred to as suction is called wet friction, and increased structure decreases adhesion. Adhesion I guess comes from a layer of water formed between the ski base and the groomed ski trail.

I hope this helps.
 
Merlin
distinguished member (377)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
12/10/2010 06:47PM  
Let me start by saying I am a complete novice. As I plan to start skiing again after a 30 year lay off, I have, however, been trying to learn as much as possible about waxing skis. While I have no personal experience about how effective waxing is, I do know that I am beginning to question the conventional wisdom of glide waxing. I read about oxidation and pores and opening the base. Since modern skis are made of HDPE all of that has to be a myth, doesn't it.

Again, I am not in the position to question whether or not a properly waxed ski is faster than a non waxed ski (although there is evidence that it is also a myth). If a glide waxed ski is faster, it must be for other reasons than filling open pores and preventing oxidation. I use HDPE for toboggans. They are about as slippery as imaginable without any wax at all. If HDPE is used for chemical resistant containers, how can we be worried about it oxidizing in air?

I think I am going to start out following the advice of Dave's Nordic Backcountry Skiing page and skip glide wax altogether...
"To put things into perspective, it should be noted that the idea of a wax-pocket is something of a recent historical development. Prior to modern, high-cambered xc race skis, kick wax was generally applied to the full length of the ski. If you take today's xc race wax advice at face value, you will get the impression that kick wax drags like a boat anchor. And to be sure, in competitions where results are determined by fractions of a second, worrying about this makes sense. But many folks are surprised to find out that well chosen kick wax will glide just fine. While a ski with kick wax applied tip to tail might not run as fast as a racing ski, it will run faster than most any no-wax ski while providing better grip." DAVE'S NORDIC BACKCOUNTRY SKIING PAGE
 
tremolo
distinguished member(1775)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
12/10/2010 07:25PM  
Merlin
I read a similar article in The Economist Magazine

I dont spend time on the the complicated base waxing ritual. No patience, and my skis work great with one base wax application at the start of the season. Or not. I took mine out of storage and didnt bother with the base wax this season. I was feeling that maybe I should, but maybe not.
 
12/10/2010 07:34PM  
Merlin-

I agree the theory of pores and oxidation sounds like complete hokum. Probably is. I do know that an appropriately waxed ski glides better than one that is not- this is very apparent on skis in cold temps when the snow is abrasive. I also know that skis that have been waxed often retain wax longer.


One possibility to consider is that it is not the wax that makes the ski faster, but the process of waxing that structures the base to create a faster ski.

Who knows? I do know that if I don't melt some very hard wax into my bases tonight the skis won't move at all in the sub-zero snow I'll be facing in the morning.
 
12/11/2010 12:24AM  
slap some kick wax on under your feet, cork it in (or rub with a gloved hand), you're good to go. It's kind of like fishing with a cane pole and some worms vs. a Sage 3w fly rod and hexnymph- both work.
Can't wait to get home- leaving London in 7 hours and anxious to see all the snow (although I'll be surprised if I get to see it today-sounds like it's going to be pretty rough at MSP later today).
 
gbusk
distinguished member(2077)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
12/11/2010 04:22AM  
Don't worry too much about the wax, however it does make the ski glide faster and further.

That being said, I have a friend who is a strong skier, on skate skies he will be a mile ahead of me all day long on his old skis that I believe have never been waxed.

I would just go somewhere like REI and pick up a can tin of paste wax and just rub it into the tips and tails of your skis. It costs about 10 bucks and is all that you will need.
 
plaid wool
senior member (99)senior membersenior member
  
12/11/2010 10:53AM  
Guys and Gals:

Thanks for all of the replies, I am learning a lot from the recommendations you all have provided. I am sure I will fall in between the spectrum of the hyper critical racer and guy who never does anything to his skis. I enjoy working with the minute details of many things in life such as tying flies, but I still appreciate the simplicity of a cane pole.

Again, I appreciate the advice, it's fun to learn the details from an experienced bunch. What a cool sport.

PW
 
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