Officially signed up the troop for a crew to go to Northern Tier in 2018.

I really wanted to go it alone through an outfitter, but the troop wanted to use N. Tier.

Tossing around minimum requirements for the boys. I don't think all the parents appreciate the difficulty with High Adventure. Given the fact that we will probably only bring 2 adults, need responsible prepared scouts.

1) Swimming Merit Badge complete
2) Camping Merit Badge
3) First Aid Merit Badge.

The one thing about N. Tier that bothers me is they won't let me use my own boat. I have to pay full price regardless of the gear I own!

Anyway if anyone has used N. Tier let me know your thoughts or experiences.

Our troop requires First Class rank for High Adventure. We've been pushing at least one scout in each crew attend Wilderness First Aid.

For BWCA (we don't do Northern Tier), we require at least one weekend canoe campout. Practice flat water paddling, portaging, cooking. We usually end up camping at state park with lake and faking a portage by hiking with canoe & pack along road or through field. Should set up significant distance to feel for need of conditioning.

This trip lets the scouts know who can paddle and who can't.

We push conditioning on own - hiking with weighted pack, weight training, long aerobic work - to get ready for portages. Doesn't always work but we try.

For NT you'll need to supply at least 2 current WFA cardholders.

Can't wait to hear how it turns out. I've been on base, which is probably the closest I'll come to being a participant during soft water season. I'd be up to doing Okpik there, though.

For us Wilderness First AId is one of the biggest challenges.

Limited opportunities locally
Full weekend commitment (at least the BSA Council classes)

Ours are good for two years so I recommend getting the class in as soon as possible.

quote dm45244: "Our troop requires First Class rank for High Adventure. We've been pushing at least one scout in each crew attend Wilderness First Aid.


For BWCA (we don't do Northern Tier), we require at least one weekend canoe campout. Practice flat water paddling, portaging, cooking. We usually end up camping at state park with lake and faking a portage by hiking with canoe & pack along road or through field. Should set up significant distance to feel for need of conditioning.


This trip lets the scouts know who can paddle and who can't.


We push conditioning on own - hiking with weighted pack, weight training, long aerobic work - to get ready for portages. Doesn't always work but we try."

Those are good practices. Will have to look at them. We do have a a ton of scouts in the troop (90) need to look at how to control it.

quote dm45244: "For us Wilderness First AId is one of the biggest challenges.


Limited opportunities locally
Full weekend commitment (at least the BSA Council classes)


Ours are good for two years so I recommend getting the class in as soon as possible.
"

I have CPR a week from today and WFA at the end of Feb. It's a 2 day class, luckily my college roommate lives 2 minutes down the road from the camp and I can crash his place.

Perhaps NT sets this, but isn't there a minimum age requirement too? I seem to recall I had to be 13 to go to Philmont.

We made our boys in the troop have canoeing MB prior to the trip. That way they knew the basics of paddling and how to portage and the parts of the canoe.

We do have a a ton of scouts in the troop (90) need to look at how to control it.
"

We had somewhere around 30 scouts & about a dozen adults in 5 crews last summer. Real emphasis on working as crews during practice campout as well as planning so we had 5 or 6 scouts per 2 or 3 adults. Advisors should be pushing crew leaders to lead (like patrol leaders and SPLs). More manageable when you focus on crews rather than one big mass.

From your first post, not sure the size of group actually going to NT vs rest of troop. During practice campout, while BWCA crews worked as crews, non- BWCA had semi-separate campout focused on other activities.

I was a long time staff member at northern tier (back in the 80's), and I am currently a professional scouter. What I would say is this, when you go through Northern Tier you are getting the same high quality gear and food that you would get through an outfitter but you are also getting an "interpreter" to go on your trip with you.

Why do you need and interpreter? Not really for safety, or not getting lost, thousands of people do trips in the BWCA that will have far less experience than you or your scouts. But the interpreter adds to your trip. If you think back to how the scout program works, bobcats look up to bears who look up to webelos who in turn look up to tenderfoots who look up to first class, who look up to stars....lifes....eagles. You get the idea. You are bringing your best most experienced scouts on the trip of a lifetime, and the interpreter is what makes it a trip of a lifetime. They get to see a scout, living a scouts dream, a summer in the woods! Most of the staff at Northern Tier first came as a scout, and because of the interpreter, wanted to come back and follow the dream!

I know, I was a scout, I was an interpreter. I have letters from past scouts that were on my trips 30 years ago, I have even had a couple look me up on facebook after decades. They all say the same thing, the trip was great, but the interpreter is what made it a once in a lifetime experience.

I will now get off my soapbox......

quote Jaywalker: "Perhaps NT sets this, but isn't there a minimum age requirement too? I seem to recall I had to be 13 to go to Philmont. "

Since 2010, 14, or 13 and completed 8th grade.

quote OldFingers57: "We made our boys in the troop have canoeing MB prior to the trip. That way they knew the basics of paddling and how to portage and the parts of the canoe. "

Thought of that as well. I'm currently in the process of becoming a Canoeing MB, but the BSA doesn't make it easy.

I'm currently certified in paddle craft safety, but to become a MBC I have to become a paddle craft safety instructor.

Canoeing MB counselors are very rare in our area because of the BSA requirements, no one wants to put in all the effort. I will get it, but it's going to take time.

Another issue is trying to find a place where we can practice the skills needed, you can't swim anywhere in the area on lakes or ponds, make's it difficult to practice how to deal with a swamped canoe, and how to right an overturned boat.

I am taking the boys on a Wisconsin river trip this year, and I convinced the other leaders to make it less of a distance trip and more of stopping at some sand bars to allow them to practice these skills.

It is 14 as a minimum, my son turns 14 1 day before the troop would enter. (assuming we get our lottery choice). He has been on 3 trips with me already and a 4th coming up this year, so I'm not worried about him.

There will be required pre-trip paddling sessions, I'm leaning toward 1st class as well.

quote CrookedPaddler1: "I was a long time staff member at northern tier (back in the 80's), and I am currently a professional scouter. What I would say is this, when you go through Northern Tier you are getting the same high quality gear and food that you would get through an outfitter but you are also getting an "interpreter" to go on your trip with you.


Why do you need and interpreter? Not really for safety, or not getting lost, thousands of people do trips in the BWCA that will have far less experience than you or your scouts. But the interpreter adds to your trip. If you think back to how the scout program works, bobcats look up to bears who look up to webelos who in turn look up to tenderfoots who look up to first class, who look up to stars....lifes....eagles. You get the idea. You are bringing your best most experienced scouts on the trip of a lifetime, and the interpreter is what makes it a trip of a lifetime. They get to see a scout, living a scouts dream, a summer in the woods! Most of the staff at Northern Tier first came as a scout, and because of the interpreter, wanted to come back and follow the dream!


I know, I was a scout, I was an interpreter. I have letters from past scouts that were on my trips 30 years ago, I have even had a couple look me up on facebook after decades. They all say the same thing, the trip was great, but the interpreter is what made it a once in a lifetime experience.


I will now get off my soapbox......"

Not against the interpreter, just takes up a spot a scout could take......

Our troop is planning for a 2018 BWCA trip. What is the northern tier cost per person?

quote TomP: "Our troop is planning for a 2018 BWCA trip. What is the northern tier cost per person? "

Iirc, and the NT website shows a broken link to the page on costs, around $100 per person per day. 6-8 in a crew (+ interpreter = 3 per 3 canoes - $685 a day) and I think that is the aluminum price, Kevlar more. And of course that is not transportation there.

We're about 10 hours away and take a group almost every year, 6 nights, 8 or 9 total, under $500 each last year, rent royalex, 2 per canoe, transportation, and all meals in route and there. About half of cost is transportation.

So cost difference of an outfitter to NT is not insignificant. We all have to weigh the value of each approach.

quote Corsair: "

quote OldFingers57: "We made our boys in the troop have canoeing MB prior to the trip. That way they knew the basics of paddling and how to portage and the parts of the canoe. "

Thought of that as well. I'm currently in the process of becoming a Canoeing MB, but the BSA doesn't make it easy.


I'm currently certified in paddle craft safety, but to become a MBC I have to become a paddle craft safety instructor.


Canoeing MB counselors are very rare in our area because of the BSA requirements, no one wants to put in all the effort. I will get it, but it's going to take time.


Another issue is trying to find a place where we can practice the skills needed, you can't swim anywhere in the area on lakes or ponds, make's it difficult to practice how to deal with a swamped canoe, and how to right an overturned boat.


I am taking the boys on a Wisconsin river trip this year, and I convinced the other leaders to make it less of a distance trip and more of stopping at some sand bars to allow them to practice these skills.


It is 14 as a minimum, my son turns 14 1 day before the troop would enter. (assuming we get our lottery choice). He has been on 3 trips with me already and a 4th coming up this year, so I'm not worried about him.


There will be required pre-trip paddling sessions, I'm leaning toward 1st class as well.
"

Our Council camp has canoeing and other watercraft MBs so we had the scouts get it thru there. If you ever want to go to a different camp come out to Loud Thunder Scout Reservation in Illowa Council. Only 2 1/2 hrs from Aurora. Easy to get to just take I-88 to the Quad Cities. We also offer a lot of other great merit badges and offer hand gun shooting, along with black powder shooting.

quote OldFingers57: "

quote Corsair: "

quote OldFingers57: "We made our boys in the troop have canoeing MB prior to the trip. That way they knew the basics of paddling and how to portage and the parts of the canoe. "

Thought of that as well. I'm currently in the process of becoming a Canoeing MB, but the BSA doesn't make it easy.



I'm currently certified in paddle craft safety, but to become a MBC I have to become a paddle craft safety instructor.



Canoeing MB counselors are very rare in our area because of the BSA requirements, no one wants to put in all the effort. I will get it, but it's going to take time.



Another issue is trying to find a place where we can practice the skills needed, you can't swim anywhere in the area on lakes or ponds, make's it difficult to practice how to deal with a swamped canoe, and how to right an overturned boat.



I am taking the boys on a Wisconsin river trip this year, and I convinced the other leaders to make it less of a distance trip and more of stopping at some sand bars to allow them to practice these skills.



It is 14 as a minimum, my son turns 14 1 day before the troop would enter. (assuming we get our lottery choice). He has been on 3 trips with me already and a 4th coming up this year, so I'm not worried about him.



There will be required pre-trip paddling sessions, I'm leaning toward 1st class as well.
"

Our Council camp has canoeing and other watercraft MBs so we had the scouts get it thru there. If you ever want to go to a different camp come out to Loud Thunder Scout Reservation in Illowa Council. Only 2 1/2 hrs from Aurora. Easy to get to just take I-88 to the Quad Cities. We also offer a lot of other great merit badges and offer hand gun shooting, along with black powder shooting."

It's always an option for summer camp, just would like to be able to teach it myself! Just not the options around here to do it.

Your idea of a Wisconsin river trip is a good one - I have also used that trip to help prepare scouts for a BWCA trip. Not sure how familiar you are with canoe camping on the Wisconsin but just in case, here are a few suggestions. First, I highly recommend putting in at Muscoda and paddling down to Boscobel. This stretch is far less busy than Sauk to Spring green. Much less of a party crowd as well. The competition for sites can get pretty intense on hot summer weekends and with the college kids doing what they do, it can distract you from practicing the skills the scouts will need in the BWCA.

Muscoda has a nice village park with camping right at the launch so you can travel the evening before and camp at the launch and get on the water early. The bridge at Blue River gives you a landmark at the half way point to help you know when to start looking for a campsite. You can get to the half way point in a few hours, so you'd be setting up camp in the early afternoon leaving plenty of time for skills practice, fishing, swimming and enjoying the sandbar. Most years we will not see or hear other groups from our campsite. We have worked with Wisconsin River Outings in Boscobel. They will the adults drop cars at the launch in Bosc (1 adult stays in Muscoda with the scouts) and shuttle you back to put in. That way, when you are done, the car is right there and you can pack up and go.

Exactly what we did! Camped in Muscidae park, used the outfitter. It was a long weekend so we headed for Wyalusing Park. Loved the side trip up the Kickapoo to Wauzeka - lunched and filled water jugs.

I have done the Wi myself.

The only concern I have is coming around the Jetty at Boscobel to get in.

That is tricky for inexperienced paddlers.

Thanks for the names of the parks! We plan on heading up Friday and camping then meeting the outfitter at the launch point.


On another note, I didn't get my NT lottery! We have to discuss an alternate date with a Tuesday launch now.

quote Corsair: "I have done the Wi myself.


The only concern I have is coming around the Jetty at Boscobel to get in.


That is tricky for inexperienced paddlers.


Thanks for the names of the parks! We plan on heading up Friday and camping then meeting the outfitter at the launch point.



On another note, I didn't get my NT lottery! We have to discuss an alternate date with a Tuesday launch now.



"

You can always land at the landing on the upstream side of the bridge.

I too wanted to skip the NT route, but our troop wanted to earn tripple crowns. That said, it was one of the best Bdub trips I have done as an adult. Our interpreter pulled us dads aside and said, "On this trip, you are guests. Unless there is a safety issue, you have the scouts do everything. They cook, they clean, they set up camp. Your job is to relax and enjoy the trip." Of course we washed dishes etc. but we volunteered to do it (as good guests would)' but we were not on the duty roster.

Only one MAJOR negative. The food is awful! When I make another NT trip, I will pack my own food, or pack for the group. Yes, Hudson bay bread is fantastic, but pasta with gravy and MRE meat that was bad in WWII is not a good meal.

Our troop took two treks to the Bissett Manitoba NT base last summer. My original plan was to go into the BWCA NT base, but our group sizes were such that we were just a little too large; the Manitoba base allows for groups up to 11 people.

Originally I too was not a fan of the interpreter requirement as it does remove one of the spots that could be used by a scout. I called NT a couple of times to see if it was possible run through their program without an interpreter, or for me to qualify as an interpreter such that we could open up the additional slot for a scout. As expected, this was not an option.

When recruiting scouts for the trip, I discussed the option of going through an outfitter vs. going through the official Northern Tier program. The major selling points for this option were:
1. Extra slot will be available for a scout
2. Total cost: total "all-in" cost would be somewhere between $400 and $500. (Cost including travel, hotels, and BSA fees for our NT Bissett trip was ~ $1350/person driving up from Ohio).
3. Did not feel we needed an interpreter as I've been leading BSA/Quetico trips since 1991 and have plenty of experience with taking kids and new people.
4. If we self-guide, we could put 2 scouts/canoe instead of the 3 scouts/canoe NT uses.

As it turns out, our interpreter did end up being exactly as Corsair described - - - a definite highlight of the trip. While I know that the boys would have had a great time letting me arrange a BWCA trip through an Ely outfitter, it is clear to me now that going through the official NT program and using their interpreter added greatly to our trip.

Our interpreter, Brian, got along great with each of the scouts in our trek, and every one of them looked up to him. Getting to canoe for the day with Brian (vs. me or the other adult leader) was definite highlight for the scouts. I was extremely impressed with how our interpreter was able to provide the scouts with positive feedback along with some very difficult to hear constructive criticism that the scouts needed to hear. Without a doubt, there were some outstanding life lessons taught and learned this trip thanks to our interpreter. On the way home after the trip, our most senior Eagle Scout in the trip told me, "I want to be a Brian". He is now seriously looking at making scouting a professional career based upon what he experienced during the trip.

Here are a few thoughts after spending a couple of years planning and then finally executing this trip:
1. I am glad that we went through the official NT program even though the cost was more than double what we could have done through an outfitter.
2. The float plane ride in the Manitoba NT canoe base was a definite highlight for the scouts.
3. Manitoba adds significant logistical issues (passports, travel time) and cost (float plane, extra hotel stays, etc.), but it was an awesome experience.
4. While we saw very few canoes at the Manitoba base, we saw a fly-in fishing camps and/or float planes just about every day. While much more remote than the BWCA, I've seen fewer people on Quetico trips.
5. It's good to share some pictures and videos with the scouts and leaders to set the expectations. Even after doing this, a couple of the scouts were a bit overwhelmed the first couple of days with the amount of paddling/portaging/work involved in the trip.

I'm looking forward to doing this trip again in another 13+ years when my grandsons turn 14!

Dave

Well,

The Trip is officially off sadly. With a group heading to Sea Base, and a group to Kilimanjaro, there was just to much going on.

Not to mention I found out I have to take summer courses for my Masters program next year.

I plan on trying again in '19!

Condolences. Maybe you can go yourself.

(Sorry for the long post) Bummer. Try again in '19. About half our troop thinks Philmont is the best high adventure but the rest name the Boundary Waters without hesitation. It is certainly the most "high adventure" and "wilderness" of the two.

For BWCA trips our Troop requires:
1. First Class or above
2. Age 13 or above
3. Canoeing, Camping, and First Aid Merit Badges
4. Attendance at all preparation events

When promoting all high adventure trips trip we list the preparation events and make them mandatory. For BWCA this includes a canoe campout (with canoeing, packing, portaging, etc.) to simulate an actual trip, fitness training, shakedown, food packing meeting, etc. (We have not gone through NT.) We reserve the right up front to drop a participant, without refund, who does not show to the mandatory prep events or does not prove themselves fit or prepared.

We have never had to drop a participant, but have threatened to a couple of times. The threat was enough to motivate them to "be prepared". We are reasonable if someone misses an event but can demonstrate they are prepared. For example, I had a Scout going to Philmont who missed the equipment shakedown. However, he was a very talented baseball player, informed us in advance he would miss the meeting, and sent his mom to drop off all his gear fully packed and prepared so we the rest of the crew could shake down his equipment. It was in great shape and the crew was confident in his preparedness.

Last year we took 5 crews with 42 total participants. The three older crews had 2 adults each. The two youngest crews had 3 adult participants.

As for Northern Tier, I have never gone through them. Our unit has a ton of canoe trekking experience and can self outfit all but the canoes, paddles, PFD's, etc.

However, I had the privilege of spending time with several of the Northern Tier staff at the BSA National Outdoor Conference the week before last. They were impressive. I would not hesitate to use Northern Tier in the future, particularly if your unit did not have a lot of canoe trekking experience. They have really modernized their equipment and program. My only recommendation is that you should do a minimum of 5 nights in the wilderness and more if you can.

Best of luck!

I coordinate the BWCA trips for our troop. We have not used NT but I have been told that they do a nice job.

Our troop requirements are similar to others:
1. First Class or higher
2. Have to be a Swimmer, as defined by BCA.
3. At least one scout and one adult (other than me) per crew must have their First Aid MB. (I have WFA so that is a bonus).

We are lucky because Dakota County Parks offers a entry to canoe and portaging class at Lebenon Hills Park. $75 total cost for all participants (usually 10 of us). They go over the basics; canoe parts, entry-exit, safety, strokes, paddle selection, decorum, did I mention safety, etc. If the weather is nice they even go over how to right a swamped canoe and work on techniques to get back in. Well worth the price of admission. They also work on portaging including how to pick up, carry and put down a canoe.

We have tried to use this as a camp out opportunity as well because there are several campsites at Lebanon Hills.

The above rules and prep have worked well for our troop so far.