Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Fact - Opinion - BS
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butthead |
Well at least in my little world. And a shout out at Ben as long as I'm typing ( ok I have advanced to the 3 finger method) the old fart. butthead |
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Duckman |
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. On most everything else there is room for disagreement and good discussion! |
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thegildedgopher |
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Tomcat |
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LindenTree |
butthead: "I have watched Ben stir pots and he is very good at it. Agreed ;-) |
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bobbernumber3 |
I think the OP feels his fact(s) on some previous post have been "stomped on" by another person's perception of right and wrong. I had to check the OP's profile guessing he has been a member less than 2 years. That appears to be the fact. I would recommend to the OP to hang in with the group, continue to contribute your knowledge, facts, and opinions as best you can and don't worry about the occasional disagreement and other points of view. And a backpack is difficult to pull out of a canoe... IMO. |
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Northwoodsman |
There is enough stress in most of our lives and we come to BWCA.com for relief from that, for pleasure, to learn, and to communicate with others who have similar interests. I go back and look at older posts all the time and recognize a lot of names that aren't here today, I wonder what happened to them? Did they lose interest in canoeing, camping, fishing, etc.? Did they learn everything that there was to know? Do they not have time to post anymore? Or are they afraid to post because they are afraid of being attacked or starting a heated debate? I come here daily for information and for a wide range of opinions to help me make choices. It's my brief get-away from what's going on around me and my happy-place to dream about my next trip. In my opinion topics like this "clear the air" and make people think about their "tone" and reflect on the way that they respond. Thanks Tomcat. |
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mrballast |
1. Only post when adding something new to a thread or forum. A "+1" is a simple addition. 2 Be polite. 3. If something devolves to argument, disengage immediately. 4. Own mistakes, typos, misunderstandings if you cause them. ( And sometimes if you dont). To the OP: It is my opinion that everything is subjective, yet there is truth. Facts are true. Opinions come from the interpretations of facts. BS is an interpretation without a fact ...like a punchline without a joke. The first two are ok. Not the third. |
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riverrunner |
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Frenchy19 |
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straighthairedcurly |
Anything else is probably open to interpretation as being opinion in terms of how something performs for someone (waterproofness, durability, comfort, ease of use, stability, etc.). Most information I see on this site falls into this second category and you would just be argumentative if you tried to "correct" someone. I pretty much assume most of what I read is opinion. Granted it is opinion based on experience so I like reading it, but I take it with a grain of NaCl. |
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Tomcat |
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bobbernumber3 |
Spartan2: "YOU stirring the pot? Ben? Unthinkable. :-) I was hoping to hear again from the OP on this discussion. Several very good points have been brought up. What does OP find useful or interesting? |
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Blatz |
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Tomcat |
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Jackfish |
There are a few people here on the board who have truly studied and have strong knowledge of (for example) canoes, packs, tents, tarps, stoves, etc. These are the folks who's opinions mean the most to me. They've truly investigated the features and benefits of differing brands of similar products and made the best buying decision they could make. Doesn't mean their "right decision" is the right decision for me, but I'm surely going to weigh their thoughts carefully before I buy. If you have studied different gear items and see someone's post that is clearly wrong or you had a way different experience with it, post your differing viewpoint. Nothing is learned from folks who don't offer a knowledgeable counterpoint. |
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jcavenagh |
There was this one time I thought I was wrong..... but then I realized I was mistaken. ;-) |
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cyclones30 |
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Tomcat |
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jwartman59 |
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Ragged |
Most people are horrible debaters because they let their emotions get ahold of them while simultaneously ignoring facts. In my experience when someone is wrong they will often flat out ignore your reply and continue to spew misinformation. Then when you get on them about it, try to elicit a pointed rebuttal, people start to think you are badgering them, start telling you to give it up, like some sort of Internet forum “mercy rule” but that’s the funny part! Often when that happens, and it’s clear you have made your case to the vast majority, the person that is wrong still won’t admit it and still frequently sticks to their guns despite overwhelming proof that they have made a dumb statement. So in short it’s not worth it, they will almost never admit to being wrong and you’ll likely end up looking like a jerk trying to get them to say it...... not that I have any experience with that. |
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A1t2o |
No need to be even remotely concerned about someone else's experience contradicting yours, since there are many ways to do things. You aren't even trying to get the person with a different opinion to agree with you. The other readers that have not already made up their minds and are looking for advice are the ones you are trying to inform. You only need to be concerned about allowing others to be able to see more sides of the issue. After all this is not going to affect your trip, unless you end up learning something and end up changing things on your end because of the new information. |
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Spartan2 |
Most of our threads don't become contentious unless there is name-calling, or an effort to make someone feel stupid, uninformed, incorrect. Yes, a lot of BS goes on around here, but most of it is not harmful, even if sometimes we are very wrong in another person's opinion. :-) My husband and I did wilderness canoe tripping for 43 years before retiring to cabin weeks in 2014. We started out with NO gear, just a conglomeration of stuff we scrounged from friends and family. Ungodly wrong stuff. I actually did my first canoe trip with a little water-skiing belt instead of a real PFD! We bought gear, and in the four decades some of it was still in use at the end, and some had been replaced/removed/upgraded. We didn't always do things correctly by most people's standards but we had a wonderful time. It was a four-decade learning experience. |
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Tomcat |
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butthead |
Tomcat: "treehorn: "Can you cite any examples? Try Boot Sugestions as an example, a bit long but I got peeved with GearGuy and some misleading opinions. I too attempt to separate opinion and fact, and willingly admit I do not always follow what others prefer, tend to be specific if possible, and as I get older I am more willing to stretch politeness to establish a point. Absolutist statements just get me going. Good thing I prefer the hermit lifestyle! Tomcat, I have noticed nothing controversial in your posting. I admire your DIY abilities. Keep it up. butthead PS: Just noticed the deletion of your post in the DIY gear forum, I can be slow sometimes! Jump back in and keep posting, you have made a positive impact! bh |
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andym |
1) put your ideas out there and let people judge for themselves. Don't try to convince other people to the point where they post that they have changed their minds.. It is a waste of time and leads to arguments. But if your information is well put then it will convince a lot of silent readers who will use your ideas. 2) remember that a lot of people write very brief messages and may be leaving out key info. When info is left out it is probably best to assume that people mean standard BW use and reasonable tolerances under those conditions. 3) remember that there are a lot of people reading who don't post or may not respond to a particular message. The info you provide is getting used more than you may realize. |
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ZaraSp00k |
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drnatus |
If someone were advocating something truly dangerous.... take "I check for gas leaks with my lighter." (DO NOT DO THAT!!!) then I would point that out. |
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Spartan2 |
I agree with what you have said, but I think we lost the participation of the OP a long time ago. |
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Soledad |
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treehorn |
Sometimes communicating online is hard. And what you think you are stating as a plainly obvious fact might come across as more of an opinion. Or, someone might not see it as such a plainly obvious fact. |
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timatkn |
People change too. I remember a poster that ripped on anyone that used Kevlar, told stories like every Kevlar canoe he came across was “ripped to shreds”. Same poster basically called people idiots...paraphrasing...that went to Quetico...guy annoyed me to heck. Then I met him in person and he was a pretty cool guy...go figure. Oh and he also eventually bought a Kevlar canoe and only went to Quetico:) T |
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Spartan2 |
Tomcat: "Spartan2: "It seems to me, after many years of participation on this board, that most people are looking for information, but there are also a lot of ways to skin a possum, so to speak. Many of us are set in our ways with our equipment and while a good-natured suggestion (be it either fact or opinion) from someone else is usually accepted, a lot depends upon the manner in which it is offered. The "tone", if you will. Hi John, You seem like a very thoughtful person. And I also was reluctant to post what I did to you, but I looked at your photo in the gear thread of the backpacks, so I wondered if that was the impetus for your post. I had rotator cuff surgery in mid-March of 2000, and we went on an nine-day canoe trip in mid-July of that year. Up until that point I had been carrying a Duluth pack, and I decided that I needed a more comfortable pack to help my shoulders. One with a hip belt. I shopped around and bought an inexpensive frame pack; and that pack served as my buddy for the next dozen years. I used to argue when people would post that it was impossible to fit a frame pack into a canoe because we had no trouble doing that in our Bell Northwind. Yes, it was a bit harder for my husband to unload sometimes, but on the other hand, it kept me carrying a big, heavy pack for another dozen years. Everyone's situation is different. We never lined our packs with plastic, and we had a big rubber SeaLine bag that I also carried over many a portage. I loved that bag--it sat behind me in the canoe, upright, and I could lean back against it occasionally to rest my arthritic spine. We double-portaged and until our trip in 2012 when we had some help, I always made two carries with big packs. This isn't to say that the way we did it was 'correct', it was just the way we did it. And, as I said above, we had a wonderful time. :-) I am pleased that you think my comments before were helpful. There are many fine people on this site and some of them know a LOT more than I do about canoe-tripping. Some know less, too. But, like any "family", we get into squabbles and we have disagreements. Try to put up with us for awhile and you will get to love us (most of us, anyway.) ;-) |
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Blatz |
Tomcat: "No apology needed and I wasn't offended at all. Like someone said. There's more than one way to skin a cat ( not sure where that saying evolved from) I think many, myself included get very lazar focused on the way we do things, and what has worked for us. I like to share that info with others.Blatz: "You basically did what you're commenting about in regards to the plastic bag liners in packs. Just to be clear when you say all tripping situations. Are you referring to all BW tripping or ALL tripping situations? It seems to me that when people recommend things here it's assumed its BW related. Like many, I've used the thick plastic bags in the BW for close to 30 years and yes I have, and will continue to recommend that process. I'm sure there's some tripping situations elsewhere where another method would be more appropriate. Sayings it misleading, laughable, and false is an opinion, when I believe you where trying to make a factual statement." |
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x2jmorris |
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nctry |
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x2jmorris |
Spartan2: "YOU stirring the pot? Ben? Unthinkable. :-) Unless he subscribed and is getting bombarded with emails |
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nofish |
Tomcat: I think there can often times be a bit of confusion around what is fact and what is opinion. In your example above you could be talking about a bit of both. It is a fact that you carry a backpack and don't find it difficult to stow or lift out of your canoe. It may be someone elses opinion that the same exact backpack IS difficult to lift out of THEIR canoe. You and the other person are not the same people so what they find difficult you may find easy. What fits in your canoe may not fit in theres since it could be dependent on what other gear it needs to fit around. For example I do not find it difficult to reach things off the top shelf. However, I'm 6'4". Someone that is 5'4" probably wont share my definition of what is easy to reach. I would say when discussing gear performance there is very little in the way of facts. Facts are things like "Its is blue, it has 4 buckles, it is 12" x 12". Opinions are things like "its easy to lift, its comfortable, it fits well". I guess all that I'm saying is that something stated as a fact even with evidence to back it up may not always be a fact. I can back up all of my opinions with evidence that supports my opinion but that doesn't make it a fact. |
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butthead |
butthead |
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nctry |
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