Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Call from Recreation.gov
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AndyK2019 |
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Zwater |
Pinetree: "Always zero problem and very efficient picking my permit up at the Forest centers. Alsolike it for a little up to date info-like fire situation. Yes just like your outfitter you make friends with the same Forest service worker. Some been there 30 years plus." +1 |
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ozarkpaddler |
nooneuno: "ozarkpaddler: "Bushpilot: "DrBobDerrig: "" |
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scramble4a5 |
Has anyone else received a similar communication? |
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Jackfish |
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scramble4a5 |
Jackfish: "Scramble... could you post a copy of the email?" This is what I received: As you all may know, the BWCA permit reservations changed to a new system this year. The process of reserving and issuing permits for cooperators also changed. Due to this change, Echo Trail Outfitters will not be able to issue your permit for this season. They have required us to make changes that are not financially feasible. These changes not only affected Echo Trail Outfitters, but also affected other businesses as well. Your reservations for canoes, equipment, and bunkhouses with Echo Trail Outfitters are still intact. The only change is that we will no longer be able to issue your BWCA permit. The Forest Service should contact you to make other arrangements for your permit issuance station. If not, you may call the Ely Ranger Station at 218-365-7600. |
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riverrunner |
I am not sure bout his permit system most likely well take a year or so to get the bugs out |
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nooneuno |
ozarkpaddler: "Bushpilot: "DrBobDerrig: "I couldn't agree more. It used to be anything the government stuck their fingers in ended up bad. Now it is also the contractors. In most case you can follow the contractors connection back a politician. If you think you've met an honest politician, you've never met a politician...... |
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cyclones30 |
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ozarkpaddler |
Bushpilot: "DrBobDerrig: "I couldn't agree more. It used to be anything the government stuck their fingers in ended up bad. Now it is also the contractors. In most case you can follow the contractors connection back a politician. Exactly right. I would bet every penny in the bank that EVERY gov't "Contractor" could be traced back to a politician? |
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Captn Tony |
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airmorse |
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andym |
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thegildedgopher |
You can gripe about the usfs all day, but don’t forget to send a big thank you to this outfitter who took your money and failed to live up to their end of the deal. I’m not saying the forest service is perfect. But unless this outfitter attempted to be removed from the list of pickup locations on recreation.gov BEFORE permits went on sale, then I think they should be held accountable as well. |
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Pinetree |
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mirth |
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Andy1013 |
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scat |
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The Great Outdoors |
thegildedgopher: "Bushpilot: "thegildedgopher it is no secret Ely businesses feel like they get a bad deal from our public officials. For one example just google up forest service permit problems Ely echo, you will find many hits. I don't have the time to waste, you could answer your own question. Or do like I do listen to my friends that run businesses in Northern Minnesota. In Ely businesses are dropping like flies. Shopko, 2 Gringos,Wilderness Outfitters, etc...…………………Looks like more businesses will also be gone with the new permit system. Unjust criticism is uncalled for. As for you understanding, you really do not. Ely is not the first or last community that this has happened is true, however Government rules and regulations over the last 60 years have created the situation and this is undeniable. But let's take it a step further and apply these same regulations to another small mining town, Aspen Colorado. Take away one million acres from private ownership, remove all the resorts and private residences in that area. Then apply a 4,000 foot air ban, eliminate most ski slopes in what some consider wilderness, have a permit system for any ski slope allowed to remain open. Sorry gildedgopher, you really do not understand what one criticism of a small business can do to it's future. I've lived here for over 70 years, know the history well, and am willing to meet anyone that would like to discuss the history of Ely and it's surrounding area over a cup of coffee when they're in town. |
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Bushpilot |
As a business owner I can tell you Minnesota is far from best states to own and run a business in. What kind of business could a person open in Ely that would survive?? If I did own a business in Ely I won't bring up any beefs with the forest service on a public form like TGO does. Look what the feds did to TGOs bait shop. They busted up his shop looking for illegal minnows. No illegal bait was found. No reimbursement for property taken or for the property damage. TGO your 1st hand info is much appreciated as always, Thank You. Business a usual in Ely. |
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andym |
If it was the first choice, which is what they suggest on their web site, then it could be that they didn’t fully realize the cost of the new credit card processing equipment that they were going to need to use when people picked up their permits. VNO discussed needing to buy that equipment in the discussions of the new permit system. It would be good if they can get their web site updated. I see that they are still listed as a cooperator on recreation.gov. So this decision may be a work in progress and they notified their existing clients first. |
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bobbernumber3 |
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nooneuno |
scramble4a5: "Jackfish: "Scramble... could you post a copy of the email?" Also do not forget the Forest service keeps banker's hours (8am) compared to the outfitters.... |
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ddbb22ddbb22 |
I said this same thing in the Trip Planning section. Jiujitsubob had Lake One 6/6 revoked. I had Bower Trout 5/16 revoked. AndyK, when was yours for? |
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scramble4a5 |
thegildedgopher: "How long have the outfitters known about the new system and all associated requirements and costs? Yet this outfitter stayed in the system as a cooperator and led their customers to believe they could pick up their permits there, surely helping to generate revenue for their business? I don't disagree and it puts me in a bit of an ethical pickle in my opinion. I can find another cooperator to just get the permit, which is kind of not fair to them in my view. I can adjust our arrival time to get to the forest service office on time. Or I can switch to another outfitter which is my last choice since the one we chose is very close to our entry point. I'll figure something out but it is a mild pain to deal with. |
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DrBobDerrig |
Amazing screw-up dr bob |
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bwcadan |
DrBobDerrig: "That sound just great.....they should just ignore the limit for this one year and somehow figure it out for next year. Double edged sword. Will they also ignore Q style camping because of overloaded lakes without enough camp sites? It is well documented the need to claim a site by mid afternoon even with the numbers now permitted at any given entry point. |
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Bushpilot |
DrBobDerrig: "That sound just great.....they should just ignore the limit for this one year and somehow figure it out for next year.I couldn't agree more. It used to be anything the government stuck their fingers in ended up bad. Now it is also the contractors. In most case you can follow the contractors connection back a politician. This reservation center should have been located in Minnesota with people that care about Minnesotans. We do need jobs in northern Minnesota!! |
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The Great Outdoors |
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Bushpilot |
To think the forest service was put in place to manage all the money coming in from people using the federal land. Like logging, mining, etc…… To think at one time the forest service got enough money from Tomahawk Timber Company to support the entire superior national forest and it's projects. It is amazing how things change and people just sit there watching it all go down hill. I still have not got my refund from the first permit sale. We didn't get the permits we wanted in the second permit sale. |
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Pinetree |
riverrunner: "There are some things the government can do better and some things private contractors can do better. Years ago when the computer system first started I got like 3 permits for Snowbank lake when I only wanted one. Like 20 years ago. After that initial year always had good luck. |
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The Great Outdoors |
thegildedgopher: "How long have the outfitters known about the new system and all associated requirements and costs? Yet this outfitter stayed in the system as a cooperator and led their customers to believe they could pick up their permits there, surely helping to generate revenue for their business? Until you have run a tourism business near the BWCA and other similar areas, you will never understand. Government (both state and federal) rules, regulations, and new expenses can pop up at any time, surprising both the business and ultimately, the customer. The state of Minnesota stopped allowing sales at operations that didn't sell enough licenses (I believe $3,500) for the year, and removed their licensing equipment. The deposit for those businesses to use that equipment was $200. I have previously posted that more changes will come to BWCA users, such as cooperators dropping out, less permit numbers, limiting party numbers, tow boats eliminated, etc. With this said, please halt your criticism of a small business just trying to make it in an area that for over 50 years has been economically depressed by government regulations! |
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Pinetree |
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thegildedgopher |
I haven’t seen any proof that was the case. Feel free to enlighten me. The “you’ll never understand” argument gets tiring. I value the usfs and the outfitters and all of the work done by both to help us all enjoy this wilderness. I am completely willing to be objective and to listen to both sides. I am completely unwilling to listen to one party constantly complain about the other. |
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The Great Outdoors |
The you'll never understand argument is far more irritating to those trying to operate a business in an area heavily regulated, than it should be to the person complaining. (BECAUSE YOU'VE NEVER DONE IT) Want to prove me wrong, get in the business and let me know how easy it is! The outfitter DID NOT SAY the Forest Service wouldn't allow them to issue permits at their business, they said the hoops they must jump through and cost made them quit. I'm surprised more outfitters haven't said adios to the FS permit system If you need proof, go back in this forum and look at all the complaints as a result of the Government's permit system crashing earlier this year, and people having to reapply for permits they already were supposed to have verified. Then apply this to all the hoops that the outfitters must go through to issue permits. Not that easy as sitting at home and blasting some small business caught up in a poor system. Why not just stop at the Forest Service and pick up your permit, and save yourself an ulcer!! |
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thegildedgopher |
The Great Outdoors: "I assume the one party complaining about the other is you vs the Outfitter in question. Haha. You have years worth of complaining about the government and the usfs archived quite nicely here. The Great Outdoors: "The outfitter DID NOT SAY the Forest Service wouldn't allow them to issue permits at their business, they said the hoops they must jump through and cost made them quit. I'm surprised more outfitters haven't said adios to the FS permit system.” You were the one suggesting above using the “allowed” language (“the state of Minnesota stopped allowing sales at operations that didn’t sell enough licenses...”). I was simply asking for clarification on whether that was the case with this outfitter. It sounds like you were talking about fishing licenses, which is irrelevant to the specific discussion. I’ll say it again — those hoops were well defined months in advance. To allow their customers to make plans and spend money at their business and then pull the rug out after collecting is bad business. I empathize that it’s a tough business and change is hard. All the more reason to treat your customers — and potential customers — like gold. If you want to have an actual conversation you know where to find me. I’ll refrain from responding to any more of your fabulously biased diatribes. Good luck with your business ( and I mean that.) |
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flynn |
Here's hoping VNO doesn't get screwed and they can issue my permit the morning of the trip. |
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scramble4a5 |
andym: "Scramble, did you make the reservation and assign it to Echo Trail for pickup or did they make it for you as part of their service? I made the reservation and assigned it to Echo Trail. I spoke with Adam at Piragis yesterday and he said I could assign the permit to them and they would take care of it. A very nice offering on their part! |
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thegildedgopher |
Bushpilot: "thegildedgopher it is no secret Ely businesses feel like they get a bad deal from our public officials. For one example just google up forest service permit problems Ely echo, you will find many hits. I don't have the time to waste, you could answer your own question. Or do like I do listen to my friends that run businesses in Northern Minnesota. In Ely businesses are dropping like flies. Shopko, 2 Gringos,Wilderness Outfitters, etc...…………………Looks like more businesses will also be gone with the new permit system. I really don’t disagree with anything you say bushpilot. I just think it’d be swell if maybe someday this forum could get to the point where someone could be critical of one specific business in Ely for one specific bad move at one point in time, without having to endure a tirade about how hard it is to run a business in Ely and being told “you don’t understand.” I’m not an idiot. I understand. Ely is not the first or last community this has happened to. |