Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Winter Camping and Activities :: Down Bag?
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Dances with Sheep |
quote tonyyarusso: " Having a "bib" of some sort for your breath helps a lot in that spot." +1 |
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DanCooke |
I use a Big Agnes Encampment15° as my inner and a Big Agnes Park series 15°. I would say synthetic outside and down inside. I wish i had planned better and had my zippers on the same side. I use a Exped Downmat 9 on the inner bag sleeve and a 1/2" closed cell foam pad in the outer bags sleeve. I use a fleece neck gaiter to cover my lower face and a fleece stocking hat on my head. I usually sleep in my base layer long underwear and socks with my Muckkmates over my socks. I made a supplex nylon top / sil nylon lower over bag, that is large enough to keep all my clothes in the over bag for quick retrieval. This past Wednesday 1/1/2014 I was sleeping on the ground with no overhead shelter at -35°. My first choice would be down inside synthetic on the outside, the other way works, as well from my experience, it just would not be my preference. |
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tg |
quote buz: "Also, make sure they are tied to something if it the littlest bit windy. Down bags can go a long way in the wind, trust me on this." sounds like a good story:) |
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Frenchy19 |
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Merlin |
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Frenchy19 |
Slept outside last night in my backyard and was certainly warm enough, although there was some frost from my breath. It shook out easy enough as it was cold enough to freeze, but if it is warmer I may be concerned about the moisture part. The bags are a Nemo Strato Loft (down) and a Big Agnes Whiskey Park. The Nemo has more space in it which is why I want that on the outside. I do have a couple of mummy bags that would probably fit just fine inside the Whiskey, but I do not like mummy bags, especially in the shoulder area as they are way to constricting. |
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PortageKeeper |
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butthead |
butthead |
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PINETREE |
I have used a Western Mountaineering Lynx rated to -10 degrees F.. Had it out to about 10 degrees above and no problem. For years I have a old slumberjack synthetic rated to -30 degrees F.. I have slept in it to a -35 degrees F. but also a a insulated snowmobile suit on also. I stayed nice and warm. I don't trust the temperature ratings too far. I think the newer ones ratings are a little better,but don't think for most people that rating would not be one your nice and toasty in your bag. One of the most important things is good insulation pad underneath you in the winter. |
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Soledad |
Now I use a -25 Western Mountaineering bag, and have been warm at -30. I do trust their temp ratings. |
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tg |
Agree with the recommendation for synthetic over/outer bag but it has to be big enough so as not to compress the down inner bag. If you have to unzip it and drape it over top. A good pad is critical. At minimum a combination of a closed cell foam pad and a thermarest. I rock a downmat 9 over a zrest but any closed cell foam would do. The closed cell pad also serves as insurance incase of puncture. tg |
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kanoes |
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butthead |
Slept in Lean1+ Article on winter sleep systems. butthead PS: Only out for 2 nites, but no trouble with bag (down), wetting. Might be a problem over a longer period of use. km |
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butthead |
butthead |
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Moss Tent |
A VBL can be used to good effect to keep moisture out of the bag. IMO if your body is producing enough moisture through sweat to ice up your bag, you are sleeping too hot--and if it's unavoidable, a VBL with a thinner bag can be the ticket. Also, when I had the privilege of using a friend's FF Snowy Owl bag in the -30's, there was no icing or condensation. Had merino underlayer on, it was a dream. I think the vast majority of moisture in the tent comes from breathing, and it piles up in an enclosed space. I always make sure to have good ventilation--usually when it's really cold, the air is so dry that if you vent the tent well, any ice tending to form will just sublimate. BTW I'm talking exclusively about cold camping in a tent. In snow shelters I have used mostly synthetics, because I usually find them damp--and warmer, so for the same weight bag you can get away with synthetic rather than warmer down. My 2 cents. |
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Merlin |
Why is this less likely with a two bag system? The only difference I see between a one and two bag systems is the ability to separate the bags. Both systems should function the same way in shedding (or not) shedding moisture. |
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PortageKeeper |
quote Merlin: "PortagKeeper... Well, you said it yourself... "My experience has been as tg describes. The moisture moves out and condenses and freezes in the outer bag." I have never had this problem with a single bag system. The moisture continues up to the rain fly. This especially holds true if you leave a candle lantern burn through the night (a whole new can of worms). Let's just say that 'it is my opinion' that the difference lies in the two added layers of rip-stop nylon, Pertex or whatever outer layers the second bag has. IMO, those two layers are a hindrance to the moisture that is trying to escape. To each their own. My choice is a one bag system. |
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tonyyarusso |
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buz |
The down bag story is actually a summer one. Buddy put the bag out to dry, was breezy, we got doing other things, look over, bag goooone. WTF, we see it floating in lake at least 250 + yards away, heading away from our spot, fast. Hop in canoe, took about 10 minute paddle to catch up with it. Was a little wetter then when we started, but actually not tooo bad. Luckily nice breezy sunny day that day dried it out. Tie in or weigh down for me from that day on. |
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tg |
quote buz: "TG, Nice, glad no down was harmed:) |
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Papinator |
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Arlo Pankook |
I think you have to go with whichever bag fits inside the other best. Anyone ever use an old sleeping bag around a pad for extra insulation? |
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PortageKeeper |
quote Merlin: "quote PortageKeeper: "quote Merlin: "Ive got to disagree with you PortageKeeper. My experience has been as tg describes. The moisture moves out and condenses and freezes in the outer bag. After several days my inner down bag has always been bone dry. My outer bag, not so much. If you are sleeping in an unheated shelter the moisture will always condense and freeze/frost on the outer part of your bag/bags. That's why I suggest a synthetic bag on the outside. Right, but the whole idea is for body heat to transfer moisture out beyond the surface of the bag. This is less likely to happen with a two bag system. A system that works as it should will not gain moisture, unless it is damp weather. |
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Doughboy12 |
quote Frenchy19: "quote Doughboy12: "My experiance Friday night: -22 degrees at 10pm Nope both are Synthetic...I am "allergic" to down. it makes me wake up all stuffed up so I don't buy down bags nor coats. It sucks for packing size but not if your gear gets wet. |
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Papinator |
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Doughboy12 |
quote tonyyarusso: "I use down for everything, even when double-bagging. I just brush any frost off in the morning and everything's fine. Anything frozen is on the surface, not in the down, so it doesn't matter. Having a "bib" of some sort for your breath helps a lot in that spot." ...And if you plan on being out for an extended period you would be surprised at how well direct sunlight will let things "dry" durring the day. |
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PINETREE |
quote Doughboy12: "quote tonyyarusso: "I use down for everything, even when double-bagging. I just brush any frost off in the morning and everything's fine. Anything frozen is on the surface, not in the down, so it doesn't matter. Having a "bib" of some sort for your breath helps a lot in that spot." That's what we do,hang them out if the sun is out,even if cold they will dry pretty good,just make sure your close by if it starts to snow or something so you don't end up worse than when you started. |
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Doughboy12 |
My gear: North Face 0 degree Elkhorn mummy INSIDE a 30+ year old off brand 30 degree large mummy. 2 leters of hot water in water bottle parkas in the bottom. Keep all but my outer wear on. As it warmed through the night I had to keep removing layers after first pulling the water bottles out of the bottom. I was TOO warm as the night went on and the temperature rose. It was -7 and blowing when we got up. I was NEVER cold in my bags. Edit: I have a thermorest acordian closed cell mat under a REI uninsulated 1" self inflating mat. |
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Frenchy19 |
quote Doughboy12: "My experiance Friday night: -22 degrees at 10pm Doughboy-Is this a down in a synthetic setup? |
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tg |
quote kanoes: "wouldnt it be better to have down outside the synthetic? zero chance of down compression there." not to dismiss the importance of compression but the primary reasoning for synthetic outside is to prevent wetting of your down bag. the outer layer is going to be where perspired moisture cools enough to freeze. when I use my -25 bag alone I get a frost on the outside of the bag (fortunately I have a hot tent to dry things out and keep me warm if I do lose performance from my bag...but most of my trips are short enough and my bag can afford to lose some degree of performance before it impacts my comfort). its preferable to have that moisture get trapped in your synthetic bag where it doesn't affect loft or performance as opposed to losing the loft in your down. the moisture resistant downs may be game changers in this respect. tg |
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buz |
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Lonelake |
LL |
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Merlin |
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Frenchy19 |
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PortageKeeper |
quote Merlin: "Ive got to disagree with you PortageKeeper. My experience has been as tg describes. The moisture moves out and condenses and freezes in the outer bag. After several days my inner down bag has always been bone dry. My outer bag, not so much. If you are sleeping in an unheated shelter the moisture will always condense and freeze/frost on the outer part of your bag/bags. That's why I suggest a synthetic bag on the outside. That is basically what I said... "That being said, if a person is to do it, use the synthetic bag on the outside. You are probably not going to get away with it for long though, as the outer bag is eventually going to act as a barrier, keeping moisture in the inner down bag" Once the outer bag has moisture that can freeze, it is no longer allowing as much moisture to escape from the inner bag. Most probably will skate by for a few days, but this is something that will eventually fail unless the outer bag gets a chance to dry out. |
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Ragged |
quote Frenchy19: " Don't forget that big hawg Nemo bag has the new Downtek water resistant down, might give you a little more peace of mind. |
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Merlin |
quote PortageKeeper: "quote Merlin: "Ive got to disagree with you PortageKeeper. My experience has been as tg describes. The moisture moves out and condenses and freezes in the outer bag. After several days my inner down bag has always been bone dry. My outer bag, not so much. If you are sleeping in an unheated shelter the moisture will always condense and freeze/frost on the outer part of your bag/bags. That's why I suggest a synthetic bag on the outside. Got it. However, that is nothing unique to a double bag system. If you don't get a chance to dry out a single bag it will eventually fail as well. I would argue that a lighter synthetic outer bag would be easier to dry than a winter rated single bag. |
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Frenchy19 |
quote Ragged: "quote Frenchy19: " Good point. We are only out for four nights, so unless it rains I should be okay no matter what I eventually decide. |