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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Bears lions and wolves and things
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| Author | Message Text | ||
| arctic |
The only places where you have a STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT risk of being killed by a predator are coastal Alaska/British Columbia (grizzly bears, especially during the salmon run), coastal Hudson Bay before the freeze-up (polar bears). Yes, there are occasional fatal encounters with black bears, cougars, grizzly bears in other areas, but these are VERY RARE. Even less-so for wolves. Your car and feral dogs pose a far greater risk to your panicking ass. |
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| LindenTree3 |
mastertangler: "that dog was up in a flash snapping and viciously barking at me. " I've always said that dogs are the best judges of character :-) Joking, I couldn't pass that one up MT. |
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| kickapooviking |
The author believes that bears in Alaska were more aggressive when men carried rifles. The theory is that carrying a weapon is a challenge conveyed by body language, particularly in places where humans are not at the top of the food chain. McPhee recommends taking a bowed, diminished attitude. Show respect and defer to the Master, and live... |
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| kickapooviking |
The author believes that bears in Alaska were more aggressive when men carried rifles. The theory is that carrying a weapon is a challenge conveyed by body language, particularly in places where humans are not at the top of the food chain. McPhee recommends taking a bowed, diminished attitude. Show respect and defer to the Master, and live... |
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| mastertangler |
kickapooviking: "Carrying weapons can actually provoke large predators into attack mode. This according to John McPhee's wonderful book "Coming Into The Country". Sounds like a boat load of hooey to me. I have a theory about not making eye contact with any animal that may be a threat or a challenge and it has to do with dog behavior that I have observed over many years. Have you ever noticed how the dominant dog when trying to show authority will seldom give the subordinate dog any recognition whatsoever. Its as if that other dog isn't even around. The dominant dog will put its head in the air, stiffen up and look the other way. I believe that animals have an instinctual fear of humanity. And in fact scripture backs that up (I will put the fear and dread of you etc. etc, ). So my thinking is when you avoid making eye contact you are actually sending the message that you are the superior and dominant one in the situation. On the other hand when you do make eye contact it is very likely you will telegraph your fear to the animal. I had this very thing happen at a New Years eve party. The host, a little blonde gal who probably weighed all of 90lbs had a huge black Shepard which easily outweighed her. The dog freely mingled with numerous guests. As the night wore on I remember sitting on a bar stool and observing the dog lying placidly in the hallway. I was recalling a hollywood movie where a big black shepherd terrorized a family. A tiny little shudder went down my spine as I was recalling the movie and looking at the dog...........that dog was up in a flash snapping and viciously barking at me. The host, totally perplexed at the dogs behavior quickly got things under control and was amazed at the dogs behavior stating that the dog had never acted that way. So, don't maintain eye contact to assert authority. Keep your head up but look askance is my thinking. A gun helps with the whole confidence thing but bear spray is a good second choice IMO. |
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| kickapooviking |
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| mastertangler |
kickapooviking: "Well, we're on the same page, my friend. Don't make eye contact, don't assert your machismo, defer to he who is highest on the food chain...and leave the guns at home." "Clarity over agreement" is a motto that I live by.........actually we are not on the same page. The only thing we agree on is not making eye contact. But I maintain that you not make eye contact to show your superiority. The last thing I want to do with a bear or a dog is to be subordinate and submissive. And if I were in Alaska in Grizzly country I wouldn't be caught dead without a firearm, no pun intended. |
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| mastertangler |
LindenTree3: "mastertangler: "that dog was up in a flash snapping and viciously barking at me. " Ha! You got me ;-) |
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| BnD |
mastertangler: " Cambridge Dictionary.....askance: to look at or think about someone or something with doubt, disapproval, or no trust: They looked askance at our scruffy clothes. I'm working on my askance look for my June trip to ward off any would be predators. Sounds fool proof. Darn it, I meant foolish. Just funning ya' MT. I had to look up your $0.50 word. |
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| ozarkpaddler |
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| missmolly |
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| Wick |
I believe animals are here for me to watch, enjoy, and eat them for my survival. If you believe in god,,they weren’t there first anyway,,man was. |
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| Wick |
missmolly: Well, I knew that even if they didn’t! Besides 5 firearms would be way to heavy! I have to save weight for ice, so two will have to do. I love animals too, but if they get mad and attack me because i am carrying a gun,,,,,, When did animals become democrates anyway? |
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| Selfsuffi |
Wick: "Lol,,,don’t carry a gun because it might make an animal mad? Well, i may carry two and really piss them off!" I think I am missing something....don't get me wrong as I am very pro gun and own several. But are we even allowed firearms in the BWCA? I understand carrying in Alaska in Brown Bear territory completely. I don't even have a problem if someone carries in the BWCA if it is legal. To be honest I have never noticed anyone carrying there before. |
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| TomT |
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| MatteMatt |
Wick: "MatteMatt: What other things would be brought for an emergency besides a first aid kit? Maybe I don't worry as much as I should. And I'm pretty sure it depends on how spicy the bear likes his food. |
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| MatteMatt |
Selfsuffi: "I think I am missing something....don't get me wrong as I am very pro gun and own several. But are we even allowed firearms in the BWCA? I understand carrying in Alaska in Brown Bear territory completely. I don't even have a problem if someone carries in the BWCA if it is legal. To be honest I have never noticed anyone carrying there before." Legal, and maybe some people carry them in packs where they can't be seen, but it's an extra couple pounds you're statistically never going to need. A small can of pepper spray is a lot lighter. |
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| Wick |
MatteMatt: Legal, and maybe some people carry them in packs where they can't be seen, but it's an extra couple pounds you're statistically never going to need. A small can of pepper spray is a lot lighter." Most people carry many things in packs that are for emergencies, and statistically will never be needed. Why do they carry those pounds? If a small can of pepper spray makes you feel prepared, that is what you should carry. Does a bear get mad when he sees you carrying pepper spray? Was there a chapter on that? |
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| Selfsuffi |
Oddly black bears don't scare me. Now a cougar stalking me or a hungry pack of wolves.....those I know will eat me. Those get the heart pumping. That said I wonder if I just jixed myself to be a bears' dinner come June 18th when I am in country....lol |
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| mastertangler |
TomT: "MT, the scriptures were written by men. Enough said. " You mean the actual physical process of the writing? Yes, we are agreed upon that. But the thoughts and words are Creator Inspired. Sort of like a secretary taking dictation. One has only to study the most popular and best selling Book of all time to understand it is not merely the musings of men. For one thing much of it is prophetic.........it foretells the future. So far, not one thing which was foretold has failed to come to pass. If it was written by a variety of "men" it would be littered with inaccuracies and contradictions. The number is legion which have attempted to prove the errancy of scripture and thus shipwreck the faith of untold millions. They have failed, Gods Word is true and it is His method for communicating in an effective and fair way to humanity. |
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| missmolly |
MatteMatt: "Wick: "MatteMatt: This is why I carry a ghost pepper. Small and lightweight. I swallow it as the bear charges. They always turn. They don't want to spend the night in Heartburn City. The only drawback is I have to spend the night in Heartburn City, but better there than the belly of a bear. Wick wrote: "Besides 5 firearms would be way to heavy!" Not if you go paddling with a Caterpillar P-5000 Work Loader* like I do, which also helps with portages! *Configured as an anthropomorphic exoskeleton power frame, the P-5000 offers unprecedented flexibility when handling ordnance and cargo during rough field operations. It also serves as a platform for conducting heavy maintenance away from fixed workshops. The Power Loader is able to multiply a human operator's strength and lifting capacity several thousand times[5] and is capable of manipulating loads up to 4,000 kg.[1] The P-5000 is a rugged and reliable alternative to conventional forklifts, rigs and cranes. The chassis of the P-5000 consists of a reinforced steel framework with two upper load-bearing points for the arms. A hydrogen fuel cell is mounted on the back of the frame, providing up to 65 kW of power for the loader.[6] The articulated legs are attached by two semi-universal bearings on either side of the base of the chassis, allowing up to 60 degrees of 'x' axis (hip swivel) movement; just below these are a set of knee bearings. Leg motions at the hip are controlled by a pair of 20 kW linear motors actuated via a fast-feedback loop slaved to the operator's movements. Below the hip, hydraulic actuators extend from the main load-bearing points to the aft sections of the legs, providing 'z' axis (fore/aft) movement at the knee joints while pitch control is handled by a second series of actuators at the ankles. To prevent toppling while stationary and under load, the chassis is gyrostabilized.[6] These gyros can be rotated rapidly out of phase in order to 'decouple' the chassis stabilization system along the determined axes of motion and provide the necessary instability required for bipedal movement. For very heavy lifting work, additional stability can be provided by bolting up to 250 kg of concrete ballast to the underside of the chassis.[7] The loader's arms are attached to the very top of the chassis by a pair of complex universal bearings stressed to operate under loadings of up to 4,000 kg.[7] Arm motions in the 'y' and 'z' axes are controlled by linear motors while movement in the 'x' axis and at the elbows is powered by a series of hydraulic actuators. The limbs mount a set of vise manipulators that are capable of full 360° rotation. Most common industrial storage mediums are fitted with uniform, purpose-made grips that can easily interface with the P-5000's claws. Typically, one jaw of each vise is placed under the object to be lifted while the other jaw clamps down on top of the object, holding it firmly and securely.[2] Manipulator function is controlled from an operator handgrip/joystick combination situated on the inside of each limb. Attachment points for additional tools (such as cutters and welders) are located on the manipulators.[7] |
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| Savage Voyageur |
Selfsuffi: "Wick: "Lol,,,don’t carry a gun because it might make an animal mad? Well, i may carry two and really piss them off!" I’m not advocating one way or another on this issue, just stating the facts since you are unaware of the law. Personally I will not bring one up there. If someone here wants to carry a weapon, by all means do it. It’s a personal decision and your right. If you can own a firearm in Minnesota than you can have one in the BWCA. If you have a CCW permit then you can conceal or open carry a pistol. You can also bring a shotgun or rifle to hunt. You need to be well away from any campsite when firing your weapon. That is the law, and fortunately no one in charge at Superior National Forest service or BWCA can change this. Now weapons into Canada is s totally different thing. No pistols and shotguns and rifles only for hunting season. |
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| Jackfish |
I'm in the Appleton area now. (Strictly coincidence, btw.) |
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| ozarkpaddler |
mastertangler: "TomT: "MT, the scriptures were written by men. Enough said. " Well said. I started the book last night (Four Seconds Until Impact). Hope it gets better. Not impressed with the first two chapters, but some of it can be attributed to the poor, bumbling record keeping of state and governmental agencies and the fact that it must be painstaking work for an author pulling needles out of haystacks. |
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| RTurner |
missmolly: "I was poking fun at Wick, not the critters, whom I love and admire. "Mismolly, a fellow Mainer and a wise@ss... Have to meet you sometime :) |
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| GearJunkie |
pswith5: "I am more afraid of spiders!" Agreed. I’m more concerned with getting bit by insects. Especially ticks. |
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| missmolly |
RTurner: "missmolly: "I was poking fun at Wick, not the critters, whom I love and admire. "Mismolly, a fellow Mainer and a wise@ss... Have to meet you sometime :)" So, you're a wise Maniac too? Cool! Happy to meet. I'm Downeast. You? |
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| billconner |
"What other things would be brought for an emergency besides a first aid kit? Maybe I don't worry as much as I should." One or two extra rolls of TP. |
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| analyzer |
johndku: "Driving to the BWCA from Ohio, I tell my kids the most dangerous part of our trip will be driving through Chicago." Driving period is definitely the most dangerous part of the trip. Regarding an increase in predator attacks on Humans. I find that to be similar to movies breaking the record for gross revenue. Well, there are probably more theatres today, than there were 30 years ago, and for certain, a movie is more expensive now, than it's ever been. So gross revenue records for movies will tend to continue to get broken over time. There are more people now than in the past. More people in contact with predators. More attacks. It's inevitable. |
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| riverrunner |
Here is a book I just read that has cataloged many incidents of human interaction with them. From Bob cats to the big bears. it is an interesting read. By Bruce Buckshot Hemming, 2017, 320 pages, paperback. Over the last three decades, attacks by large predators against humans have been skyrocketing in North America. It is not just a matter of reporting. Attacks by bears, mountain lions, wolves, and coyotes, have become expected, where they used to be rare or denied altogether. Book review |
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| Savage Voyageur |
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| mastertangler |
I read "Bear attacks causes and avoidance" in preparation for hiking in Glacier and it changed my entire outdoor life. Ignorance is truly bliss and I could of most likely went blithely on my way as I had been all these past decades without a care in the world and probably been just fine. I will probably get the book "just because" I find that stuff interesting. But it is not for the faint of heart. Some folks have gone through some rough road thats for sure. I always doubted the whole no wolf kills in North America anyways.........get a hungry pack in mid winter and there is probably not going to be much left of that deep woods trapper..........just another guy who "disappeared". |
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| riverrunner |
mastertangler: " I hope people find it interesting. |
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| ozarkpaddler |
mastertangler: "Hey, maybe I will put that on my Nook and read it while in WCPP.......on second thought ;-) If you buy only one book about bears, this should be it! Herrero is well respected and he did an excellent job with this book! I have an entire book shelf of "Bear books." After an experience with a bear in camp, I looked for everything I can read. Like any other "Apex" predator, the experts can define the norms; but, like people, they are all individuals and therefore unpredictable. I don't worry about it, because I know I will not exit this earth before my savior has determined will be my "Time." But I am more cautious in the wild, just as I would be in the "Bad" part of town. I don't "Carry," in the BWCAW, but I have had friends whom do. I'm good either way. Oh, BTW, as usual I took off in another direction! Riverrunner, that looks like an interesting book and since I have plenty of time right now, I'm going to buy it. Thanks for the link! |
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| riverrunner |
Savage Voyageur: "This might be true but I’m still not going to bring a gun to the BWCA. Too much hassle for the low risk for me. Now North Minneapolis, that’s another story. " There are a lot more human predators then animal predators |
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| johndku |
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| pswith5 |
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| treehorn |
I guess first is the website the OP's link takes us to is called "gun watch" and is basically a blog by a gun rights activist (Dean Weingarten), who reviewed the book. Weingarten has an agenda at that blog, full stop. As far as the book, I would need to read and see his evidence of the "skyrocketing attacks by predators on humans" to truly form an opinion, but it sounds dubious to me. I understand our population is rising and people are populating and hanging out in more and more areas where predators are present, but the word "skyrocketing" doesn't seem to fit with that. It's like he's implying the animals are becoming meaner and/or we need to cull them much more than we are. I don't know anything about this author, and I'm am not generally a conspiracy theorist, but I am sniffing something here that points to extremely pro-gun, pro-hunting propaganda. Note that I am not against either guns or hunting, but this strikes me as people that are creating a narrative that fits their agenda. I could certainly be wrong, but personally I'd rather read a book like this that was written by a naturalist or conservation expert. The best I can tell, the author of this book, Bruce "Buckshot" Hemming, makes a living selling trapping equipment and has written some fictional novels. |
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| nctry |
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| mastertangler |
BnD: "mastertangler: " Darn it BnD.........I am trying my best to dislike you as much as you do me but I just cant. Isn't there some sort of "syndrome" to explain it? I have spent a good deal of my life around high powered hunting dogs and things can get fairly intense at the tree where competition for ownership of the hopefully captured prey can get physical amongst the dogs. The dog in charge seldom makes eye contact with inferiors. But rather puts his head in the air and looks slightly away (askance as it were ;-) Maybe my observations are just pie in the sky. But then again so is everybody else's explanations because last I checked nobody bothered to ask the animal kingdom what they thought. Who knows why not making eye contact is the right way. My explanation is just as good as anything thing else out there and probably better. |
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| kickapooviking |
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| Wick |
kickapooviking: "Carrying weapons can actually provoke large predators into attack mode. This according to John McPhee's wonderful book "Coming Into The Country". Lol,,,don’t carry a gun because it might make an animal mad? Well, i may carry two and really piss them off! |
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| Wick |
kickapooviking: "Obviously, you're not open to the possibility that you are not the most important or dominant animal on a particular piece of ground. That's a problem with humans. Arrogance, exceptionalism, ignorance." Obviously, to me and my family, i AM more important then any animal, on any ground, and it will be the animals problem if they attack me. It would be ignorant to not be prepared. Being prepared will make me the dominate animal. Hopefully the other animals will be open to that,,,since they are evolving to human reasoning, according to your author. |
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| TomT |
kickapooviking: "Obviously, you're not open to the possibility that you are not the most important or dominant animal on a particular piece of ground. That's a problem with humans. Arrogance, exceptionalism, ignorance." I think guns changed the pecking order. Humans ARE at the top of the food chain when properly armed. I'm not a gun owner or hunter but if I'm vulnerable to attack I'll be packing to defend myself. |
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| missmolly |
Wick: "Lol... don’t carry a gun because it might make an animal mad? Well, i may carry two and really piss them off!" Carry five and make them livid. |
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| TomT |
missmolly: " Seems a little distrespectful to the animals who "were there first". I know you're joking but our culture has strayed so far from the native Americans who respected all things nature. I'm not being politically correct it's just a respect issue. We shouldn't go walking around lording our power over things. It's just having a mindset of respect for the creatures that inhabit the area we visit. |
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| mastertangler |
In the scriptures I am told that I have dominion over all that walks, creeps, crawls, flies, or swims. So yes, I have a perfect right to be here and in fact the planet was established as a home for mankind. So I have probably already lost 1/2 of you (lol) but "wait, there's more"! In scripture I am also commanded to be a steward and a caretaker over creation........it has been entrusted to us. We are not only to subdue it but carefully care for it as well. Some may call such a perspective as "arrogant". Fine, believe what you want. But, if I decide to state that the scripture is not the truth, and deny what the almighty has stated, am I not then a liar and an arrogant one at that? For who am I, a mere man, to correct what the Lord of hosts has said? Should I rather not agree and live? |
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| Captn Tony |
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| Selfsuffi |
Captn Tony: "I always carry a 50 caliber machine gun and grenade launcher in the back country. Just following the boy scout moto, (BE PREPARED)!" Just remember...no fishing with that grenade launcher....lol |
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| RTurner |
missmolly: "RTurner: "missmolly: "I was poking fun at Wick, not the critters, whom I love and admire. "Mismolly, a fellow Mainer and a wise@ss... Have to meet you sometime :)" I'm not very wise, but I do live in ME. Gorham. |
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| merlyn |
The only critters I'm afraid of in the woods are wasps and other people. |