Okay, its darn cold out and that stokes the fire of mental adventuring. Today I have explored deeper into the forum and landed upon a new question for you. Now that I am considering a double bladed kayak style paddle, what time advantage will I gain over a single bladed traditional paddle. Thanks.

You might want to go to the Gear Forum and check out the many replies to a current post; "Kayak Paddle for solo? or no?"

Hans Solo

Great thread, I was there and learned a lot of good information about equipment...the takeaway insight that I should try a few before purchasing. Which is my intent this spring. In the mean time I assume travel time can be similar to tandem paddling if not faster?

quote MacCamper: "Great thread, I was there and learned a lot of good information about equipment...the takeaway insight that I should try a few before purchasing. Which is my intent this spring. In the mean time I assume travel time can be similar to tandem paddling if not faster? "

I wouldn't assume that. Look at it this way: With a tandem you have two motors. With a solo you have one. The double blade may allow you to run the single motor twice as fast to travel the same speed as a tandem, but there is payment for that. You expend twice as much energy and your muscle work twice as hard.

In rough water (waves on lakes) it is harder to control your canoe with a double blade. With a double blade you need to stroke on one side and then the other. What if you need to do most of your strokes on one side because of wind or waves? What if you need to do several correction strokes on one side, especially rapidly? Also look at your top hand position on a double blade -- it is not condusive for correction strokes. That is why I recommend to also carry a single blade if you decide to use a double.

You may be able to keep up with a tandem but you need good travel conditions and be able and willing to expend the physical effort.

My 2 cents.

I actually find the double blade to have great advantages in rough waters. I've traveled with my 80# dog and realized how much more energy that took. But was able to keep up with tandem paddlers. It seems like you'd spend more energy but actually it isn't to bad. I agree you might expend more energy, but not double. You just balance how you expend it. Partly with the fact your not correcting your direction with the ruddering part of the j type stroke, but your always moving forward. And if you really need to you can really extend the double paddle to give you a great advantage when the wind wants to turn you. This is just my opinion and two cents. :) A good solo boat does not take double the energy to keep up with a tandem boat imo.

Perhaps no time savings. Bannock summed it up well. If you arm paddle with a double blade you won't get the most power. It may be hard to visualize but it does take training to get the most power out of that double as it does with a single.

To the ab machine at the gym..! I have friends who paddle with a double blade in solos..lets call it dabbling. I can pass them easily with single blade sit and switch or sometimes even an occasional j stroke..

Sometimes with a double you do spend alot of time on one side only even with the blades unbalanced to correct for what the wind is doing to you. In that case it is easier for me to use a single.

Its all about your horsepower output..

Yes you can do a jstroke on one side with a double blade. It however comes with a free shower....

quote yellowcanoe: "Perhaps no time savings. Bannock summed it up well. If you arm paddle with a double blade you won't get the most power. It may be hard to visualize but it does take training to get the most power out of that double as it does with a single.

To the ab machine at the gym..! I have friends who paddle with a double blade in solos..lets call it dabbling. I can pass them easily with single blade sit and switch or sometimes even an occasional j stroke..

Its all about your horsepower output.."

I would agree. In simplest terms; "garbage in, garbage out". My wife is a prime example of this. I've tried to train her to use her upper body and rotate at the waist more when using a double instead of "arm paddling". Nevertheless, she's a "dabbler", as yellow canoe described.

Having paddled kayaks almost as long as I've paddled canoes, using a double-bladed paddle correctly is somewhat second nature to me versus others who are first making use of a double for the first time.

For what it's worth, here's a link regarding proper flat-water technique.

Flat water kayak paddling

Hans Solo

I've only traveled along with a tandem while I paddled a solo (wenonah advantage)with a yak paddle one trip. I could more than keep up with the guys in the tandem. But they had a Q17. A sleeker tandem might be different.

quote HansSolo: "

quote yellowcanoe: "Perhaps no time savings. Bannock summed it up well. If you arm paddle with a double blade you won't get the most power. It may be hard to visualize but it does take training to get the most power out of that double as it does with a single.

To the ab machine at the gym..! I have friends who paddle with a double blade in solos..lets call it dabbling. I can pass them easily with single blade sit and switch or sometimes even an occasional j stroke..

Its all about your horsepower output.."

I would agree. In simplest terms; "garbage in, garbage out". My wife is a prime example of this. I've tried to train her to use her upper body and rotate at the waist more when using a double instead of "arm paddling". Nevertheless, she's a "dabbler", as yellow canoe described.

Having paddled kayaks almost as long as I've paddled canoes, using a double-bladed paddle correctly is somewhat second nature to me versus others who are first making use of a double for the first time.

For what it's worth, here's a link regarding proper flat-water technique.

Flat water kayak paddling

Hans Solo"

However I will keep my friends as I am sure you will keep your wife. Thanks for the link.

quote nctry: "I actually find the double blade to have great advantages in rough waters. I've traveled with my 80# dog and realized how much more energy that took. But was able to keep up with tandem paddlers. It seems like you'd spend more energy but actually it isn't to bad. I agree you might expend more energy, but not double. You just balance how you expend it. Partly with the fact your not correcting your direction with the ruddering part of the j type stroke, but your always moving forward. And if you really need to you can really extend the double paddle to give you a great advantage when the wind wants to turn you. This is just my opinion and two cents. :) A good solo boat does not take double the energy to keep up with a tandem boat imo."

+1 Agree with everything you say, especially in wind.

There are actually a lot of factors which make the discussion muddied.

1. The block coefficient of whatever log you are paddling. High BE makes for better tracking..less yaw. Usually longer length to width ratios make for more straight trackers.
2. Your paddling technique with the double. Is it forward or do you carry it past your hip?
3.Do you use big muscles ie back and abs or do you arm paddle
4. Are the paddle blades light and less prone to make you tired?
5. Hull length. The higher potentially the better.
5a. If you dont have the horsepower to drive the skin go shorter.

I only wish that I spent more time going forward..with a double. On Lake Superior I spent a good time just keeping course this summer. Speed didn't matter at that point. Staying upright in control did.

And to end I think that solo boats have to fit the paddler. The paddler skill is way more important than the particular boat. Understand the waves, wind and how they will affect your craft and you will do well.

I remember way back to paddling a kayak with a Dagger Quintus. Might as well have paddled with a stick with concrete at each end.

I paddled across Alton last August in my my Prism with a double blade with 2-3 foot rollers. Not fun at all, but I'm glad I had a kayak paddle. Really quick and easy to switch to either side, and the canoe felt really stable, all things being considered. My sphincter got a real workout though, as I thought I would dump a few times. I don't think I would have made it without dumping with a single blade - too slow and not as quick to maneuver with the rollers. I had to do a 3 second 90 degree turn to the right with the wind to aim towards the portage to Sawbill, and there is no way I could have done that with a single blade, at least with my level of experience with using a single blade in a solo canoe. Those with more experience in solo canoes using single blades may/will likely disagree.

Tomster

quote nctry: "... Partly with the fact your not correcting your direction with the ruddering part of the j type stroke, but your always moving forward. And if you really need to you can really extend the double paddle to give you a great advantage when the wind wants to turn you ... "

With all due respect, a double blade does not keep you going forward. Each stroke actually takes you off course one direction and the next stroke takes you off course the other direction. It evens/averages out but you do not travel in a straight line.

The same may be said about the single paddle, but because the single paddle is done right next to the canoe (ie closer to the center line of the hull) rather than farther away from the hull like the double blade, the effect is much less pronounced. You may get 3 or 4 strokes per side before switching, thus the sit & switch method. If paddling for speed in a solo this is the preferred style. It would all be power strokes and the J stroke would not be used.

Each brings their own experiences and sharing is what this forum is about. I tend to agree with nctry and others the double blade offers advantages that make it my paddle of choice even in some tandem situations. This is based on my experience.
After tandem partners moved away I did not paddle for few years then got into kayaking not knowing about solo canoes. I have used the double blade for the past 17 years and have confidence in my stroke. On calm water I can push pretty hard keeping a straight line with clean cut at the bow. And that is on my magic with only a couple months paddling before the ice set in. I was also able to cross at various angles some one and two foot rollers during a "getting used to the new equipment" session one afternoon. I would have liked to have a little more weight on board that afternoon, but generally felt in full control of direction with little loss of course due to wind or wave.
On my last trip a solo using single blade sit and switch passed us nearly like we were sitting still. He clearly had lots of experience and watching his smooth stroke and switch was art in action.
So, liker HansSolo notes, it is what you have experience with. And the more you paddle the more experience helps you develop what works for you. Just keep paddling.

quote Bannock: "


With all due respect, a double blade does not keep you going forward. Each stroke actually takes you off course one direction and the next stroke takes you off course the other direction. It evens/averages out but you do not travel in a straight line.


The same may be said about the single paddle, but because the single paddle is done right next to the canoe (ie closer to the center line of the hull) rather than farther away from the hull like the double blade, the effect is much less pronounced. You may get 3 or 4 strokes per side before switching, thus the sit & switch method. If paddling for speed in a solo this is the preferred style. It would all be power strokes and the J stroke would not be used."

I don't agree with this at all, I have a mounted compass and it doesn't move much at all, at least in my Magic, now double blading in the Flashfire is a completely different story, but I still think you would be VERY hard pressed to see any noticeable difference between the two provided the boat is a well tracking unit, I also should note this is with a 240-250cm paddle at a mid angle stroke, not a 280 done way out, that would change things as well.

I much prefer my yak paddle in a wind. I don't know the scientifics of it, I just know I feel much more confident and safe with a double blade handling a big chop. I will try to stay three quarters to it and give myself a little more length (of the paddle) and dig in more on the side away from the wind.

Double blade.

I gain no more than 10% speed when using a double blade and that only lasts for a few hours. After that both give the same speed. I believe that I can paddle further in a long day using the single blade only vs using a double blade only. Best is to use both if paddling a long day.
I'm a single blader by experience but reach for the double blade when I need that burst of speed or in shallow water.

quote Bannock: "

quote nctry: "... Partly with the fact your not correcting your direction with the ruddering part of the j type stroke, but your always moving forward. And if you really need to you can really extend the double paddle to give you a great advantage when the wind wants to turn you ... "

With all due respect, a double blade does not keep you going forward. Each stroke actually takes you off course one direction and the next stroke takes you off course the other direction. It evens/averages out but you do not travel in a straight line.


The same may be said about the single paddle, but because the single paddle is done right next to the canoe (ie closer to the center line of the hull) rather than farther away from the hull like the double blade, the effect is much less pronounced. You may get 3 or 4 strokes per side before switching, thus the sit & switch method. If paddling for speed in a solo this is the preferred style. It would all be power strokes and the J stroke would not be used."

I hear what your saying. It's not my experience though with the boat I currently paddle. What your saying is dead on when I'm able to paddle my Old town from the stern with my load trimming the canoe properly. Then a double blade would do exactly what you describe. I do see in this discussion that there is a lot of personal preference and that things that work for some doesn't work the same for others. A lot to do with technique and some to do with boats. I suppose in my solo boat I don't reach out as far as I should with my single blade to make my blade go down near the boat as you describe. I have no problem with that from the rear. I may not paddle right for the purest crowd, but I've paddled hundreds of miles and have never had trouble keeping up or holding a straight course with what I do. I have to agree with BeaV about using both the double and the single. That works good for me too. I can go as far with either paddle, it just takes me longer to get there in my solo boat using the single blade. I hope I made sense, I'm kind of tired and sometimes I talk in circles when I'm tired.

quote nctry: "... Partly with the fact your not correcting your direction with the ruddering part of the j type stroke, ..."

there's your problem right there

I can't imagine using a single blade when sitting in the middle of a solo canoe. For an old fart, I can make that Prism fly.

quote joe47: "I can't imagine using a single blade when sitting in the middle of a solo canoe. For an old fart, I can make that Prism fly."

Sit and switch works so well with a narrow dedicated solo..It takes practice a bit.

But that is the beauty of the solo canoe. It responds well to various styles of paddling.

Lots depends on the weight of the blades on a double.. Heavy ones make far more work. If you have thin light blades there is less swing weight.

Overall I am with BeaV. I do do both for a mix of muscle work but far prefer single. Especially in a decked ruddered canoe.

I bring both and use the double for traveling and the single for fishing. In a wind I much prefer the double. I haven't used my single for traveling since 2009 and remember some tough times against the wind. For me the double has more horsepower. Could be I'm just relatively inexperienced with the single.

quote TomT: "I bring both and use the double for traveling and the single for fishing. In a wind I much prefer the double. I haven't used my single for traveling since 2009 and remember some tough times against the wind. For me the double has more horsepower. Could be I'm just relatively inexperienced with the single.


"

+1. Same here. For most of us average paddlers, I think having a double into the wind on travel days is a distinct advantage over a single paddle . But I like the single when I'm fishing the shoreline or structure, not so much when I'm trolling around....