This is #1 of 5 Wilderness Challenges for 2012 that I will be posting.

The purpose of these is to get feedback on what you would do under these circumstances. I'm not looking for a "Right Answer" I'm looking to see how the many very knowledgeable people here on BWCA.com would react in a time of decision in Canoe Country.

Challenge #1: (Ice In)

Situation: You are traveling in a party of 4 (Combined crew weight of 800 lbs) in two rental Old Town Penobscot 17 foot Royalex Canoes (max load weight of 1100-1150 Lbs). You are carrying 4 large packs, 4 smaller personal packs and misc. fishing gear with a total gear weight of approximately 350 lbs split evenly between the two canoes.

This is Day 1 of a 10 Day Trip through the Quetico, the route will take you to self permit at Cache Bay Ranger Station and head through Silver Falls towards the Falls Chain, Lake Kawnipi and back down through Lake Agnes.

Background:

The Ice has just started to break up this past week. Most lake are open with ice shelves along the shore that are breaking up quickly as a warm front moves in.

You have discussed delaying the trip but one of the members could not delay and would have to pull out, so the group decided to go ahead with caution.

The Current Situation:

Date is April 14th.

Weather: Winds are steady 5-7 MPH from the SW with occasional gusts to 10-15 MPH

Temperature: 59 Degrees (unseasonably warm)

Sky: Clear and Very Sunny.

Your Current Location: You are crossing Cache Bay after self permitting at the Quetico Ranger Station. You are moving in a Northwestern direction with crosswinds and attempting to get as close to the Western shore as possible to keep out of the wind.

As you progress, the wind picks up and ice is breaking up and moving in large sheets towards you and you move towards shore as quick as possible. You are being pushed closer to the little bay indicated on the map below

The bay is piling up with moving ice and your canoes get pinched between the moving ice and both canoes dump into the water.

You are now in “Ice In” bobbing in the water and pressed between an iced in bay and moving ice coming at you.





Please DO NOT Read the other responses before answering. Try to provide you perspective so we can read many potential solutions for this life threatening situation.

Describe your recovery actions:

1. How do you get safely to shore?
2. Do you attempt to recover your gear?

We're in a tight spot boys!

I don't believe it would be worth trying to empty and right the canoes with so much ice around. I believe the best action would be to encourage each person to quickly corral the packs and at least two paddles. Then right one canoe emptying as much water as possible. Get the packs and paddles into the semi-flooded canoe. With all four hanging to the canoe, swim for the nearest shore. Hypothermia will set in quickly, so getting out of the water fast with as much gear as possible is paramount. Hopefully, the sheet ice in the bay is solid enough to support the weight of the four people and gear. If not, bust through it and get to land.

Since the air temp is warm, once on land strip off the wet clothing and get a fire going to warm up. Hopefully the packs have been lined and everything is relatively dry. You have a canoe, gear and food, so you can survive for several days. If conditions improve, send two people back in the canoe for help. If not, stay put and hope that someone finds you.

It is imperative that you all get to shore with as much gear as possible. Even if you make it to shore, without gear you'd all be goners.

I'll answer question #2 first. You leave your stuff.

The answer to #1 is this: You try and swim for the nearest dry land. The reality is that all 4 people will die. Cache Bay is a big body of water. Too big to swim, April 14 with ice is to many odds against you. These 4 people will die.

First of all, an ice-out (or nearly so) that early in the year is extremely unlikely. You would never get across the main body of Saganaga, because if Cache Bay has ice, so will the main lake. Second, I would avoid the ice in the first place.

Let's pretend, just for fun, that we did dump. The first priority would be to get out of the water and into the uprighted canoes as quickly as possible. Failure to do so would mean almost certain death from hypothermia. Next, bail out the canoes with a cooking pot or anything else that works. Fortunately, Royalex canoes insulate you from the cold water below, unlike aluminum or Kevlar boats.

Hopefully, everyone is wearing their PFDs, as these offer excellent insulation from the cold--much like a down vest.

Lastly, I would paddle/smash through to the nearest shore and build a big fire right away to warm up, and quickly change into dry clothes from my dry bag.

Lastly, I would get to the nearest campsite to dry everything out. This might involve a crash through the woods or a paddle along the shoreline where there may be no ice.

Your situation is bleak at best. Most likely there will be fatalities in this scenario. You have 5 minutes of useable strength before hypothermia makes your muscles stiff and your judgment poor. Chances of making shore are pretty slim given the distance and ice flows that block progress. You won't have time to realize the danger you are in before you slowly lose consciousness and quickly succumb. Fortunately, we were wearing your PFD and your body is recovered several days later... which ruins their trip too.

well if I'm looking at the map right you dumped near shore, so if the ice is solid enough I would get up on it and roll accross the top till I got the shore. If not solid enough I would swim to shore. I would bring my dry bag along because in those temps the dry bad would be right there floating on top. I would also bring along the rope attached to the front of my canoe as far as I could. Then take out my lighter that is wrapped in plastic that I always carry in my life jacket and start a fire asap and change clothes. I'm not worrying about my canoe floating away because it is jamed in the ice. Then I would ring out my clothes; hang them, and once warmed by the fire I would proceed to make a debree shelter. Once that is done I would take apart my survival bracelets and have about 100 feet of rope combined then I would attached a log to one and get it into the floating part of the canoe in the ice if I could not reach the roap that was attached to the canoe. After that I would try to pull it in or tie it to a tree.
I would also start creating contrant to effect my rescue (make flying flags 3 in a row with bits of fabric, 3 fires in a row and so on).. I would be blowing my whistle 3 times every 15 minutes for the entire day till rescue.

To respond to this challenge, I will start with the following assumptions. The group of four is myself and my three sons. That we are all wearing our fisherman vest-type pfd's and that all of us have survived drowning, cardiac arrest, and the initial shock and panic.

I would as convincingly as possible tell all that we are going to make it and we need to get out of the water fast. If we try to swim for shore, I think we all die, so our objective is to get on top or preferably inside floating canoes. Once we are able to get one of us back in a canoe, he would be in a position to help another until we are all back inside floating canoes. If we are able to accomplish this, I believe our chances are already better than 50/50.

With the weather being relatively warm, we would want to remove most of our soaked clothing but definitely continue to wear our pfd's. Attempt to save our gear? Absolutely! and if our seal line dry sacks can displace enough water to allow them to float, they would contain the majority of what we would need to survive this incident. How would you get to shore? If the paddles we recovered, obviously use them or anything else to help propel you to shore.

If you can make it to shore the steps would be more obvious. Help each other don dry clothing and start a fire. We always carry fire starters and waterproof matches in a zip lock bag.

When I think about everything which needs to go right after the initial disaster, I believe its more about good fortune and mental toughness than anything else.

1) I would take my knife hooked to my my PDF and use it like an ice pick to pull me out of the water and on the ice. The others would do the same if they had a knife. If they did not make it I would find a long stick and rescue anybody still in the water. Then make it to shore and regroup.

2) As far as getting any gear from the canoe I would say no. Cold water kills faster than anything in the wild. Get out of the water as fast as you can. In my PFD I have a map of the area, compass, waterproof matches, and a knife attached with a carabiner. I would first get to shore and remove all my clothes and wring them out. Then do some exercises to warm my core body up. Then put my clothes back on and start a fire. Next is find shelter for the night and sit around the fire for warmth. Next morning we will need a plan. We would have nine more days before anyone would miss us because we all left plans with our families before we left. Looking at the map I can see we could walk out if all are ok to travel. If not two would go and two would stay. According to the map it looks like a three day walk or 12 miles. Travel south and find Monument portage and cross it. Then travel to Zepher lake and turn east to Red Rock Portage. Continue East to Trails End Campground at the end of the Gunflint trail for rescue. This should take three days to do as opposed to at least 11 days if you were to wait it out. I was a Boy Scout and they told me never to move if lost. Let the rescue people find you. But in this we have a map and compass and can travel so out I go.

Well you are close to shore not in the middle of lake, if you can get back into canoes even if they have water in them paddle toward shore. Take the longest rope you have and tie to you painter line, when you get to the shoreline ice see if you can break threw but if needed try and work the canoes over the top.

second option, tie ropes to gear bags and empty canoes with bailer, slide across the ice with canoes to shore and then pull your bags to shore.

Don't be passive work as hard as you can and generate heat. I have had numerous incidents of cold water break dips thru the ice and swim in Pickrel Lake in 40 degree water for 30 minutes. It can be done.

huh. i would say that everyone is probably dead. if they survived the group should take turns questioning why they chose to follow the alleged leader into such a situation. to have began a trip in these situations shows a real lack of experience and judgment. also the group, if any are alive, should practice not flipping their canoes. they should do this in august, on a pond with a lifeguard nearby. it is very possible to pull your canoes up on ice. you have to get your feet wet though. this video shows quebec canoeists racing across the St Laurence river. before you venture into the wilderness at breakup it wight be wise to practice this technique on a local stream. on far north trips, where some lakes (used to anyways) hold ice until june and july this is good stuff to know.
canadians showing us how to canoe

I'd be a complete goner ASAP. I'm a cold person already, so what little body heat I normally carry around with me would be quickly used up and I'd die a death just like bobbernumber3 described.

;-)

quote jwartman59: "huh. i would say that everyone is probably dead. if they survived the group should take turns questioning why they chose to follow the alleged leader into such a situation. to have began a trip in these situations shows a real lack of experience and judgment. also the group, if any are alive, should practice not flipping their canoes. they should do this in august, on a pond with a lifeguard nearby. it is very possible to pull your canoes up on ice. you have to get your feet wet though. this video shows quebec canoeists racing across the St Laurence river. before you venture into the wilderness at breakup it wight be wise to practice this technique on a local stream. on far north trips, where some lakes (used to anyways) hold ice until june and july this is good stuff to know.
canadians showing us how to canoe "

So you have nothing to really add! That really helps.

quote jwartman59: "huh. i would say that everyone is probably dead. if they survived the group should take turns questioning why they chose to follow the alleged leader into such a situation. to have began a trip in these situations shows a real lack of experience and judgment. also the group, if any are alive, should practice not flipping their canoes. they should do this in august, on a pond with a lifeguard nearby. it is very possible to pull your canoes up on ice. you have to get your feet wet though. this video shows quebec canoeists racing across the St Laurence river. before you venture into the wilderness at breakup it wight be wise to practice this technique on a local stream. on far north trips, where some lakes (used to anyways) hold ice until june and july this is good stuff to know.
canadians showing us how to canoe "

If you read the wind is gusting 10-15 mph. My family has owned a lake cabin for 45 years and on the day the ice when out a few times I have been there. One year the wind was coming straight to shore and drove the ice right up the beach, knocking over a cement brick wall pushing the ice and wall 15 feet into the grass yard.

The way I read this is the same thing happened in this case. The ice is being blown into the paddlers, swamping the canoes and most likely crushing them. This is why I said get to shore and save yourself, leave the gear. If you have ever seen ice go out in a bay on a windy day you know what I'm talking about, Just like a bulldozer.

I spent a little time playing with maps on this one. My best guess is we are 250 yards from shore.

250 yards is probably too far to swim in that temperature water. We'd try righting a canoe. Get everyone in it, hopefully a paddle or 4, and head to shore. I keep my ditch kit in my pants pocket at all times, so we should be able to get a fire going while we wait for gear to wash a shore.

After reading the other responses I'd have to agree that 1 or all of us is probably not coming home from this one. We made some very bad decisions to land us in this predicament.

for me the number one rule in wilderness travel is safety. i have spent many days windbound waiting for the conditions to improve. i have also modified my route countless times if i felt that too continue would put me in unsafe conditions. these canoeists have clearly ignored their own apprehensions regarding the safety of the breakup conditions. they were fully aware of the dangers they were facing yet they continued traveling so as to not inconvenience one of the trip members.

if i sounded a little POed about this hypothetical scenario it is because i have found the bodies of drowning victims. to claim that it was very distressing is an understatement, a situation i hope to never encounter again in my life.

sorry i wasn't able to add any helpful comments regarding what the paddlers response should have been. i saw these canoeists in a hopeless state of affairs, hypothermia would very quickly cloud everyone's judgement. an extremely bad day of canoing that should have been easily avoided.

I'd be back in Ely enjoying a few cold ones, cause I wouldn't have been any where near that type of situation in the first place. Wait a day or so.

In my humble opinion, these folks are as good as dead. If they put themselves into this type of situation, and the ice caused the canoes to capsize, their odds of survival are extremely slim at best. I'd be busy making arrangements to meet my maker.

Describe your recovery actions:

1. How do you get safely to shore?
Co-operation, 4 of us in the cold need to get to shore fast and working together I think we could swim crawl and or slither across the distance needed to get to land. Drag the canoe along if possible, even if we cannot get back in it will serve as an extra float and support.
We need to save ourselves first by getting out of the water, to a more stable condition.
2. Do you attempt to recover your gear?
Securing personal survival first is most important, all the gear will not be of much use if you are incapacitated. Wind and current are in your favor for retrieving gear. You are within 2 miles of the Ranger Station and the International Boarder route so you have a pretty good chance of signaling for help.

butthead

Very first rule in survival is not to have the attitude you won't get out alive. Amazing things happen at times. Quitting or being hopeless is not an option.

Take the scenario as presented that is how its presented.

quote GSP: "Very first rule in survival is not to have the attitude you won't get out alive. Amazing things happen at times. Quitting or being hopeless is not an option."

That is very true.

quote Savage Voyageur: "

quote jwartman59: "huh. i would say that everyone is probably dead. if they survived the group should take turns questioning why they chose to follow the alleged leader into such a situation. to have began a trip in these situations shows a real lack of experience and judgment. also the group, if any are alive, should practice not flipping their canoes. they should do this in august, on a pond with a lifeguard nearby. it is very possible to pull your canoes up on ice. you have to get your feet wet though. this video shows quebec canoeists racing across the St Laurence river. before you venture into the wilderness at breakup it wight be wise to practice this technique on a local stream. on far north trips, where some lakes (used to anyways) hold ice until june and july this is good stuff to know.
canadians showing us how to canoe "

If you read the wind is gusting 10-15 mph. My family has owned a lake cabin for 45 years and on the day the ice when out a few times I have been there. One year the wind was coming straight to shore and drove the ice right up the beach, knocking over a cement brick wall pushing the ice and wall 15 feet into the grass yard.


The way I read this is the same thing happened in this case. The ice is being blown into the paddlers, swamping the canoes and most likely crushing them. This is why I said get to shore and save yourself, leave the gear. If you have ever seen ice go out in a bay on a windy day you know what I'm talking about, Just like a bulldozer. "

Edited---
Agreed. I've seen it many times. Get on top of the ice or risk being crushed, or forced underneath to drown. If you're lucky enough, your canoe will be forced on top as well.

Get back in the canoe! And grab a paddle if possible. Get everyone out of the water fast. You probably only have a couple minutes before hypothermia sets in. Once in the canoe, find a path to shore. Grab gear if you can, but that's secondary. Hopefully, someone has a ditch kit. If not, uh oh.

OK, up a creek sounds about right here.
If possible, would attempt to get everyone back into the canoes, even if swamped with water. This will provide some protection from the ice. If successful, would attempt to get what ever packs and paddles as possible back into canoe and would try to paddle perpendicular to ice in toward shore. would have bow partner use paddle to push ice away from canoe while stern paddles forward. Probably quite cold by now but paddling would help. Ice thickness was not provided but assuming it is less than 1 inch thick.
If we got some packs and make it to shore, pull everything out of the water as best as possible, even canoes, and everyone would change into whatever dry clothes we have available and attempt to get fire started. Try to cook something hot, if possible to warm everyone up and then plan on how to get back to entry point the next morning.

If we can not get any packs or paddles, then we would have to swim canoes to shore while staying on the ice free side of the canoes and attempt to start a fire with what we have and activate my GPS emergency locator that I always carry on my person whenever I am in the wilderness.

Several reponses make a quick jump from being in the water to being on shore. Ice going off a lake is usually too weak to support a persons weight and too strong to just plow thru. It is usually 6" to 8" thick and crystallized. The dump location in this scenario looks like from the rowboat pictured to the far shore. I don't think a person would make it out of the water.

Hmmmmmm reality 99% of anyone in this situation with ice blocking them from shore. Ice coming at you quickly... Body submerged in ice cold water. No mattter it's almost 60. You body is wet and submerged and shore is unreachable. Canoes most likely damaged hull from being rammed by ice. 99% Of people would drown in this situation. Regardless of experiance, physical strength or how good of pfd....

If the canoe is not rightable. And you can't get back into it out of the water before being pushed under from the coming ice. Your dead........

If the ice will bear your body weight laid out flat. You might have a small chance.. Assuming you have your knife on your person and your dump kit in your pfd or attached to you. You may be able to use your knife to bite into the ice to help pull you up onto it. Before a. either getting pushed under=certain death or b. getting your limbs or ribs injured from the smashing ice= most likely death

But if your close enough to shore and able to climb onto the ice that may possibly hold you before getting slammed. You can very carefully slide your body towards shore. keeping your weight spread out.

Where you'll then of course do everything in your power to start a fire as fast as possible then access the situation. Which would be signal for help. Or sit in shock of the fact that four people in the same situation are very unlikely to all make it out of the ice ridden water alive.

What's learned from this? Don't put yourself in this situation... If you by chance saw coming ice in large sheets.. Avoid it by altering your route. Or staying on shore.

quote bobbernumber3: "Several reponses make a quick jump from being in the water to being on shore. Ice going off a lake is usually too weak to support a persons weight and too strong to just plow thru. It is usually 6" to 8" thick and crystallized. The dump location in this scenario looks like from the rowboat pictured to the far shore. I don't think a person would make it out of the water.


"

great photo. i feel like that kid sometimes.

i used to do a lot of whitewater canoing/kayaking, much of it during the spring snow melt, a season where the rivers are usually running high. i know from experience, that even when wearing a wet suit, a person's body, mine anyways, entering into these freezing waters you experience a moment of shock. it overwhelms you and creates a period a disorientation that may hinder your ability to make careful decisions.

with practice and experience you learn to react to these upsets with instinct rather than trying to adhere to a preplanned scenario. i could and probably still could do an Eskimo roll in any whitewater situation. the same idea goes for a swamped canoe in icy waters, with experience in these types of waters, a swim or two in the ice water, and these paddlers may have the skills to be able to self rescue.

the fact that the air temps were quite warm, and the winds were minimal would give this group of canoeist a sense of confidence in the fact that they were not in great danger. the official air tempts may be comfortable, but the tempt on the water, in a canoe will feel much cooler. so if these canoeists were paddling and dressed for the situation, they hopefully were wearing several layers of wool/synthetics and a good outer shell.

if someone in this group was an experienced, snow melt, white water canoeist, i would give them a much greater chance of success. if they were all experienced whitewater canoeists I doubt that they would have allowed their canoes to upset in the first place.

+1 for knowing a high brace and a low brace. these also work on any wave, lake or rapid, whatever the weather.

quote bojibob: "This is #1 of 5 Wilderness Challenges for 2012 that I will be posting. ...
Describe your recovery actions:

1. How do you get safely to shore?
2. Do you attempt to recover your gear?"

I'm having a hard time envisioning exactly where I dumped, where the ice is, and where the closest shore is. So, I'll just describe in general terms...

Given the temp of the water, getting out is ther absolute first priority. So, I would do whatever I had to do to get to land. If possible, I would go downwind towards a real shoreline rather than an island. That way, I'd have more resources and wouldn't get trapped on the island without a canoe.

Once on shore, I'd try to catch my breath and carefully think things through. I'd establish where the others in my group are located and try to get us all together. There is strength in numbers.

I always have a small dump kit in my PFD. So, I would start a little fire to warm myself up.

Given the time, air temperature, and wind, I would try to spread out my clothing to dry. It may make the difference between surviving the night or not.

I would also be watching my bobbing gear. Hopefully, it is drifting towards me.

Each person for themselves. Try to get ontop of the ice with extra flotation if possible and slide into shore somehow. Then get a fire started and dry out as soon as possible.

BTW, who the hell am I tripping with that we're 800 pounds for 4 people? For my groups it would be more like 600...

Step 1: Get out of the water FAST. Perform a "dual wet re-entry": two people under each upside down canoe, tilt slightly to break the seal then, using simultaneous scissor kicks, lift the canoe up and flip to right it. Partners help each other re-enter the canoe ... one person on each side, stern person enters first. (You DID practice this last summer, right????)

2) Get moving. Generate body warmth fast. Paddle rapidly to gather ditch kits and get your butts to shore.

3) Strip wet clothes; don dry emergency clothes from your ditch kits.

4) Generate body warmth; gather fire wood if you can still move. If not, huddle together under any cover (dry leaves if necessary -- sleeping bags preferred) to share body heat.
[Edit: Don't get squeamish. This is an emergency, not "Broke Back Quetico"]

I'm assuming that everybody is wearing PFD's, of course.

BTW, if the entire crew had been wearing drysuits, this would not have been an emergency. Problem is, when the air temp is warm, drysuits can be very undomfortable.

I have lived on the south shore of Lakes Michigan and Erie and yes, the ice can get piled quite high and thick.
But in this situation, the ice, in my opinion, is not going to be real thick during an ice out situation. Maybe half to one inch at best and the wind is not blowing like a hurricane so the being piled up like some are describing I do not see happening in this scenario. Is it a bad place to be, hell yeah. Would most of us be in this spot, hell no. Is it being buried alive in pack ice, no. I guess it is how people see survival situations and I for one, do not toss in the towel until my eyes close for the last time. Come on folks, think survival here. Do not give in to the dying of the light.

I am all for getting the gear to shore, either by swimming/traversing ice while pulling up righted somewhat bailed out canoe or in the canoe itself. I think to much effort will be spent trying to get back into canoe as I am still a once a year canoe person so that may be a futile effort for me. I if One of us can get to shore the others can hang on the side when its pulled in. Then get clothes off and into sleeping bags. This is where my trusty svea stove with a couple of fuel bottles of white gas comes in handy! One match ... whoosh a instant bonfire! I usually have enough cord to maybe make that distance so I would try to tie them all together and get to shore and try to pull it in . That may be the best option here for me. tie off to canoe and hope I had enough cord.... I ( i certainly did last year! I brought close to 400 feet and didn't use it all....all though I should have! But that's another story... LOL ) I need my gear or I will die. so I am am going to die trying rather than just give up! Hope I live to tell about it!

quote tonyyarusso: "BTW, who the hell am I tripping with that we're 800 pounds for 4 people? For my groups it would be more like 600..."

600 lbs for four people? The average American male weighs right around 195. I guess I'm a little above average :)