This will be my 17th straight year up to the BWCA. We camp on a border lake that the top part is in Canada. We have never run into a ranger from US or Canada in all my years. We purchase all our permits for the BWCA side and camp on the MN side. However, we do venture into the Canadian side and do get out of the canoe to hit a few of the good fishing spots. I purchase a Canadian Fishing LIC and I have a Canadian sportsman Card. I do not fish with live bait.

So my question.... Am I legal in Canada? I am bringing my sons, ages12 and 10, this year and would like to be as legit as possible. I have even gone as far as to bulk purchase some barbless hooks and will change them out on some of my lures that I will use in Canada. ANY ADVICE and what is the worst that could happen?

Thank you!

you also need a Remote Area Border Crossing permit. RABC this allows you to be in canada which is what you need before you go fishing over there.

Beside the rabc permit which is just $30/year (actually about $22 US with the exchange rate as it is now) for all of you, it doesn't hurt to have their birth certificates along. They like to know that they are YOUR kids. I have been checked more on the CDN side than the US side.

You're crossing an international border - twice. RABC passes for you and kids (parent and dependents can be on one IIRC) to cross into Canada like Mocha said; but also need passports or WHTI equivalent for all of you and stop at US customs on way back. You said Canada, and if not a provincial park like Quetico, you're OK with just all that. If Quetico, then you need a Q (day) permit as well.

Or continue to be an international outlaw and hope you don't get caught.

quote N8theFish: "... and what is the worse that can happen?"

The worst that could happen if you were caught in Canada without the RABC or a Queico permit? Probably a very long-term ban from entering Canada. I don't know what the consequences would be from the US side, but I wouldn't want to take a chance.

There is a really comprehensive summary re the requirements for Quetico at the top of this Quetico Forum.

Will I need to purchase a Canadian Fishing LIC for the boys?

quote N8theFish: "Will I need to purchase a Canadian Fishing LIC for the boys?"

I believe that the answer is NO, but what they catch will be counted toward your Sport (not Conservation) license limit. Here are the relevant paragraphs from the Ontario fishing regulations:

"For Non-Canadian Residents, a complete and valid license to fish consists of an Outdoors Card or a Temporary Outdoors Card accompanied by a valid fishing license tag for non-Canadian residents. The Outdoors Card is a plastic, wallet-sized card valid for three calendar years and used for identification and administration purposes. The license tag is carried either as a document separate from the Outdoors Card or printed on the back of the card when the license tag and Outdoors Card are purchased or renewed at the same time. Note: Outdoors Cards are not required with 1-day licenses.

Non-Canadian residents under 18 years of age may fish without a license if accompanied by a person who has a valid Sport Fishing License. Any fish kept are part of the catch and possession limit of the person who holds the license. As another option, non-Canadian residents under 18 years of age may purchase an Outdoors Card and fishing license tag to have their own limits."

By the way the full set of Ontario fishing regs can be found here: Ontario fishing regs

Remember that if you are only traveling along the border and the portage happens to be on the Canadian side, you need no additional permit, nor any other RABC as long as you do not camp nor fish there. The same is true for our friends the Canadians when the border portage is on the US side.

Well I was in a similar situation this year on a border lake--(Crooked Lake) except I was in Quetico/Canada on purpose.

Canadian float plane dropped down on us and checked our licenses and Quetico permits. We were in order, they almost seemed disappointed as they were busting Americans fishing over the border all day I guess. They told us fines ranged from a couple of hundred per person to several thousand.

They didn't check our RABC said that was immigration---didn't even want to look at our RABC as it "wasn't their area" but did say the fines would be worse for illegal border crossing than fishing/park violations.

T

Thanks for that report. Good to know there is some enforcement. And that crossing borders us a completely separate issue from park permits and fishing.

I commend N8theFish for questioning his previously-held assumptions and asking the questions he did. They are useful questions. Thank you, too, Timatkn, for the information that fines can be very substantial. Last night I started to think about the intangible consequences. Whenever a US citizen deliberately ignores Canada's laws, it just adds to the anecdotal database that supports negative impressions of Americans and can lead to more restrictions and enforcement efforts, the latter driving up costs. Imagine, too, how a child's opinion of his/her parent might be affected when that child learns that the parent has chosen to ignore a law just because it is inconvenient. Or the loss of respect from one's peers. The last two things are worse than the fines.

The RABC in itself is not enough to just cross over in the Quetico / Canadian side to fish and check things out. Having a Canadian fishing license and outdoors card also is not enough.

You are also supposed to get a day permit from one of the ranger stations as well. So, if you are camping on Iron lake and wanna go check out Rebecca Falls, you are techinically supposed to paddle all the way to either the LLC ranger or the PP ranger first to get a day permit. I imagine you might be able to get a blank permit on your way in and fill it out the day you cross over?

quote Kiporby: "The RABC in itself is not enough to just cross over in the Quetico / Canadian side to fish and check things out. Having a Canadian fishing license and outdoors card also is not enough.

You are also supposed to get a day permit from one of the ranger stations as well. So, if you are camping on Iron lake and wanna go check out Rebecca Falls, you are techinically supposed to paddle all the way to either the LLC ranger or the PP ranger first to get a day permit. I imagine you might be able to get a blank permit on your way in and fill it out the day you cross over?"

Not a blank one but I think you can get one for a specific day in advance of that day.

I suggest again to try not to mix up RABCs with Quetico. An RABC is in fact all you need to cross the border. Three different governmental agencies on each side of the border - international borders, parks, and fishing. Sometimes you need to deal with all six, sometimes only one or two.

What do you think of the idea about renting a canoe from the outfitter that has an Ontario provincial parks permit. Then would we only need our Canadian fish LIC, RABC, and sportsman card? Along with passport and obeying fishing regulations.

quote N8theFish: "What do you think of the idea about renting a canoe from the outfitter that has an Ontario provincial parks permit. Then would we only need our Canadian fish LIC, RABC, and sportsman card? Along with passport and obeying fishing regulations."

We work with an outfitter. We discuss our plans with them in advance and they have made the Quetico and BWCA reservations for us. We still have to go to the Quetico ranger station to pick up the permits. Is that the sort of thing that you had in mind?

quote N8theFish: "What do you think of the idea about renting a canoe from the outfitter that has an Ontario provincial parks permit. Then would we only need our Canadian fish LIC, RABC, and sportsman card? Along with passport and obeying fishing regulations."

In Quetico PP or in crown land? In Quetico everyone is required to have a permit. I'm less sure of crown land regulations but think there is some connection between renting from an outfitter.

We could offer more specific advice if you said over the border in or not in Quetico - some of both north of BWCAW.

If you are in crown land by the border and have a RABC permit you can access crown land without a permit,but can't camp on crown land without purchasing a crown land permit,they are pretty cheap.

If going thru Canadian outfitter than?

quote billconner: "

quote Kiporby: "The RABC in itself is not enough to just cross over in the Quetico / Canadian side to fish and check things out. Having a Canadian fishing license and outdoors card also is not enough.

You are also supposed to get a day permit from one of the ranger stations as well. So, if you are camping on Iron lake and wanna go check out Rebecca Falls, you are techinically supposed to paddle all the way to either the LLC ranger or the PP ranger first to get a day permit. I imagine you might be able to get a blank permit on your way in and fill it out the day you cross over?"

Not a blank one but I think you can get one for a specific day in advance of that day.

I suggest again to try not to mix up RABCs with Quetico. An RABC is in fact all you need to cross the border. Three different governmental agencies on each side of the border - international borders, parks, and fishing. Sometimes you need to deal with all six, sometimes only one or two.

"

You can't go into the Quetico with just an RABC. You need both a RABC and a valid permit whether it is a day permit or a multi day permit.

So, if I'm on Knife Lake on a BW permit and I have a RABC I can't just go touch the Canadian shore of Knife Lake unless I've gotten a day permit from either PP or Cache Bay.

quote Kiporby: "

quote billconner: "

quote Kiporby: "The RABC in itself is not enough to just cross over in the Quetico / Canadian side to fish and check things out. Having a Canadian fishing license and outdoors card also is not enough.


You are also supposed to get a day permit from one of the ranger stations as well. So, if you are camping on Iron lake and wanna go check out Rebecca Falls, you are techinically supposed to paddle all the way to either the LLC ranger or the PP ranger first to get a day permit. I imagine you might be able to get a blank permit on your way in and fill it out the day you cross over?"

Not a blank one but I think you can get one for a specific day in advance of that day.


I suggest again to try not to mix up RABCs with Quetico. An RABC is in fact all you need to cross the border. Three different governmental agencies on each side of the border - international borders, parks, and fishing. Sometimes you need to deal with all six, sometimes only one or two.


"

You can't go into the Quetico with just an RABC. You need both a RABC and a valid permit whether it is a day permit or a multi day permit.


So, if I'm on Knife Lake on a BW permit and I have a RABC I can't just go touch the Canadian shore of Knife Lake unless I've gotten a day permit from either PP or Cache Bay."

True but you can use an RABC to enter Canada north of BWCAW and not be in Quetico. Entering Canada remotely does not mean you are entering Quetico.

quote N8theFish: "What do you think of the idea about renting a canoe from the outfitter that has an Ontario provincial parks permit. Then would we only need our Canadian fish LIC, RABC, and sportsman card? Along with passport and obeying fishing regulations."

i don't know any outfitters that have that but I think that would work. I think you can purchase the pass yourself. It is more expensive than a day pass but you don't have the hassle of paddling to a permit station way out of the way. When in doubt call the park though.

T

You can use the portage on the border on the Canadian side without a permit.

Thank you all for your input, and I think you are making it more complicated than it should be.

The answer I was looking for I think timatkn answered best. I had already gotten a hold of my outfitter to see if they had a canoe with an OPP and see if it was an option.(they have not answered yet)

Let's just say we are on Crooked Lake. The question I was asking was "Would an OPP vehicle pass allow me to do a day trip on the Canadian side without limiting myself to a particular day or days if I went with a Quetico day pass. This also would give anyone in my party the option to travel into Canada if they had the other proper paperwork without having to buy a separate Quetico day pass. Correct?

Thank you for everyone's input and continue to post if you have any other ideas.

One year we came back with an unlucky group that had a ranger come up on their camp. They had paper trash in their fire pit, but no fire. They proceeded to get a $300 fine. I am jut trying to get educated and possibly educate, so no one else does something than can easily be avoided.

I don't know what you mean by OPP or OPP vehicle pass.

Quetico has both Daily Vehicle, and for your area its called an Interior pass and is $17.00 Quetico also has a Summer Vehicle Permit $125.00. Based on what I've read, these are issued to "the person who holds the licence" ab suggests it's tied to a specific vehicle - which may be a canoe. I've never heard of an outfitter buying one for other than one specific customer, but possible.

Here are all the fees and permits and such for 2015.

PS: Just call the park office and they can tell you exactly what you are expected to have and, if there is a program that allows outfitters to share a day vehicle pass, probably tell you which ones have bought it.

OPP = Ontario Provincial Parks..... vehicle pass

Thanks billconner

I will have 9 people in my group this year. We will be camping on the MN Crooked lake side(having all our permits). However, we will venture to the Canadian side during the day, and I am trying to get 100% legal. Since we do not know the weather and everyone will not go over every day I am trying to figure out an inexpensive way for anyone in my group to be able to take the trek over to Canada without all buying day passes for all 7 days. That would be more expensive than buying a $125 OPP vehicle pass(for the canoe)and just using that canoe as a daily option for whoever wanted to venture into Canada. Obviously they would need a RABC and Canadian Fish LIC if they were fishing.

Does a person that is not camping overnight in Quetico, and ventured into Canada legally on a OPP vevicle permit, and has a RABC, Do they still need a Quetico Daily permit?

Any more thoughts?

quote N8theFish: "...One year we came back with an unlucky group that had a ranger come up on their camp. They had paper trash in their fire pit, but no fire. They proceeded to get a $300 fine. I am jut trying to get educated and possibly educate, so no one else does something than can easily be avoided."

Holy crap! $300 for having paper trash in the firepit?? Seems a bit extreme. Was that all they did? I guess I'd better get out of the habit of leaving my burnables in plain sight in/near the firepit....

quote N8theFish: "OPP = Ontario Provincial Parks..... vehicle pass

Does a person that is not camping overnight in Quetico, and ventured into Canada legally on a OPP vevicle permit, and has a RABC, Do they still need a Quetico Daily permit?

Any more thoughts? "

No, the pass is the same as your daily permit.

quote N8theFish: "This will be my 17th straight year up to the BWCA. We camp on a border lake that the top part is in Canada. We have never run into a ranger from US or Canada in all my years. We purchase all our permits for the BWCA side and camp on the MN side. However, we do venture into the Canadian side and do get out of the canoe to hit a few of the good fishing spots. I purchase a Canadian Fishing LIC and I have a Canadian sportsman Card. I do not fish with live bait.

So my question.... Am I legal in Canada? I am bringing my sons, ages12 and 10, this year and would like to be as legit as possible. I have even gone as far as to bulk purchase some barbless hooks and will change them out on some of my lures that I will use in Canada. ANY ADVICE and what is the worst that could happen?

Thank you! "

So, now that you've gotten a wealth of information, do you plan to become a member of the site?

quote Mocha: "So, now that you've gotten a wealth of information, do you plan to become a member of the site?"

MOCHA,

Thank you for your concern about being a member. I have always been a member, but I couldn't remember my user name. n8roar and N8theFish are one in the same.

Thank you all!

quote PineKnot: "

quote N8theFish: "...One year we came back with an unlucky group that had a ranger come up on their camp. They had paper trash in their fire pit, but no fire. They proceeded to get a $300 fine. I am jut trying to get educated and possibly educate, so no one else does something than can easily be avoided."

Holy crap! $300 for having paper trash in the firepit?? Seems a bit extreme. Was that all they did? I guess I'd better get out of the habit of leaving my burnables in plain sight in/near the firepit... "

I would bet the $300 that there was more to the story. I simply do not buy that explanation. Since it was a second hand report I would bet the rent their violations were much more significant.

I am a trusting soul. How much is your rent? haha

quote GraniteCliffs: "

quote PineKnot: "

quote N8theFish: "...One year we came back with an unlucky group that had a ranger come up on their camp. They had paper trash in their fire pit, but no fire. They proceeded to get a $300 fine. I am jut trying to get educated and possibly educate, so no one else does something than can easily be avoided."

Holy crap! $300 for having paper trash in the firepit?? Seems a bit extreme. Was that all they did? I guess I'd better get out of the habit of leaving my burnables in plain sight in/near the firepit... "

I would bet the $300 that there was more to the story. I simply do not buy that explanation. Since it was a second hand report I would bet the rent their violations were much more significant. "

Maybe aluminum foil etc.-seen some pretty disgusting fire pits in Quetico.

quote GraniteCliffs: "

quote PineKnot: "

quote N8theFish: "...One year we came back with an unlucky group that had a ranger come up on their camp. They had paper trash in their fire pit, but no fire. They proceeded to get a $300 fine. I am jut trying to get educated and possibly educate, so no one else does something than can easily be avoided."

Holy crap! $300 for having paper trash in the firepit?? Seems a bit extreme. Was that all they did? I guess I'd better get out of the habit of leaving my burnables in plain sight in/near the firepit... "

I would bet the $300 that there was more to the story. I simply do not buy that explanation. Since it was a second hand report I would bet the rent their violations were much more significant.

"

For Quetico? I believe that story. There aren't warnings and they tend to maximize fines from what I heard. Not complaining. Just different than the BWCAW where enforcement is more geared towards education than fines, while Quetico is more education through fines and spread the word.

T

So I got an answer back on the annual vehicle permit questions:

"Yes - a seasonal vehicle permit can be switched between canoes for day use - as long as each canoe has a permit when they are in the park, you are good.

Yes - anyone can operate the canoe with the permit - as long as each canoe has a permit when they are in the park, you are good.

Just an example to clarify:

Party "A" has 4 canoes and wants to come into the park for the day on July 3rd - they would need 4 permits.

Party "B" has 4 canoes and wants to come into the park for the day on july 7th - they could use those same seasonal permits that party "A" had."

I don't know if outfitters have seasonal permits they allow their customers to use or not. I doubt the ranger I asked would answer that.

So buy a seasonal for your group and see if you can sell it here or anywhere to recoup some cost.

Billconner thanks for the leg work. I like the idea of paying the $125 and then having freedom to do whatever whenever during day.

I will throw this out for discussion.

I got a response from my outfitter. No canoe with permit. However, they said Quetico is no longer issuing day passes. If I have my BWCA permits for overnight in MN(and camp there), and have a RABC and Canadian fish license for day tripping(no camping). I will be fine.

Is there a difference between "FINE" and "LEGAL"?

quote n8roar: "Billconner thanks for the leg work. I like the idea of paying the $125 and then having freedom to do whatever whenever during day.


I will throw this out for discussion.


I got a response from my outfitter. No canoe with permit. However, they said Quetico is no longer issuing day passes. If I have my BWCA permits for overnight in MN(and camp there), and have a RABC and Canadian fish license for day tripping(no camping). I will be fine.


Is there a difference between "FINE" and "LEGAL"?"

If I have my BWCA permits for overnight in MN(and camp there), and have a RABC and Canadian fish license for day tripping(no camping). I will be fine.

You may be right but sounds like something is missing. No park sticker at all for day trips?

quote n8roar: "Billconner thanks for the leg work. I like the idea of paying the $125 and then having freedom to do whatever whenever during day.


I will throw this out for discussion.


Is there a difference between "FINE" and "LEGAL"?"

If your outfitter is right that would be great, but my personal experience is yes there is a difference between fine and legal---meaning you most likely will never get checked or caught so the outfitter says it is fine. I'd call or email the Park to make sure. That would be nice if you didn't need day permits though.

T

If I were a bookie, I'd say chances of getting dinged for no permit are substantially greater than getting dinged for no RABC.

If you're in the park, you should have a permit. Up to you.

I'm a little unsure about the "...they said Quetico is no longer issuing day passes". They list them in the recently published 2015 Fees

quote billconner: "If I were a bookie, I'd say chances of getting dinged for no permit are substantially greater than getting dinged for no RABC.


If you're in the park, you should have a permit. Up to you."

Agree, never been asked for an RABC but been checked for the other stuff 3 X now. One time on Crooked, Ted, William.

Again I'd call or email about the day permit. Outfitters are great but a few give outdated or bad advice about the border because it is unlikely you will get stopped. I can tell ya from experience that it is intimidating when a float plane drops in on ya even when all your paperwork is up to date.

What I've heard is if you ever get caught without an RABC the fines can be substantial. Essentially you crossed an international border illegally. That could run into the thousands of dollars, short term imprisonment, gear confiscation/loss etc... I don't know anyone personally that was caught so it is all here-say but I don't plan on testing it :)
Plus if the Canadians alert the U.S. you might be subject to fines and prosecution form both countries. Plan for the worst.

T

Been checked by Quetico Rangers numerous times and always super friendly and a good chat.

quote Pinetree: "Been checked by Quetico Rangers numerous times and always super friendly and a good chat."

Yes they were friendly, but when 2 guys come walking out of a float plane with guns it is intimidating none the less.

T

quote timatkn: "

quote Pinetree: "Been checked by Quetico Rangers numerous times and always super friendly and a good chat."

Yes they were friendly, but when 2 guys come walking out of a float plane with guns it is intimidating none the less.


T"

I always met them usually in the spring and often they were clearing portage trails and checking campers as they went along. They got to know me over the years and even invited me to come winter skiing in Atikoken(sp) in the winter. Have not made it yet.

<

quote timakn
Yes they were friendly, but when 2 guys come walking out of a float plane with guns it is intimidating none the less.


I truly doubt that they got out of the float plane guns drawn, they are law enforcement officers and yes they have guns, are you intimidated every time you see a police officer because they have a gun?

I will be purchasing the vehicle pass. Better to be safe than in jail sorry. I will be using the permit end of August and first of September. Any body interested in getting one with me? 50/50

If you apply for a RABC, your spouse and children can be included on the application. Basically they vet only you. It's easy and relatively inexpensive. In 25 years I've run into one US agent and two Canadian. The Canadians were responding to a bear complaint on a portage. They were not checking papers. My impression has been that the Canadians have a much smaller operating budget for managing the Quetico than the BWCA budget, which is privately endowed in addition to state and federal funds.
Dave

Dave65,

This has been the question that I have discussed throughout the post. I want to be legal, not just fine. I am getting the RABC no question, but the gray area was instead of getting individual day passes for my group and being limited to those specific days is there another option without having 7 adults needing to buy individual, multiple day, day passes.

My Alternative: If I bought a vehicle pass for my canoe($125) it would supersede the need for a Quetico day pas per individual and allow anyone any day in that canoe to be LEGAL in the Quetico.

Do you agree?

I agree in that I think your conclusion is correct about the summer pass, but I believe you can buy the vehicle day passes still, that are $17 (by the way - this is all CA $ - $0.73 US today), and buy one for each day you might want to go. Depends how many days and how likely you are to enter CA on all of them. My math says more than 7 days you're better of with a season - and maybe more than 3 or 4 if you can split the cost of the seasonal with anyone else. You can probably get three in a tandem for a day trip with no gear, 4 in an 18'. Not bad.

I think in same situation I'd just do the first half of trip in Quetico - camp and all - but that's not inexpensive for a larger group than my usual two.

Your maybe legal with the pass,do you have to sign in or registor for that time period?

quote mutz: "<


quote timakn
Yes they were friendly, but when 2 guys come walking out of a float plane with guns it is intimidating none the less.



I truly doubt that they got out of the float plane guns drawn, they are law enforcement officers and yes they have guns, are you intimidated every time you see a police officer because they have a gun?"

I guess I thought this was obvious but let me explain. We were in a spot where no one else was around. I have been checked by Q rangers before---they don't wear guns. The the plane lands and 2 guys get out with guns....Yes it is intimidating when people approach in a way you aren't expecting in a foreign country, in the middle of no where, wondering why you are getting pulled over by a float plane (never seen that before either) The situation is intimidating not the officers.

To answer your other question about police... I am not because I expect them to be carrying and I am in my own country. Different situation. Apples and oranges.

T

quote mutz: "<


quote timakn
Yes they were friendly, but when 2 guys come walking out of a float plane with guns it is intimidating none the less.



I truly doubt that they got out of the float plane guns drawn, they are law enforcement officers and yes they have guns, are you intimidated every time you see a police officer because they have a gun?"

You don't think its intimidating to be in a canoe and some cops in a float plane come down just for you in the middle of the wilderness? That's like having a SWAT team make a traffic stop. Yes it would be intimidating.