I want an ultra light down sleeping bag that will keep me toasty @ zero degrees. It needs to pack down to almost nothing, and weigh less than three pounds. I have found many that fit my needs, and they all cost around $400 to $700. I've been trying for about a year and I just cannot justify that.

After looking into making my own, I decided that a project of that caliber is a bit too much for me considering I have never sewn anything in my life.

I am considering cutting small holes in the baffles of the cheap sleeping bag that I own, removing the existing fill, and replacing it with 800 fill down. I figure if it works, I have a $500 sleeping bag for about $80.

Has anyone ever done this before?

OK so let's see. Feathered Friends makes a 0 degree bag that weighs 2 lbs 13 oz and you want to take a cheap bag and stuff it yourself and make a bag in that weight category.
Weight is not just in the fill but in all the materials that make up the bag. If you take a cheap bag and fill it with expensive materials you'll end up with a cheap bag filled with expensive materials.
Either buy a good bag or learn to make a good bag.

I got my Marmot Couloir for just over 200, its a long and normally would be 450 so if you look around you will find what you are looking for. Don't be cheap though if you need the bag you will have to pony up the money. You will waste 50 bucks then still have to spend 500. The other thing to consider is do you really need a bag that demanding. Is a lb worth 200 extra.

My advice is to save enough money and buy one that is professionally made. That's why they are in business.

I would say "no" but im sure somebody somewhere has tried it. I haven't. I'd keep my eye on clearances & other specials in the area. Those $400-$700 bags get returned at times, and are re-sold for half price... couple that with a coupon and a rebate ... and *presto* you get it down to something manageable.

As far as making your own, go get'em! I'm into 'home-made' projects. Nothin' wrong with making your own sleeping bag! you just won't have an accurate way to rate it.

Hi RM,
Another thought. To get a quality down bag for less money than you now can afford or are willing to spend consider a bag that doesn't strictly fit your weight specifications but still gives good performance. We purchased Campmor 0 degree bags two seasons ago on sale and consider them to be a lot of bag for the money. We are pleased with them. We did washed them ourselves and ended up purchasing silicone spike dryer balls to get the loft back to optimum. While over 3lbs. they are occasionally on sale for between $149.00 to $159.00. The best, no. Very good, yes. Probably the same reason I will never buy a Mercedes.

Just a thought.
Boppa

I purchased my Campmor brand 0 and 20 degree semi-rectangular down bags some 12 years ago now. They were very reasonably priced, and have held up well. I encourage you to check out their website and see if they are what you're looking for.

quote Amok: "I would say "no" but im sure somebody somewhere has tried it. I haven't. I'd keep my eye on clearances & other specials in the area. Those $400-$700 bags get returned at times, and are re-sold for half price... couple that with a coupon and a rebate ... and *presto* you get it down to something manageable.


As far as making your own, go get'em! I'm into 'home-made' projects. Nothin' wrong with making your own sleeping bag! you just won't have an accurate way to rate it. "

That's exactly how I got my Marmot CWM EQ -40 bag! Even got the long which I need.

Thrifty outfitters already had it marked down 50% couple that with my birthday coupon and an additional ongoing sale at the time of purchase.... I got a $700 top-of-the-line bag for what alot of summer bags cost. Needless to say I was/am ecstatic over that purchase.

Obviously luck played a large role. But if you check those type of places every so often maybe lightening will strike?

TB

I'd say it won't work because what makes 800 fill down warmer than 600 fill down is that it lofts higher. The cheap bag probably won't allow the 800 fill down to fully loft, so it'll be no warmer than the 600 fill down. That would just make it a big waste of money. If it didn't need to loft to keep you warm, you wouldn't need a pad underneath to insulate you from the cold ground.

quote boonie: "I'd say it won't work because what makes 800 fill down warmer than 600 fill down is that it lofts higher. The cheap bag probably won't allow the 800 fill down to fully loft, so it'll be no warmer than the 600 fill down. That would just make it a big waste of money. If it didn't need to loft to keep you warm, you wouldn't need a pad underneath to insulate you from the cold ground."

Good point Boonie. That's one of the hurdles I've considered after posting this and looking really hard at my bag. It looks like most of the nicer bags I've looked at have about 6 inches of loft, and it doesn't look like the baffles in the bag I'm attempting to Frankenstein will allow that much loft. I'm still tempted to see what kind of an upgrade if any I could get with replacing the fill in my bag.

I've made three down bags from scratch because I couldn't find what I wanted available on the market, so I can appreciate the urge to make your own. However, the chance that you could fill a cheap bag with top quality down and get a 0 degree bag that weighs 3 lbs is slim to none. As pointed out above, the loft designed into the bag would have to be correct. The materials would have to be downproof, and the baffles would have to be ultra light weight to keep the weight under 3 lbs. Lastly, 800 loft down is very expensive, and you would need at least 2 lbs.

Do yourself a favor and buy a quality bag on sale.

YES! someone who has made their own sleeping bag!!!!!

Thanks, Canoekev!

Tuscarora Borealis,

My "cold weather" bag is a Big Agnes that was used, during the REI scratch-n-dent sale one spring.

I don't remember what original price was, probably $160 or so. I bought it for $75 for a friend who told me that he was interested in this bag (hence, the long size). Well, long story short, it's now MY bag. The only thing I don't like about it, is that I belive the zipper's on the wrong side.

My other bag is a Wenger 2 lb. biker bag, similar to this one. I picked it up at Fleet Farm for under $20 bucks.

so for about $105, I am set up for whatever weather I will be experiencing.

Is it ULTRALIGHT? no. Is it OVERWEIGHT? once more, no. a 2 lb. bag and a 3lb 11oz. bag are not excessive for their ratings.

KEEP LOOKIN' and find something that works. It doesn't have to be the 'best of the best', it just needs to be something that you will use.

I know, this doesn't help ya with the ultra-light sleeping bag issue. If I had the $$$, I'd buy this Marmot .

HEY ! I JUST NOTICED THAT SUCKER'S ON SERIOUS SALE!!!!!!!!!!!

These guys have some nice bgs on sale, I have bought quite a bit from them in the past, not affiliated with them but was looking for a kids bag for my grandson and thought I would pass along.
SunCatcher

Campsaver

Everyone here has given good advice. I was looking for the same thing this time last year. I ended up buying a heavier bag than I wanted (600 fill vs. 800 fill), but saved hundreds of dollars in doing so. I ended up selecting the Marmot Never Summer (4lbs.)and got it on sale at Sunny Sports for a little less than $200. Weight was less of a concern for me than saving a few hundred $$. To get a 2lb. bag that will keep you warm you'll have to go 800 fill and that costs much more. Western Mountaineering has great bags, Marmot, The North Face, Big Agnes, Mountain Hardware, Sierra Design, Kelty, Campmor all make good bags. Do your research and look for sales.

quote talusman: "OK so let's see. Feathered Friends makes a 0 degree bag that weighs 2 lbs 13 oz and you want to take a cheap bag and stuff it yourself and make a bag in that weight category.
Weight is not just in the fill but in all the materials that make up the bag. If you take a cheap bag and fill it with expensive materials you'll end up with a cheap bag filled with expensive materials.
Either buy a good bag or learn to make a good bag.
"

I respectfully disagree. The fill in some of the nicest down bags makes up about 60% of the bags total weight. In synthetic bags the fill can be as much as 74% of the bags total weight. A nylon shell is a nylon shell, and a zipper is a zipper, I think you would be shaving fractions of ounces by switching out these materials for something lighter. It seems to me that the number one factor that affects the weight, warmth and price of bag is the fill.

quote CanoeKev: "I've made three down bags from scratch because I couldn't find what I wanted available on the market, so I can appreciate the urge to make your own. However, the chance that you could fill a cheap bag with top quality down and get a 0 degree bag that weighs 3 lbs is slim to none. As pointed out above, the loft designed into the bag would have to be correct. The materials would have to be downproof, and the baffles would have to be ultra light weight to keep the weight under 3 lbs. Lastly, 800 loft down is very expensive, and you would need at least 2 lbs.


Do yourself a favor and buy a quality bag on sale."

What is "downproof"? I have not looked into that, I assume you mean a material that doesn't allow the down to "leak".

hahaha. Good luck with "downproof". I don't think it exists! lol

Rich, if you had any experience sewing I might say go for it. But you stated you don't really have the expertise. For that reason I say look for sales from places like the discounters like Campmor or similar places. To be honest, if you are the type of camper that camps in the off season I could see your reason for a really good bag.

If you are a true cold weather camper such as winter camping I think you should reconsider your thought of only one bag. For winter camping I use 2 sleeping bags (1 warmer bag inside a colder weather bag) so the weight savings and the price are not as big a thing.

In winter I prefer a synthetic bag because moisture is a big issue. For me it's easier to dry a synthetic bag than a down bag. I'm sure other guys have different opinions on winter sleeping.

My opinion and my 2 cents worth.

quote izzy: "My advice is to save enough money and buy one that is professionally made. That's why they are in business. "

I must agree. (After years of trying to get around it) Cheap AND Light are very rare. I picked up a Marmot Lithium 0 at REI attic sale for 125. Zipper was stuck and after 30 minutes of hell I got it fixed with only a pinhole for damge. Hot bag, but cheapest I see them is 350 or better and I still think they are 3+ lbs. I'd save up and look for a deal.

Down Bags

quote Rich Mahogony: "


What is "downproof"? I have not looked into that, I assume you mean a material that doesn't allow the down to "leak"."

Yes. Downproof material will not permit the down pods to poke through. Most ripstop nylon is downproof, but not all nylon material is. For example, you could not take the filling out of a synthetic bag and expect the material to be downproof - it might be, or it might not.

"considering I have never sewn anything in my life"

The seams and stitching are also leak points in a down bag. Most of the down leakage from my BA Lost Ranger (first generation, newer models seem much better) is from seams.

butthead

Just because one has never done something does not necessarily mean they suck at it. He may be the best seamster(? lol) alive with unknown potential !!!

quote butthead: ""considering I have never sewn anything in my life"


The seams and stitching are also leak points in a down bag. Most of the down leakage from my BA Lost Ranger (first generation, newer models seem much better) is from seams.


butthead"

I was aware of leakage along seams and stitching. You can use different sticthes and thread to prevent this. I can only assume that reading what some guy wrote about said stitches and thread on the internet makes me pretty much an expert on downproofing my seams.

I'm a hardcore cheapskate and bargain hunter. Rarely ever pay full price for anything. However, over the years I've learned that one of the most important things on any trip is the ability to be warm and comfortable enough to get a good night's sleep. It's one of the few things I've found worth saving up the extra money for, and paying full price if necessary.

I was looking for something only slightly different than you, good down bag rated at +15 or better, less than 3 lbs, that packs up very small. I narrowed my search down to 2 bags, Marmot Helium or Western Mountaineering Apache, both priced around $400. I think if you look at whatever bags are similar but go down to 0 or -5 or so, you'd be very happy with them.

Then keep your eyes open while you save up. I ended up picking up a Marmot Pinnacle (6 oz heavier than the Helium, but 5 degrees warmer at a tested 10 degrees) for about $100 off the normal price at the CampSaver.com site that SunCatcher linked to. Strangely enough, a few weeks later I came across a Western Mountaineering Alpinlite 20 degree bag on Craigslist that I picked up for the ridiculously cheap price of $75.

Pick out the bags, start setting the cash aside, then keep your eyes open and see what happens. Usually works out really well.

If you go the other route, might want to check into rainypass.com, which is a highly recommended place for repair, modification or cleaning of gear. They can professionally re-loft or stuff a bag for you.

I am apparently wrong on the 'downproof' deal. Ty for the clarification :)

I have modified two sleeping bags, exactly as you are interested in. I had down from two coats that bit the dust, and I cut them up, sorted the down, and recycled it, modifing two bags. The first was the campmor 20 degree bag, which in reality, is a warm 30 degree bag to begin with, IMO. But added 4 ounces of down to the bag, some in each baffle, and now it is a warm 15 degree bag. Not a problem, time consuming, but worth it, and low/no cost because I had the down.

PM me if you want to see how to do it, if you go this way.

The second was a high end Montbell, ULSS #2, rated for 25, which had some underfilled pockets. Now it is 10-15 degree bag.

The campmor, while inexpensive, is not light. Light comes from 800 fp and new, lightweight shells. I would agree with others, look around, you might find something reasonable, given a lot of looking, and striking fast when you find something.

I would also not trust the campmor one for true 0 degree rating.

Trust no ratings! lol Those sneaky bastards! Always thinkin' they're cooler than they really are!

I just can't see the need for the top of the line specs, but the willingness to jerry rig a bag. The down alone is 128.00 a pound

http://www.sevenwondersdown.com/Products.html


For just the cost of putting down in the cheap bag you could find a good bag on sale or get the next steep down for full cost.
I got my marmot that meets your specs for 230.


I will say I have high end bags and cheap bags and there is a huge difference in the nylon the high end 0 has very lightweight but strong nylon. Where the cheap 25 down has heavy nylon that snags some and is not really "down proof".

In my opinion if you feel you need the light warm bag for you type of tripping, but its ok to have jerry rigged bag, you probably don't really need the lighter bag.

I have always found with gear its lighter on my back but lighter in my wallet as well. If I'm willing to carry extra weight I get a heavier wallet as well its all a choice.

These aren't "cheap", but here are 4 good quality down sleeping bag deals: North Face Superlight , Marmot Lithium , Marmot Never Summer , Marmot Couloir_

Photoguy190 - I will have to double check, I might be mistaken, but I believe I have found 800 fill down for $80 a pound.

Another thing to consider is this - how good is the bag you have as far as other features. It's not just the fill that makes a high end bag warm - there's the trim cut (less space to heat), the good draft tube and draft collar and the good hood that cinches up tight. The lighter weight shell material also allows the down to fully loft as well as being lighter. And if the outer shell is not cut 5 inches larger than the inner, then the down can't loft 5 inches, which is what makes it warmer.

quote boonie: "Another thing to consider is this - how good is the bag you have as far as other features. It's not just the fill that makes a high end bag warm - there's the trim cut (less space to heat), the good draft tube and draft collar and the good hood that cinches up tight. The lighter weight shell material also allows the down to fully loft as well as being lighter. And if the outer shell is not cut 5 inches larger than the inner, then the down can't loft 5 inches, which is what makes it warmer. "

The bag I have does have a comfortably trim cut, a good draft tube, a good draft collar, and a cozy hood. You mentioned the baffle size earlier, and I have thought about it. Although I might not be able to get six or seven inches of loft, I am convinced I can greatly increase the temp rating of my bag while decreasing it's weight and pack size.

Rich

I'm not saying at all to not try I think its a great thing to make gear. I'm curious why does it need to be under 3lbs. If money wasn't an issue I would say buy the bag you want and make another and compare. Even 160 is a lot to waste on a bag that may or may not work out. One of your seems rip out and you lose a lot of down and are in a word of pain. They say buy nice or buy twice. My concern with this project is you will make it and one season latter buy the expensive bag. Maybe you should experiment first with cheaper down. Most of all have fun and stay warm.

a good place to look or deals is geartrade.com

it's mostly backcountry.com and steepandcheap.com returns

I know its not a 0 deg bag, but here's a good deal on geartrade.com marmot down bag

Nice deal, MWD!

Rich,

You will note that most even very high end true 0 degree bags are right around 3#. It would be good for you to figure out how much down your bag has now, if possible. That way you can look at other bags, figure out how much you need to add, roughly, and then divide that by how many compartments, plus hood and draft collar you want to modify, and put in the correct amount in each tube. I would put down in the top of the collar and the hood. If your bag has the features of a 0, as noted, then I think it is perfect for some down adjustments, if you want to go that way.

Does it have continuous baffles, that go all the way around the bag? If not, you will want to add the down just on the top of the bag, IMO.


That never summer bag mc2 uncovered is a good deal, IMO, for your situation. 650 down, not real light, but light in the wallet for what you get.

You could troll Steep and Cheap until you find something there. Might work, might not.

steep and cheap

Rich,

You certainly have my curiosity piqued and it seems from buz's experience that you might gain a few degrees of warmth and save a couple of ounces, but it sounds doubtful that you'd have a bag that's toasty at zero degrees and weighs less than three pounds. It seems that all the bags that match your specs use close to 2 lbs of the down. That's about $150 you'd have invested in it, assuming you can get certified 800-fill down for $80 per lb, plus some time. But Buz just added some down he had, he didn't replace the insulation in them with 2 lbs of 800-fill down. I'd be afraid that I'd end up with a bag that wasn't quite as warm, not quite as light, not quite as good, and only a little less expensive than I could have bought on sale - like some of the deals listed here.

quote buz: "Rich,

That never summer bag mc2 uncovered is a good deal, IMO, for your situation. 650 down, not real light, but light in the wallet for what you get.

"

That is the bag I got myself and I am happy with it. I really wanted a Western Mountaineering bag but couldn't come to terms with the cost. I settled for another pound at half the price. Slept in it a few times last winter - coldest temp was 5 deg. F and the bag kept me warm. Will try it again this year, beginning next weekend in my new quinzee.

Might be worth looking at good ol craigslist. I found this one in the Twin Cities area that for the price seems solid. I thought of getting it myself, but I have way too many bags already. I guess it was handmade in CO.

Gerry 5 deg down bag

Boonie and Rich,

My sorted down I would guess was/is around that 800 number because it has nothing but down in it. My Montbell bag is 800 to start with, the Campmor like 600. I would estimate I added at least 10 degrees of warmth conserveitively to each, more like 15+. I have slept in my Montbell in the 8-10 degree range more than once in just light long underwear, wool socks, and light hat, toasty, and it started out as a 25 degree bag.

It has approx. 21 ounces of down in it, to get to 0 you need about 28-32 ounces of 800 fp,depending on bag size, which is in most good bags with that rating.

650 fp you would need 32 ounces plus, depending on bag size.

I would not advocate removing and totally replacing, just adding to what you got.

I see REI has a 0 degree Kelty for $160 - $170. The long Lost Ranger... I mean the Lost Ranger in a long bag is $170.00 too. I just have problem with no insulation below me since the cold ground can be worse than the cold air in my opinion.

That's what this is for :)

quote Amok: "That's what this is for :) "

What happens when that fails two days into a 14 day trip?

Rich M. I think you are perfectly capable of making a good down bag. My problem is the fact that my time is worth more to me than the cost of buying one. If you have the skills and the time then you go girl!

quote nctry: "

quote Amok: "That's what this is for :) "

What happens when that fails two days into a 14 day trip?"

never had a failure, and there is a patch kit. it stays with my tent repair kit. May as well ask me what happens when you break a tent pole...

Oh dear, the gear trade web site looks like a place I could drop many a coin... (exped synmat there now for anyone interested) and the Mpls CL post about a down bag will be hard to resist. That looks like a great place to start for a down bag - or even to buy it FOR the down!!

Admittedly, I've lugged a huge warm sleeping bag around for years (rectangular and LONG). I stay toasty with exped under me, and three kids around me, but the thing is huge and heavy.

Following this thread with interest - please keep it updated with whatever you end up doing!

Sadly, my experiment failed before it even got off of the ground. I may be showing my ignorance here, but I assumed that the horizontal stitching on my synthetic bag indicated internal baffles. Turns out, it is just a sheet of fabric stiched to the shell and another sheet stitched to the lining. I would have to sew baffles into my bag, which I'm not sure I have the skills to do.

I'm still willing to try this with a cheap down bag from CL or a garage sale sometime in the future. Or better yet, somebody here try it and let me know how easy it was and how awesome your bag is!

I took a couple of shots of my modifications. 2 bags, the modification went like this for both:

Down from dead jackets, sorted thru, feathers removed, very high quality. I used a hollow tube, actually a piece of plastic that goes in your gutter, and then a gutter nail goes thru it, it holds the gutter, anyway, about 1/2" id x 5" long. Then find a rammer that can push the down out of tube into bag. This makes the slit cuts small, and no mess with the down.

I used needle nose pliers to grab down, ram into tube until full. This is working in a large paper bag full of down. Use paper not plastic, down sticks to plastic bag, not paper. And paper breathes, you can close/open bag easily without making mess.

Push tube into slit cut, use rammer to push down into bag, scotch tape hole, manipulate down, figure out if you need another tube, repeat as needed. Leave scotch tape on all holes until done, it stays fine, and you can look at whole project to see if done right, before sewing up.

Sew up slit, then I add seam grip to the repair, and I believe the repair is at least as strong as the bag prior.

The mod was simpler for the campmor bag. No ripstop nylon, cut wherever you wanted. Campmor bags have continuous baffles, meaning they go all around the bag. I added 4 ounces to it,about 12 baffles and now it is about 5" loft, very warm 20 degree bag

The montbell was more work. This bag has individual pockets, not baffles, and ripstop nylon. Made about 24 slits in the bag, and because it is ripstop, I think you can see in pic that I made sure I only cut slit along one axis of ripstop, not crossing the other 90 ripstop, for the length of the slit. I added about 6 ounces of down to this bag, and it is 6+ inches of loft, very warm 10 degree bag.

Looks good buz!

nice touch with seam grip...

just reviving this thread because I saw this:
Diable bag
limit rated to -26f comfort rated at 10f

also
montbell

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Hammock Gear website has a nice economy top quilt that you can buy for $150 to $200 depending on the bag rating and size.
Hammock Gear