Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Winch for steep portages
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deerfoot |
mutz: "TrailZen: "Bushpilot: "I would think pulley system with 2 pullies and a rope one would pull. It would be easy to make or I am sure you could buy one. However it would be illegal in the bwca. It is a mechanical device take give you an advantage. Personally I could care less if someone used one." Yes, me too. Rangers observed it and said nothing. It never occurred to us to not use pulleys for hanging. |
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GraniteCliffs |
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mutz |
TrailZen: "Bushpilot: "I would think pulley system with 2 pullies and a rope one would pull. It would be easy to make or I am sure you could buy one. However it would be illegal in the bwca. It is a mechanical device take give you an advantage. Personally I could care less if someone used one." So have hundreds of others, we were checked by rangers while we were hanging our food using a pulley system and nothing was said. |
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RunningFox |
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Zwater |
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A1t2o |
GraniteCliffs: "Back to the original question: If I get to the point that I need to consider a pulley to get up that @^&%! rock slab on the Yum Yum portage I will give even greater consideration to abandoning canoeing or finding easier routes! I am old but nope, no winch for me. I completely agree but with exemptions. I've been on portages where there is a significant drop to one side. If something happens and I need to ditch the canoe, I'm not going to worry about someone's opinion if I use a pulley system or winch to get it back up to the trail. For the wheelchair issue, I think a person should be legal to use whatever medical assistance they require in any situation, but I also think that common sense should apply. If we are talking about a very simple portage that is flat and a wheelchair has no problem getting through, then good for them for getting out there. If it is not safe on a portage for a wheelchair though, I can see there being rules against using them. Sawbill to Alton for example is wide, flat and straight, but I would not suggest they go one portage further to Beth. I could also see a FS ranger giving a fine to someone for being dumb and attempting to do something that is potentially dangerous. |
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TrailZen |
Bushpilot: "I would think pulley system with 2 pullies and a rope one would pull. It would be easy to make or I am sure you could buy one. However it would be illegal in the bwca. It is a mechanical device take give you an advantage. Personally I could care less if someone used one." Oh, No!! I've been using pulleys for years, usually in a 2:1 configuration, for my bear bag system. Please don't turn me in! TZ |
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Bushpilot |
After all if we just reply with our thoughts and don't try to understand others we would never learn anything. I will also say I am not very good at putting my words in to thoughts and I appreciate others patience with that |
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A1t2o |
inspector13: "Note that the Wilderness Act prohibits “motorized equipment” and “other form(s) of mechanical transport”. Simple pulleys are not motorized, and within the context of the law, would not be a form of mechanical transport, like portage wheels would be. If simple tools like pulleys were illegal, wouldn’t wedges, levers, and the various examples of inclined planes also be? " I'm going to play devil's advocate here and point out that they did make the wheel illegal already when they said no portage wheels. Really though, transport is the key word here. A pulley system is not a form of transportation. If you did somehow rig up a giant pulley contraption to pull you across the lake or make it into an elevator then I would say that yes, that would be illegal. In this situation, a pulley is only being used to assist with an incline, not as a mode of transportation. |
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billconner |
" Mechanical Transport. Any contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by a living or nonliving power source. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. It does not include wheelchairs when used as necessary medical appliances." |
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firemedic5586 |
25 horse motor on a 21 Foot Lund Barron while on lets say Fall lake BWCA side, AOK. Same lake, same motor, but mounted on a pontoon boat; bring your check book because your going to get pinched. To quote @Bushpilot "How do you feel about wheel chairs in the bwca? Or a motorized scooter for a "crippled" person?" I'm pretty sure I know how the USFS feels. |
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Bushpilot |
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MReid |
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firemedic5586 |
Here is a link to an article regarding the USFS concerning walking trails and track chairs.. You can extrapolate (SP) to the BWCA. https://www.grandrapidsmn.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/access-denied-to-walking-trails-for-disabled-veteran/article_8a6041be-d4d6-11e5-95e2-6b77f57a9b92.html?fbclid=IwAR2qQK7cxbhfegZlK9JDcae38D54KAN0lfAM9mV9wCW5i9GRpBKGz-iHhoA#.VsTK0AmCobE.facebook Bushpilot: "MECHANIZED TRAVEL NOT ALLOWED |
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firemedic5586 |
nooneuno: "cabin fever......Now you guys have me picturing the FS rangers confiscating someones wheelchair, while stranding him on a portage trail." They may not confiscate it, but they'll fine them.. |
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Bushpilot |
In addition to the BWCA being motor-free, mechanized transportation is not allowed. This includes sail boats, sail boards, paddleboats, pontoon boats, bicycles, wheeled carts, and portage dollies. Mechanical assistance is only permitted over the following: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, and Prairie Portage. I have never read anything on wheel chairs one way or another. But a wheel borrow is banned even for portage repair, because it has a wheel. I guess it would depend on the fs worker. Witch is not a good idea for anyone. It should be spelled out. Could be a slippery slope. Motorized wheel chair okay? What if I want to use a wheelchair because I am a little over weight? Also leave your horse and pack mule at home. STOCK USE PROHIBITED * POSSESSING OR USING SADDLE, PACK, OR DRAFT ANIMALS, EXCEPTING SLED DOGS, ARE PROHIBITED ON ALL FOREST DEVELOPMENT TRAILS OR PORTAGE TRAILS EXCEPT TROUT LAKE PORTAGE. |
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deerfoot |
tg: "deerfoot: "USFS is a federal agency and the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) would apply to them as it requires reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities. Wilderness Experience in the Twin Cities has conducted wilderness trips for people with disabilities for decades in BWCA as well as many other wilderness areas." Interesting. Thanks for the clarification. |
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inspector13 |
The text for prohibited uses of wilderness areas states: “...there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.” Note that the Wilderness Act prohibits “motorized equipment” and “other form(s) of mechanical transport”. Simple pulleys are not motorized, and within the context of the law, would not be a form of mechanical transport, like portage wheels would be. If simple tools like pulleys were illegal, wouldn’t wedges, levers, and the various examples of inclined planes also be? |
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riverrunner |
Bushpilot: " And most likely legal to use. |
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inspector13 |
I’m addressing the use of pulleys for hanging food in the BWCAW, not AmarilloJim’s question which asks about portages in Quetico. I don’t know all the rules for Quetico and haven’t been there since 1984. As for use of the use of chain saws and such in the BWCAW, I bet all would agree those are “motorized equipment”. There is no text saying gas powered motorized equipment. |
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rtbaum |
Bushpilot: Mechanical assistance is only permitted over the following: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, and Prairie Portage. Just a rhetorical question....Would a wheel chair, mechanized or not, be legal on these portages? |
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MReid |
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nooneuno |
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deerfoot |
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Bushpilot |
Don't shot the messenger. like I said I could careless if you used a pully and winch system. My father was ticketed for illegal display of a flag in the bwca because it was hanging horizontal and not vertical. It was thrown out because it was BS by a "bad" forest services employee. I am just saying I have been harassed by the fs trying to get me on anything, dozens or times. I have never been ticketed for anything in any wilderness area. What about a battery operated Sawzall? Or battery chain saw? Neither are for transportation. |
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inspector13 |
Even though I’m not a lawyer, it would seem to me that both of those would be illegal in the BWCAW as the two Wilderness Acts are written, unless exemptions existed somewhere. I know Congress sometimes revisits the rules occasionally, like what happened in 1998 when they reopened two of the motorized portages. I haven’t heard of any other changes since then. |
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tg |
deerfoot: "USFS is a federal agency and the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) would apply to them as it requires reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities. Wilderness Experience in the Twin Cities has conducted wilderness trips for people with disabilities for decades in BWCA as well as many other wilderness areas." USFS and ADA |
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AmarilloJim |
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butthead |
Honestly I just pulled the canoe up belaying it in case of a slip. butthead |
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AmarilloJim |
butthead: "I feel a single pulley will do and the most I have used was a carbiner instead of a pulley. Thanks That's what I was thinking of doing |
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mirth |
I think that's a pretty far stretch you've taken, bush.... |
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Bushpilot |
How do you feel about wheel chairs in the bwca? Or a motorized scooter for a "crippled" person? |
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Bushpilot |
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AmarilloJim |
I think cabin fever has set in early this year. |
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jhb8426 |
AmarilloJim: "You guys are funny. ++2 |
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TrailZen |
Bushpilot: "So you are saying pulling a boat with pulleys and a winch across land wont be transporting it?? I personally think it would be transporting it. Don't shoot the messenger. like I said I could careless if you used a pulley and " Bushpilot, my attempt at humor (my use of pulleys for my bear bag hang) appears to have started snarky comments toward you; I apologize for the tone of my original comment. AmarilloJim, to address your original point (hopefully without getting further into the weeds), here's a Z-Drag setup that uses supplies that (in lighter form) most of us have with us on paddling trips, and does not use pulleys. TZ |