BWCA Anybody camped in a quinzhee? Boundary Waters Winter Camping and Activities
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      Anybody camped in a quinzhee?     

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hubben
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12/04/2013 12:31AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
In the interests of increased mobility, we're considering leaving the "hot tent" behind and camping in improvised snow shelters ("quinzhees") on our BWCA winter trek this year.

Has anyone utilized this method, and if so, do you find that snow shelters have significant insulating properties?

Any problems with dripping? Perhaps it would be feasible to set up single-man bivy tents inside of a quinzhee for the purpose of staying dry.

 
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SevenofNine
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12/04/2013 06:20AM  
Yes, I have made 3 attempts at building them. I was successful once because I gave the snow enough time to set up.

They are quite warm and quiet once you are inside. I did not use a bivy so I slept on a couple closed cell foam pads.


You need almost a full day to make one not counting several hours of letting the snow setup and compact. This is how I did it. First day I shoveled all the snow after we arrived at camp. The second day I spent shoveling and carving the shelter out. It was a lot of work as I was doing it alone with 2 people it would go faster. That night I slept in it.

My shelter was small (one man) but it was quite warm with a blanket over the entrance as a door. I like the idea of having a bivy or cover for your bag.

On our way out leaving my friend (cold tent sleeper) who was quite scared of actually using it tried to smash it in by stepping on it. He weighs upwards of 280lbs and on his first try he put his foot thru the roof. On his second try the whole roof settled a couple inches. He didn't make a third try. Done right they are strong shelters!
12/04/2013 09:44AM  
I have slept in them, just remember to wait and let them setup before you start digging them out. I could sit up in mine, but come morning I hit my nose on the ceiling while laying down.

I don't remember getting wet at all.

It is very quiet, and peaceful.

Setting up a hot tent, gathering firewood takes less time than properly building a quinzee. I would rather be warm and able to dry out my clothes.

I suggest bringing your hot tent and plan a layover day to build a quinzee for the first time. There are times in the winter when the snow is too dry to hold any shape and if you are relying on it for shelter you could be in for a cold night sleeping on top of the snow instead of inside of it.

A quinzee is going to be around 30 degrees, a hot tent is going to be 3x as warm ;)
12/04/2013 10:44AM  
Quinzees are fun to build, but it is not something that you're going to do in a few minutes after a full day of travel. They take a lot of time and effort to build. Besides that, the snow conditions have to be such that it can "sinter" or set up.

I won't depend upon one for my only shelter. Take the hot tent.
12/04/2013 12:31PM  
As others have said, it takes too long to do them the first night. I was also told that Minnesota snow is rarely ever right for making them.

The one and only time I have been successful was at scout camp when we shoveled the snow off the roof a building, let it sit overnight and then carved it out. It was big enough for 4-5 people and had a center post to hold the dome up. Warm and quiet is an understatement...with 4-5 people in there it was melting/dripping fairly well until we poked a hole to vent the heat out. even then it would drip...

You might be able to pile snow on your bivy but you wont be mobile with a quanzie.
tonyyarusso
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12/04/2013 01:03PM  
Quinzees are VERY warm, definitely. However, they are definitely not mobile. If you just want to trek in further and then basecamp, then they're good, but they're way too much work to build every day. (Plan on it taking basically a whole day's daylight to build - an hour or two to pile, then a couple hours of sintering while you fish or explore, then three hours or so of digging out.) The sintering time is temperature-dependent. No problems with dripping if you use a trowel to sculpt the walls smooth when you finish digging it out - make it so the water runs down the wall instead of finding a point to drip. You do want a vent hole or two going out at an angle.

Protip: Have a small children's sled along, plus a shovel with a very short handle. As you get further into digging out the quinzee, shovel snow onto the sled, then once the sled is full shove it out for emptying (ideally by a partner).
tonyyarusso
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12/04/2013 01:10PM  
quote Soledad: "A quinzee is going to be around 30 degrees, a hot tent is going to be 3x as warm ;)"

Fahrenheit zero is arbitrary. 3x as warm as 30 degrees in real terms would be 1467 degrees Rankine, or 1009 degrees Fahrenheit. I don't think I'd sleep very well in that tent. :P
hubben
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12/04/2013 01:13PM  
Wow. Thanks for all the input. My interest in quinzhees was piqued when I had the good fortune to run into Bill Hansen (Sawbill Outfitters) while snowshoeing around on the Fire Chain Lakes last January. He's an amicable fellow and harbors a wealth of knowledge on everything BWCA, given his 50+ years of living and making a living on its fringe. He told me that he almost always uses "snow caves" on his winter treks except for on infrequent occasions when there are dogs and dogsleds involved-- which allow him the luxury of ease of transport given the added weight of a hot tent.

Sounds like--at least for less-experienced types like myself--they may work best as a provisional/backup/experimental shelters rather than as primary refuges, however!
luft
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12/06/2013 10:39AM  
quote tonyyarusso: "Protip: Have a small children's sled along, plus a shovel with a very short handle. As you get further into digging out the quinzee, shovel snow onto the sled, then once the sled is full shove it out for emptying (ideally by a partner)."


This is a great tip. We used sleds to unload the excavated snow when we built two quinzhees on a camping trip in my younger years and it really simplified the process of digging out the interior.

Also bring a set of clothing to change into if you are the digger. I was the smallest person on the trip so was the designated mole to dig the door and initial interior area until it was large enough for one of the guys to get into. I was soaked from the melting snow and sweat by the time I was done. It was fun to do and we were quite comfortable inside despite the -20 degree temps outdoors that weekend. But it was very time consuming and strenuous even with a group of people so I have never built one again.

I wonder if Bill Hansen has a modified version that takes less time to build?



12/06/2013 10:59AM  
quote hubben: "Wow. Thanks for all the input. My interest in quinzhees was piqued when I had the good fortune to run into Bill Hansen (Sawbill Outfitters) while snowshoeing around on the Fire Chain Lakes last January. He's an amicable fellow and harbors a wealth of knowledge on everything BWCA, given his 50+ years of living and making a living on its fringe. He told me that he almost always uses "snow caves" on his winter treks except for on infrequent occasions when there are dogs and dogsleds involved-- which allow him the luxury of ease of transport given the added weight of a hot tent.


Sounds like--at least for less-experienced types like myself--they may work best as a provisional/backup/experimental shelters rather than as primary refuges, however! "


A snow cave is quite a different animal then a quinzie. Basically, you find a vertical wall where the blowing snow has drifted over heavily and you dig a hole into the snow big enough for yourself. snow cave
Moss Tent
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12/06/2013 12:50PM  
Has anybody built an igloo with the Grand Shelters igloo tool?

I have done the snow shelter thing and like everybody says, it can take a long time for dry snow to set up, if it ever does; and packing the snow is a pain.

I have held off buying an igloo tool for 3 years now, but I just might pull the trigger this year. Snowfall totals are already looking good.

I'd like to try making one on the ice first, to use as a fishing shelter. Was there lots of wind during this last snow event leaving lots of shallow snow on lakes, or is there fairly good coverage?

12/09/2013 08:18AM  
quote Moss Tent: "Has anybody built an igloo with the Grand Shelters igloo tool?


I have done the snow shelter thing and like everybody says, it can take a long time for dry snow to set up, if it ever does; and packing the snow is a pain.


I have held off buying an igloo tool for 3 years now, but I just might pull the trigger this year. Snowfall totals are already looking good.


I'd like to try making one on the ice first, to use as a fishing shelter. Was there lots of wind during this last snow event leaving lots of shallow snow on lakes, or is there fairly good coverage?


"

I think you will find the same/similar results in this area with that too.
Turnpike
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12/09/2013 11:42AM  
Yes. I've built them along with snow domes on most of my winter trips.



Above pic is from last January with my wife. We were camping on Skull Lake and this was on our last morning. It was our anniversary.
12/10/2013 07:11AM  
Someone needs to stand up for the life saving quinzee!! If you plan to camp when its bitter, bitter cold it could be your only chance at survival. Every shelter has work involved and with the Quin its all front end which makes day 2 and beyond all gravy days. Yes day 2. It does not take two days or even a whole day. What it takes are a couple of folks willing to shovel for about an hour to make the pile. Those same folks then need to take a break for other misc camp chores or if you fish its time to dig holes and set tip ups (keep them well away from the Quin). The quin on the ice is the easiest to build and he most rewarding when the ice starts talking at night. So after 2-3 ours of letting the quin rest (sinter) you will need an hour or two to dig out. It is a warm job so take turns and try not to rush. Have that fire going on shore to help dry when you are not digging or moving snow. Good tip on the rain gear or light gear for this job. Other tips would be:
-use sticks stuck about 16 inches into the sides for wall thickness verification (12 min).
-with the extra snow from the inside build a curved wall/bench around the entrance (many uses)
-while shoveling the initial pile stomp it down with snowshoes every so often to help that sinter/packing process get kick started
-line the bottom of the Quin with fur boughs for insulation from the ice and for the most refreshing fragrance
-fashion some type of door, blanket and sled work well
-keep that door small; diameter of your largest tripper
-smooth the inside walls into a nice arc
-pull one or two of those wall sticks for air vents
-make plenty tall so you can sit up with clearance
-keep pets outside or the Quin will get too warm
-use a couple close cell pads above the boughs, bivy optional
-place Quin on the NW end of the lake to protect from blizzard conditions and in an area that is close to fish structure so dinner isn't too far away
-enjoy the hell out of it, they will never collapse built this way
Fallsy
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12/10/2013 08:00AM  
I also feel compelled to chime in to defense of the quinzee and in support of my long time camping partner Sobi. We have spent dozens of nights in quinzees in temps ranging from 20 above to 50 below and have never had a bad experience. Sobi spelled it out pretty solid but I'll reinforce and add my 2 cents.

-Know your group, quinzee building is work so if you have guys who are not in decent shape or just not real motivated than maybe a quinzee isn't for them. Then again, maybe you should have left those guys home to start with :)

-3 to 4 guys is the best size group for quinzee building. 2 guys shoveling while other one or two do other chores, rotate often.

-There is no bad snow for building a quinzee, just be sure to mix it well. If there are blocks then break them up with snowshoes as Sobi said. NO need to "pack" the snow really but it should be well mixed. I wouldn't try to build one when it is above freezing but if it is above freezing you should be sleeping under the stars anyway.

-Mark out the perimeter and start shoveling in, working out in concentric circles. We have made quinzees when there was hardly more than 6 inches of snow, you just need to throw it a little further.

-Do the prep in the daylight and let it set up. You will probably be digging out in the dark since the days are short and you spent much of the day traveling. This is the hardest part because the temp drops and fatigue sets in after a long day. Just be prepared for that and rotate the digger often. As advised, wear rain gear. Rotate often because no matter the temp outside it will be hot inside the quinzee while digging, this is the beauty of it, it is warm.

A properly constructed quinzee is as safe and comfortable as any shelter you can think of. I highly recommend trying it out.

BTW. To Moss Tent. I have tried the igloo tool (Grand Shelters). I have no doubt that there are some experts out there who can build great shelters with them but my experience was not good. We tried it with sugar snow a few times and were pretty frustrated. The one we completed successfully was beautiful but i would not rely on it for primary shelter in the back woods until you have built a few of them at home.
12/10/2013 09:17AM  
quote Sobi: "So after 2-3 ours of letting the quin rest (sinter) you will need an hour or two to dig out. "

Its going take longer than that…

quote Sobi: "
-while shoveling the initial pile stomp it down with snowshoes every so often to help that sinter/packing process get kick started
"

Not recommended…

quote Sobi: "
-keep that door small; diameter of your largest tripper
"

Also good to keep it lower than the floor…hard to do on the ice.
Nobody was saying there are not fantastic. I think I was trying to say don’t plan on it for the trip the OP was describing…moving every day. That type of trip is just not conducive for a “Quin.” Another point I made and will say it again…Minnesota snow is not the best. It can be done but it does add to the challenges of making one.
NotLight
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12/10/2013 10:33AM  

I think I've heard of at least 10 dead people on Mt Hood who've died trying to survive in a snow cave or quinzhee. Moisture and hypothermia would be my guess. You get too wet digging them. I can see where they'd work for base camping and where you could change clothes.
I think what might work better is a set of snow walls or a snow trench and a tarp roof. You don't have to wait so long for the snow to set because you are not supporting the roofs weight, plus you don't get wet digging it out. I am planning to try this approach with my Megalight tarp this winter - we'll see how that goes and what goes wrong with that plan....
Fallsy
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12/10/2013 10:50AM  
Notlight, I think you will have a perfectly good shelter with the snow trench and the tarp for the right conditions. What you are giving up by not having it completely enclosed (quinzee) is the unbelievable insulating properties of snow. I have done zero hot tent camping in extreme cold conditions so I cannot debate point for point what is the superior shelter but I can tell you that three guys with decent gear will sleep like babies in a quinzee at 40 below without worrying about snow load, wind or stoking a fire all night. If you want to go light and far like the OP, quinzee camping can be perfect. You just need to plan the necessary time and have some basic skills and information. If the quinzee building sounds like a big chore, scary or a hassle to someone than maybe they belong in a tent, we have always found the process fun and rewarding. Who hasn't built a snow cave in the back yard as a kid (or with the kids)it's fun! A good way to illustrate the snow as insulation concept is to go out one of these next few days when it is -10 -20 or -30 and bury a thermometer in the snow near the ground. You can expect readings not to much below freezing (subnivean zone). Under the snow is the place to be in my opinion.
12/10/2013 12:34PM  
Notlight or how about Heavy?
If you go with the tarp idea, be sure to create a fairly steep peak. Frost will develop on the underside and when the sun hits the next day it will melt it and all that will drain down the tarp or drop on your gear if you don't. I built a big tomb last year and used a tarp for the top since it snowing heavily the first day. The run off was considerable. With that combo i would definitely use a bivy too.
NotLight
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12/10/2013 02:49PM  
quote Sobi: "Notlight or how about Heavy?
If you go with the tarp idea, be sure to create a fairly steep peak. Frost will develop on the underside and when the sun hits the next day it will melt it and all that will drain down the tarp or drop on your gear if you don't. I built a big tomb last year and used a tarp for the top since it snowing heavily the first day. The run off was considerable. With that combo i would definitely use a bivy too."


Thanks! That is a nice tip. I wouldn't have thought about the runoff.

12/10/2013 09:26PM  
you don't need to be a strong guy to build one. I have made and slept in them quite a few times. While it does take longer to make than a snow trench it is not to hard to make one by yourself
MossTent
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12/12/2013 08:18AM  
Having built maybe 100 of these, I agree with Sobi that packing it down a bit speeds the set-up of the snow. Doughboy why do you think this is not a good idea?

Fallsy
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12/12/2013 08:48AM  
I have also seen others say that "packing" the snow is not "recommended". I think it is better stated that packing is not adequate or a replacement for letting the snow set-up (sinter). If you try to rush the process and just pack the snow it will fracture when you try to dig it out. It is necessary to break the snow into small crystals so when it freezes back together it forms stronger bonds, stomping the snow helps break it down further and speeds up the process some. People who fail at making the quinzee almost all have the same problem and begin hollowing it out too soon. I'm sure conditions and snow type matter but we have always used about 3 hrs as a rule of thumb and have not had any problems.

http://wiki.fis-ski.com/index.php/Snow_Sintering


This is the root of the problem I have had with the igloo maker tool. It takes a lot of skill and patience to figure out just how much pressure to apply to the top of the block while forming it and how long to apply pressure to create a block that will hold after you let go and unclamp the form. It's pretty tough with fine sugary snow you often find on frozen lakes in January.
12/12/2013 09:23AM  
Fallsy, we ought to recount the story of the -51 year on Disappointment where we started with 16 participants day 1 and by day 2 it was down to just the three of us. It all came down to the Quin. We took our time, built it right and then thoroughly enjoyed the second coldest night in MN recorded history. We knew the rest of the crew would be ok, that first night but we also knew they would not be sleeping. They rushed things, skipped steps, and just didn't completely prepare for temps almost unheard of. I felt a wee bit bad, but we did warn them.

Night two was only -47 I think. Much quieter without the crew, but still soooooo beautiful.
Fallsy
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12/12/2013 09:42AM  
Sorry to go off a little off topic but allow me to reminisce about a few things learned on that trip.

-Like Sobi said, Shelter is key, don't skimp on time and effort to build it right. The other guys stayed out late in Duluth to party and got a late start (hung-over) the next day, bad mistake.

-Celebratory hard liquor will begin to freeze at -40 and at negative 50 gets pretty firm. I didn't know what trying to drink that kind of super cooled liquid would do to a digestive track and certainly did not want to find out.

-No fuel or stove works at those temperatures besides strike anywhere matches and paper\sticks\wood. Have some with and dry for emergencies.

-A hot breakfast and a little merlot are sometimes just what you need to start the day even before exiting your sleeping bag.

That was a great weekend.
12/12/2013 12:00PM  
And at those temps fishing is still possible if you use that life saving snow to insulate your tip ups. Amazing material!!

How about how cetain plastics react under slight pressure or impact? :)
12/12/2013 02:51PM  
quote MossTent: "Having built maybe 100 of these, I agree with Sobi that packing it down a bit speeds the set-up of the snow. Doughboy why do you think this is not a good idea?


"

I read it "somewhere"...can't say I have ever compared it.
My guess is it leads to varied densities of the pack and thus strength.
12/12/2013 03:08PM  
That last comment sparks the most important tip of all Hubben...
Reading is not research. Personal experience trumps the chat room.

Be careful out there and write back after the trip!!
Primitiveman
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12/12/2013 11:00PM  
I would like to say thanks to Sobi and Fallsy for sharing this wonderful experienced based information. It is priceless! And inspiring. I plan to build a Quinzhee here on King lake to test this over Christmas break with my daughters who want to winter camp in the BWCA. I will report our results but again many thanks for this info.
Jon
Moss Tent
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12/15/2013 03:34PM  
I see where the misunderstanding came in...I have never waited less than about 6 hours for set-up! Paranoid? Maybe. I will even tent the first night if I can't get the 6 hours.

Why? Because that's what the guy said the very first time I found out how to make them, when I was about 8 years old. Following his directions has NEVER failed me, even in bitter cold with extremely dry snow.

Bitter cold can be really cerebral, what those guys are saying about fuel, plastics, and liquids, even booze, is right on. I like drinking as much as anybody, but I never, ever take any alcoholic drinks with me into the deep-freeze (-30 or lower). Paranoid again.

Coldest major city I've spent time in? Edmonton, AB. Sure I've been in colder places, but no colder major metropolitan areas. Doing some research at the U, they had a free boost service, which would only kick in at -26C or below, because before that it wasn't "cold". Plug-in's everywhere. Block heater insufficient, need battery warmer also.

Best week there was in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember), when the HIGH for the whole week didn't exceed -22C.

I didn't see a single quinzhee anywhere!

Moss Tent
Guest Paddler
  
12/15/2013 03:43PM  
Thinking about an igloo now, the snow wouldn't really need to sinter completely for the structure to be sufficiently strong to support itself, as it is supposed to be a catenary curve.

The wall looks pretty thin, and therefore pretty light also. I could see the snow getting dry enough here to make the igloo a real pain, though, and super-dry snow doesn't respond at all well to "packing" efforts.

Hmmmmm.........
12/15/2013 04:10PM  
Over the weekend I was surprised at how hard the area I packed down to pitch the tent got at -22. It was as hard as a sidewalk after about 10 minutes.
12/20/2013 03:48PM  


Get the ice box to make your igloo. The thing rocks. Do a search on it in the forums. I have written a bunch of tips and tricks. Have fun!

And to answer the original question "Perhaps it would be feasible to set up single-man bivy tents inside of a quinzhee for the purpose of staying dry. "

Sleep under a tarp or in an igloo if you want to stay dry. if you enjoy moisture all over everything, sleep in a tent or Bivey. The moisture from your breath will get trapped and make things absolutely miserable.

Frankly speaking the best is to dig out a ditch in the snow an place a tarp above if it snows (to keep the snow off. It is quick, easy, insulates, etc. I have done it at -33 and slept like a baby.

12/22/2013 06:01PM  
Great info here. I have slept in probably a dozen quinzhees over the years. The biggest one was on top of Eagle Mtn that slept 8 guys in two levels. The next morning we took pictures with all 8 guys standing on top.
Sobi and Fallsy -- excellent stuff. I firmly believe in packing down with snowshoes. I have built them with and without snowshoes. With snowshoes,, the snow gets denser, quicker, saving time. The stick tip is crucial,, I have ruined a few by kicking my feet out by not knowing the wall thinkness I had left.

Be prepared with an extra set of clothes,gloves boot liners after the snow removal if you plan on doing anything else outside before going to bed.(obviously you will change clothes before bed anyway) you will get wet with both sweat and snow melting. Likely mentioned on here,, but we used to light a small lantern inside for about 5-10 minutes to glaze the inside walls and harden them up. I wish had pics of the ones I have been part of.

It's been 15 years since my last quinzhee... maybe this winter.

CrookedPaddler1
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12/23/2013 09:40AM  
I have spent many, many nights in a quinzee in the BWCA! Fabulous shelters that keep you out of the wind, and relatively warm. The only downfall is the amount of time it takes to build one, especially if the snow conditions are not ideal.

So, you can think about this, they are called a trench shelter. I have done them two different ways. One is to dig a trench in the snow down to the ground, put your sleeping pad and bag down and if it is windy, or snowing, cover the indentation with a tarp.

The other way is to again dig down to the ground, but place the excavated snow right next to the hole you have created. Once the snow has settled a bit, take some downed branches, place them between the two mounds of snow, cover with tarp, and then shovel more snow on top. Will insulate like a quinzee but much quicker to build.

A third option would be to purchase a kit, can't remember the name of it, but it speeds up the building of a quinzee. Basically, it is a canvas form that you buckled up as the snow depth increases. As you pile around the edges, one person walks on that show. Once packed, you shovel snow to the next set of buckels, and repeat the walking. Once it is built to the top, you only have to wait a short time to hollow out. In fact if done correctly, when you break through the hard outside layer, the inside should be basically unpacked and easy to remove.
 
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