A friend and I are planning a trip into the BWCA in late December. We have winter camped before, but always as teachers with groups of kids using Wintergreen as an outfitter. So, we have experience with the elements, but we have never had to provide our own gear beyond personal clothing and skis.

My biggest concern is my sleeping system. While I would love to invest in a winter bag, the chairman of the board (read: my wife) says no. So, I have a number of 3 season bags and would appreciate some feedback/suggestions as to whether or not I can use a two bag system, and what, if anything, you use as a bivy.

Appreciate your thoughts and consideration!

I used a 2 bag setup last year and was fine. Boil some water and put it in a Nalgene bottle and toss it down by the toes is a good thing!

quote GreatBigCubsFan: "I used a 2 bag setup last year and was fine. Boil some water and put it in a Nalgene bottle and toss it down by the toes is a good thing!"

I can echo that approach.
Make sure the two bags zip on the same side is all.
I also just use my 3season tent...no bivy, they get damp inside.

The 2 bag system works well for me, I use a 0 on the outside and a 30 degree bag in -15 degree temps with no issues and always stay warm.

I'm unable to justify the cost for a true winter bag…

The two bag system will work okay, as long as the bags don't become too compressed.

A bivy isn't absolutely necessary, but serves two purposes. It protects the sleeping bags from dirt, debris and possibly some sparks.


The other purpose has to do with frost. You will pass moisture through the inside of the bags migrating to the outside. The moisture will turn to frost. With a bivy, the moisture will collect on the inside of the bivy. Without a bivy, it will create frost on the outer surface of your outer bag. Pull the bivy off in the morning, take it outside and shake the frost off.

If you are on a budget, a cheap bivy can be made from Tyvek.

I don't use a bivy until the temperatures get pretty cold, like in the teens or below. For me, they are sweaty and clammy unless its really cold.


Have fun.

I have used two bags and they work fine. Mine don't zip on the same side but I consider that a plus. You could consider a sleeping bag liner such as the ones made by Sea to Summit.

A bivy sack tends to get rather frosty but it will add warmth to your shelter in extreme cases. A three season tent with most of it's screen covered is a better shelter. I've found it is nice to have the spare room to put on and take clothing off that a tent provides so in your case a 3-4 person tent for the two of you would be best.

Liner

Will you be cold camping or hot tenting? If hot, then a two bag system will be just fine, just make sure you gather lots of firewood and use it during the night when the temperature dips.
If cold camping, well, I don't have any expirance with that, but I recommend bringing a lot of blankets.

Thanks, everyone. We will be cold camping, and I am pumped! Working on a pulk and I just picked up some new back country ski gear at the Midwest Expo.

I actually prefer nesting two bags for below-zero temps anyway, rather than the single super-thick bags. It's cheaper and more flexible, and I think it's actually warmer because you get a gap in between (which is also a good space for drying/warming clothes). The main thing is to try to use an outer bag that's cut more generously than the inner, so you don't compress the insulation of the inner bag. (I use the Big Agnes "Park series" bags for the outer, cold camping, no fire.) If your bags are the same size (or even if you just want more space to move around), you might want to look at a bag expander. As for the bivy, will you be sleeping directly on the snow, or in a tent or something?

I'm actually going to disagree with Minnesotian's suggestion of "lots of blankets". Blankets are heavy, so you'll compress your sleeping bag and actually lose warmth after a point. I do like to bring a single relatively light wool blanket (from Campmor, but it looks like they don't sell it anymore), which serves largely as something to sit on, put my feet on after I take my shoes off, etc., but can also be flipped over my bag just to keep the frost off.

I would add that your sleeping pad is very important, consider a downmat. I also add a piece of Reflectix between my bag and my mat. Last but not least, consider camping in you backyard before you head into the BWCA. Have a great trip!

quote whitecedar: "I would add that your sleeping pad is very important, consider a downmat. I also add a piece of Reflectix between my bag and my mat. Last but not least, consider camping in you backyard before you head into the BWCA. Have a great trip!"

Whitecedar makes a good point in that insulating yourself from the ground is very important. Don't underestimate your heat loss to the ground. Do whatever you can to eliminate that area of heat loss be it a downmat or a synthetic be sure you have lots of insulation between you and the ground.

I have ALWAYS used a two bag system for sleeping.
I have two 15° Bags, a downmat 9 deluxe sleeping pad and a 1/2" thick closed cell foam pad.
I have a simple "bivy" bag that is a supplex top and 1.1 sil nylon bottom. It is Way oversize so I can keep stuff near at night. I went 25 plus years with no bivy bag.
Besides the sleeping bags a neck gaitor and good wool or fleece hat is a must for me.
I have cold camped many times at -20° below and lower with great success.
If you are worried about how cold you may sleep a couple of hand warmers,(or the back heat pads) the kind you crunch up to start the heat production work great to give you body a boost of heat so you can get a deep sleep. you can have them in your bag and unactivated and if you wake up cool, activate and go back to sleep.
I use the hand warmers in choppers during supper prep when it is really cold and they are still giving heat into the early evening.

quote SevenofNine: "

quote whitecedar: "I would add that your sleeping pad is very important, consider a downmat. I also add a piece of Reflectix between my bag and my mat. Last but not least, consider camping in you backyard before you head into the BWCA. Have a great trip!"

Whitecedar makes a good point in that insulating yourself from the ground is very important. Don't underestimate your heat loss to the ground. Do whatever you can to eliminate that area of heat loss be it a downmat or a synthetic be sure you have lots of insulation between you and the ground.


"

Good points. I have a closed cell foam pad that I will use for the ground and on top of that an Exped downmat.

quote DanCooke: "I have ALWAYS used a two bag system for sleeping.
I have two 15° Bags, a downmat 9 deluxe sleeping pad and a 1/2" thick closed cell foam pad.
I have a simple "bivy" bag that is a supplex top and 1.1 sil nylon bottom. It is Way oversize so I can keep stuff near at night. I went 25 plus years with no bivy bag.
Besides the sleeping bags a neck gaitor and good wool or fleece hat is a must for me.
I have cold camped many times at -20° below and lower with great success.
If you are worried about how cold you may sleep a couple of hand warmers,(or the back heat pads) the kind you crunch up to start the heat production work great to give you body a boost of heat so you can get a deep sleep. you can have them in your bag and unactivated and if you wake up cool, activate and go back to sleep.
I use the hand warmers in choppers during supper prep when it is really cold and they are still giving heat into the early evening."

This is the voice of experience speaking. Thanks Dan!

With an Exped DLX9 the snow under is still crunchy and light with no melt - good enough for me. And since I discovered the two bag method - never been cold again. I do sometimes use the disposable hand and foot warmers but rarely since I got a pair of down booties. Mine have a rubber sole so good for a trip out of the tent in the middle of the night. Haven't found a balaclava I feel OK in so have a wool blanket that I lay across head of pad and then fold over my head - but then I sleep on my stomach with my hands and arms over or under my head, so blanket is really for my arms. Can't stand long johns so sleep in flannel pajama bottoms and a long sleeve t-shirt.

I'm always amazed when I change at night or in the morning that I'm not colder than I am at 15 below.

Always been in a Timberline 4 with the a couple of sq feet of vent open. One time it was zipped just too much frost. I suppose I co8uld as easily just slept outside.

Every January near Waupaca with Scouts. Wish I could go more often.

So I am intrigued by this idea of cold camping. If I am reading this right, having a three season tent with a fair amount of screen covered by a vestibule would be ok for winter camping!?And for sleeping bags I've got a 15* and a 20* bag. Would using both of them be better than using the 15* with a 30 for space and compression reasons?

quote pswith5: "If I am reading this right, having a three season tent with a fair amount of screen covered by a vestibule would be ok for winter camping!?

Around here anyway, yes. The main things that differentiate tents actually marketed as "four season" are:
* Handling of heavy snow loads (*usually* not a big deal here...today in Two Harbors notwithstanding)
* Holding up to high winds (like, hundred mile and hour mountaintop insanity, not an issue here)
* Ability to seal all mesh to keep out spindrift (snow blowing in under the edges, which usually isn't a big deal here, as our blowing snow is the heavy wet stuff and the light fluffy cold stuff often falls in calmer conditions)

quote pswith5: "And for sleeping bags I've got a 15* and a 20* bag. Would using both of them be better than using the 15* with a 30 for space and compression reasons?"

The cut and sizing of the bag are what matter for that not the temperature rating. Are the bags different in that respect?

for winter camping i pay attention to weather forecasts and plan accordingly. subtract alot because the forecasts may be and are probably wrong. i have an old north face down bag, i am not sure of it's model, probably the cat's meow. i have no idea of its temp rating, but it serves me well to about 10 degrees. i couple it with a north face, semi rectangular cut, poly bag rated at 45 degrees. this along with my rei bivy sack has kept me alive below forty below. many times. the point is you don't have to spend big bucks.

as far as cold tents, i had (i forced myself to toss it) a north face ve-24, late 70s model. i had worked at a guide shop in Anchorage, alaska. this tent had been up denali several times. in the humid minnesota air, in winter, sleeping in this thing was like sleeping in a snowstorm. the taj3 works just as well.

Pete, you would die. Stay in the city! =)

I have used a 3 season tent for years. Be it an old 3 man or a 2 man REI Half dome. I find the bigger tents with the additional room to be handy (changing clothing/storing gear). Mostly it protects you from the wind but I have noticed an increase in temperature while inside the Half dome.

Regarding the sleeping bags. The best combination will be the set up with the warmest rated bags that have the least amount of compression. I use a synthetic bag rated to -20 (it's not a -20) but add a 5 degree Cat's Meow inside it. The -20 bag is a huge bag 36" x 90" so there's room for the other bag.

What you could do is mostly open one bag (outside bag) while leaving the foot closed and use it more as a blanket. Having chemical hand/body warmers are now on my list after a cold camp this January.

quote SevenofNine: "Having chemical hand/body warmers are now on my list after a cold camp this January."

I just found my (very old) Jon-E hand warmers. I have a large and a small one...might just bring them next weekend. If nothing else they might keep the boots warm at night...lol